QuoteReplyTopic: European Press shows solidarity with threatened Danish cartoonist Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 23:37
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by TeldeIndus
From what I know, the complaint was done logically in the Muslim case, but the Danish prime minister refused to meet the amabassadors. Then everything snowballed for some reason.
Why should the Danish PM meet any ambassador on a civil issue that affects only and exclussively segments of the Danish society?
To logically negotiate, and try and find some common ground.
Or do some foreign powers wat to meddle in the affairs of Denmark with this silly excuse?
Do Hindus want to meddle in the affairs of Britain? If not, why protest the stamp with the Hindu man worshipping Mary?
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by TeldeIndus
The Hindu stamp, however, is mild in comparison. If they stuck a picture of Ganesh taking a dump on the stamps, you would probably have irritated some BJP fundies around the world.
I'm pretty sure that you can find a zillion of Hindu iconography used for all kind of purposes from lamps (my parents have a lampt that is God Shiva dancing!) to caricatures and Aquarean marketing.
Get it through your head for the last time for God's sake! Keeping a lamp in your house is private - it has nothing to do with public life, nor will it affect anybody in public life. You can shout, scream, do whatever you want in your own home, and noone will give a damn.
Originally posted by Maju
I know there are Hindu fundies but they compare well with islamic ones so far. I know of no person in Europe or the USA that have suffered their anger, at least in the physical way that Islamists like.
That's your opinion. You might be right, but some people would disagree.
Originally posted by TeldeIndus
Originally posted by Maju
So, we can agree that protesting when insulted is normal, and people have the right to ask for certain things not to be made public. However, we're all against violence of any kind over this (which is perpetrated by a minority of 1.5 billion, probably for political purposes).
So what exactly do we disagree on?
That you minimize the violence attached to Islamist demands.
Most of the protests over the course of the last 4 months have been peaceful. Look up all the protests that have been carried out in the last 4 months and determine which have been violent, which have been peaceful, and about 99% of the protest marches went off without any violence.
Originally posted by Maju
Islamists first threat, then kill and then whim and made up a excuse. So in front of death threats, the cartoons even if of bad taste have gained legitimacy: they have become an expression of freedom and the right to express over any violent menace - which is very real: van Gogh, 2 translators of Rushdie, among others have been killed by those Islamic fanatics.
Alright, carry on then. It's not the solution though. And the cartoons arent freedom of expression, as you clearly suggest in the next sentence of yours. However, I found this well written and researched piece by the BBC.
"On one side of the argument are those for whom freedom of speech is sacrosanct. They argue that it is the mark of the civilised society that renegade voices are heard and defeated only by rational debate, not by gagging. -EDIT -THIS is you (minus the last part as you dont want rational debate).
On the other side lie those for whom it is non-negotiable that all members of society, whatever their skin colour, nation of origin, ethnicity, sexuality or beliefs, are granted equal respect. Prejudice has no place in the public sphere, and that includes the sphere of public discourse. - EDIT -These are ultra-liberals.
What both views gloss over is that in real life there are difficult cases. We may yearn for a simple principle that tells us what is right or wrong in every case, but such principles do not exist. We must be prepared to grapple with the complexity of the world and the competing demands of sometimes incompatible values.
Consider freedom of speech. Hardly anyone actually supports unrestricted freedom to say what we want - EDIT (-except you!). Many of those defending Kilroy-Silk, for example, would be horrified by the extreme freedom of speech in Denmark, where pro-paedophile groups are allowed to speak with impunity. This would be a freedom too far.
But why? In his classic defence of liberty, John Stuart Mill distinguished between offence and harm. We cannot stop people doing or saying anything simply because it offends us. Too many people are offended by too many different things. We should only constrain the liberty of others if what they do causes harm."
We just can't put our pants down: we must fight back! And we are fighting back by saying: you threat, you kill... but you won't shut us up, you are just throwing stones against your own roof.
I havent seen or heard of anyone killed in the West by these cartoons. There's been trouble instigated by people to gain political mileage and win some points on those in government, but if you think it's over the cartoons you're just barking up the wrong tree.
Edited by TeldeIndus
We are not without accomplishment. We have managed to distribute poverty - Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
From what I know, the complaint was done logically in the Muslim case, but the Danish prime minister refused to meet the amabassadors. Then everything snowballed for some reason.
Because some people wanted it to make it a major issue.
Why should the Danish PM meet any ambassador on a civil issue that affects only and exclussively segments of the Danish society?
