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Vishnu idol found during excavation in Russian tow |
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 Topic: Vishnu idol found during excavation in Russian towPosted: 10-Jan-2007 at 03:12 |
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The following news appears to be interesting, as the archaeological evidences from Central Asia, China and other places yield evidences, which pint to the Indian influence at earlier periods: Vishnu idol found during excavation in Russian town
PTI | January 04, 2007 | 10:52 IST An ancient Vishnu idol has been found during excavation in an old village in Russia's Volga region, raising questions about the prevalent view on the origin of ancient Russia.
The idol found in Staraya (old) Maina village dates back to VII-X century AD. Staraya Maina village in Ulyanovsk region was a highly populated city 1700 years ago, much older than Kiev, so far believed to be the mother of all Russian cities. "We may consider it incredible, but we have ground to assert that Middle-Volga region was the original land of Ancient Rus. This is a hypothesis, but a hypothesis, which requires thorough research," Reader of Ulyanovsk State University's archaeology department Dr Alexander Kozhevin told state-run television Vesti. Dr Kozhevin, who has been working in Staraya Maina for last seven years, said that every single square metre of the surroundings of the ancient town situated on the banks of Samara, a tributary of Volga, is studded with antiques. Prior to unearthing of the Vishnu idol, Dr Kozhevin has already found ancient coins, pendants, rings and fragments of weapons. He believes that today's Staraya Maina, a town of eight thousand, was ten times more populated in the ancient times. It is from here that people started migrating to the Don and Dneiper rivers around the time ancient Russy built the city of Kiev, now the capital of Ukraine. An international conference is being organised later this year to study the legacy of the ancient village, which can radically change the history of ancient Russia. Can we take it as an evidence for "India" extending upto those areas or Indians were just living there to leave their artifacts and they are recovered now?
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 03:49 |
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It could only be trade, India never extended that far north west.
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TeldeInduz
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Joined: 07-Mar-2006 Location: Paraguay Online Status: Offline Posts: 857 |
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Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 03:56 |
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I'll give you one explanation. Aryans were followers of Vedism. Vishnu was a main Vedic God. The Aryans migrated from the Volga region to Pakistan 2000 years ago and brought with them statues of Vishnu, but forgot 1 back in the Volga. A couple of hundred years later, a small group of these Aryans decided to go to the Ganges and form a new religion called Hinduism. They retained Vishnu as one God and Indra of course, and generated some Dravidian Gods to please the Dravidian population. Then on AE, T Selvam decides to forget all history (like that Vedism was the pre Islamic religion along with Buddhism of ancient Pakistanis) and come up with a pan-Indic theory that ignores all historical events.
In other words "Indians" as we know them today never got outside of modern day India and definitely not up as far as the Volga, though the Vedic followers (ancient Pakistanis) might have been there - Pan Pakistanism.
Edited by TeldeInduz - 10-Jan-2007 at 04:08 |
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 04:47 |
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"Vedic followers" is mentioned as "ancient Pakistanis" above. Would the learned writer enlighten me how, as it again appears to be based on the "Pakistan stolen history" type or otherwise.
Aurel Stein's collection displayed at the British museum exhibit many artifacts, manuscripts etc., which have Indian characteristic influence. Even in Chinise caves, there have been "Hindu" sculptures, though, the majority have been "BUddhist". In fact, during Buddhist missionary activities "Brahmanas and Shramanas" used to go together and many times, non-Indian documents mention them as same, as they were coming from India. The case is with South-east Asian countries.
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TeldeInduz
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Joined: 07-Mar-2006 Location: Paraguay Online Status: Offline Posts: 857 |
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Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 13:20 |
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Look on a map. Find Pakistan. the ancestors of those people that inhabit that area (excluding full migrants) were the ancient Pakistanis. It's pretty simple.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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malizai_
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Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 13:58 |
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Chinese and Buddhist connections with places of learning in the sub- continent are widespread. Consider the universities of Taxila 700BC in ancient times.
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
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Joined: 06-Apr-2006 Location: India Online Status: Offline Posts: 287 |
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Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 08:12 |
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1. The news is interesting!
2. The arguement that "ancient Pakistanis" (sic) are (or were) "Vedic" followers is more interesting!!
3. It makes me to rember one person, who read a paper in one session of IHC (I think Bhopal), hypothesizing that "Ayodhya" is in Afghanistan!!!
4. Does "Chinese and Buddhist connections are widespread in the sub-contient" (Malizai) means that the sub-continent includes China also or areas upto China? Are you referring to "Greater India" of historians?
