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Nick1986
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Topic: History repeats in Gaza Posted: 23-Nov-2012 at 13:47 |
Of course Palestine's a country Cyrus. It has existed since the Romans conquered Judea and its people are the descendents of Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam when the Arabs invaded in the 7th century
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 23-Nov-2012 at 14:17 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Of course Palestine's a country Cyrus. It has existed since the Romans conquered Judea and its people are the descendents of Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam when the Arabs invaded in the 7th century
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There is already no country with this name, and hopefully there won't be any as long as terrorists rule there.
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Baal Melqart
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Posted: 23-Nov-2012 at 15:00 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
because your statement is false, big time and I can prove it to be so. You're just regurgitating extremist pro-zionist opinions, not the first time I heard such alleged facts. Yes, Jews are genetically descended from the Hebraic peoples or Israelites that once lived in Palestine and I guess that means they have a right to live in this land. So far I agree. Yet the Palestinians according to such a standard are even more deserving to have a share of the land than the Jews themselves, namely because they have more blood from ancient Israelites and this has been supported even by many prominent Jews, such as Ben Gurion.
Anyone who studies the genetics and culture of the Palestinians can tell you quite clearly that your claim is baseless. Palestinian names for villages and many of their customs have a very deep connection with ancient Jewish traditions and it suffices that the Keffiyah that palestinians still wear nowadays has threads at the corners, exactly like a Tzitzit on a Jewish prayer shawl.
Many scholars have noted these many similarities in culture and tradition. The fact of the matter is that the region was inhabited by Jews and Christians who were native to it. When the Muslims conquered Palestine, many were either forced or coerced to convert and these converted Jews and Christians are the modern-day Palestinians. To claim that they are originally from Hijaz simply because they were conquered by those people is to say that all Iranians nowadays are from Hijaz simply because of the Muslim conquests.
I mean, you know better than me that the Bedouins of Hijaz were not a very numerous people back in those days and that's mainly because desert regions do not promote population growth. The conquerors were a small minority in the lands which they conquered and as such it is utterly unreasonable to say that they somehow were able to genetically displace all the Jewish/Christian Palestinians that were living there for many centuries before them.
Now I'm not gonna deny that the Palestinians definitely have some descent from Hijazis and other bedouins tribes that lived in Jordana and Syria but then this would be the same for all nations nowadays. Can anyone say that a modern-day nation has a pure race? Of course not...
Call the land whatever you want, Palestine, Israel, Judah... The fact will still remain that Palestinians have a deep connection with this land and have long-time history to back it up as well.
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Ok, a country can't have two names, the name of this land is Israel and those who live there are called Israeli, they can be Jew, Muslim, Chritsian, ... and can speak Hebrew, Arabic, ... but their nationality is Israeli, not Palestinan.
Arabs make up about one-fifth of Israel's population, of course they can live there but it is meaningless to say they should rule over the whole population because they probably have more blood from ancient people who lived in this land!!
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When did I make such an outrageous claim? I never said Palestinians should rule over the region. I just said that they have a very strong claim to live there and I was merely using their genetics as an example. I didn't mean that they literally had more right to the land, I was simply stressing the historical and genetic bonds they have with this land...
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Timidi mater non flet
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Menumorut
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Posted: 23-Nov-2012 at 15:50 |
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
... but all these pictures I've seen of burnt infants, open skulls and offals dragging on the streets is enough to see through your bias. |
Many or most of what palestinian media presents is fake, children killed by palestinians themselves, photoshopped pictures or Pallywood productions.
Originally posted by Challenger2
in this instance the past is fundamental to the solution of the problem. I do not advocate expulsion of those children of colonists born there since 1948, I'm sure they will be productive citizens of a future "Palestisraeli" state, but the cancer of Zionism needs to be expunged from the region, so it can join Communism and Nazism and all the other "-isms" of the late 19th-early 20th century in the dustbin of history. |
Why you try to put Zionism along nazism and other malefic doctrines? Jews have every right to live and rule in their ancestral motherland, where they lived for millenia (the biblic story with the Jews coming from other part lead by Abraham is fake).
Originally posted by Nick1986
Of course Palestine's a country Cyrus. It has existed since the Romans conquered Judea and its people are the descendents of Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam when the Arabs invaded in the 7th century |
What you mean by country? palestine is just a derogatory name Romans gave to Judea, to insult the Jews after their two rebellions.
There never was an independent Arab state in this territory. Up to 10th century the majority of population may been Jews (speaking Hebrew and having Judaic religion) as in Syria, Egypt the majority was Christian untill late middle age.
