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Socrates
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Topic: Serbias Hungarian minority growing more frustrated Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 19:47 |
Originally posted by Zagros
forget ww2 Nazis, Hungary has one of the most prolific neo nazi movements in europe. |
I'm aware of that."Aryans" r coming back(in public) in Germany, too.what's even frightening- they're present in Serbia, too...after Jasenovac and civilian slaughters- one wonders how is it even possble...When germans entered Belgrade in 1941-they were welcomed...by EMPTY STREETS something i'm very proud of(we don't like any kind of imposed authority or discipline...), while in Zagreb and Ljubljana they were welcomed as heroes with flowers and siegheils.
Anyway, i have to admit,some of my favourite hist. persons r germans-Goethe,Schiller,Kant...And many germans showed mercy and sympathy during WWII- heard it from many resistant fighters in serbia...
And I'll continue liking Szerelem from English Patient...one of the most beatiful songs I ever heard...
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Surbel
Shogun
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Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 20:31 |
""Please stop you propaganda...albanians are unique race: dinaric and
alpin...but look you greeks are mis
albaniano-turks-sllav-hebrenj-bulgar... but greeks are mix people""
For those cind it's easyer to push 20cm from behind then 1mm in the head.
Everythig wich doesn't fit with his small and shallow mind is propaganda.
You act like someone from Herzegovina,so i have a gift for you from a
Chatolic Encyclopedia:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02694a.htm
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When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus
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Beowulf
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 08:43 |
Originally posted by Mila
Oh cg_rommel, don't bother.
Ours said his language was Serbian once and his language was Croatian twice. He referenced Slav and Dalmation as the ethnicity of his subjects and the only time he ever referenced anything more specific was when he said: "If a Dubrovcanin has a conflict with a BOSNJANIN, they should go before the Ban."
And they still talk like he wrote books about how Bosnia is Serbia and we're all Serbs. |
Concerning the first part of your text - I agree with cg rommel, except I only understood 1.5% .
And I don't know what books are you refering to? And Njegos obviously thought of himself as a Serbian - it can be seen in every copy of "Mountain Wreath". Btw, Njegos didn't think much of poturice, if you ever read "Mountain Wreath" you would know that. In the core of this book is "Istraga o poturicama".
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Socrates
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 08:50 |
Originally posted by Surbel
Mila,your hole posting on this topic is a one big joke! |
U should get used to it.She tried to forge some more of Serbian history by stating that Serbs killed more Jews then Croats did in WWII!! After I proved her wrong, she made no further comments...
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"It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week"
Bob Rock
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gerik
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 09:13 |
You bring up events from ww2 with the attempt to link them to present events. What about these,you serbs you are not bragging about these:
The three "Cold Days" were followed by "freezing weeks" in the
whole territory of VOJVODINA in 1944, when the Serbians brutally massacred
about 40,000 Hungarian civilians, the overwhelming majority of them innocent
beyond any doubt, in
-10-
revenge of the execution of 3,000 suspected Szerbian partisans.
. The commander-in-chief of the partisan army, Marshal Tito, as far as we know,
did not give any expressed written command to butcher the Hungarians in Bacska.
He did condon and apparently orally directed his partisans in the whole
territory of Yugoslavia - including Vojvodina - to revenge all "injustices"
suffered by partisans and Serbians during the four years of the war. In other
words, where a stream of blood flowed in 1942, a torrent of blood should gush
in 1944.
In the course of the partisans three-year struggle for self-defence against
the Nazis, but mainly against royalist chetniks and independence seeking
Croats, homicidal traditions smouldering under the ashes ever since the Middle
Ages were revived, enriching the various manners of death with numerous cruel
novelties. While the Hungarian military justice executed the condemned one by
one, the Serbian partisans bound ten or fifteen people with wire and killed
them with a round of
firearms. They had lined them up in front of the previously dug common graves
so that they would only have to bury them with the earth that they themselves
had dug from the pit. Whereas the sentence of Hungarian summary courts was
hanging or shooting, the Serbian partisans killed their victims after various
forms of torture. Sometimes they bound together ten or more men in a circle
around a straw or hay stack, then set fire to the stack. The victims dragged
each other into the flames, they all burnt alive. Elsewhere, the captives were
tortured before execution by walking barefoot over a carpet of glowing embers
several metres long. Where the captors had enough time, they tore off all
twenty nails of the victims with pliers. The enjoyment of seeing them suffer
was enhanced if they went to a nearby smithy to make the tools red hot on the
forge. Wherever they were able to find coal, they took the opportunity of
roasting the victims alive. When they skinned somebody alive - usually
prominent people who had to be punished prominently, a well-to-do burgomaster,
lawyer or physician -, even some of the partisan women were on the verge of
fainting, as numerous women also took part in these brutalities.
