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Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?

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ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?
    Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:18
@balochi you said dravidian facial features ... can you be more specific.. 
what are the features of dravidians..?

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:32
Here are the photos of some famous Tamils
Dr.A.P.J.Abdul Kalam(former President of India)

C.M.Annadurai one of the founders of the Dravidian Party DMK(Dravida Munnetta Kazhakam)

Academy Award winning Music Director A.R.Rahman

Famous mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujam

Late Leader of Tamil militants of Srilanka velupillai Prabhakaran

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:37
S.Sivaraman a former communist Politician of Kerala

A.K.Balan (Power Minister of Kerala)

Paloli Muhammed Kutty Minister for Local Administration Kerala

They are all dravidians and some have dark skin.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 03:47
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

I dont know much about Shamanism.
 
Shamanism is not a religion either, but a religous concept associated with hunter gather societies some herders and those with limited agriculture. Individual shamanistic religions are varied.  As a reflection of its hunter gatherer roots, shamanism assigns spiritual qualities to animals and land features.
 
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

As I told earlier Hinduism cannot be called a religion it is rather a culture with roots in Vedic Dharma or Sanathana Dharma.
I am confused.  If Hindusim is a cultural manifestation, what about trans cultural Hinduism such as the pre Islamic Hinduism in Malaysia, Cambodia and Indonesia and modern Hinduism in Bali?
 
Since even related cultures can vary greatly (espcially before unifiers such as railroads, mass education, radio and television), your statement seems to support Pakistani Shield's belief that Hinduism is a group of seperate, yet closely related religions like the native american religions. 
 
Hinduism has probably incorperated some cultural traits as religous norms like Islam has done with Arab culture.  Likewise, though Hinduism is not nearly as monolithic as the Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism), I think it is a unified religion.
 
 
 
Hinduism of India and all its different sects are branched out from a common root ie Vedic religion and all different sects are based on a particular branch of a veda(mainly Rik, Yajur & Sama).This is what I tried to explain.It is not different cults or religions unified under single umbrella.I meant to say that all Hindus in India has common roots.They all believe in Atma(soul) & Param Artma(supreme soul/Brahman) and in Karma.They also believe that all other Gods/demigods are different manifestations of Brahman.
And Balinese and others follow Agama Hindu Dharma.Only two Vedas(Rik & Yajur) reached there.
As I told I will not be able to explain the whole concept through posts.
If you want to know more about hinduism you may need to study yourself personally.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 05:04

 

The Vedic religion had many rituals like Agnicayana,Agnistoma,Agni hothra,Jyotishtoma,Purusha Sookta  and various others.

These rituals used to last for several days out of which Agnicayana was the longest lasting for 12 days.

These rituals included recitations of several Vedas,Upanishads and performances of severals Homams and yagnas. Many of these activities are specifically assigned to a particular clans of Brahmins.So these clans give more stress to the area of their importance and they classified themselves as rik vedis,Yajurvedis,Dwivedis,Trivedis ,Tripathi,Vajapeyis etc. when they migrated to difefferent areas they took their traditions also with them.

But irrespective of their area of specialisationsall Brahmin cvlans are able to performs small Homams and rituals and yajnas eg: Ganapathy Homa,Bhagavat Seva etc and several other rituals like Poojas & Thantras for various temple dieties.

The “Deva Bhasha”(divine language) of all Hindus are Sanskrit.There are more than 80 major languages in India.Irrespective of colocial language the language used for religious performances and studies is Sanskrit through out India.

The  common thing among the priests all over India is that they recite and learn religious rituals and performances in Sanskrit.Eve the Nambudiris of Kerala & Iyers of Tamilnadu recites & performs & Chants during religious  performances in Sanskrit.