Or do some foreign powers wat to meddle in the affairs of Denmark with this silly excuse?
The Hindu stamp, however, is mild in comparison. If they stuck a picture of Ganesh taking a dump on the stamps, you would probably have irritated some BJP fundies around the world.
I'm pretty sure that you can find a zillion of Hindu iconography used for all kind of purposes from lamps (my parents have a lampt that is God Shiva dancing!) to caricatures and Aquarean marketing.
I know there are Hindu fundies but they compare well with islamic ones so far. I know of no person in Europe or the USA that have suffered their anger, at least in the physical way that Islamists like.
So, we can agree that protesting when insulted is normal, and people have the right to ask for certain things not to be made public. However, we're all against violence of any kind over this (which is perpetrated by a minority of 1.5 billion, probably for political purposes).
So what exactly do we disagree on?
That you minimize the violence attached to Islamist demands. Islamists first threat, then kill and then whim and made up a excuse. So in front of death threats, the cartoons even if of bad taste have gained legitimacy: they have become an expression of freedom and the right to express over any violent menace - which is very real: van Gogh, 2 translators of Rushdie, among others have been killed by those Islamic fanatics.
We just can't put our pants down: we must fight back! And we are fighting back by saying: you threat, you kill... but you won't shut us up, you are just throwing stones against your own roof.
Let me read over the versus you have taken the time to put on this post and by the way I enjoy the colorful metaphors you use- This forum is not priority for me so I will try and get back Monday.
My point was that compared to the violence I see in the Islamic world today Christian violence pales. I will read those versus and yes I know the old Testament so if you are going where I think you are going then, well let me read them first. I never said that Christians have not had a dark side, what religion hasn't? I do believe that Christian doctrine teaches that we all are born with a sinful nature, unlike the teachings of Islam.
Here is something from Islamreview for you to chew on!!!
The articles do relate to the current events with the cartoons. Oh, are you really in Poland?
Two million Christians and animist slaughtered in Sudan and the list can go on so please don't try to compare.
Rwanda = 1 million alone.
Sudan/Darfur = 100,000-300,000 est., not far from the total for Bosnia.
Originally posted by eaglecap
I am sure there are a lot of yahoo redneck who think they are Christian by birth but no where can they support this type of violence in the Bible but I have read the Koran and it is there.
You must take more of a break from those highly complex calculations you are performing in order to scale the Olympian heights of your esteemed academic profession.
I'm not getting into a pissing contest over this, but what you're missing is context and interpretation. You can interpret something literally, metaphorically and so on, if you want you could interpret the following verse on slander in the Bible literally. If you can find something intelligent to say, I'll reply.
'Ezek 3:17-19 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.'
Or you could interpret all the following verses on slander, literally.
Scriptures for
PERJURY (SLANDER)
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1. Exod 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
2. Exod 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
3. 'Lev 5:1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.'
4. 'Lev 19:12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.'
6. 'Deut 17:12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.'
7. 'Deut 19:15-21 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.'
8. 'Ps 101:5 Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.'
9. 'Prov 5:11 And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed,'
10. 'Zech 8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.'
11. 'Deut 13:1-5 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him, and that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.'
12. 'Deut 18:20-22 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.'
13. 'Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.'
14. 'Jer 1:11-17 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree. Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it. And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying, What seest thou? And I said, I see a seething pot; and the face thereof is toward the north. Then the LORD said unto me, Out of the north an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land. For, lo, I will call all the families of the kingdoms of the north, saith the LORD; and they shall come, and they shall set every one his throne at the entering of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all the walls thereof round about, and against all the cities of Judah. And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands. Thou therefore gird up thy loins, and arise, and speak unto them all that I '
15. 'Jer 5:2,31 And though they say, The LORD liveth; surely they swear falsely. The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?'
16. 'Jer 7:11-22 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD. But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel. And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the LORD, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not; Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh. And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim. Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, '
17. 'Jer 14:13-16 - Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed. And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them. (KJV)'
18. 'Ezek 3:17-19 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.'
19. Lev 19:16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
20. 'Deut 22:13-19 - If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. (KJV)'
21. 'Prov 19:5 - A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape. (KJV)'
22. 'Num 5:11-31 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner; And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled: Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance. And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD: and the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the'
23. 'Josh 7:20-25 And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done: When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it. So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee th'
24. 2 Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
25. '1 Tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.'
