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ranjithvnambiar
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Topic: Sanskrit and the people who spoke it? Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:18 |
@balochi you said dravidian facial features ... can you be more specific.. what are the features of dravidians..?
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:32 |
Here are the photos of some famous Tamils Dr.A.P.J.Abdul Kalam(former President of India) C.M.Annadurai one of the founders of the Dravidian Party DMK(Dravida Munnetta Kazhakam) Academy Award winning Music Director A.R.Rahman Famous mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujam Late Leader of Tamil militants of Srilanka velupillai Prabhakaran
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:37 |
S.Sivaraman a former communist Politician of Kerala
A.K.Balan (Power Minister of Kerala) Paloli Muhammed Kutty Minister for Local Administration Kerala They are all dravidians and some have dark skin.
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:47 |
Originally posted by Cryptic
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar
I dont know much about Shamanism. |
Shamanism is not a religion either, but a religous concept associated with hunter gather societies some herders and those with limited agriculture. Individual shamanistic religions are varied. As a reflection of its hunter gatherer roots, shamanism assigns spiritual qualities to animals and land features.
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar
As I told earlier Hinduism cannot be called a religion it is rather a culture with roots in Vedic Dharma or Sanathana Dharma. |
I am confused. If Hindusim is a cultural manifestation, what about trans cultural Hinduism such as the pre Islamic Hinduism in Malaysia, Cambodia and Indonesia and modern Hinduism in Bali?
Since even related cultures can vary greatly (espcially before unifiers such as railroads, mass education, radio and television), your statement seems to support Pakistani Shield's belief that Hinduism is a group of seperate, yet closely related religions like the native american religions.
Hinduism has probably incorperated some cultural traits as religous norms like Islam has done with Arab culture. Likewise, though Hinduism is not nearly as monolithic as the Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism), I think it is a unified religion.
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Hinduism of India and all its different sects are branched out from a common root ie Vedic religion and all different sects are based on a particular branch of a veda(mainly Rik, Yajur & Sama).This is what I tried to explain.It is not different cults or religions unified under single umbrella.I meant to say that all Hindus in India has common roots.They all believe in Atma(soul) & Param Artma(supreme soul/Brahman) and in Karma.They also believe that all other Gods/demigods are different manifestations of Brahman. And Balinese and others follow Agama Hindu Dharma.Only two Vedas(Rik & Yajur) reached there. As I told I will not be able to explain the whole concept through posts. If you want to know more about hinduism you may need to study yourself personally.
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 05:04 |
The Vedic religion had
many rituals like Agnicayana,Agnistoma,Agni hothra,Jyotishtoma,Purusha
Sookta and various others.
These rituals used to last
for several days out of which Agnicayana was the longest lasting for 12 days.
These rituals included
recitations of several Vedas,Upanishads and performances of severals Homams and
yagnas. Many of these activities are specifically assigned to a particular
clans of Brahmins.So these clans give more stress to the area of their
importance and they classified themselves as rik
vedis,Yajurvedis,Dwivedis,Trivedis ,Tripathi,Vajapeyis etc. when they migrated
to difefferent areas they took their traditions also with them.
But irrespective of their
area of specialisationsall Brahmin cvlans are able to performs small Homams and
rituals and yajnas eg: Ganapathy Homa,Bhagavat Seva etc and several other
rituals like Poojas & Thantras for various temple dieties.
The “Deva Bhasha”(divine
language) of all Hindus are Sanskrit.There are more than 80 major languages in
India.Irrespective of colocial language the language used for religious
performances and studies is Sanskrit through out India.
The common thing among the priests all over
India is that they recite and learn religious rituals and performances in
Sanskrit.Eve the Nambudiris of Kerala & Iyers of Tamilnadu recites &
performs & Chants during religious
performances in Sanskrit.