They were especially cruel to priests and monks. In most cases, they stripped
them naked and cut a strap in the shape of a cross from their backs. Then, for
the sake of the toughest partisan women, they started to deal with their
genitals, tearing their testicles with pliers, cutting off the penis. If there
was a forge nearby, they burnt the penis of clergymen with red hot iron,
repeating the torture for several days
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Source Cseres, T.: Serbian Vendetta in Bacskahttp://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/cseres/cseres01.htm
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Mila
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:18 |
Originally posted by Socrates
Originally posted by Surbel
Mila,your hole posting
on this topic is a one big
joke! |
U should get used to it.She tried to forge some more of Serbian
history by stating that Serbs killed more Jews then Croats did in
WWII!! After I proved her wrong, she made no further comments... |
What are you talking about? If I made no farther comments it was because your rebuttals were repetitive and wrong.
http://www.yadvashem.org
You can browse through the list of names if you want, but it's easier to just call them.
19,800 Jews were killed in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, then the NDH.
32,000 were killed in Serbia and Montenegro.
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Mila
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:20 |
Originally posted by Beowulf
Originally posted by Mila
Oh cg_rommel, don't bother.
Ours said his language was Serbian once and his language was Croatian twice. He referenced Slav and Dalmation as the ethnicity of his subjects and the only time he ever referenced anything more specific was when he said: "If a Dubrovcanin has a conflict with a BOSNJANIN, they should go before the Ban."
And they still talk like he wrote books about how Bosnia is Serbia and we're all Serbs. |
Concerning the first part of your text - I agree with cg rommel, except I only understood 1.5% .
And I don't know what books are you refering to? And Njegos
obviously thought of himself as a Serbian - it can be seen in every
copy of "Mountain Wreath". Btw, Njegos didn't think much of poturice, if you ever read "Mountain Wreath" you would know that. In the core of this book is "Istraga o poturicama". |
I don't know anything about Njegos but the fact that anyone from
Serbia or Montenegro doesn't like poturice doesn't come as a shock.
My post was in reference to Kotromanic, just giving cg_rommel a friendly, joking pat on the shoulder - that's all.
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Maju
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:31 |
Originally posted by Mila
Originally posted by Socrates
Originally posted by Surbel
Mila,your hole posting
on this topic is a one big
joke! |
U should get used to it.She tried to forge some more of Serbian
history by stating that Serbs killed more Jews then Croats did in
WWII!! After I proved her wrong, she made no further comments... |
What are you talking about? If I made no farther comments it was because your rebuttals were repetitive and wrong.
http://www.yadvashem.org
You can browse through the list of names if you want, but it's easier to just call them.
19,800 Jews were killed in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, then the NDH.
32,000 were killed in Serbia and Montenegro.
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Even if those figures are right, wasn't Serbia under direct German military occupation?
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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gerik
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:33 |
The problems in Vojvodina are persisting. Let's see: Country Reports on Human Rights Practices in Serbia and Montenegro - 2004U.S Department of State Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and LaborFebruary 28, 2005
After the December
2003 parliamentary elections--in which the SRS took a plurality of seats--there
was an upsurge in vandalism and violence against minority ethnic and religious
groups in the northern Serbian province of Vojvodina.... The targets were
mainly ethnic Hungarians and ethnic Croats--the two largest minorities
in Vojvodina."
