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Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel
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    Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 20:41
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Posts: 4262 		  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 20:24
I know the parallel is a bit off - but look at it this way.
 
In Madrid, London and southern Lebanon terrorists are hiding between civilians.
In order to kill a few terrorists, Israel chose to destroy southern Lebanon and kill civilians by the thousands.
Why isnt the same happening in Madrid and London? - some people could easily get the idea, that the civilians are more worth there?
 
Why is Israel "forced" to use methods in Lebanon that are totally unacceptable elsewhere?
 
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Posts: 468 		  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 20:17
Originally posted by erkut

Yes maybe İsrael is a terorist too. And even you can define her ass a monster but who had created this monster? Since 1948 Araps attacking to İsrael again and again, non-stop. Every jewish family has a victim of teror or war. İf you keep attack to a country more than 50 years and if this country is small peopels could be mad!
İn 1948 there was a perfect solution for peace; İsrael and Palastin were two free country and Jerusalem was international city. But Araps started a war and they lose it, than  they started an other war and they lose it again. Again and again they keep attaked to İsrael. So could you tell me who created this monster?Or who is the real monster?
 
P.S: İ am sorry for war and Lebnanese deaths but there are jews dieing to. And objectively Jews are deffending themselves.
 
You don't need to apologize erkut for the war or the Lebanese deaths.  Your country (Israel) is rightfully defending itself and its citizens from terrorists.  The Lebanese government allowed Hezbollah to dwell within its borders and use its (Lebanon's) citizens as human shields.  If the government of Lebanon wanted to protect its citizens it should have done something about Hezbollah in the first place.  You are right about the arabs starting all of the wars against Israel (and losing all of them as well).
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Posts: 468 		  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 20:10
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

Originally posted by Northman

Originally posted by R_AK47

 
Hezbollah is obviously a terrorist organization, any attempt to label them otherwise will end in failure.  All of the death and destruction that took place in Lebanon is the fault of Hezbollah, not Israel.  Hezbollah started the war and after it began, hid like cowards behind Lebanese civilians.  Israel was forced to do what it did. 

 

Just a rhetorical question if I may:

 

Madrid and London has been attacked by groups of local terrorists. They are obviously there.According to your logic, Israel is forced to give Spain and England the same treatment as they gave Libanon?

 

 

Please excuse my inferior mind but to me what you just said made absolutely no sense. Why would Israel attack Spain and England for being attacked by terroirsts. And these were not local they worked for the name of Al-Queda. Terrorist cells being called up to raise arms against the infidels and such.
    
 
I agree with Ponce on this.


Edited by R_AK47 - 15-Aug-2006 at 20:10
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 19:50
Originally posted by Komnenos

Sorry Omar, here you are completely wrong.
Virtually all Eastern European Jews , the Ashkenazi, are the descendants of Western and Central European Jewish people who during the Middle Ages, having been expelled, migrated further East, to Poland and today's Russia, both countries that were then far more tolerant than the rest of Europe.
That the remnants of the Khazar Jews might have contributed to the Eastern European Jewish gene-pool on a small scale, is possible, but so far has not been proven. By the time large scale immigration from the West arrived, the Khazars were long gone.

Now its my turn: Not saying your wrong. But can this be proven?
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:36
Originally posted by erkut

Yes maybe İsrael is a terorist too. And even you can define her ass a monster but who had created this monster?
 
Thank you for your objectivity. Who created the monster? Arabs created the monster? Well isn't this the same argument that applies to Hezbollah? Who created Hezbollah? Isn't it 1982 Israel invasion of Southern Lebanon?
 
Originally posted by erkut

Every jewish family has a victim of teror or war. İf you keep attack to a country more than 50 years and if this country is small peopels could be mad!
 
and every Palestinian family has or know a victim of IDF shooting. Has or know someone who is crippled or injured by the IDF. Has or know someone who lost work, studies, business due to IDF curfew of third of the year in the West bank!!Has or know a prisoner of imprisoning without due-process or court date. Do you know about something called "Administrative detention"? where you are held for even being guilty by association?
 
I advice you to read the new book "How Israel Lost: The four questions" which is a collection of visit reports to Israel by Richard Ben Cramer. By the way, he is a Jew too.
 
 
 
Originally posted by erkut

İn 1948 there was a perfect solution for peace; İsrael and Palastin were two free country and Jerusalem was international city. But Araps started a war and they lose it, than  they started an other war and they lose it again. Again and again they keep attaked to İsrael. So could you tell me who created this monster?Or who is the real monster?
 
