Muslim immigration in Scandinavia

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba See, now was it really that hard to accept that there are Christian fundamentalists? Frankly, there are millions of them, most notably the Evangelicals. In Europe, they mostly have problems with Islamic fundamentalism because Europeans tend to be less religious. In the USA, its the opposite, Islamic fundamentalism here is negligible, its the tens of millions of Christian fundamentalists thats the problem. This country is heading in a very bad direction if a man like Mike Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist Minister, was seriously considered for the Republican nomination! Keep religion out of government. Ministers, priests, rabbi's, and mullahs should not be allowed to run for office, any office!

Its really strange how religion is starting to gain power again after the Age of Enlightenment.
Maybe the period we live in will be remembered as a "dark time span of heresy" in a few houndred years (unless we wipe out each other with nuclear warfare). If you look at a some videos of "western" converts to Islam they often talk about spiritual emptiness they experienced as atheists or whatever they were before.

Now If the pope suddenly started talking about a cultural war and called for the crusades against the western world I would certainly be christiano-phobic or whatever it is called anyway .

But getting nervous about fanatics calling for a holy war against the culture I happen to belong to seems quite reasonable to me. Of course there are also right-wing and left-wing extremists and militant animal rights activists, but fortunately they mostly lack the money, power and most importantly the following to really affect the political situation.

But as I mentioned the second generation of muslim immigrants is targeted by these extremists, and with the religion they identify themselves with they form a group that has the potential to influence the whole muslim community.
If right-wing extremists for example had a potential following of that magnitude I would be worried about it too.

I really don't think every muslim is secretly plotting against the western world.
Unfortunately, as seen in the radicalisation of the second generation, they identify with the same group that the extremists belong to and are thereby close to it. And if using their religious beliefs as a political instrument is that easy as it seems, the fundamentalists are far more likely to gain political influence than other extremists.

The real question is how much influence the fundamentalists have in the muslim society.
And this is where we lack unbiased information, because we mostly have the two extremes of either "politically correct" information like for example the crime-reports from sweden which avoid mentioning any religious aspects, or we find what seems to be paranoid right-wing propaganda.

Take this article as an example:
http://www.sullivan-county.com/wcva/londonstan.htm

I really wouldn't want to refer to any website like this for credible information, and it is easy to see why. And this is why I actually started this thread, because I hoped for what you might call "independent insider information".

Originally posted by Van_Möck Its really strange how religion is starting to gain power again after the Age of Enlightenment. Maybe the period we live in will be remembered as a "dark time span of heresy" in a few houndred years (unless we wipe out each other with nuclear warfare). If you look at a some videos of "western" converts to Islam they often talk about spiritual emptiness they experienced as atheists or whatever they were before.

I dont think that religion is gaining power in the developed world, I think its only in a select few countries, notably the United States. I think that most of the developed world is wholly committed to secularism.

Originally posted by Van_Möck Now If the pope suddenly started talking about a cultural war and called for the crusades against the western world I would certainly be christiano-phobic or whatever it is called anyway .

Well, lets hope that the pope goes to jail first of all for concealing child abuse.

Originally posted by Van_Möck But getting nervous about fanatics calling for a holy war against the culture I happen to belong to seems quite reasonable to me. Of course there are also right-wing and left-wing extremists and militant animal rights activists, but fortunately they mostly lack the money, power and most importantly the following to really affect the political situation.

Well, I guess thats the European perspective, but like I said, the threat in Europe isnt necessarily Christian radicalism, but Islamic radicalism. In the US, the threat here is Christian radicalism and they have a lot of money and influence unfortunately.

Originally posted by Van_Möck But as I mentioned the second generation of muslim immigrants is targeted by these extremists, and with the religion they identify themselves with they form a group that has the potential to influence the whole muslim community. If right-wing extremists for example had a potential following of that magnitude I would be worried about it too. I really don't think every muslim is secretly plotting against the western world. Unfortunately, as seen in the radicalisation of the second generation, they identify with the same group that the extremists belong to and are thereby close to it. And if using their religious beliefs as a political instrument is that easy as it seems, the fundamentalists are far more likely to gain political influence than other extremists.

Muslim extremists are right wing. Also, whereas I said before, the United States gets Muslims that are economically middle and upper class (due to strict immigration policies), Europe tends to get the poor Middle Eastern and North African Muslims. These youths growing up in Europe tend to drift towards religion because preachers are so good, as they have been for thousands of years, at using religion to manipulate and control people.