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History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
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Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 08:14 |
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Incidentally, what happened to my photo? instead, a figure with ? is apearing! |
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History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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Zagros
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Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 08:43 |
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Roman artifacts found in India, does that mean that Rome extended into India? I don't think so. Don't underestimate the fluidity of culture that trade creates.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 05:01 |
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We had problems with the server in the middle of december, many peoples avatars were lost and needed to be reloaded. |
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
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Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 10:46 |
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Zagros fails to note the evidences of Aurel Stein found as has already been poiinted out above. Incidentally, TeldeInduz gives his own interpretation How Zagros would react to it? |
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History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 02:43 |
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TeldeInduz: Then'll give you one explanation. Aryans were followers of Vedism. Vishnu was a main Vedic God. The Aryans migrated from the Volga region to Pakistan 2000 years ago and brought with them statues of Vishnu, but forgot 1 back in the Volga.
> Suppose, if one more idol opf Vishnu is found, he would change his mathematics? Then, Pakistanis are Aryans?
T: A couple of hundred years later, a small group of these Aryans decided to go to the Ganges and form a new religion called Hinduism.
> That the same "Aryans", that too, "a small group" decided to come to Ganges and form a new religion 1800 years back (2000-200=1800) is quite amusing!
T: They retained Vishnu as one God and Indra of course, and generated some Dravidian Gods to please the Dravidian population.
> According one arguement, the "aryns" who came from Central Asia were the creators of IVC, would TeldeInduz accept it?
T: Then on AE, T Selvam decides to forget all history (like that Vedism was the pre Islamic religion along with Buddhism of ancient Pakistanis) and come up with a pan-Indic theory that ignores all historical events.
> As on 1947 and even before 1947, Islam was there in undivided India. That means, you can very well claim that Vedic religion was pre-islamic even in India, when the Muslims were ruling from the Lodhis to Moghuls.
T: In other words "Indians" as we know them today never got outside of modern day India and definitely not up as far as the Volga, though the Vedic followers (ancient Pakistanis) might have been there - Pan Pakistanism.
> This purely his imagination leading to make such surmise.
If Pakistanis claim that they follow Vedic religion, it is very good indeed. Then, the Hindus of India should envy Pakistanis for their sincereity. By the way how the Vedism / Vedic religion / Sanskrit / etc., are promoted in Pakistan, as the Pakistanis have been so fond of "Vedism"?
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chimera
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Joined: 25-Jan-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 131 |
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Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 04:39 |
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The polar region was known to early writers.
"These descriptions provide us with adequate information about the explicit astronomical identity of the nine stars, called as Dhruva, Arundhathi & saptha Rishis's. Figure 19, 20 and 21 illustrate Load Star Pro views of the 'Ursa major', with zoom in to 'Vasishta-Arundhati' pair. This constellation is known in Northern Hemisphere as rotating around the pole star Polaris."
Mount Meru is firstly the north pole, then symbolically is in the Pamirs north of Pakistan. The centre of Brahmins' world is between Russia and India.
chimera
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
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Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 05:59 |
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I think, Chimera has been very hasty in posting: 1. I do not know what Chimera is referring to quote from some unspecified secondary source. 2. The mention of polar region appears to be mystifying. 3. What are those 19, 20 and 21 figures? 4. Kindly give the reference. 5. I do not understand what he/she wants to convey by saying that, The centre of Brahmins' world is between |
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History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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chimera
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Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 15:45 |
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The quote is from
www.vedicastronomy.net/stars_appendix.htm - 38k
To identify Meru with the north Pole, Brahmins must have been familiar with the northern lands to observe Ursa Major stars rotating around Polaris star. When they selected the Pamirs as the land of symbolic Meru as world centre, then Brahmins must have been nearby as they saw themselves as the centre of faith. One of Meru's rivers flowed to the north. In Russian Tsar times, a Hindu temple was at Baku on the Caspian. Probably, the Sarmatian-Scythians and northern Kamboj were a branch of Brahmin faith, who supported Indra and Danu against the Brahmin Vritra naga. The western "river" from Meru became Zoroastrian, but in the east in Sinkiang China, the Tocharians knew "brahmn.kte" as Brahma. Danu went west to Ireland, and south to Bali Indonesia.
chimera
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
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Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 19:24 |
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1. I note that you are located in antartica. Were you in Arctic, then, you could have argued following Tilak! 2. It is evident that you want to emphasize too much for Brahmins, but there have been non-Brahmins who composed Vedic texts. In fact, there are women to in composing such Vedic texts. Therefore, harping on Brahmins, what you try to drive at? 3. The European writers repeatedly used the word Brahman / Brahmin / Brahminical as adjective for everything brahmanical religion, brahmianical faith, brahminical science and so on, but, there are no such things. 4. Which Meru, you are talking about cosmological, geographical, astronomical or otherwise? 5. By saying that Brahmins spread like that, can you say all who held such ideas or religious tenets in those parts of the world follow Brahmanism? Edited by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao - 26-Jan-2007 at 19:25 |
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History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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chimera
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Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 16:33 |
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Actually I'm in Australia which claims territory in Antarctica.