26. 'Gen 12:10-20 And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land. And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon: Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive. Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee. And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair. The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels. And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues b'
27. 'Exod 1:15-22 And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty. And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses. And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every'
28. 'Josh 2:1-6 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of sh*ttim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there. And it was told the king of Jericho, saying, Behold, there came men in hither to night of the children of Israel to search out the country. And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country. And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were: And it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark, that the men went out: whither the men went I wot not: pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house, and hid them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order upon the roof.'
29. 'I King 22:19-23 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.'
30. '2 Kings 6:18-20 And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria. And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that Elisha said, LORD, open the eyes of these men, that they may see. And the LORD opened their eyes, and they saw; and, behold, they were in the midst of Samaria.'
31. 'Num 35:30 - Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.'
32. 'Prov 18:8 - The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.'
33. 'Prov 26:20-22 - Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife. The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly. (KJV)'
34. 'Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.'
35. 'Lev 6:2-7 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour; Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found, Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, in the day of his trespass offering. And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: And the priest shall make an atonement for him before t'
36. 'Deut 19:15-21 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.'
37. 'Deut 22:20-21 - But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. (KJV)'
38. 'Matt 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'
39. 'Matt 18:15-20 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.'
40. 'John 7:51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?'
41. '1 Cor 6:1-8 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.'
42. 'Matthew 5:37 - But let your statement be yes, yes, or no, no: and anything beyond these is of evil.'
43. 'Eph 4:25 - Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. (KJV)'
44. 'Acts 5:1-10 - But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt th'
45. 'Deut 19:15-21 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.'
46. 'Matt 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'
47. 'Matt 18:15-20 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.'
48. 'John 7:51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?'
49. 'Matt 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'
50. '1 Cor 6:1-8 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.'
Edited by TeldeIndus
We are not without accomplishment. We have managed to distribute poverty - Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
Are you saying you agree on the murder of a artist because you don't agree with his work?
I don't agree with what they did in drawing those, but killing someone because of what they done to insult you is only going to worsen the situation for you.
about insulting... wht he did is wrong.. but the reason of my question on payment method is.. i read one article... about the taliban was offering 100kg gold for anyone who can kill tht cartoonist.. i just ask for curiousity... is not tht i am gonna kill him... i love my job now... no need to be a murderer...
Good, I knew the artist insulted muslims, and for it they are idiots. but reading what you said almost sounded like you considering it, or I also thought maybe you were just using humor.
In away I'm sure some of the artists didn't think they'd get a reactiong as they did, but I willing to bet all of them regret what they did. I feel bad for them now that they will always have to look over their shoulders and knowing their family may very well be at risk. It's a sad world...
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Lovely map I found on the site, showing the numbers of Christian missionaries working in the world. India you'd expect quite a few mind, having a billion people. Malaysia and Indonesia, the most populated Muslim country are loaded with them it seems.
Pleeeze
You are of course, correct, being the contemporary of Pythagoras himself. Ye must oft knowen about yon attack on fellow professor by doth Christian fundamentalists, has ye not?
There is no comparison between Christian violence in the world today and what is happening today over that cartoon. I am sure there are a lot of yahoo redneck who think they are Christian by birth but no where can they support this type of violence in the Bible but I have read the Koran and it is there. Although, I realize not all Muslims take it to that extreme.
Christain missionaries so what the Muslims have their own!! read this and then tell me about those evil Christian missionaries. I know many Christains and I have even met missionaries and they are very peace loving people and not violent at all.
I think if you will look at who is really behind this articles you will find it is the liberal left who dislike both Christians and conversvatives so your articles are biased but maybe you should only post a few of them so I can read them.
Two million Christians and animist slaughtered in Sudan
and the list can go on so please don't try to compare. I will admit all religions and philosophies have their dark side and Christianity is not exempt from a history of violence we are talking about today and not history.
.
Edited by eaglecap
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
From what I know, the complaint was done logically in the Muslim case, but the Danish prime minister refused to meet the amabassadors. Then everything snowballed for some reason.
The Hindu stamp, however, is mild in comparison. If they stuck a picture of Ganesh taking a dump on the stamps, you would probably have irritated some BJP fundies around the world.
So, we can agree that protesting when insulted is normal, and people have the right to ask for certain things not to be made public. However, we're all against violence of any kind over this (which is perpetrated by a minority of 1.5 billion, probably for political purposes).
So what exactly do we disagree on?
We are not without accomplishment. We have managed to distribute poverty - Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
Telde: your Hinduist complaint is done logically and nowhere there is any threat of violence, like in the other cases. This doesn't exclude Hindus (I guess) from falling in such stupid vicious circle but it definitively shows much more sense... guess it's because they practice yoga...