The report continues,
"Among the incidents that targeted religious sites or adherents were:
The January 19 desecration of a Hungarian Catholic cemetery in Novi Sad;
the January 19 desecration of a Reformist church in Sombor; the January
24 desecration of a Croatian Catholic cemetery in Subotica; the desecration
of another Subotica graveyard, where Croats and Bunjevci (both Catholic
groups) are buried, on the night of March 26-27; the desecration of 21
gravestones in the Catholic and Orthodox graveyard in Novi Becej between
May 1 and 2; and an attack in Novi Sad on two Christian Adventist ministers.
The number of antiminority
incidents in Serbia's northern province of Vojvodina increased markedly
after the SRS won a plurality of votes in Serbian parliamentary elections
in December 2003. While the incidents consisted mainly of vandalism targeting
cemeteries, homes, churches, and cultural sites, there were also death
threats and assaults (see Section 2.c.). For example, on April 9, Bela
Csorba, Vice President of the Hungarian Democratic Party of Vojvodina,
found a 12-inch kitchen knife wrapped in paper slipped under his door.
Attached to the weapon was a note in Serbian, "we will slaughter
you." On September 28, an ethnic Hungarian high school student was
beaten by a Serb student at whom he smiled on the bus. According to an
eyewitness and the victim, the Serb boy said, "no Hungarian has ever
smiled at me and none will ever do so!" Other boys joined in the
beating, and when friends of the victim tried to help him, they were beaten
as well."
AHF is pleased that the US
State Department is paying attention and hopes to work with officials
to help bring an end to these barbaric events. |
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Mila
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:37 |
Yes, and I believe that accounts for much of the difference. However,
Bosnia and Herzegovina was occupied as well. In a more abstract sense,
Croatia was - though there was much more public support there.
Yad Vashem just gives the numbers and the place of death, it does not record who killed them.
The only other places where I've ever seen the same numbers are at the
Jewish Museum in Sarajevo, a British Socialist History website, and
from a Jewish historian on Yahoo! Chat - so... I wouldn't bring either
of those to court with me.
However, these three in common said the line "More Jews were killed by Nedic's regime in Serbia than in the whole of the NDH".
So they imply it was the Serbs.
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Zagros
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:39 |
Originally posted by Mila
Originally posted by Socrates
Originally posted by Surbel
Mila,your hole posting on this topic is a one big joke! |
U should get used to it.She tried to forge some more of Serbian history by stating that Serbs killed more Jews then Croats did in WWII!! After I proved her wrong, she made no further comments...
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What are you talking about? If I made no farther comments it was because your rebuttals were repetitive and wrong.
http://www.yadvashem.org
You can browse through the list of names if you want, but it's easier to just call them.
19,800 Jews were killed in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, then the NDH.
32,000 were killed in Serbia and Montenegro.
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It is a known fact, that the Croats and Muslims formed Waffen SS extermination squads under the Nazis while Serbs did no such thing. By the logic that you use, if Croat or Bsonian death squads killed some Jews in Serbia then they will form part of that 32,000 killed in S&M and thus you blame the Serbs by implication, which seems to suit your agenda here. What matter is who did the killing, not so much where they occured...
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Mila
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:41 |
Well, the Bosniaks recruited to the Waffen SS did little if any of
their fighting in this area of the Balkans as I understand it.
But I agree with you - who actually did kill them is more important than where.
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Mila
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:44 |
I found the British Socialist website again. Now I know before I post
this, Maju's first comment will be "You said this was a respected
site!" or something along those lines. I want to remind everyone
before that misunderstanding starts that I already warned I wouldn't
bring this to court two posts above.
http://www.isg-fi.org.uk/archives/press/wib/wib05.htm
It has the line, "The majority of Jews, for example were not murdered in the Ustase concentration
camp at Jasenovac: more were killed by Nedic's regime in Serbia than in the
whole of the NDH."
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gerik
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:46 |
Q: So you are saying that the Serbian policeman slapped the Hungarian victim in front of the Serbian attackers?
A:
Yes, this is exactly the case. This means that they became involved on
the attackers side. Into the beating of Hungarians. And we were
protesting and asking for explanation on this. In fact, we received a
meaningless response letter from which it doesnt turn out whether any
measures were taken. Thus, as it also turned out from this case the
police did and do support anti Hungarian attacks.
