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Why not a new islam?
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Constantine XI View Drop Down
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why not a new islam?
    Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 03:59
Originally posted by Mortaza

Constantine, how many women we have who wish to pray before men?
 
Women can enter and pray at any mosques but I did not see anywomen who pray before men. If there is not women section, they generally dont enter that mosque or they pray at the behind of alll men.
 
As I said before, If you say them, Pray before men. They will refuse this..
 
I dont know why are you insisting about this. For what reason? It will just irritiate both muslim men and women and I dont see any benefit at this..


I am not saying women should pray before men. I am saying they should be allowed to pray with them if they want that. I don't know how many women would want to, I would imagine the idea of praying beside one's male relatives would be attractive to a great many women. Until we do a survey, we won't really know for sure.

I am pursuing this topic as I see a principle in here that is of interest. That as the world changes, norms and expectations of humanity should be prepared to accommodate change also. This is the essence of renovation and evolution.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 06:40
If we could conclude would I be wrong in saying.
 
- Females can be Imams, Islamic scholors, leaders and teachers, there is nothing religously wrong about this infact its encouraged.
 
- A mixed congregation is not theologically "wrong", that in Mecca woman and men pray together side by side. However, to be practical and avoid any potential problems its been agreed for woman and men to pray seperately. (Although I don't understand why woman in a mosque would be a distraction, they're dressed modestly with a headscarf but anyway)
 
- If a Female was Imam or leading the Juma/Friday prayer and speach after, men can sit in the segregated room, while woman sit in the main hall as there is a female leading.
 
 
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 19:38
Originally posted by Costantine

But I am claiming that due to different circumstances, what worked in the medieval period is not necessarily best for the modern period.

Just because its not necessarily the best doesn't mean it isn't. People should niether blanket accept what our ancestors did, nor blanket reject them. Throwing out something because it is old is not always the best thing, sometimes people in the middle ages were spot on, and we should be following their example.

Originally posted by Bulldog

- A mixed congregation is not theologically "wrong", that in Mecca woman and men pray together side by side.

Can you source that from a reputatable website or a Hajji? Because I think that is wrong.

PS. Nope your right actually
...praying in the Grand Mosque in Makka, one of the few places where male and female worshippers intermingle...

http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=35489

Saudi's don't like it but we all know they are sexist bastards.
Well that makes me look like an idiot


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 14-Jun-2007 at 01:39
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Constantine XI View Drop Down
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 20:13
Originally posted by Omar

Just because its not necessarily the best doesn't mean it isn't. People should niether blanket accept what our ancestors did, nor blanket reject them. Throwing out something because it is old is not always the best thing, sometimes people in the middle ages were spot on, and we should be following their example.


Absolutely, hence why we discuss these things indepth to realise whether or not what worked in the past is still applicable today.
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Posts: 2120 		  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 00:06
Hun ain't there two separate issues here? We can imagine half the mosque for the female half for the male and a corner for those who what to intermingle.

The female imam thing is different as the imam is separated from the rest of the folk.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 01:45
Yes there are two separate issues here.

I was never arguing females couldn't be imam, but they would have to do it from the womens section, just as men have to from the mens section. I don't think there is any demand for this though.

I recall the scholar Hamza Yusuf saying that much of the segregation and male led tradition was not a custom of the Arabs in the 7th century. He though that this tradition had been picked up from the Romans and Persians following the conquest of the middle east.
Certainly the pagan arabs didn't give women any rights at all, but then again, the Yathibi women didn't have the reputation for giving their men rights either.
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 07:15
Why should there be a new Islam?
I've been reading the posts on this thread and nothing seems to indicate that there's something wrong with the religion itself.
IMHO, there's something about society, and that's another issue.
Here, the Romanian Orthodox Church is a very conservative institution. The priests are all male. There are still prejudices against women in our society, but that's about it.
When I go to a church (I'm an agnostic, I enter such places to visit them) I don't care about what the people who are in there to pray are doing. I keep my distance and try not to disturb them. I do this if I enter an Orthodox, Catholic, Reformate church or a mosque. Those are public places (some aren't but I don't go into those) and as long as I behave there is no problem with what I do, and I have no problem with what they (the faithful) are doing.
Those places are by definition areas where the believers come to ... whatever with their faith. I don't think there's something wrong with it.
The problem is what happens outside the holy places. Then it's not just about Islam, it's about all people, religious or not.
I have and will criticize, even vehemently, the fact that in some islamic countryes, people follow their religious preachers in their fight against other people. I don't like the fact that Islamic minorities in the west are turning into radical groups. There are also other religions representatives that are extremists, too, but what people see most are the muslims getting violent. When was the last time a muslim country embassy was attacked in a christian country?
From what I've read and what I've discussed here and with other people, Islam is not an intolerant religion per se. Intolerance and extremism comes when members of the society are using religion and not only.
Any religion, especially the monotheistic ones, can be considered intolerant since they all claim to hold the ultimate thruth, in the form of the God(s). But that's the fundamental part of any relgion, being it Christianity v. 1.0.0.0 (copyright Jesus Christ 0-33 AD) or Catholic Christianity  v. 5.0.0.1 (beta release - copyright Vatican 1999-2004). So it's not the Islam that should change, it's the muslims as in what muslims do. And that goes also for all the other people.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 07:36
We can imagine half the mosque for the female half for the male and a corner for those who what to intermingle.
 
who said you that women cannot enter men section?  In mosques, There is a place for women section. (Not men section)
 
Some mosques have not place for women(Mostly minor mosques.) and Women can enter and pray at that mosques too.
 
I mean noone will stop a female, If she try to pray at men section(!).(I should just add, most of men will not pray behind her. They would find another corner.)
 
