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Georgia:Russia has invaded and we are under attack

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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Georgia:Russia has invaded and we are under attack
    Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 19:53
Just heard on radio that Azerbaijan is pulling troops to Garabkh and Georgia borders, after declaring support to Gerogia.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 19:55
I invite the members to read this short article in order to better understand who is person behind this war.
 
 
November 19, 2007

Tsotne Bakuria - Four years ago, an ebullient Mikhail Saakashvili was swept into power as president of the Republic of Georgia powered by the PR dream, "The Rose Revolution." Today, he is hunkered down with a few advisers, after declaring a state of emergency, shutting down a major television station, cutting off the Internet and cell phones, tear gassing, beating women in the streets and arresting hundreds of protesters calling for his resignation. Defiant and discredited, Mr. Saakashvili vows to remain in office, whatever the cost.

How Mr. Saakashvili got to this point is a story of greed, corruption, paranoia and abuse of power. No one seriously believes he can hang on much longer — as 100,000 demonstrators filling the square in front of the Parliament building in the capital of Tbilisi chant, "Leave ... leave."

The young politician has deeply disappointed his former supporters, many of them jailed for "hooliganism" and other crimes against his iron-fisted regime.

It helps to understand the history of Georgia; a tiny country, strategically bordering Turkey, Russia and Iran. Mr. Saakashvili's predecessor, Eduard Sheveranadze, was a white-haired diplomat who won the respect of the West when the Berlin Wall fell and communism was replaced by the notion of a democratic country.

I was there the day "Shevy" fled the Parliament building, resigning from office rather than risk violence. No matter what else can be said of the man, he did not want the blood of innocent Georgians on his hands.

But what was promised never materialized. Mr. Saakashvili began by trashing the Constitution (under the guise of ferreting out corruption in government) and seemed to convey the notion that democracy was just another form of dictatorship. Still, the Bush administration ignored or refused to believe the stories coming out of Georgia; the torture of prison inmates, the human-rights abuses, the sad impoverishment of the country's majority. Blackouts, oil shortage, pensions unpaid, opposition crushed. One of my former teachers, Irakli Batiashvili, was arrested and jailed for no reason last year and has since lost 65 pounds and rots in a basement cell 4 feet long by 5 feet high, with no sunlight.

Recently, at the height of the public demonstration calling for Mr. Saakashvili's resignation, I watched the news reports from Georgia. I was never so proud of my countrymen. Their strong voices must be heard.

Americans, the opposition leaders pointed out, must support the Georgian people, not this mad man. They are demanding that election be held in a constitutional time frame. They are asking simply that the people be allowed to decide. They are asking for democracy — a choice.

Mr. Saakashvili's regime is now trying to prolong his current government by putting off elections until the end of 2008. This is unconstitutional. It's as if President Bush last year decided he quite liked the current Republican majority, and declared elections were unnecessary. It is unthinkable in American terms: Rep. Nancy Pelosi, California Democrat, tortured and jailed. Brian Williams sitting at the anchor desk, armed military cutting off the cameras. Ted Kennedy arrested for treason. Not to mention John Stewart or Cindy Sheehan.

Georgian jails are packed full with prisoners. At the same time, the president has been quoted as saying "there is no crime" in the country. One of the biggest crooks is Mr. Saakashvili's uncle, a nefarious character who lives in New York. He was arrested several years ago on charges of taking $200,000 worth of bribes. He publicly declared President Bush was "his best friend," a statement I'm sure raised eyebrows in the CIA and State Department. Mr. Saakashvili officially pardoned his uncle, who for the time being at least remains untouchable.

American taxpayers deposit $300 million into the Georgian budget every year. Instead of schools or hospitals, the money was used to build Mr. Saakashvili a presidential palace and recruit his Republican Guard, a private army.

The president dismissed the 100,000 demonstrators, calling them "garbage." It is hard to imagine that this man loves his country, or his people. If he did, he would make the concessions they ask and hold timely elections.

He has refused to open a dialogue with his opponents, described as a "loose coalition" and still controls Rustavi 2, the state-owned television station. In the opposite corner, is Imedi TV, owned by a Georgian billionaire now financing Mr. Saakashvili's opposition and Rupert Murdoch's media conglomerate, News Corp. (Mr. Saakashvili labeled Mr. Murdoch a "Russian agent.") They broadcast day and night, as the number of demonstrators swelled and the image of thousands of headlights streaming into the capital were replayed. Mr. Saakashvili pulled the plug.

