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Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?
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PakistaniShield View Drop Down
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Posts: 251 		  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sanskrit and the people who spoke it?
    Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 17:30
LOL it seems Balochiis point is only being clarified here.  If everything must have an "indian origin" there really is no point arguing.

The domestication of the horse can be found through out the world. The only "scholars" who deny the Aryan migration are pseudoscientists who claim everything to be "Hindu" or "Indian" origin.

Next thing we'll be hearing is the Spanish and Portuguese languages  were brought into Europe from South America  by the Hispanics.

And they'll probably use European haplogroups in certain hispanic populations to support the theory that the Spanish and Portuguese migrated from South America across the Atlantic.

 Seriously some people really need to grow up.....


Edited by PakistaniShield - 01-Sep-2010 at 17:43
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Posts: 251 		  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 17:40
 WOW! Are you Commies? Because Jawaharlal Nehru, the father of modern Hindu nationalism and utopia about Indian originality of Aryan civilization, had a leftist ideas. 
I`m not sure about your next conclusion. Aryan invasion in India 1500 BC is out of any question, if we talking about world`s (and seriuos) historic science.
Why are you not proud of your original culture of Mohenjo-daro and Harappa, which was really amazing but destroyed from Aryans? They left mostly their language in North India, but borrowed almost all from local culture. Because this pre-Aryan people was a Dravidian and speak some kind of Dravidian language? Modern Indians also have over 50 % genes of this ancient population.
 

There is no proof the Harrappan civilization was dravidian, nobody knows the exact language or ethnicity of these peoples. The Dravidian theory is strongly plausible, but yet to be proven.

The non-Indo-European, non-Dravidian, non-Sino-Tibetian languages spoken in parts of India and Pakistan such as language isolates could suggest that the region was diverse with various populations prior to Aryan domination.

Even Europe was diverse with ancient balkan and Finno-Ugric languages and this can be seen by the the existence of modern languages such as Basque, Hungarian, Estonian, Finnish and other smaller pockets of non-IE languages.

There is actually a book that has been released covering the history of pre-IE Europe also called by many "old Europe"




Edited by PakistaniShield - 01-Sep-2010 at 17:42
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 04:34
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

LOL it seems Balochiis point is only being clarified here.  If everything must have an "indian origin" there really is no point arguing.

The domestication of the horse can be found through out the world. The only "scholars" who deny the Aryan migration are pseudoscientists who claim everything to be "Hindu" or "Indian" origin.

Next thing we'll be hearing is the Spanish and Portuguese languages  were brought into Europe from South America  by the Hispanics.

And they'll probably use European haplogroups in certain hispanic populations to support the theory that the Spanish and Portuguese migrated from South America across the Atlantic.

 Seriously some people really need to grow up.....
Good to know that you are thinking about growing up

It was proposed by many of the so called scholars and linguists that Horse was brought to India by migrating aryans.That has very well been proved false.
Apart from that they also claimed that animal husbandry, cultivation and religious rituals like fire rituals and others were brought to Indus saraswati valley by migrating aryans.All these claims had proved false.Archaeology had proved that Indus-saraswati people and even Mehr garh people were familiar with cultivation and animal husbandry.
And AMT also attributes the whole of Rigveda and its rituals and its gods to migrating Aryans.
Butthe Fire altars of Kalibangan(2700BC) & those of Lothal(2300BC) which dated a millenium before the so called migration has proved other way.
And the the Linga, Pashupati(shiva) idols and Fertility goddesses(lakshmi) of Moenjodaro are purely Hindus gods and goddesses and are worshipped today also.
Who says Indus-Saraswati civilization is dravidian.Toill date there is no proof available saying Indus-Saraswati people spoke dravidian.
And the groups which you are indicating as descendents of Indus-Saraswati peopleare very micro groups as compared to the span of the Civilization.
The Indus-Saraswati civilization spanned from Balochistan to Central karnataka of South India , approximately 2 billion square kilometres.And in the peak The civilization is estimated to have a population of 20 million. And due to natural calamities at various periods they had migrated to other river banks.
Major rivers which contained the civilization are kknown to be Sapta sindhu(seven rivers of North west of the south asian subcontinent)including the Indus & rigvedic saraswati which dried up around 1900BC.Majority of Nadi stuthis of Rigveda which is composed in vedic sanskrit is about only saraswati which dried up in 1900BC ie 200-400 years before the so called migration.Apart from that  sabarnmati delat Rann of Kutch ,Godavari & Gangertic plains.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 04:38
Pashu pati or proto shivea of Moenjodaro