 
If there is enough demand we can open a section for intermingle too but I am not aware of that demand.
 
The female imam thing is different as the imam is separated from the rest of the folk.
 
Er.. It is not seperated from rest of the folk. Problem at female imam is same with problem at other females too. Women cannot pray before men. Other than this, I dont know any problem with female imams.. As I said before, there is not any qualification for becoming imam.
 
 
 

 
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 07:50
Originally posted by Mortaza

who said you that women cannot enter men section?  In mosques, There is a place for women section. (Not men section)
 
Some mosques have not place for women(Mostly minor mosques.) and Women can enter and pray at that mosques too.
 
I mean noone will stop a female, If she try to pray at men section(!).
Err... thats not really true, especially during Juma. People do stop you regardless of sex from entering the wrong section.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 07:58
Uh, In Turkey, I did not see any female at juma..
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 08:12
Mortaza
Uh, In Turkey, I did not see any female at juma..
 
And you don't think that's wrong?
I don't see many in London either at juma and the main reason for this is some "MEN" living by an unwritten law, it's like its been outlawed for woman to come to Juma which I think is terrible as juma is for the community not just "men".


Edited by Bulldog - 14-Jun-2007 at 08:19
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 08:28
Forgive my ignorance. What is Juma? Is it the friday prayer?

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 08:51
Yeah, its the Friday prayer, its a congragational prayer around mid-day and a sermon is given, people can ask questions, talk about matters of the community, its usually a good atmosphere people shake hands and talk to each other even if they don't know each other and sometimes afterwards outside there is food bought by a generous person and so on.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 10:54
And you don't think that's wrong?
I don't see many in London either at juma and the main reason for this is some "MEN" living by an unwritten law, it's like its been outlawed for woman to come to Juma which I think is terrible as juma is for the community not just "men".
 
Bulldog dont waste my time with this nonsense. It is women who dont come and you accuse men, because women do not come to mosque..
 
What should men do? To force women?
 
It is also not outlawed. I am sure you dont know what are you talking..
 
Women generally does not comes mosque, If they have opportunity to pray at home.
 
They attend only ramazan prayings at mosques. This is their decision, not men.
 
At least, in Turkey..
 
 
 
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 13:22
Mortaza
Bulldog dont waste my time with this nonsense. It is women who dont come and you accuse men, because women do not come to mosque..
 
No, please don't waste me time with this typical "rhetoric", oh don't blame men its woman who don't want to come.
 
Woman do go to mosque's, however, alot of mosques built today specifically try to make sure there is no room for woman and try to make them pray outside the mosque.
 
I know for example, Bayezid mosque in Istanbul was built for both woman and men.
 
Friday prayers are for all people, however, forget friday some men try not to let woman in at all.
 
 
 
 
Mortaza
Women generally does not comes mosque, If they have opportunity to pray at home.
 
And why is that huh
It's been turned into a male only environment, scholors are male, teachers are male, leaders are male, everyone at Juma is male...oh I guess its all womans fault...
 
When I visited Turkiye, many woman attended mosque, also Alevi-Bektashi have no gender paranoia problems.
 
In Turkey, Muslim women gain expanded religious authority
 
 
 
Can woman perform Friday prayer?
 
 
 
It is clear that there is no need for "a new Islam", its society, backwards traditions and ignorance which is the problem, if Islam was properly embraced by these leaders they would be encouraging education, sciences, equality, human rights and so on and wouldn't be having palpatations over woman driving a car.


Edited by Bulldog - 14-Jun-2007 at 13:25
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 13:47
Bulldog, there is nothing stop women to enter any mosque she want. I never saw anyone stoped a women when she is entering a mosque.
also Alevi-Bektashi have no gender paranoia problems.
 
Alevis dont enter mosques man..
 
 
 
 
Women dont go mosques, because It is a know fact, Juma is only a must for men. If women wish, They can attend juma, but It is not a must for her.
 
Be sure, If It was not a must, you wont find much men too..
 
 
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 20:10
Originally posted by Mortaza

Uh, In Turkey, I did not see any female at juma..

I have noticed that at Turkish mosques* in Sydney actually. Different parts of the world have different customs about women going to juma. The mosque I go to is very multicultural and we get about 150 odd women coming, compared to about 700 men. There are plenty of Turkish men, but I never heard of any Turkish woman coming.

No, please don't waste me time with this typical "rhetoric", oh don't blame men its woman who don't want to come.

Woman do go to mosque's, however, alot of mosques built today specifically try to make sure there is no room for woman and try to make them pray outside the mosque.

Well, at my mosque the only reason for numerical descrepancy is that women don't want to go. There is plenty for room of women in the upstairs section of the main hall. Every friday the mens section overflows, only on Eid does the womens overflow.

*For some reason, Sydney has monocultural mosques. I don't know why.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 14-Jun-2007 at 20:12
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 04:37
I think this is something you just cannot generalise upon, but I'd say, Mortaza, that no women coming to the Juma, and no men forcefully stopping them is by no means proof they do not want to come. Showing up at a mosque and having several hundred men casting dissaproving looks at them and whispering to each other behind their back when they enter would be quite sufficient to keep them hesitant to go...

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I agree with Aelgifu
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 04:49

I think people continue to underestimate religious muslim women. They can protect their rights If They wanted..

They are not slaves as you think.. If They can enter democratic parties and effect that party much, If They can protest for their rights, I am sure they can also enter mosques If They want.
 
I am curious about this. what can we do? Even I agree with your wishes, what can we do? Force women and men for something they dont want?(Of course, If you show me, there is deman for this. My question become unnecessary.)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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