Just to remind you, before any so-called terrorist organization existed in Palestine, before any of the so-called attack on Israel by Arabs has been launched, there were already Zionist terrorist groups functioning such as the Ha-Shomer and its offsprings of Haganah...etc.
That is the creation of the state of Israel.
What would you do if a group of people started to immigrate to your place and suddently deciding to establish their new estate on the majority of the inhabitant of your place? Accept it? or fight for your own rights? Killings and massacres in Deir-Yassin and other towns and villages assured them that 700,000 displaced Palestinians are out of Palestine. Why can't they return? Because they escaped a war? feared for their life? run away from stories of horrifying massacres of whole villages?
 
 
Originally posted by erkut

İ am sorry for war and Lebnanese deaths but there are jews dieing to. And objectively Jews are deffending themselves.
Since we both agreed that Israel and its neighbors are all terrorists. Then why is it Kosher for Israel to kidnap Palestinian parliment representatives, a doctor and his brother before their soldier abduction, and keep many Lebanese prisnors of their infamous occupation of souther Lebanon? Yet it is not Kosher for those "terrorist" groups do the same to the "terrorist state"? It doesn't look to me a very balanced view.
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:09
Yes maybe İsrael is a terorist too. And even you can define her ass a monster but who had created this monster? Since 1948 Araps attacking to İsrael again and again, non-stop. Every jewish family has a victim of teror or war. İf you keep attack to a country more than 50 years and if this country is small peopels could be mad!
İn 1948 there was a perfect solution for peace; İsrael and Palastin were two free country and Jerusalem was international city. But Araps started a war and they lose it, than  they started an other war and they lose it again. Again and again they keep attaked to İsrael. So could you tell me who created this monster?Or who is the real monster?
 
P.S: İ am sorry for war and Lebnanese deaths but there are jews dieing to. And objectively Jews are deffending themselves.


Edited by erkut - 15-Aug-2006 at 18:12
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:09
Hezbollah is a terorist organization! You could show your photos and i could mines but everytime İsrael had fight to defend her self.(1948-1956-1967-1973 and now)
 
Hezbollah didn't come out to this world except in 1982. What is the relationshop of 1948-56-67-73?
 
Also, assuming the sad pictures you presented (which combines different eras) are a proof that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, can we say that the photos he presented of Israel attack on civilians (though he presented only those of Lebanon, leaving 50 years of compiled evidance) is a proof that Israel is also a terrorist state?
 
I doubt you have that objectivity.
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 17:21
 
 
 
 
 
Hezbollah is a terorist organization! You could show your photos and i could mines but everytime İsrael had fight to defend her self.(1948-1956-1967-1973 and now)


Edited by erkut - 15-Aug-2006 at 17:27
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 16:49
Originally posted by malizai_

 Vitamin B6 and potassium supplements are advised.
 
LOL
 
Originally posted by Afghanan

The ceasefire was not implemented by the UN, rather it was implemented by Israel, who is holding all the cards.
 
Very true.
 
Is this your opinion Afghanan? Or from a different source? Im just curious.
If it is yours, Im surprised how organized your own posted article.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 16:37
Originally posted by docyabut

  You have your sources wrong Bush Putain ect. and even the Arabs leaders said hezbollah started this war, not only by  the kidnapping but firing rockets into Israel frist.
 
The Katyusha rockets fired on the kidnapping event were not intended to hit civilian targets more than provide a distracting coverage of the kindnapping plan which worked.
I don't think im debating here who started the war. Does it matter? Israel and Hezbollah are on constant war and if Hezbollah decided that best way to recover Lebanese prisoners by kidnapping Israeli soldiers, then that is a mere military decision. I cannot honestly think of it except an act of war, but again, they are both on a constant war.
Some Arabs leaders occused Hezbollah of taking high risks, and some Jewish big thinkers accused Israel of planting the the operation earlier and the kindapping was an excuse, such as the well known thinker Naom Chomsky. You can find opposing sides to the group tactics in both inside Hezbollah and Israel and inside the Arab world, and the Jews worldwide. It is of no use to the conflict to know that an Arab thinker or leader opposes Hezbollah, as much as a Jewish thinker or leader oppossing Israel.
Targetting cities indifferently which is an indiscrimenate bombardment of civilians targets that Hezbollah has opporated on Israeli cities and settlements has not been put into use except after warning Israel multiple times to stop its indiscriminate strikes on Lebanese civilian targets. We know that both have done the same violation of human right.
I dont have any problem for Israel to target Hezbollah relentlessly because that is what constitutes an arm conflict, but for Israel to cowardly make excuses for its intentional bombing of civilian infrastructure, ambalances, electric and gas stations, roads, UN posts..etc is unnecessarly and does not differenciate Israel from any terrorist group. In fact, Human Watch report on the conflict has clearly pointed the finger on Israel and stated:
 