What are the solutions? The United States, the only foreign country that supports this regime, must realize Mr. Saakashvili is more than willing to shed blood to hold onto his tenuous power. Long-term foreign policy in the Caucasus could be severely damaged if Mr. Saakashvili is allowed to remain in office. He has thumbed his nose at his own people, and at the American people, so sure of their blind support and trust. It was a very emotional week. I'm sure the demonstrators are exhausted from standing in the pouring rain, hoping their words could be heard.

What started small has become a national chorus: The president must resign.

Tsotne Bakuria is a former member of Parliament in Georgia, now living in Los Angeles. He is a member of "American-Georgian Democratic Society."
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 19:56
I am watching good old Saudi TV which cares less about what is happening there. All what I get and see is on the web and I look to both sides of the story.
 
Now, I didn't say georgians were angles, I said nobody can determines what has really happen in a couple of hours, there should be investigations, independent reporting and many other steps before one can judge anything.
 
What is certain is that there much more to the story than Ossetia or georgia, Saakashvili did a stupid thing thinking he would get away with the olympics and stuff and I will more than happy when he leaves the office he bamboozled 5 years ago. But Russia going after ukraine, that is something in its league and it is obvious that Russia aims at more than asserting peace in Ossetia.
 
 Anyway, good to see that our Armenian co-forumer are alive and well.
 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 20:06

The thing is that since most of the foreign news agancies are not present in the conflict area.

So, what they can do is rely on the other. Of course the main source to rely here would be CNN.
 
CNN is obviously broadcasting the Georgian view.
 
So, I invite the members again to take a look at some alternative explanations if they have time.
 
 
It's interesting the words which were said about the Georgian regime almost a year ago (please check the article I posted above) now this prediction is happenning:
 
What are the solutions? The United States, the only foreign country that supports this regime, must realize Mr. Saakashvili is more than willing to shed blood to hold onto his tenuous power. Long-term foreign policy in the Caucasus could be severely damaged if Mr. Saakashvili is allowed to remain in office. He has thumbed his nose at his own people, and at the American people, so sure of their blind support and trust.
 
 
 
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 20:08
In my opinion this war, that Georgia has started looks like to be a part of larger plan. Last weekend passed the ultimatum about Iran's nuclear program and Iran didn't stop that it. Israel prime minister resigned and US is sending two aircraft carrier groups to the Persian Gulf. South Caucasus is in the north of Iran is in the west of oil rich Caspian sea regions. This war is probably part of a plan to prevent Russia into intervening into possible war with Iran. Russia doesn't want to be fully involved in war with Georgia and therefore fights there with minimal forces. Russia might guess that it is a possible trap and want to avoid it.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 20:15
I think that Georgia wanted to do the same with Osetia what Russia did in Chechnia few years ago. I don't remember Russian over such behaviour in that time.
 
In my opinion West as well as Russia are being hypocryts and do what is profitable for them. Kosovo and Osetia are two similar examples and in each case behaviour of West and Russia is completely opposite. And the fact Russia didn't recognize Osetia's sovrenity is meaningless cause in fact they help them to achieve this.
Now Georgian president realized this war leads to Georgia's destruction and called Medviedev for peace talks. Now we will see if Russia wants to behave in civilized way and stop the war or are they going to destroy Georgia.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 20:22
There is some difference between Chechnia and the current Ossetian conflict.
Chechnia gained de facto independence after the first Chechen war.
 
If one remembers the second Chechen war started after the full scale invasion of Chechen militants in the Dagestan region of Russia. All the agreements in this regard were violated not by Russia, but by the Chechen authorities.
 
In the current case, however, Saakashvilli violated his own words and promises and attacked at night.
 
 
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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 20:25
Originally posted by Roberts

What is Turkey's government stance in this conflict, have they commented? Since the Turkey share border with Georgia and quite important gas pipeline goes through it.
 
Turkey is neutral(a little bit pro-Georgian maybe) and doesnt want any hostility in region(doesnt want anyone to hit her pipeline or railway)


Edited by erkut - 09-Aug-2008 at 20:27
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 20:29
What is Turkey's view on Abkhazian conflict given that there are many people of Abkhazian decent living in Turkey?
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 20:51

Originally posted by Roberts

Just heard on radio that Azerbaijan is pulling troops to Garabkh and Georgia borders, after declaring support to Gerogia

     I believe they had forces on the frontline with Karabagh since the "ceasefire" in 1994. They fire at the Armenian side every few days, and to my knowledge the Armenians have stopped bothering to fire back. But you are right, Azerbaijan became emboldened by Georgia's show of force. They have been saying for years now that they are going to resolve the Karabagh situation by military means. But more importantly, Azerbaijan has also claimed that it has the right to take parts of the Armenian Republic outside of Karabagh, including the capital Yerevan (yes, they actually said they have the right to take Yerevan, and then they expect Armenians to make territorial concessions in regards to Karabagh). This is a real threat considering Azerbaijan's military budget exceeds Armenia's total budget. As you can see, the Caucasus is pretty polarised.
 