Whatever...
Regarding the second reply, I said "I would gladly kill him" (not be killed by him or his psychoslaves) and I said "at risk of losing my job" (not "my life" - though we can discuss it).
And it was meant to reply to some forummer who was making stupid jokes with the dead threats. There's no joking with that.
But I'll tell you that I'd gladly kill the mullah who decreed that with my own hands for free - even at risk of losing my job.
I can arrange the transportation for you Maju, but will drop you off on the road 5 mins from the place. Such bravery! pm me when you have everything booked.
We are not without accomplishment. We have managed to distribute poverty - Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
Lovely map I found on the site, showing the numbers of Christian missionaries working in the world. India you'd expect quite a few mind, having a billion people. Malaysia and Indonesia, the most populated Muslim country are loaded with them it seems.
We are not without accomplishment. We have managed to distribute poverty - Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
This one's for Maju. Being insulted, and protesting is nothing peculiar, is it?
Royal Mail's Christmas stamp insults our religion, say Hindus
Posted November 1, 2005 By Rosie Murray-West (Filed: 01/11/2005) The Telegraph
Hindus are demanding that Royal Mail withdraws one of this year's Christmas stamps, claiming the mother and child image it represents is insulting to their religion.
The 68p Christmas stamp, which would be used to send mail to India, features a man and woman with Hindu markings worshipping the infant Christ.
The image is one of a series of six mother and child stamps that go on sale today.
Ramesh Kallidai, secretary general of the Hindu Forum of Britain, said the image was insensitive, because it showed people who were clearly Hindu worshipping Christ.
"It is the equivalent of having a vicar in a dog collar bowing down to Lord Ram on a Diwali stamp," he said. "These things need to be done with sensitivity."
The stamps were drawn from religious images around the world. The Hindu stamp was taken from a picture that hangs in Bombay, India, and was painted in the 17th century.
It is an Indianised version of a European print of The Holy family with St Anne and the two angels, according to the city art gallery. It has a European theme but a Mughal setting.
The entire picture shows St Joseph trying to push aside a huge curtain so that St Anne can behold the baby.
The picture was chosen for Royal Mail by this year's stamp designer, Irene Von Treskow, an Anglican priest in an English-speaking church in Berlin.
She said she was fascinated by the image because it was so interesting to see a Mughal painting with a Christian subject.
She does not believe the picture is offensive. "How can it be?" she asked. "It is 17th-century art."
She said she found the painting in a book and then looked up the image on the internet.
Mr Kallidai said the man in the painting has a "tilak" marking on his forehead, clearly identifying him as a Vaishnava Hindu.
The woman has the traditional "kumkum" mark on her forehead, identifying her as a married Hindu woman. "These are exclusively used by Hindus," he said.
"While many people doubt the authenticity of the age of the painting, we believe that even if this were true, it would be insensitive to use it at a time when the issue of conversions in India has been a subject of heated debate.
"Even if we accept that an artist in 1620 made the mistake of portraying practising Hindus worshipping the infant Christ, we should be asking if this is politically and communally correct in the 21st century."
He said he had called for Royal Mail to issue a Diwali stamp for the Hindu festival of light, which began on Monday, but there had been no response.
"It is striking to see that Royal Mail thinks it prudent to issue Christmas stamps that can cause resentment in the worldwide Hindu community but remains silent on the issuing of stamps for Diwali, the festival of lights celebrated by the third largest faith community in the UK and by a billion Hindus worldwide."
Royal Mail said no offence had been intended. "We thought it would be nice to return to a religious theme," a spokesman said.
Royal Mail Withdraws Christian Stamp with Hindu Images
Posted November 8, 2005 Monday, 07 November , 2005, 20:20 London sify.com PTI
Britains Royal Mail has decided not to further print a Christmas stamp depicting Virgin Mary with traditional Hindu markings like tilak and will ask its branches not to sell the existing ones unless specifically requested, following complaints by the Hindu community in the country.
The Royal Mail, a public limited company, will not carry out a second print run of the stamp, Joanne Davis, External Relations Manager of the company, said on Monday.
"Following a conversation between Barry Gardiner, Minister for Competitiveness, and the Royal Mail, the company has agreed to revise the arrangements for its special issue of 68 pence Christmas stamp," the company said in a statement
It once again apologised for "any unintentional offence" caused to the Hindu community by the images portrayed in the 17th century painting featured on the Christmas stamp.