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No comment. [6/1/2005] BEATING OF HUNGARIANS IN SERBIA DOCUMENTARY BY IMRE M. SZABO
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Mila
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:48 |
I contacted the owners of the website to ask them from where they got this information.
Things like this sometimes turn out to be self-fulfilling truths - one
instituation makes the claim and it's passed around between others in a
baseless, incestuous circle that no one knows where started.
I'm hoping they'll respond with a book, or something notable - but we'll see.
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Surbel
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 11:02 |
Maju you noticed well. Croatia was in aliance with Germans,Hungary too,from Bosnia the famos one Handzar divison. It's true that exist in those nations even antifashist but the numbers are not comparable. In Serbia didn't exist not even one concentracion camp,while you can find them in Hungary,Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Tito(Croat) start the fight on teritories where was most Serbians cittizens. Why the f..k he didn't start them enywhere else??? First liberated teritory in hole Europe 1942 was famos "Uzicka republika" on Serbian teritory. After liberation of Belgrade 1944, 40000 intelectualles was killed or sent to Sremski front(most of them students). 50% of my family was murdered in Bosnia and Herzegovina on a brutal way by Muslims Ustase. Tito cleaned the Croation territory by sending a lot of Serbians from Lika,Dalmatia... to Vojvodina. I posted now theme for another topic,but this isn't the end of my posting.
Gerik,hungarian website??? And another one...U.S. Department of State??? They still didn't find what they search for a long time in Iraq,but even that is for another topic.
What happened to us in past century we allready forgave,who still whant to count the death ones???
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When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus
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Surbel
Shogun
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Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 11:25 |
Lets put some proof ,everybody knows what is google so lets get busy Ivo Goldstein......Famos Croatian Jew,historian, Avro Manhattan..I think we don't need to ask who is he! Or who doesn't know him can't even discuse on a matter WW2,i can help with a link http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html
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When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus
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Nagyfejedelem
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Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 17:21 |
These are truely happened. Sorry, I don't have a link about it, but these atrocities began earlier.
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Socrates
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Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:39 |
Originally posted by Mila
Originally posted by Socrates
Originally posted by Surbel
Mila,your hole posting on this topic is a one big joke! |
U should get used to it.She tried to forge some more of Serbian history by stating that Serbs killed more Jews then Croats did in WWII!! After I proved her wrong, she made no further comments...
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What are you talking about? If I made no farther comments it was because your rebuttals were repetitive and wrong.
http://www.yadvashem.org
You can browse through the list of names if you want, but it's easier to just call them.
19,800 Jews were killed in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, then the NDH.
32,000 were killed in Serbia and Montenegro.
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So, my comments were wrong...
"The crimes of the fascist Ustashe against the Serbs in the notorious camp of Jasenovac must be known - crimes that are the worst ones along with those committed against the Jews in the Holocaust."
SIMON WIESENTHAL
You see, I had to repeat myself-just to get things strait.Now u're indirectly calling Wiesenthal a liar...Ok, maybe the man has got absolutely no knowledge whatsoever on the subject:
Wiesenthal, Simon: Copyright 1994-2002 Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc
...founder and head (since 1961) of the Jewish Documentation Centre in Vienna. Wiesenthal was a longtime Nazi hunter who, with the cooperation of the Israeli, West German, and other governments, tracked down some 1,000 war criminals...
Those JEWS in SERBIA were KILLED by GERMANS: |
http://www.holocaust-education.dk/holocaust/deportationer.as p -it says here:...Beginning in the autumn of 1941 Serbian Jews were executed as retaliation for the increasing number of Serbian resistance actions... the German army had shot the majority of Jewish men in Serbia... If you need some help distinguishing Serbs and Germans, Ill be happy to do my fair share.
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Edited by Socrates
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Mila
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Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:44 |
So now your arguement has changed to... what?
Croats killed more Serbs during WWII than Serbs
did?
If I'd known that's what you were talking about, since
you specifically said Jews to begin with, I wouldn't
have protested.
EDIT: RE the last quote. So you've got a site that
says the Germans did it, I've got one that says the
Serbs did it. If you think those sites prove either of us
right, you're sadly mistaken.
Edited by Mila
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