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Baal Melqart
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Posted: 23-Nov-2012 at 18:10 |
Yeah, I'm sure all those pictures are fake. Heck, all the medias are just lying, says who that even a single Palestinian died during the clash? My point is that people died and it was futile.
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Timidi mater non flet
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 23-Nov-2012 at 20:13 |
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
Yeah, I'm sure all those pictures are fake. Heck, all the medias are just lying, says who that even a single Palestinian died during the clash? My point is that people died and it was futile.
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Nonsense Baal ole chum. This is exactly what the Hamas terrorist leaders of Gaza wished for and received. Attention draw away from their masters in Iran. It's exactly what Iran wanted and will continue to endorse and support. It's exactly what Hezbollah wanted as they believe they can rest a little easier while their terrorist forces ramp up for their next rocket attacks. It's exactly what Morsi in Egypt wanted. He and the MB are now the new version of Mubarak and his former cronies vice his extra-legal decrease. I warned ya about that terrorist loving piece of shit a couple days ago. It's exactly what the butchers of Assad in the Syria want. It's exactly what the Sudanese want. I can continue. It's EXACTLY what every Islamist terrorist and covert or overt apologist wished for. Damnation of the IG for it's defensive and natural reaction. Applause for the poor Palestinians who suffer the mania of their terrorist leaders. It's exactly what is necessary and justifiable in all the fascist, islamist terrorist, eyes to continue their planned and voiced campaign of genocide and the destruction of the State of Israel. And it ain't over yet..no matter the newest version of apologists..yourself not included.. now permeating the ranks of AE. Seen em come will seeeeeee em go...hi ho hi ho. Hq's in the Field Vic: Capitan Mtn, NM. retrans and router
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 24-Nov-2012 at 01:42 |
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
When did I make such an outrageous claim? I never said Palestinians should rule over the region. I just said that they have a very strong claim to live there and I was merely using their genetics as an example. I didn't mean that they literally had more right to the land, I was simply stressing the historical and genetic bonds they have with this land...
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You say again Palestinian, they are some Arabs who live in Israel, some millions Arabs also live in the south and southwest Iran, in 19th century this region was known as Arabistan, so some Arab separatists call this people Arabistani, not just Arab.
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Challenger2
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Posted: 24-Nov-2012 at 02:42 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Ok, a country can't have two names...
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Antigua-Barbuda? Bosnia-Herzegovina? Guinea-Bissau? St Kitts & Nevis? St Vincent & the Grenadines? Sao Tome & Principe? Trinidad & Tobago? United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
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Ollios
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Posted: 24-Nov-2012 at 03:51 |
I don't talk about current conflict. My opinion is Hamas should stop attack, Israel should give East Jeraselam and other lands. I wouldn't write anything in this topic unless I won't able to stop myself after seeing written things by CyrusCYRUS1-Origin of Palestines is not Arabistan like not all current Turks aren't from Central Asia, all Arabs do not come from Arabistan
Originally posted by
Characteristic HLA Allele Frequencies of the Palestinian Population Compared With Other Mediterraneans
The
close relatedness of Palestinians to Iranians, Armenians, Egyptians and
Anatolians (Turks ) further support an autochthonous Canaanite/Middle
East origin for both Palestinians and Jews
| http://www.stml.net/text/Populations.pdfPeople of Palestine are belongs to Levant. Jews and Palestines are brothers and this is not for a peace message. Geneticaly, they are close. 2-You give the jews rights to come back that lands, are you giving same rights to refugees of Palestine who left their home just 50-60 years ago not in ancient Roman times?
Edited by Ollios - 24-Nov-2012 at 03:52
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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 24-Nov-2012 at 05:04 |
Originally posted by Challenger2
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Ok, a country can't have two names...
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Antigua-Barbuda? Bosnia-Herzegovina? Guinea-Bissau? St Kitts & Nevis? St Vincent & the Grenadines? Sao Tome & Principe? Trinidad & Tobago? United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
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If the problem is just a name then you call this country Palestisrael, but I think the major problem is that some terrorists groups, like hamas, want to rule over this land, they are similar to Assassins in the Middle Ages, they just want to kill and it really doesn't matter for them who the killed people are, their heroes are those brainwashed people who kill themselves to kill some other ones, it is clear that Jews can't live alongside these idiots.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 24-Nov-2012 at 05:53 |
Ollios, I said what the problem is in my above post, I wish everyone live in the best situation but some people can't do it because of theie own leaders.