"The company will now tell Post Office branches not to issue the 68 pence Christmas stamp to customers unless specifically requested. Royal Mail will not carry out a second print run of the stamp. Current stocks will be exhausted in two to three days."
Royal Mail has also said that it would review its procedures to ensure that future images are appropriately screened to avoid unintentional offence to any community in the UK.
The stamp, the basic cost of sending letters to India, had raised severe criticism from Hindu community led by the Hindu Forum of Britain who demanded its withdrawal and then threatened a peaceful agitation after the Royal Mail refused to withdraw the stamp.
The stamp shows the image of a painting dated between 1620 and 1630 AD. It was common for artists of this period to depict imagery and icons of Western Culture including Christian religious imagery.
The composition of the painting is the artists interpretation of the Madonna and child theme and is consistent with other Indian elements within the painting such as clothing and jewellery, the Royal Mail claimed.
"The painting belongs to the collection of the Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya (formerly the Prince of Wales Museum), Mumbai, who have confirmed both the provenance and date of the original image," it said.
We are not without accomplishment. We have managed to distribute poverty - Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
I do not like to see cartoons about any religion but the Arabs have been doing this towards the Jews for while and the media towards Christians but I do not see either of the two religion killing and destroying property today.
You are of course, correct, being the contemporary of Pythagoras himself. Ye must oft knowen about yon attack on fellow professor by doth Christian fundamentalists, has ye not?
Christian Fundamentalists Attack College Professor in Kansas
Posted December 6, 2005 Last update: December 5, 2005 at 10:25 PM LAWRENCE, Kansas Star Tribune
A college professor whose planned course on creationism and intelligent design was canceled after he derided Christian conservatives said he was beaten by two men along a rural road early Monday.
University of Kansas religious studies professor Paul Mirecki said the men referred to the class when they beat him on the head, shoulders and back with their fists, and possibly a metal object, the Lawrence Journal-World reported.
"I didn't know them,'' Mirecki said of his assailants, "but I'm sure they knew me.''
Messages left by the Associated Press on Mirecki's cell phone were not immediately returned.
Sheriff's Lt. Kari Wempe said Mirecki reported the attack just before 7 a.m.
The professor said he confronted the men after they were tailgating his vehicle along a road south of Lawrence. "I'm mostly shaken up, and I got some bruises and sore spots,'' he said.
Mirecki planned to offer a spring course called "Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationism and other Religious Mythologies'' after the Kansas Board of Education decided to include more criticism of evolution in science standards for elementary and secondary students.
Last week, Mirecki asked the university to cancel the class after he created a furor by sending an e-mail to a student organization mocking Christian fundamentalists.
Mirecki had referred to religious conservatives as "fundies,'' and said a course describing intelligent design as mythology would be a "nice slap in their big fat face.'' He has apologized for those comments.
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We are not without accomplishment. We have managed to distribute poverty - Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
about the taliban was offering 100kg gold for anyone who can kill tht cartoonist.. i just ask for curiousity... is not tht i am gonna kill him... i love my job now... no need to be a murderer...
It's not funny. But I'll tell you that I'd gladly kill the mullah who decreed that with my own hands for free - even at risk of losing my job.
I thought Moses was considered a Prophet!! Didn't he write in the Ten Commandments, "Thou shall not kill (murder)" or was that only for the Jews?
I do not like to see cartoons about any religion but the Arabs have been doing this towards the Jews for while and the media towards Christians but I do not see either of the two religion killing and destroying property today.
How am I suppose to accept Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance when I see images like this?????
How can I truly trust their intent when Muslims migrate to my/our nation?
Ok suppose he is punished; fined, fired from work, suspended but killing him is not peaceful or tolerant. Can anyone post where it says in the Koran or Haddith that you cannot make images of the PROPHET OR ALLAH?
I was always taught that God is love-hmmmmm!!!
Now here is an image that yes makes me very angry but it is his free speech right and freedom of expression as long as he does not turn to violence and act it out.
Frankly, my thoughts are it is treason but like I said it is his right to express himself.
Images like this make Americans like myself worry whenever we see immigrants from Muslims nations. Are these artist only representing the reality of what they see in the world today?
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
Are you saying you agree on the murder of a artist because you don't agree with his work?