 

And mostly the three varnas other than  sudras were well versed or familiar to Sanskrit.The teaching language in gurukula paathashalas (ancient teaching centers)used to be Sanskrit.Students were taught vedangas (Shiksha,Vyakarana,Chandass,Nirukta,Vikalpa & Jyothisha) ,Puranas,Vedas partially (based on the Varna of the student) , all in sanskrit.Many classes in Sudras were also well versed in Sanskrit based on their occupation.Eg:- The Viswakarma class used to be well versed in Sanskrit because they needed to learn & refer Vasthu shastra & other related texts for Town & Building Constructions.
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 15:00
^ the pics you just posted of tamils above are dravdians, do you honestly think these guys can fit in Europe or or even Iran/Afghanistan, most of them would probably not even fit in pakistan. Dravdians are similar to austrolid in my opinion, ofcourse dravdians being in India they probably mixed with indo-aryans aswell, however they still maintain a lot austrolid features.
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 15:20
Wow, I can't pretend to have the knowledge of Indian culture, and here I include Pakistan as having its basis in Indian culture, but two thoughts occur. First, early India's culture was highly syncretic and adopted many cultural practices from earlier eras. Second, it traveled well, with peoples as far away as today's Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Hainan island adopting Indian culture. Contrast this cultural exportability with the Goan example, which left India with a hybrid people who, while spending several centuries as Portuguese, emerged in 1961 with their Indian cultural core intact, which facilitated their inclusion into India. with this syncretism and exportability in mind, it would make sense that Sanskrit traveled as well and as far as it did, even cutting accross genetic boundaries.  Good luck in sorting out that history. By its very complexity, it would appear to require that all approaching the subject should do so with an open mind, leaving presumptions of modern 'nationality' behind.
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 16:13
^ when you say sanskrit travelled, what do you mean? also the question is about origins of sanskrit and the people who spoke it. Indian nationalistics are very very very bias about any thing that happend in south asia, infact as pakistanis we should be more bias because technically all of this history took place in modern pakistan on our lands, rather then modern state of india, however we are open minded about it. We listen to what western historian, aswell as other historians have to say. From what most pakistanis have read, we tend to agree with the open minded western historians, rather then some nationalistic historian sitting in India.
 
I personally think Pakistani historians and archaeologists should lead the way in discussing these issues, rather then some guy sitting in Mumbai or Calcutta. We are much more in inheritors of any history then took on pakistani land, rather then some guy sitting in Calcutta or Tamil nadu
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2010 at 18:10

Originally posted by lirelou

Wow, I can't pretend to have the knowledge of Indian culture, and here I include Pakistan as having its basis in Indian culture, but two thoughts occur. First, early India's culture was highly syncretic and adopted many cultural practices from earlier eras. Second, it traveled well, with peoples as far away as today's Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Hainan island adopting Indian culture. Contrast this cultural exportability with the Goan example, which left India with a hybrid people who, while spending several centuries as Portuguese, emerged in 1961 with their Indian cultural core intact, which facilitated their inclusion into India. with this syncretism and exportability in mind, it would make sense that Sanskrit traveled as well and as far as it did, even cutting accross genetic boundaries.  Good luck in sorting out that history. By its very complexity, it would appear to require that all approaching the subject should do so with an open mind, leaving presumptions of modern 'nationality' behind.


How would Pakistani history have it's basis in India when Pakistan is the home of the Indus Vedic and other civilizations?  Imagine if Pakistan had today gone by the name India or Industan as Alice Albinia suggested. People would have a completely different view. It's sad how names influence peoples thinking

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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 00:09
Shield:  in re your:  "How would Pakistani history have it's basis in India when Pakistan is the home of the Indus Vedic and other civilizations?"