My father is already at hospital and I can't find an essential drug because of the sanctions imposed on my country, the situation could be different but our leaders want it and I have to live in this situation.
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Menumorut
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Posted: 24-Nov-2012 at 08:12 |
Originally posted by Ollios
I don't talk about current conflict. My opinion is Hamas should stop attack, Israel should give East Jeraselam and other lands. |
I'm of the same opinion.
[QUOTE] like not all current Turks aren't from Central Asia, all Arabs do not come from Arabistan
Originally posted by
Characteristic HLA Allele Frequencies of the Palestinian Population Compared With Other MediterraneansThe
close relatedness of Palestinians to Iranians, Armenians, Egyptians and
Anatolians (Turks ) further support an autochthonous Canaanite/Middle
East origin for both Palestinians and Jews |
Surely, today Turks are rather descendantds of Anatolian populations than of Altai Turks (although Altai Turks may have a genetic contribution too), which before were speaking Greek, Armenian etc and before that they spoke Hittite and other ancient Anatolian languages and so on.
Arabs from Israel too are actually Arabized Jews, they're practically the same people with the Jews but speaking different language. The Askhenazi Jews being descendants of Khazars is a myth debunked by scientists on genetic basis. Both peoples, Arabs and Jews have equal rights in Israel and there must be created two states with equal advantages.
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Baal Melqart
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Posted: 24-Nov-2012 at 10:43 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
When did I make such an outrageous claim? I never said Palestinians should rule over the region. I just said that they have a very strong claim to live there and I was merely using their genetics as an example. I didn't mean that they literally had more right to the land, I was simply stressing the historical and genetic bonds they have with this land...
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You say again Palestinian, they are some Arabs who live in Israel, some millions Arabs also live in the south and southwest Iran, in 19th century this region was known as Arabistan, so some Arab separatists call this people Arabistani, not just Arab. |
Nope, I believe I explained this to you but I think it won't matter how many times I repeat myself... Palestinians or whatever you want to call them (It just makes it a lot easier to refer to when you give them a name doesn't it?) are descended from the Jews and Christians that once lived in this land before the Muslim conquest. What you are doing Cyrus, is you are confusing the political entity with the racial one. The race is the same and they have been living in the region for God knows how long. They are technically Israelites if you look at it from a racial point of view, that's basically my point. As to the Political entity present in this land, I guess that's a totally different matter. If this group of people who live in Israel identify themselves as having their own culture and identity then they have the right to have their own country and they can call it Palestine or whatever they wish to call it. Now, we would all wish that there was one state, say the Israel that we know nowadays governing the entire region because we have seen that it has democratic values and can cater to its citizens. The issue of course is the dark history between Israelis and Palestinians which wouldn't make such a unity possible, imo. If we talk, say, about a two-state solution then you know better than me that this would never work given the overwhelming presence of terrorist groups all over...
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Timidi mater non flet
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 11:23 |
Baal Melqart, I think you are the one who has just focused on the racial issues, as I said it is meaningless to say some people have more blood from another people who still live, we don't talk about ancient extinct people such as Sumerians, Hittites or Babylonians, for example I'm a Persian, it can't change anything if you prove a Jew who lives in Iran has more Persian blood than me, for about 1,200 years the capitals of the Persian empires were located at modern Iraq, many of our great Persian kings and noblemen were born and died there, so many Iraqis have more Persian blood than Iranians, especially because the large amount of Turkic mixture in Iran, so does it mean Iraqis can easily claim our country? No because it is not just about the blood, please understand this thing.
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Baal Melqart
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Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 12:32 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Baal Melqart, I think you are the one who has just focused on the racial issues, as I said it is meaningless to say some people have more blood from another people who still live, we don't talk about ancient extinct people such as Sumerians, Hittites or Babylonians, for example I'm a Persian, it can't change anything if you prove a Jew who lives in Iran has more Persian blood than me, for about 1,200 years the capitals of the Persian empires were located at modern Iraq, many of our great Persian kings and noblemen were born and died there, so many Iraqis have more Persian blood than Iranians, especially because the large amount of Turkic mixture in Iran, so does it mean Iraqis can easily claim our country? No because it is not just about the blood, please understand this thing. |
Well then we're in agreement. Why exactly you try to discredit the Palestinians as ''just some group of Arabs'' is beyond me. No it is not only about blood, it's also about history, culture and the belonging one feels for the land.