I don't agree with what they did in drawing those, but killing someone because of what they done to insult you is only going to worsen the situation for you.
about insulting... wht he did is wrong.. but the reason of my question on payment method is.. i read one article... about the taliban was offering 100kg gold for anyone who can kill tht cartoonist.. i just ask for curiousity... is not tht i am gonna kill him... i love my job now... no need to be a murderer...
Are you saying you agree on the murder of a artist because you don't agree with his work?
I don't agree with what they did in drawing those, but killing someone because of what they done to insult you is only going to worsen the situation for you.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Cleric: $1 Million to Kill Cartoonist
By RIAZ KHAN
PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP) - A Pakistani cleric announced Friday a $1 million bounty for killing a cartoonist who drew Prophet Muhammad, as thousands joined street protests and Denmark temporarily closed its embassy and advised its citizens to leave the country.
Police confined the former leader of an Islamic militant group to his home to prevent him from addressing supporters over the cartoons, amid fears he could incite violence, after riots this week killed five people.
Security forces were out in strength, particularly around government offices and Western businesses, as Muslims streamed onto the streets after Friday prayers. More than 200 people were detained, but most gatherings were peaceful.
In neighboring India, police used batons and tear gas to disperse thousands of angry worshippers who rioted in the southern city of Hyderabad. They burned Danish flags, pelted police with stones, and looted shops. Hundreds more protested in Bangladesh.
In the northwestern Pakistan city of Peshawar, prayer leader Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi announced the bounty for killing a cartoonist to about 1,000 people outside the Mohabat Khan mosque.
Qureshi said the mosque and his religious school would give $25,000 and a car, while a local jewelers' association would give another $1 million. No representative of the association was available to confirm it had made the offer.
``This is a unanimous decision by all imams (prayer leaders) of Islam that whoever insults the prophet deserves to be killed and whoever will take this insulting man to his end, will get this prize,'' Qureshi said.
Qureshi did not name any cartoonist in his announcement. He did not appear aware that 12 different people had drawn the pictures.
A Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, first printed the prophet pictures by 12 cartoonists in September. The newspaper has since apologized to Muslims for the cartoons, one of them showing Muhammad wearing a bomb-shaped turban with an ignited fuse. Other Western newspapers, mostly in Europe, have reprinted the pictures, asserting their news value and the right to freedom of expression.
In Islamabad, former U.S. President Bill Clinton criticized the cartoons but said Muslims wasted an opportunity to build better ties with the West by holding violent protests.
``I can tell you, most people in the United States deeply respect Islam ... and most people in Europe do,'' he said on a visit to sign an HIV-AIDS project by his foundation.
Denmark announced it had temporarily closed its embassy in Pakistan. It also advised against all travel to Pakistan and urged Danes still in the country to leave.
``We have decided to do so because of the general security situation in the country,'' Foreign Ministry spokesman Lars Thuesen said.
Denmark has already temporarily closed its embassies in Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Indonesia after anti-Danish protests and threats against staff.
Pakistan, meanwhile, recalled its ambassador to Denmark for ``consultations'' about the cartoons, Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said.
Unrest over the cartoons has spiraled in Pakistan, even as it has ebbed in the rest of Asia and in the Middle East. Big riots in Lahore and Peshawar this week caused millions of dollars in damage, as hundreds of vehicles were burned and protesters targeted numerous U.S. and other foreign-brand businesses, including KFC, McDonald's, Citibank, Holiday Inn and Norwegian cell phone company Telenor.
Intelligence officials have said scores of members of radical and militant Islamic groups, such as Jamaat al-Dawat, joined the unruly protests in Lahore on Tuesday and had incited violence in a bid to undermine President Gen. Pervez Musharraf's government.
On Friday, police confined Jamaat al-Dawat's leader, Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, to his home in Lahore to stop him from addressing supporters in the city of Faisalabad, about 75 miles away, his spokesman Yahya Mujahid said.
Saeed used to lead Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, a militant group closely associated with Jamaat al-Dawat and banned by Musharraf four years ago.
A senior police official in Lahore who confirmed Saeed's detention said the government had ordered police to restrict the movement of all religious leaders who might address rallies and to round up religious activists ``who could be any threat to law and order.''
The official spoke on condition of anonymity as he wasn't authorized to discuss the matter with media because of its sensitivity.
Police used tear gas and batons in isolated incidents at Friday's protests, but generally they were free of violence. About 7,000 protested in Rawalpindi, 5,000 in the southwestern city of Quetta and 5,000 in Karachi.
02/17/06 11:03
Copyright The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
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Topic: European Press shows solidarity with threatened Danish cartoonist