Lord Shiva
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 07:58

The Pashupati Idol is positioned in Advanced tantric yoga posture of hatha yoga indicating harappan people knew about yoga This is purely indicating that thantra and yoga was notintroduced to them by some invaders/migrants.Today also Hindu Sanyasins practice yoga .

Shiva is till date worshipped as an ascetic  and the posture also has not changed..He is still called as Pashupati and is associated with Antlers ,Tiger,Bull & snakes.The same diety which Harappans wotrshipped 5000years ago is still being worshipped by Hindus in India today also.Apart from this shiva is worshipped in Linga form also.There are 12 very famous ancient temples in India where Shiva is worshipped as linga ,southern most being Rameswaram inTamilnadu.

According to early AIT proponents everything  like Yoga ,Tantra,Vedas ,Upanishads,dieties and all the religio-philosophical thoughts that hindus follow today were brought to India by the Invading  Aryans.But Archaeology had proved it the other way.Nadistuthi in Rigveda is specifically speaking about Saraswati which is located on the western border of present day Rajastan.This river only has around 414 archaeological sites on its bank on either sides dating back to pre-harappan periods.

The Kalibangan site on Saraswati bank has several fire altars prepared in the same pattern as fire altars used for agnicayana & agnistoma.Lothal also has several fire altars.Archaeologists had attested these.What were these fire altars doing here in 2700BC if the culture and religion were introduced to Indus and saraswati people by some invadersthat too 1000 years before the invasion or migration happening.

And how can one expect an invader/migrant to write/praise about a river which dried up some 400 years before his/her migration to that area.

And Indra, Mitra, Agni,Vishnu,Rudra and other deities are worshipped and are paid oblations through fire rituals only.so In Kalibangan& Lothal they used to pay oblations to their gods in 2700BC also ie 1000 years before the so called migration.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 08:02
And as you say if these ancient people used to speak Burushaski or some other language then why not even one name of the place or rivers is Burushaski instead of Sanskrit..?
In all other places where Indo-Europeans(or kurgans) migrated they have retained many pre-Indo european place and river names but not in India-Pak area.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:09
Indus fertility Goddess

 Lakshmi : Hindu Goddess of Fertility and wealth
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:09

Fertility Goddess worshipped by Harappans and even by Mehrgarh people was nothing other than the ancient form of Lakshmi or Bhuvaneshwari.Till recently India was an agrarian economy and all most all the agrarian families and land lords worshipped fertility goddesses ie different manifestations of Lakshmi.In Kerala we used to worship Bhuvaneswari .
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:19
And about the Indo-European speaking people.India has maximum number of Indo-European speaking people than any other part of the world.More than 900 million(total population of India is nearly 1200million) people in India speaks Indo European languages.And many of these languages are as old as or even older than sanskrit which(I mean sanskrit) is considered as the elder sister of all the Indo-European languages.
If Indus-Saraswati valley had any other language other than sanskrit as their language then that language had mysteriously vanished without even leaving a trace of it.
But Modern Greece and many parts of Europe still has pre-hellenic(pelasgian) annd pre-celtic place & river names.And Indo-Europeans are known to have invaded/migrated to these places much before they came to Indus-Saraswati valley.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:21
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Fertility Goddess worshipped by Harappans and even by Mehrgarh people was nothing other than the ancient form of Lakshmi or Bhuvaneshwari.Till recently India was an agrarian economy and all most all the agrarian families and land lords worshipped fertility goddesses ie different manifestations of Lakshmi.In Kerala we used to worship Bhuvaneswari .