"The real, unstated reason for Israels attack on the airport may be precisely to impose a cost on Lebanese civilians to encourage them to press their government to rein in Hezbollah. "
 
"Indeed, the logic of attacking civilian morale opens the door to deliberately attacking civilians and civilian objects themselves in short, to terrorism. In addition, international humanitarian law explicitly prohibits attacks of which the primary purpose is to intimidate or instill terror in the civilian population. "
 
That is exactly what Israel has done to Jordan in 1970's to collectively punish and  push Jordanians to kick out the PLO. Strikingly, Israel attacked Amman's airport in the same manner and other civilian targets. The policy Israel adopted here is of extreme similarity. The only difference that the results are different where the Israeli outcomes of using this strategy is actually negative this time.
 
P.S: Putain ect? What do you mean by Putain? I would like you to clarify that, since Putain in french is simply a "bitch" or a "protistute". Something a person of low life can only use this meaning in this forum. Anyhow, you should know too that in communicating to forumers on your posts, you ought to use English only even in a good-faith talk.


Edited by ok ge - 15-Aug-2006 at 16:43
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Posts: 1098 		  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 12:39

My assesment of the Latest War in the Mid-East

Hezbollah, Lebanon, Iran, Syria

Massive Damage, but Hezbollah not Defeated:

The Lebanese country has been destroyed, over 1000 civilians killed, infrastructure damaged to critical levels, economy has been destroyed, environmental damage that will last for over a decade, but the idea of Hezbollah remains stronger than ever.

Strength:

The government of Lebanon will now probably officially curb Lebanon's autonomy in their country but unoficially give their irrevocable support as they now know it is a vital part of their nation's defense. Hezbollah will probably integrate better into the military and they will now begin to fortify their positions in the country.

Iran, Syria, and Lebanon's ties will undoubtedly grow stronger. Muslim world opinion & view of Israel and the US have taken a serious blow, wich favors Hezbollah, Iran, and even Al-Qaeda.

Israel and the US:

Damage & Defeat:

Israel and the US's goal to alienate Hezbollah's support among the Lebanese has failed, and Hezbollah is even more etched in the minds of people in Lebanon.

Israel has been damaged, minor damage to its infrastructure, minimal damage to it's economy, and unknown damage to Olmert's trust among his piers.

Benefits:

They have successfully gauged Lebanon's ground defense and can plan ahead now on how to destroy them. They knew that their current tactics, if left to continue would eventually hurt their economy, so they stopped before the damage on their economy could take place. Very smart move for Isreal. Since the damage to their infrastructure and economy were minimal, they can now invest in more spies & counter intelligence on the ground, which will be a big factor of any ground offensive in the future.

This war has helped the US and Israel find the money trail, which they will say leads directly to Iran and Syria (whether there are more countries involved or not). Iran specifically, where the US and their allies will most likely use this war to signify how Iran poses a threat to security in the region.

Their government stenographers (CNN, Fox News, NY Times, USA Today, etc) will continue to vilify Hezbollah and their supporters for supporting terror and could scare their public in supporting any offensive attack (ie. bombing Iran's nuclear energy site, or other areas, possibly Syria as well) by Israel, or the US.


Psuedo-Ceasefire

The ceasefire was not implemented by the UN, rather it was implemented by Israel, who is holding all the cards.

This ceasefire is not on solid grounds, and the situation can change any minute. While there is a ceasefire, it will not stop Israel or the US from bombing Iran or Syria if they wanted to, and UN peacekeepers could not stop Israel from attacking Lebanon again if it wanted to. This ceasefire could be great cover for Israeli spies to enter Lebanon and further their plans in the region.

Final Thoughts:

Its a victory for Hezbollah, but at massive costs to the Lebanese country and infrastructure.

Its a defeat for Isreal, but a successful gauge on Hezbollah's defenses. Furthermore it's a successful and blatanly bloody warning/reminder to all Arab countries who would think of challenging Isreal.



Edited by Afghanan - 15-Aug-2006 at 12:44
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 10:52
Originally posted by Northman

Originally posted by R_AK47


Hezbollah is obviously a terrorist organization, any attempt to label them otherwise will end in failure. All of the death and destruction that took place in Lebanon is the fault of Hezbollah, not Israel. Hezbollah started the war and after it began, hid like cowards behind Lebanese civilians. Israel was forced to do what it did.