And mostly the three varnas other than sudras were well versed or familiar to Sanskrit.The
teaching language in gurukula paathashalas (ancient teaching centers)used to be
Sanskrit.Students were taught vedangas (Shiksha,Vyakarana,Chandass,Nirukta,Vikalpa
& Jyothisha) ,Puranas,Vedas partially (based on the Varna of the student) ,
all in sanskrit.Many classes in Sudras were also well versed in Sanskrit based
on their occupation.Eg:- The Viswakarma class used to be well versed in
Sanskrit because they needed to learn & refer Vasthu shastra & other
related texts for Town & Building Constructions.
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balochii
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Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 15:00 |
^ the pics you just posted of tamils above are dravdians, do you honestly think these guys can fit in Europe or or even Iran/Afghanistan, most of them would probably not even fit in pakistan. Dravdians are similar to austrolid in my opinion, ofcourse dravdians being in India they probably mixed with indo-aryans aswell, however they still maintain a lot austrolid features.
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lirelou
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Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 15:20 |
Wow, I can't pretend to have the knowledge of Indian culture, and here I include Pakistan as having its basis in Indian culture, but two thoughts occur. First, early India's culture was highly syncretic and adopted many cultural practices from earlier eras. Second, it traveled well, with peoples as far away as today's Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Hainan island adopting Indian culture. Contrast this cultural exportability with the Goan example, which left India with a hybrid people who, while spending several centuries as Portuguese, emerged in 1961 with their Indian cultural core intact, which facilitated their inclusion into India. with this syncretism and exportability in mind, it would make sense that Sanskrit traveled as well and as far as it did, even cutting accross genetic boundaries. Good luck in sorting out that history. By its very complexity, it would appear to require that all approaching the subject should do so with an open mind, leaving presumptions of modern 'nationality' behind.
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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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balochii
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Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 16:13 |
^ when you say sanskrit travelled, what do you mean? also the question is about origins of sanskrit and the people who spoke it. Indian nationalistics are very very very bias about any thing that happend in south asia, infact as pakistanis we should be more bias because technically all of this history took place in modern pakistan on our lands, rather then modern state of india, however we are open minded about it. We listen to what western historian, aswell as other historians have to say. From what most pakistanis have read, we tend to agree with the open minded western historians, rather then some nationalistic historian sitting in India.
I personally think Pakistani historians and archaeologists should lead the way in discussing these issues, rather then some guy sitting in Mumbai or Calcutta. We are much more in inheritors of any history then took on pakistani land, rather then some guy sitting in Calcutta or Tamil nadu
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PakistaniShield
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Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 18:10 |
Originally posted by lirelou
Wow, I can't pretend to have the knowledge of Indian culture, and here I include Pakistan as having its basis in Indian culture, but two thoughts occur. First, early India's culture was highly syncretic and adopted many cultural practices from earlier eras. Second, it traveled well, with peoples as far away as today's Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Hainan island adopting Indian culture. Contrast this cultural exportability with the Goan example, which left India with a hybrid people who, while spending several centuries as Portuguese, emerged in 1961 with their Indian cultural core intact, which facilitated their inclusion into India. with this syncretism and exportability in mind, it would make sense that Sanskrit traveled as well and as far as it did, even cutting accross genetic boundaries. Good luck in sorting out that history. By its very complexity, it would appear to require that all approaching the subject should do so with an open mind, leaving presumptions of modern 'nationality' behind. |
How would Pakistani history have it's basis in India when Pakistan is the home of the Indus Vedic and other civilizations? Imagine if Pakistan had today gone by the name India or Industan as Alice Albinia suggested. People would have a completely different view. It's sad how names influence peoples thinking
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lirelou
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 00:09 |
Shield: in re your: "How would Pakistani history have it's basis in India when Pakistan is the home of the Indus Vedic and other civilizations?"
Pakistan is a modern state. Even taking your word that the present state of Pakistan is the home of those civilizations, by its very nature as a Muslim state, it is a later construct. India is not a single people, nor is it's history confined to a single modern state. And it is certainly not a single religion. More than anything else, India is a culture shared by several South Asian peoples and states, which once spread as far afield as the Cham states (Indrapura, Amaravati, Vijaya, Kauthara, Panduranga) of present day Vietnam. I would say that from a western perspective, it is termed "Indian" and my use of Pakistan was merely meant to underscore the common cultural and historical roots of both modern India and Pakistan. However, even the Vietnamese refer to Indians from anywhere (Sri Lanka, Singapore, India, or Pakistan) as 'An Do" people, so it is not just a western usage. If it you prefer, we could agree that Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh have their roots in the Indian subcontinent. My point was that at one time, it had spread beyond the subcontinent.