Originally posted by Van_Möck The real question is how much influence the fundamentalists have in the muslim society. And this is where we lack unbiased information, because we mostly have the two extremes of either "politically correct" information like for example the crime-reports from sweden which avoid mentioning any religious aspects, or we find what seems to be paranoid right-wing propaganda. Take this article as an example: http://www.sullivan-county.com/wcva/londonstan.htm I really wouldn't want to refer to any website like this for credible information, and it is easy to see why. And this is why I actually started this thread, because I hoped for what you might call "independent insider information".

Believe it or not, and contrary to what we are told, radical Islam, and by radical Islam I mean the desire for Islamic governments and an Islamic way of life, are very popular throughout the Muslim world, especially in the Arab world and in Iran and Central Asia.

In Iran alone the regime of the Mullahs has at least 20 million hardcore supporters.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 09-Jun-2010 at 16:00

Originally posted by Night Crawler   TGS- we agree on this-I am Christain and very dedicated. However, I will not force my belifs on any one else. Also I don't think that religion should have any place in Government. That being said just becuase some one is a preacher shouldn't disqulify them from Government service. That is saying becuase you are relgiuos you have no place in Government Service and that is just wrong. You are in a sense taking away thier citizenship.

A rabbi, mullah, prist, or minister could not rule in a secular manner, their judgment will always be clouded by their religious beliefs.

I'm not trying to deny anyone their rights, what I'm saying is that you choose your path, either dedicate your life to religion, or politics, but not both. For example, you shouldnt be both a priest and a president, that is the opposite of separation of Church and State.

A person who chooses to be a priest, rabbi, mullah, or minister effectively gives up their right to be a politician in a secular democratic country, by definition.

Wel, I wouldnt completely agree with that statement but I believe that there is still too much religion in government.

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba Islamophobe.

Boy this is getting out of hand so please stop the name calling
Christophobe or Islamphobe please stop it and get back on topic both of you please!

Originally posted by eaglecap Originally posted by Van_Möck Here is an article about a riot that took place yesterday in Stockholm:A few interesting parts:"Stockholm - Up to 100 youths rioted for two straight days in a heavily immigrant suburb of Stockholm, throwing bricks, setting fires and attacking the local police station, police said on Wednesday."They set fire to a school building... They tried to set fire to the police station and other buildings and vehicles, but mostly they have thrown rocks and bricks at police and fire fighters," police spokesperson Mats Eriksson said.[...]"The whole thing started when a group of young adults were not permitted to enter a junior high school dance. They got angry and started throwing rocks through the school windows," Eriksson said."http://www.news24.com/World/News/Riots-rock-Stockholm-suburb-20100609Now from my experience being prevented from joining such an event is nothin unusual. But they took offence and organized as a group, concentrating their anger at the swedish state.What did the firefighters and police do to enrage one houndred people?I guess they would't even have enough manpower to deliberately evoke such an outburst of violence among ethnic swedes. This is truly a clash of culture and for the Muslims who want to be part of Scandinavian culture than bless them. The ones who don't asimilate and want to jam sharia law on the natives then they can go back to the cess pool they came from. I feel the same way about USA and all are welcome if they are willing to accept our laws and greater culture and add to it. Immigration is good to a point but who wants malcontents who will not assimilate. There are a number of Muslims in Tucson, mostly converts, but I agree with TSG that most here are liberal but we still have trouble makes like CAIR. Hooper from CAIR says that Islam is not in America to be equal with other religions or philosophies. I can get along with anyone but when they are a threat to our culture and freedoms than they are not welcomed,anyone including Christians, I don't see the threat with them. We are a sovereign nation so in no way are we obligated to let anyone in and we can pick and choose who immigrants here or really if we had a strong President in office. Sweden, Norway, Germany or even Greece has the same right- borders, language and culture - M. Savage I come back to the Scandinavia countries because that is what this is about and not America but we have a similar problem, Europe is just further down the road than us.

I see it the just the same way.
Actually it seems so obvious that one has to wonder how anybody could argue against it.
But now in Europe some people might get agitated about this view, calling it racist, islamophobic and so on. It seems as if there is some kind of secret competition in political correctness and self-chastisement.
And this is how a responsible and realistic debate is made impossible.
To most people the fear of being discredited by moralists is just too great. Unfortunately the people who don't care about it are often from the extreme right-wing political spectrum, so the whole open discussion is running in circles, as soon as it begins.

But if the things continue the way they are going now, according to the critical observers, the situation will escalate.

I love this quote from Muslims against Sharia law, which speaks volumes. I welcome these Muslim wherever they go.

Brothers and Sisters!
Do not make the next generation of Muslims clean up your mess!
Fight Islamic Fascism now, so your children won't have to!

http://www.reformislam.org/