Pakistan is a modern state. Even taking your word that the present state of Pakistan is the home of those civilizations, by its very nature as a Muslim state, it is a later construct. India is not a single people, nor is it's history confined to a single modern state. And it is certainly not a single religion. More than anything else, India is a culture shared by several South Asian peoples and states, which once spread as far afield as the Cham states (Indrapura, Amaravati, Vijaya, Kauthara, Panduranga) of present day Vietnam. I would say that from a western perspective, it is termed "Indian" and my use of Pakistan was merely meant to underscore the common cultural and historical roots of both modern India and Pakistan. However, even the Vietnamese refer to Indians from anywhere (Sri Lanka, Singapore, India, or Pakistan) as 'An Do" people, so it is not just a western usage. If it you prefer, we could agree that Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh have their roots in the Indian subcontinent. My point was that at one time, it had spread beyond the subcontinent.
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 00:57
No I do not agree. Does the origin of Hitler and the Nazi movement have roots in western Europe? Or strictly Germany?

Does the rise of the Mongol empire and Genghis Khan have it's roots in all of East Asia or Mongolia specific?

This is just another attempt to steal history by calling it "shared."

Pakistan is a landmass and direct inheritor of the Indus Civilizations as much as modern Italy is direct inheritor of ancient Roman civilization as opposed to all of Southern Europe whom do not question Italy's inheritance as they clearly know who it belongs to.

besides if Pakistan were to change it's name tomorrow would all it's history cease to exist simply due to it's name change?

I know we've been through this many times, but false claims over other histories is a common problem faced by many countries. 
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 01:01
Originally posted by lirelou

Even taking your word that the present state of Pakistan is the home of those civilizations


How could anyone question where the indus river is or where the main cities of the IVC are found? Don't take my word for it. Look it up.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 03:10

Dear balochi & pakistani shield who is trying to be nationalistic here….? You are claiming the Ownership  of a civilization & culture  which you have nothing to link with or yyou know nothing about. The vedic religion is still; existing and German Indologists like Frits Staal are visiting differet parts of India to see the age old vedic rituals being performed and it is under his initiative the “Agnicayana” (I have posted atopic earlier) was performed.

Panini didn’t invent Sanskrit.He codified it and gave a grammatical structure.And all the literatures related to Vedic had already been composed and even written down much much before Panini. The total area covered by Pakistan today is .7 million square kilometers where as the Arya varta which was the cradle of the civilization was more than 2.5 million square kilometers and all the vedic literature originated on the banks of Saraswati of course it contains land that is in present day Pakistan.  .Arya varta spanned almost all over North India.Eastern end being Bihar & western end being Indus.In North Iit included parts of modern day Tibet & Afganistan.It included present day  Haryana,Kashmir,Punjab,Himachalpradesh,Nepal,Uttarpradesh,Parts of Bihar,Madhya Pradesh,Maharashtra,Parts of Karnataka,Rajastan,Gujarat & PakistanI have posted a map of Arya varta in an earlier tread. So technically it was not confined only to the lands which is called as Present day Pakistan.

Bhrigus,Viswamitras,Angirasses,Vasishtas,Grthasamadhas,Athris,Sounakas,kanva,Goutamas,Mareechas are the priestly clans who composed the Vedas.And all these rishi families were priests of Puru especially the Bharatha clan.They belonged to different parts of  India.And Vedas are known to have been composed  at places which are presently called Haryana & Himachal pradesh.

Krishna Dwaipayana or veda vyasa meaning the summariser of Veda was known to belong to Uttar Pradesh of Modern India.Parashara who was the father of Veda vyasa belonged to Karnataka ie South India. Others vedic Rishis Vaisampayana,Yajnavalkya etc were not from what is presently Pakistan.

The list of Mathematicians ,Astronomers and Grammarians of  Ancient India is given below in Chronological order.Among them Arya Bhata,Bhaskara1 & Bhaskara2 are kown to Hail from Kerala.

Apasthamba of 1100BC ,

Baudhayana 800BC  ,

Manava 750BC ,

Panini of 400BC,(He belonged to what is presently Pakistan)

Badra Bahu 300BC,

Pingala who wrote Chandas Sutra in 200BC,

Umaswati 150BC a Jaina Scholar who wrote Tattwarthadhigama-Sutra Bhashya, Jaina Works ie sankhyana & other works including permutation & combinations which resulted in the formation Meru Prasthara or todays Pascal triangle  dated from 300BC –400AD ,

Bakhisli Manuscripts placed not later than 450BC

Classical period starting with

Aryabhata I (476- 550AD) who was influenced by ‘Surya Siddhanta’ of unknown author written 400AD.Aryabhata’s famous wok is Aryabhatiya.