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Timidi mater non flet
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 13:59 |
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
Well then we're in agreement. Why exactly you try to discredit the Palestinians as ''just some group of Arabs'' is beyond me. No it is not only about blood, it's also about history, culture and the belonging one feels for the land. |
Should we call Kurds of Iraq Assyrians because they live in the ancient land of Assyria? What about Kurds of Turkey, Iran or Syria? They have no independent country and they are all Kurds, aren't they? The same thing can be said about Arabs, what should call some millions Arabs of Iran?
Anyway I am not opposite of forming a Palestinian state, but on the condition that this state respects the existence of Israel as a state and never support terrorists in the region, in the current situation that terrorists are at power, this thing seems to be impossible.
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Baal Melqart
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Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 14:57 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
Well then we're in agreement. Why exactly you try to discredit the Palestinians as ''just some group of Arabs'' is beyond me. No it is not only about blood, it's also about history, culture and the belonging one feels for the land. |
Should we call Kurds of Iraq Assyrians because they live in the ancient land of Assyria? What about Kurds of Turkey, Iran or Syria? They have no independent country and they are all Kurds, aren't they? The same thing can be said about Arabs, what should call some millions Arabs of Iran?
Anyway I am not opposite of forming a Palestinian state, but on the condition that this state respects the existence of Israel as a state and never support terrorists in the region, in the current situation that terrorists are at power, this thing seems to be impossible. |
Nice try Cyrus. No Kurds are not Assyrians but then this is not a good comparison with the Palestinians namely because Palestinians belong to Israel and are not intruders in the land. The Arabs of Iran come from places like Bahrain, UAE and Oman. Palestinians are originally from the land of Israel.
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Timidi mater non flet
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Challenger2
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Posted: 27-Nov-2012 at 04:20 |
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
Well then we're in agreement. Why exactly you try to discredit the Palestinians as ''just some group of Arabs'' is beyond me. No it is not only about blood, it's also about history, culture and the belonging one feels for the land. |
Should we call Kurds of Iraq Assyrians because they live in the ancient land of Assyria? What about Kurds of Turkey, Iran or Syria? They have no independent country and they are all Kurds, aren't they? The same thing can be said about Arabs, what should call some millions Arabs of Iran?
Anyway I am not opposite of forming a Palestinian state, but on the condition that this state respects the existence of Israel as a state and never support terrorists in the region, in the current situation that terrorists are at power, this thing seems to be impossible. |
Nice try Cyrus. No Kurds are not Assyrians but then this is not a good comparison with the Palestinians namely because Palestinians belong to Israel and are not intruders in the land. The Arabs of Iran come from places like Bahrain, UAE and Oman. Palestinians are originally from the land of Israel.
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And that is quintessentially the point, no matter how much Zionists twist, obfuscate and rewite history, the "Palestinians" have always been there. They may have been called different names at different times in history, they may have converted to Judaism, Christianity or Islam or remained Pagan at various points in time, but they remain the indigenous inhabitants of the land and their fundamental right to be there trumps any pseudo-historic connection European adherants of Judaism may think they have. I have absolutely no objection to the European followers of Judaism living alongside the natives anywhere in the middle East if that's what they want to do and the natives don't object; my objection stems from their forced dispossession of the native peoples and their ongoing persecution of those that had nothing at all to do with the historical treatment of jews in Europe, in pursuit of their ultimate goal of a "Jews only" state.
Edited by Challenger2 - 27-Nov-2012 at 04:23
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 27-Nov-2012 at 06:39 |
Israel has been always considered as a Holy Land, through the history several different peoples captured this land or migrated there, what we know for sure is that both the original and current people of Israel are Jews, "Native” means someone born within a particular country, so the majority of natives of Israel are also Jews. The problem is that you talk about racist things, like those who have more blood and etc!
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Challenger2
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Posted: 27-Nov-2012 at 08:07 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Israel has been always considered as a Holy Land, through the history several different peoples captured this land or migrated there, what we know for sure is that both the original and current people of Israel are Jews, "Native” means someone born within a particular country, so the majority of natives of Israel are also Jews. The problem is that you talk about racist things, like those who have more blood and etc! |
Israel didn't exist before 1948 CE, prior to that, the jury is still out on the actual existance of any such entity. Neither is it accurate to describe the native peoples as "Jews"; calling "Hebraic" or "Israelite" people "Jews" is like calling all Iranians, "Muslims". both statements contain elements of truth, but discount the fact that large sections of the population did not follow Judaism but worshipped other gods. A "Jew" is a follower of a religion, not an ethnic group, despite the Zionist propaganda to the contrary.
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