 This topic is about Vishnu in Russia, so I connect those by Brahmin history. I wrote that Meru was seen as north Pole, and symbolically as being in Pamir.
In Sinkiang China:
In Russia:(quote)
"This subject is very important to us. I promised him that I will send a copy of the book to him after I returned to Bombay.
Now in the office of the Society, we decided that I should first visit Bakus Atash Kadeh and then at about 8 P. M. I should give a lecture to the Society members whoever can attend. Two specific subjects were decided for my lecture. One about the Parsees and the other about the Ancient History of the Hun people. After that, these noble people escorted me in two cars to visit Bakus Atash Kadeh.
Surkhani
The Atash Kadeh was in a place called Surkhani on the road from Baku about 30 to 45 minutes by car... Not just me but any Parsee who is a little familiar with our Hindu brethrens religion, their temples and their customs, after examining this building with its inscriptions, architecture, etc., would conclude that this is not a Parsee Atash Kadeh but is a Hindu Temple, whose Brahmins (priests) used to worship fire (Sanskrit: Agni)."(end quote). Brahmins' god Danu is the DNieper, Dneister,Don and DANUbe rivers._John Koch. Advanced Welsh Studies.U.Wales.
Persian/Sanskrit "braman(i)ya" means "religiously", Brahma<IE brih "praise".
Old Swedish "bram" means "state.pomp" >OEnglish "breme" is "high.famous.noble". Scythians and Sarmatians followed Danu who with Indra killed Vritra , a Brahmin. Thus some Russians were a branch of Brahminism
but they split from Vedic India and evidently kept only part of that faith.
chimera |
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
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Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 21:10 |
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Thank you, it is interesting. May I know what you are doing, what is your background etc., just to know in the context to proceed further effectively in the subject matter. What is the book which is about the subject matter? As you point out that some Russians were a branch of Brahmanism, but they split from Vedic \ Who were the Russians part of a branch of Brahmanism? \ When they split from the Vedic India? \ What exactly you mean by Vedic India? \ If they kept only part of that faith, do you suggest that the Vishnu idol found is attributed to them? I am asking the details to know more from you, as you appear to be very knowledgeable in the subject matter. |
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History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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chimera
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Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 23:16 |
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Hi Ramakrishna,
I'm pleased to have the discussion. This is the book, sorry about the font-size. (quote)
My Travels Outside Bombay
Iran, Azerbaijan, Baku By Ervad Shams-Ul-Ulama Dr. Sir Jivanji Jamshedji Modi B. A., Ph. D. C. I. E. (1854-1933) Translated by Soli Dastur, copyright 2004. Used with permission. Photographs by Sarosh Manekshaw copyright 1993, 1995. Used with permission. Additional photographs of the Qala-e Duxtar by Mr. Farroukh Isfandzadeh, copyright 2004. Used with permission. Introduction by Soli DasturThis book written in Gujarati by Dr. Modi was published in 1926 describing his extensive travels from Mumbai to Aden to Africa, Europe, Russia, Iran, Iraq, Karachi, and back to Bombay in 1925. His major objective was to travel to all these places in search of clues about Zoroastrian civilization which was spread in many dynasties from Europe to China and all the way south to India, ending with the Sassanian Dynastys glorious empire destroyed by Arabs in 7th century". (end quote)
Fire Temple of BakuFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia(Redirected from Atashgah)
[edit] Temple descriptionInscriptions in the temple in Sanskrit (in Nagari Devanagari script) and Punjabi (in Gurmukhi script) identify the sanctity as a place of Hindu or Sikh worship. These inscriptions date from Samvat 1725 to Samvat 1873, which though unambiguous references to the Hindu calendar, cannot be precisely dated since there is more than one Samvat calendar. Samvat 1725 could thus be either c. 1646 CE or c. 1782 CE. According to Abraham Valentine Williams, the Punjabi language inscriptions are quotations from the Adi Granth. The Sanskrit ones are from the Sati Sri Ganesaya namah, invoke Ganesha, and state that the shrine was built for Jwalaji, the flame-faced goddess Jwalamukhi, of the Kangra district in Himachal Pradesh, India."(end quote). This is not proof of Hinduism in Russia, but is evidence of religious contact north of Pamirs. Iranian Sarmatians, related to Scythians, were in the Ural mountain to Caspian sea region 4th centBCE. Possibly they had a tribal religion with Brahmin influence, with variations so that Danu or Shiva or Vishnu were also their gods, in some places. By "Vedic India" I meant the standard Brahmin faith of the Vedas at that early time. I believe that IndoEuropean language was a way to express religious and political ideas which were part of the heritage of all IE cultures across Eurasia. As languages diverge over time, so do religious traditions, but the basic customs can still be seen. Do you agree up to this point? If so, I will go on further.
chimera |
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chimera
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Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 23:17 |
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wow, that text got messed up
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