Varaha Mihira(505-587AD)

Brahmagupta(598-668AD) ,

Bhaskara I (600-680AD) ,

Lalla (720-790 AD) ,

Govinda Swami(800-860AD) ,

Sankara Narayana(840-900AD) ,

Mahavira(approx.850AD) ,

Prthudakasvami(830-890AD) ,

Sridhara (870-930AD) ,

AryabhataII (920-1000AD) ,

Vijayanandi (940-1010AD) ,

Sripathi (1010-1066AD) ,

Bhaskara II (1114AD-1185AD)

 

Citing one Panini You are claiming the ownership of a civilization which spanned in 5 different countries(namelyAfganistan,Pakistan,India,Nepal & Tibet)

 

Who is Biased here and who is not..?

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 03:16
Originally posted by balochii

^ the pics you just posted of tamils above are dravdians, do you honestly think these guys can fit in Europe or or even Iran/Afghanistan, most of them would probably not even fit in pakistan. Dravdians are similar to austrolid in my opinion, ofcourse dravdians being in India they probably mixed with indo-aryans aswell, however they still maintain a lot austrolid features.

India has diffferent races of people living in it.And Aryan and Dravidian as per our understanding are not races.
You seem to use the word "Draviidian" in racial sense.We have fair skinned & dark skinned people all over India but we dont classify them as Aryans & Dravidians.
Dravidian is a language family and different races of people belonging to South India speaks Dravidian languages.
What are you leading into..? A racial superiority debate..?
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 03:27
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by lirelou

Even taking your word that the present state of Pakistan is the home of those civilizations


How could anyone question where the indus river is or where the main cities of the IVC are found? Don't take my word for it. Look it up.

Indus is not the only river that has Archaeological remains of cities.Nearly 414 Archaeological sites were spotted on the banks of Gaggar-Hakra river(Rigvedic Saraswati) which dried up in 1900Bc
Lothal is a Harappan city of Gujarat in Sabarmati delta Lothal has the worlds firts dock dating back to 2500BC.Surkotaa,Rangpur,Kuntasi,rojdi,Prtbhas patan are all archaeological remains of towns and cities in present day gujarat.Kalibangan is a preharappan city on the banks of Gaggar Hakra,Dholavira,Kot Chiji,Balathal,Banawali,Farmana,Rakhigarhi etc are all on the banks of Saraswati.Apart from this several new archaeological sites are found out in Haryana and studies are in progress there.
But the first cities to be excavated were on thebanks of Indus like Harappa & Moenjodaroso the importance.It doesnt indicate that the civilization belonged to Pakistan as you claim..
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 04:33
The photos that I have posted in the other tread of some famous malayalis and Tamils, it may resemble europeans but they are all dravidians.Whether i choose or not they are all dravidians.
For eg:- Vijay Nambiar , Shivshankar Menon,K.G.Balakrishnan,Mammootty,Shashi Tharoor all are Dravidians and belong to the southernmost state of India ie Kerala.The photos are given below





[/QUOTE]

What about these Dravidians..? they are all from kerala & speak malayalam
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 04:41
Please find the link to the details of genetical studies conducted on Nairs of kerala  South India(Surnames Nambiar ,Menon,Pillai,Kurup,Unnithan etc belong to nair community).I too am a nair.
The results indicate that they are indegenous to India.
The photos attached above ie that of Vijay nambiar,Shivshankar Menon,Shashii Tharoor are all Nairs

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 07:02
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 07:14
Genetical studies by dr.peter.A.Underhill

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2010 at 07:18
Study by Kivislid,Underhill et al

A counter-clockwise northern route of the Y-chromosome haplogroup N from Southeast Asia towards Europe.


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