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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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PakistaniShield
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 00:57 |
No I do not agree. Does the origin of Hitler and the Nazi movement have roots in western Europe? Or strictly Germany?
Does the rise of the Mongol empire and Genghis Khan have it's roots in all of East Asia or Mongolia specific?
This is just another attempt to steal history by calling it "shared."
Pakistan is a landmass and direct inheritor of the Indus Civilizations as much as modern Italy is direct inheritor of ancient Roman civilization as opposed to all of Southern Europe whom do not question Italy's inheritance as they clearly know who it belongs to.
besides if Pakistan were to change it's name tomorrow would all it's history cease to exist simply due to it's name change?
I know we've been through this many times, but false claims over other histories is a common problem faced by many countries.
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PakistaniShield
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 01:01 |
Originally posted by lirelou
Even taking your word that the present state of Pakistan is the home of those civilizations
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How could anyone question where the indus river is or where the main cities of the IVC are found? Don't take my word for it. Look it up.
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 03:10 |
Dear balochi
& pakistani shield who is trying to be nationalistic here….? You are
claiming the Ownership of a
civilization & culture which you
have nothing to link with or yyou know nothing about. The vedic religion is
still; existing and German Indologists like Frits Staal are visiting differet
parts of India to see the age old vedic rituals being performed and it is under
his initiative the “Agnicayana” (I have posted atopic earlier) was performed.
Panini didn’t
invent Sanskrit.He codified it and gave a grammatical structure.And all the
literatures related to Vedic had already been composed and even written down
much much before Panini. The total area covered by Pakistan today is .7 million
square kilometers where as the Arya varta which was the cradle of the
civilization was more than 2.5 million square kilometers and all the vedic
literature originated on the banks of Saraswati of course it contains land that
is in present day Pakistan. .Arya varta
spanned almost all over North India.Eastern end being Bihar & western end
being Indus.In North Iit included parts of modern day Tibet & Afganistan.It
included present day
Haryana,Kashmir,Punjab,Himachalpradesh,Nepal,Uttarpradesh,Parts of
Bihar,Madhya Pradesh,Maharashtra,Parts of Karnataka,Rajastan,Gujarat &
PakistanI have posted a map of Arya varta in an earlier tread. So technically
it was not confined only to the lands which is called as Present day Pakistan.
Bhrigus,Viswamitras,Angirasses,Vasishtas,Grthasamadhas,Athris,Sounakas,kanva,Goutamas,Mareechas
are the priestly clans who composed the Vedas.And all these rishi families were
priests of Puru especially the Bharatha clan.They belonged to different parts
of India.And Vedas are known to have
been composed at places which are
presently called Haryana & Himachal pradesh.
Krishna
Dwaipayana or veda vyasa meaning the summariser of Veda was known to belong to
Uttar Pradesh of Modern India.Parashara who was the father of Veda vyasa
belonged to Karnataka ie South India. Others vedic Rishis Vaisampayana,Yajnavalkya
etc were not from what is presently Pakistan.
The list of
Mathematicians ,Astronomers and Grammarians of
Ancient India is given below in Chronological order.Among them Arya
Bhata,Bhaskara1 & Bhaskara2 are kown to Hail from Kerala.
Apasthamba
of 1100BC ,
Baudhayana
800BC ,
Manava
750BC ,
Panini
of 400BC,(He belonged to what is presently Pakistan)
Badra
Bahu 300BC,
Pingala
who wrote Chandas Sutra in 200BC,
Umaswati
150BC a Jaina Scholar who wrote Tattwarthadhigama-Sutra
Bhashya,
Jaina Works ie sankhyana & other works including permutation &
combinations which resulted in the formation Meru Prasthara or todays Pascal
triangle dated from 300BC –400AD ,
Bakhisli
Manuscripts placed not later than 450BC
Classical
period starting with
Aryabhata
I (476- 550AD) who was influenced by ‘Surya Siddhanta’ of unknown author
written 400AD.Aryabhata’s famous wok is Aryabhatiya.