 
As for Georgia, they are going to have their hands full if the Abkhazians aggressively pursue this conflict. I believe they already kicked Georgian soldiers out of the Kodori gorge, which was the only area in Abkhazia which had Georgian soldiers. I think a second front with the Abkhazians is too much for Georgia. Abkhazia is much more powerful than Ossetia, it has a much better economy and its population is armed to the teeth.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 20:58
Georgians attacked first in an area with thousands of Russian citizens. Thus, Russia's intervention is justifiable, if not legitimate.
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 21:02
Originally posted by Mortaza

 
I should also say, USA image is damaged becase of iraq. Just guess what would become russian image.
 
I don't think the Russian image will suffer that much, if at all? I can already see it being played out here in this forum! 
 
The spin is causing me a headache!
 
 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 21:14
Originally posted by Sarmat12

According to the Russian news agencies. Abkhazia attacked Georgian forces in order to assist its "Ossetian brothers."
The Georgian dictator got what he wanted. Unhappy

An elected president is NOT a dictator!

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 21:25

Plus, if you are saying that it is good for Russia to strike an area because there were Russians citizens there; then no country can be safe. Russia can attack Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Latvia. All of these justified since there are Russians citizens in here. That's not possible. That's not to be allowed. 

If you say that Russia will stop at Ossetia, I doubt it. They strike the most of Georgian cities by now with their missiles. 

I'm just glad the Georgians got a part of Spetznas down along with 40 tanks... 

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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 21:27
Originally posted by rider

Originally posted by Sarmat12

According to the Russian news agencies. Abkhazia attacked Georgian forces in order to assist its "Ossetian brothers."
The Georgian dictator got what he wanted. Unhappy

An elected president is NOT a dictator!

 
I agree. Unfortunately, many people believe statements like that are the verbatim truth, until it runs counter to their views! I imagine, if sombody said that about Mr. Putin or Mendev, the denials would be endless!
 
Again, rationality is taking a holiday! Rolling%20Eyes
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 21:34

Thanks for that. 

I imagine if someone called Putin a dictator, we'd get a message that informs us:

'Unfortunately, You have insulted the great personae of the Father of the Russian Nation' or something along those lines. 

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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 22:03
Your welcome.
 
Actually that particular accussation against Putin has already taken place before in the past, shortly followed by those defending him. Strangely, i recall at that time that both Pesidents of the US and Russia, by appearances, were getting along swimmingly well? Hhmmmmm...
 
The way to delegtimize an elected offical, and thereby any of their actions, i think... is by associating them with everything psychologically negative within a certain context of a wider written narattive, for the public's mass consumption? It seems to work very effective?
 
Bush hasn't been taken seriously for awhile. Now it remains to be seen, of the two Presidents... which one will rapidly lose international legitimacy by the use of such tactics? The real nitty gritty of the geopolitics, as far as the public is concerned, will come much later?
 
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 22:14
Originally posted by Panther

I agree. Unfortunately, many people believe statements like that are the verbatim truth, until it runs counter to their views! I imagine, if sombody said that about Mr. Putin or Mendev, the denials would be endless!
 
Oh, come on! Situation with democracy in Russia is discussed permanently in western press  and on the state levels. Check what McCain says. Even here in this forum Putin's regime was called dictatorship many times. In contrast Georgia today was called best democracy in postsoviet area by an American congressman if I am not mistaken, which is obviously not true. Georgian presidential elections were pretty much like that happened in Russia past 4-5 years but who cares?
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 22:23
Anton, due to my memory issues... i acknowledged that in the first sentence of my opening paragraph in the previous post of mine.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 22:23
Originally posted by rider

Plus, if you are saying that it is good for Russia to strike an area because there were Russians citizens there; then no country can be safe. Russia can attack Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Latvia. All of these justified since there are Russians citizens in here. That's not possible. That's not to be allowed. 

 
Having said this you admit that Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia and others could destroy large city and kill 1500 Russian citizens or Russian speakers living in their own territories within 24 hours.
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