Just arhetorical question if I may:


Madrid andLondonhas beenattacked by groups of local terrorists. They are obviouslythere.According to your logic,Israelis forced to give Spain and Englandthe same treatment as they gave Libanon?



Please excuse my inferior mind but to me what you just said made absolutely no sense. Why would Israel attack Spain and England for being attacked by terroirsts. And these were not local they worked for the name of Al-Queda. Terrorist cells being called up to raise arms against the infidels and such.
    
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Posts: 4262 		  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 10:31
Originally posted by R_AK47

 
Hezbollah is obviously a terrorist organization, any attempt to label them otherwise will end in failure.  All of the death and destruction that took place in Lebanon is the fault of Hezbollah, not Israel.  Hezbollah started the war and after it began, hid like cowards behind Lebanese civilians.  Israel was forced to do what it did. 
 
Just a rhetorical question if I may:
 
Madrid and London has been attacked by groups of local terrorists. They are obviously there.

According to your logic, Israel is forced to give Spain and England the same treatment as they gave Libanon?
 
 


Edited by Northman - 15-Aug-2006 at 10:32
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Originally posted by R_AK47

 
Originally posted by malizai_

 
Originally posted by erkut

Hezbollah is an terrist organization! Do you know what teror means?
 
That is rich, coming from someone who takes G Bush as his moral authority.LOL
 
Let me explain something a lot of CNN/Fox news audience dont understand. Just because the US calls someone a terrorist, communist, anti-freedom blah de blah de blah or whatever, actually doesnt make them so. However US does have a pretty long and powerfull stick with which pretty much everyone falls in line and says: what ever you say boss. So if the big boss says a cat is dog, then it is a dog. That is what u can do if u r a superpower. It would be naive to think of unipolar views in the US media as the only view.
 
//All that i have written is protected by the first ammendment//LOL
 
Hezbollah is obviously a terrorist organization, any attempt to label them otherwise will end in failure.  All of the death and destruction that took place in Lebanon is the fault of Hezbollah, not Israel.  Hezbollah started the war and after it began, hid like cowards behind Lebanese civilians.  Israel was forced to do what it did. 
 
 
 
whatever, we have all seen who did what and who failed. I wouldnt try to change what is obvious to u, since it stems from sensory overload. Vitamin B6 and potassium supplements are advised.


Edited by malizai_ - 15-Aug-2006 at 10:19
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Posts: 468 		  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 10:02
Originally posted by malizai_

 
That is rich, coming from someone who takes G Bush as his moral authority.LOL
 
Let me explain something a lot of CNN/Fox news audience dont understand. Just because the US calls someone a terrorist, communist, anti-freedom blah de blah de blah or whatever, actually doesnt make them so. However US does have a pretty long and powerfull stick with which pretty much everyone falls in line and says: what ever you say boss. So if the big boss says a cat is dog, then it is a dog. That is what u can do if u r a superpower. It would be naive to think of unipolar views in the US media as the only view.
 
 
 
//All that i have written is protected by the first ammendment//LOL
 
 
Hezbollah is obviously a terrorist organization, any attempt to label them otherwise will end in failure.  All of the death and destruction that took place in Lebanon is the fault of Hezbollah, not Israel.  Hezbollah started the war and after it began, hid like cowards behind Lebanese civilians.  Israel was forced to do what it did. 


Edited by R_AK47 - 15-Aug-2006 at 20:06
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make my point?
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 09:48
Originally posted by erkut

Hezbollah is an terrist organization! Do you know what teror means???
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 09:32
Originally posted by erkut

Hezbollah is an terrist organization! Do you know what teror means???








Edited by Leonidas - 15-Aug-2006 at 09:40
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Originally posted by erkut

Hezbollah is an terrist organization! Do you know what teror means???
 
That is rich, coming from someone who takes G Bush as his moral authority.LOL
 
Let me explain something a lot of CNN/Fox news audience dont understand. Just because the US calls someone a terrorist, communist, anti-freedom blah de blah de blah or whatever, actually doesnt make them so. However US does have a pretty long and powerfull stick with which pretty much everyone falls in line and says: what ever you say boss. So if the big boss says a cat is dog, then it is a dog. That is what u can do if u r a superpower. It would be naive to think of unipolar views in the US media as the only view.
 
 
 
//All that i have written is protected by the first ammendment//LOL
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