Varaha
Mihira(505-587AD)
Brahmagupta(598-668AD)
,
Bhaskara
I (600-680AD) ,
Lalla
(720-790 AD) ,
Govinda
Swami(800-860AD) ,
Sankara
Narayana(840-900AD) ,
Mahavira(approx.850AD)
,
Prthudakasvami(830-890AD)
,
Sridhara
(870-930AD) ,
AryabhataII
(920-1000AD) ,
Vijayanandi
(940-1010AD) ,
Sripathi
(1010-1066AD) ,
Bhaskara
II (1114AD-1185AD)
Citing
one Panini You are claiming the ownership of a civilization which spanned in 5
different countries(namelyAfganistan,Pakistan,India,Nepal & Tibet)
Who
is Biased here and who is not..?
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 03:16 |
Originally posted by balochii
^ the pics you just posted of tamils above are dravdians, do you honestly think these guys can fit in Europe or or even Iran/Afghanistan, most of them would probably not even fit in pakistan. Dravdians are similar to austrolid in my opinion, ofcourse dravdians being in India they probably mixed with indo-aryans aswell, however they still maintain a lot austrolid features. |
India has diffferent races of people living in it.And Aryan and Dravidian as per our understanding are not races. You seem to use the word "Draviidian" in racial sense.We have fair skinned & dark skinned people all over India but we dont classify them as Aryans & Dravidians. Dravidian is a language family and different races of people belonging to South India speaks Dravidian languages. What are you leading into..? A racial superiority debate..?
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 03:27 |
Originally posted by PakistaniShield
Originally posted by lirelou
Even taking your word that the present state of Pakistan is the home of those civilizations
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How could anyone question where the indus river is or where the main cities of the IVC are found? Don't take my word for it. Look it up.
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Indus is not the only river that has Archaeological remains of cities.Nearly 414 Archaeological sites were spotted on the banks of Gaggar-Hakra river(Rigvedic Saraswati) which dried up in 1900Bc Lothal is a Harappan city of Gujarat in Sabarmati delta Lothal has the worlds firts dock dating back to 2500BC.Surkotaa,Rangpur,Kuntasi,rojdi,Prtbhas patan are all archaeological remains of towns and cities in present day gujarat.Kalibangan is a preharappan city on the banks of Gaggar Hakra,Dholavira,Kot Chiji,Balathal,Banawali,Farmana,Rakhigarhi etc are all on the banks of Saraswati.Apart from this several new archaeological sites are found out in Haryana and studies are in progress there. But the first cities to be excavated were on thebanks of Indus like Harappa & Moenjodaroso the importance.It doesnt indicate that the civilization belonged to Pakistan as you claim..
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 04:33 |
The photos that I have posted in the other tread of some famous malayalis and Tamils, it may resemble europeans but they are all dravidians.Whether i choose or not they are all dravidians. For eg:- Vijay Nambiar , Shivshankar Menon,K.G.Balakrishnan,Mammootty,Shashi Tharoor all are Dravidians and belong to the southernmost state of India ie Kerala.The photos are given below [/QUOTE]
What about these Dravidians..? they are all from kerala & speak malayalam
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 04:41 |
Please find the link to the details of genetical studies conducted on Nairs of kerala South India(Surnames Nambiar ,Menon,Pillai,Kurup,Unnithan etc belong to nair community).I too am a nair. The results indicate that they are indegenous to India. The photos attached above ie that of Vijay nambiar,Shivshankar Menon,Shashii Tharoor are all Nairs
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 07:02 |
Genetic studies about M-17 origin
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 07:14 |
Genetical studies by dr.peter.A.Underhill
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 07:18 |
Study by Kivislid,Underhill et al A counter-clockwise northern route of the Y-chromosome haplogroup N from Southeast Asia towards Europe.
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