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Plato`s Atlantis
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plato`s Atlantis
    Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 09:28
What is damn stupid about this is that in the same section (General History) there is another thread about... believe or not... Eden!!! Yes: the Garden of Eden is considered serious history and this discussion on the Bronze Age isn't.

It's truly annoying!

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docyabut View Drop Down
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Posts: 527 		  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 09:05
Historical amusement? Does`nt the administrator know that some of our history is missing , the dark ages. Nothing amuseing about that
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 00:19
Well, I disagree and when I disagree, I do protest. Let me do it may way, please.

I am actually thinking of opening a brand new topic in Ancient Mediterranean and Europe, where it beleongs without doubt and do it with an article explaining my "theory" and also the other mainstream theories on Atlantis.

But not today...

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Posts: 28 		  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 19:56

Maju,

When the one-eyed administrator decided to shift our  scientific thread into "Historical Amusement",  because he is of the opinion that any idea that Platos Atlantis story could be a historical source, could only amuse him, then let him do that. In some years he must change his mind, no doubt. We have similar narrow-minded people also in Germany who do not even allow in the Wikipedia-article "Atlantis" to bring a notice about the International Atlantis Conference in Milos 2005 as an evidence, that many university scientists of today are dealing seriously with the question, if real historic sources could be found in the "Timaeus" and the "Critias".  According to these dogmatics the only correct scientific theory is that the whole story is a 100% invention of Plato, and another theory is not even worth mentioning.

Nevertheless, we should continue our serious debates also at the new location.
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 19:56
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Maju

Who was the &%@#! that moved this topic to Historical amusement? For once that do have a serious debate on this issue! Historical amusement is for things like "what if ..." or stuff like that not for serious ancient proto-history discussion.


The &%@#! was me. I have no idea what you are complaining about, the thread is still open in the original forum. Any discussion about Atlantis belongs into the "Historical Amusement" section, where alternative histories are being discussed.


I strongly disagree because our understading of Atlantis is not any "alternative history" but which is the truth behind it, based on archaeological facts mostly and avoiding speculation as much as possible. It's ridiculous to have such a serious discussion mover to the "circus" section.

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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 19:45
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

About the Lady of Elche I have seen a picture in Tani Jantsang's stuff of an Altaic womans headdress with exactly the same type horns. (I once thought Elche might relate to Elishah/Alashiya (supposedly Cyprus) but now think Elishah may be Hellas.)
About the walls of silver: have any of you looked in to what the oreichalcos was of the Atlantis acct. Spanuth believes it was amber which may fit with Majus theory. I think Zangger was right that it was brass with pseudarguros being zinc.


I have also thought of amber... but I truly have no preference: it might well have been a later literary decoration of the story... based in something but what?

Ilici fits the Iberian pattern of Ili- to mean city. Notice that Iri, Hiri, Uli, Uri are still used in Basque for the same concept: city or town. My guess (following Krutwig) is that the word ultimately comes from SW Asia, where it appears in names such as Jerico (Iriko), Jerusalem (Irisalem), Ilion, Ur, Uruk, Iridu, etc.

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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 19:39
Originally posted by docyabut

Maju, what Mari were you refering to ?



The same you do: Mari the Basque Goddess - aka Anbotoko Mari, aka Murumendiko Mari, etc.

But the Wikipedia article is wrong in some things and specially in the image (that I have already deleted).

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Posts: 527 		  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 15:13

Maju, what Mari were you refering to ?

Rob any pictures.?
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Posts: 937 		  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 02:05
About the Lady of Elche I have seen a picture in Tani Jantsang's stuff of an Altaic womans headdress with exactly the same type horns. (I once thought Elche might relate to Elishah/Alashiya (supposedly Cyprus) but now think Elishah may be Hellas.)
About the walls of silver: have any of you looked in to what the oreichalcos was of the Atlantis acct. Spanuth believes it was amber which may fit with Majus theory. I think Zangger was right that it was brass with pseudarguros being zinc.
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 01:31
Originally posted by Maju

Who was the &%@#! that moved this topic to Historical amusement? For once that do have a serious debate on this issue! Historical amusement is for things like "what if ..." or stuff like that not for serious ancient proto-history discussion.


The &%@#! was me. I have no idea what you are complaining about, the thread is still open in the original forum. Any discussion about Atlantis belongs into the "Historical Amusement" section, where alternative histories are being discussed.
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 23:14
Originally posted by docyabut

maju,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_%28goddess%29



It's wrong. I can tell you that it is an error.

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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 23:08
Who was the &%@#! that moved this topic to Historical amusement? For once that do have a serious debate on this issue!

Historical amusement is for things like "what if ..." or stuff like that not for serious ancient proto-history discussion.


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Posts: 28 		  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 14:50

docyabut, certainly not walls of silver, because then 1,5  tons wouldnt  have been sufficient, but the silver was used to pay the workers.

When we think Tartessos was an heir of Atlantis in the same region - you think it was the same but this is highly unprobable, as discussed already in this thread - the wealth of silver was also a heritage. As Plato wrote, the Atlanteans took orichalcum in value  second to gold, not silver as most other cultures. That means, that they had a great abundance of silver in their area. When they gave 1,5 tons of it to the Greek sailor, it had perhaps a multiplied value in Greece, when the ship arrived home.
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Posts: 527 		  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 10:26

Ulf its the closes description of the city described in Palto writings. The settlement itself was surrounded by three concentric walls.Tartesso  could have been built on similer patten near the sea, by Gades.

As muju said,we just don't know enough about Tartessos.

The Greek historian Strabo wrote of the wealth and great generosity of Arganthonios in the story of a Greek sailor named Koliaos whose ship was blown off course and landed in Tartessos. After being regally entertained for some months, his ship was loaded up with silver and he was sent home. The story also tells how Arganthonios gave the Greeks 1 1/2 tons of silver to build defensive walls to protect themselves from the Persians.

I wonder if that  meant walls of silver.

 
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Posts: 527 		  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 10:05

maju,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_%28goddess%29
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Ulf Richter View Drop Down
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 08:49

docyabut,

I was myself visiting Los Millares and can assure you, that its position has not the slightest similarity with the description Plato has given from Atlantis. You could compare it e.g. with the Etruscan city of Tarquinia or many other fortified places from ancient times, which use the natural slopes above a river valley to construct their city walls.
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 02:34
Originally posted by docyabut

maju.

 Can`nt help but think that tartesso was a extention of this culture.



Of which culture?

We just don't know enough about Tartessos.  El Argar was an extension of Los Millares (but with some clear changes) and post-Argar is somehow in the context of the Tartessian-Orientalizing culture. But all that area falls in the Iberian proper linguistic context not in the Tartessian one, which includes the SW: Lower Andalusia and Southern Portugal. It is believed that Tartessos city belonged to this SW cultural area.

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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 02:20
Originally posted by docyabut

I see no connection with the godness Mari.

 

Goddess of Fertility
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Goddess of Fertility


That is not the Mari I was talking about. I don't know what relation may have this statue to Basque Godess Mari - probably none at all and it's rather a divinity from Mari, the city at the Eufrates, Syria.

Anyhow, I judt can't know wether Iberian and Basque divinities had any connection at all. Just speculating, as we don't know enough about Iberian religion.

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Posts: 527 		  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 00:32
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Posts: 527 		  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 00:28

And look how the head dress looks like the  symbolkeramik bowls bearing oculus motics.

 

 

This page is about the architectural term. See also: eye.
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