A very famous & ancient temple of Maha Lakshmi"the Hindu Goddess of Wealth & fertility" is located at Kolhapur in Maharashtra
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:31
I dont think Indus-Saraswati civilization was a Dravidian Civilization.Dravidian the term itself originated from the word "Tamila".Tamil also is a very old language.Dravidian civilization was a seperate civilization which flourished and grew in the southern part of India.They were believed to have interactions with Indus-Saraswati people.In the oldest Tamil literature(Sangam literature dates back to 1100BC) there is no mention of a Southward migration but it speaks of a Northward migration due to rise in sealevels.And the basic religio-philosophical thoughts of Dravidian civilization is also very similar to Indus-Saraswati people.
"Arriyan" was a word that was used in Sangam tamil to indicate a noble man."Arivu" in Tamil means wisdom.Arivu in malayalam also means wisdom.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 09:34
Rigvedic Fire rituals like Agnicayana & Agnistoma are still being performed in many parts of India with fire alltars similar to that found in Kalibangan & Lothal sites 
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:13

Thaithireeya Upanishad starts with the verse

 

“ Sam no mitra: sam varuna: sam no bhavathyaryama

sam na indro brihaspathi: sam no vishnururukrama

namo brahmane..namasthe vayo tvameva prathyaksham brahmaasi

tvaameva prathyaksha brahma vadhishyami, hrutham vadhishyami,satyam vadhishyami.tanmavavathu tad vaktaramavathu , avathu maam avathu vaktharam.

  

Om sahanavavathu , sahanou bhunakthu,

Sahaveeryam karvavahai,

tejasvinavatheethamasthu,Mavidvishavahai

Om shanti:shanti: shanti

The above verse have almost all Indo-European dieties mentioned.
There are other dieties also praised in other vedic and upanishadic works like Agni,rudra,Dyaus,Purusa(primordial man),prithvi(janitri),Visvedevas,Parjanya,Savitr(surya or sun),Usas(who spreads daylight"ahana"),Pusan,Apas(watergod),Bhaga,Rbhus,Tvastr(the divine artificer or creator god),Marut,Yama(son of Vivaswt),Yami,Manu etc
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:22
All the Ancient Indo-Europena dieties are mentioned in Vedic literture 
But not all are mentioned in any other manuscripts of other Indo-European civilizations.Only some are mentioned in .And other dieties like Frigga or freyga has cognates in Sanskrit(priya) with same or similar meaning.
If sanskrit and Vedic culture is an offshoot of an existing civilization which was migrating then why only the Indo-Aryans who migrated to/invaded the Indus Saraswati retained all the dietieds and no others..?
If the Indo-aryans were just an offshoot from an established parent population then they would have only remembered and retained some of the dieties and not all.
And the parent population or the oldest stock would have retained all the diety names.But in reality only sanskrit has retained all the diety names.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:30
Another difficulty here is believing that some people who numbered thousands migrated to/invaded Indus-Saraswati valley and then imposed their language and culture to 20 million people who is spread in 2 million kilometres and was well established as a civilization,
 and then they wrote more tha 17500 manuscripts which praises new dieties and new rituals within 600 years.
Where as the History of the sub-continent says a different story.Even 700 years of Islamic rule and after that 150 years of british rule was not able to bring about much of a change to the religio-philisophic thoughts,language and culture of the sub continent.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:37
Modern Indians has inheritted many things from ancient Indus-Saraswati people.The artifacts and toys of Moenjodaro,Harappa,Lothal etc are similar to many tools and equipments used by present day Indians and  I think pakistanis too
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:41
A bullock cart toy from Indus valley

A bullock cart from present day India.
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The Indus seal carrying the figure of a boat
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A House boat in present day India
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 10:54
Lothal the Archaeological site at Sabarmati delta Gujarat which is dating back to 2400BC was a dock where the Harappans built boats and ships . 700-1000years before the so called migration/invasion took place the harappans knew to build ships & boats
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