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Topic: Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide? Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 23:09
Originally posted by Artaxiad
In your opinion does the Hiroshima bombing (200,000 dead) deserve to be called a Japanese Genocide?
There is a difference... It was the tragic consenquence of a war between two countries, United States and Japan.
In the Ottoman Empire, Ottoman Armenian citizens were killed by their own government which was supposed to protect them during the War...
Artaxiad, still the same stuff you wrote in the other topic, do you write all those similar things in different topics often?
1-Ottoman Empire did nothing until the Armenians themselves declared a total support for the Entente powers and practically began working for this cause.
Protection for the citizens who fought amongside the enemy? Protection from what? Protection from whom? It was the Ottoman Empire who needed protection,actually.
2-Ottoman soldiers didn't make any systematic killings, the deaths happened were result of poor conditions of relocation.
And the poor Ottoman Empire, who didn't even have food and cloth for its own army, was not really able to change those poor conditions
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
I am just answering these as you quoted me here...As I said before, every topic is tried to be drawn to the same subjects under different topics..
But no only one of them was started by an Armenian.
There are zillions of historians giving different numbers on the population, but even the neutral sources' maximum limits are around 1.5 millions...I will give more details about it later, I dont have my books with me right now...
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Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 23:19
I had put a copy paste here before but I will change that long article and just give links instead.Articles and passages written by non-Turk/non-Armenian neutral sources.All from the same site,but they had done a good job deriving the works of different experts of the subject.
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Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 23:22
Originally posted by Artaxiad
I am just answering these as you quoted me here...As I said before, every topic is tried to be drawn to the same subjects under different topics..
But no only one of them was started by an Armenian.
There are zillions of historians giving different numbers on the population, but even the neutral sources' maximum limits are around 1.5 millions...I will give more details about it later, I dont have my books with me right now...
That Fein starts his article with the phrase "Genocide? No!" Why would anyone read something that start with that.
It's obvious that it was a genocide. You don't even have to kill people
to commit a genocide. In fact the problem is not that it was just a
simple genocide at the cultural level for instance. The problem is that
it entered the dynamics of democide: KILLING OR DISPLACING ALL
ARMENIANS in Turk-controlled territory.
The question is not if it was genocide. Genocide is what the Basque
people is suffering: aculturization is genocide at it's less violent
level. The question is what type of genocide was that? How violent and
intense it was. But genocide, sure it was. It was genocide too the
expulsion of Greeks, it is genocide the assimilation of Kurds...
Genocide is anything that is adressed to destroy an ethnical community.
And I'm abiding by the UN definition.
The case of Armenians was just one genocide like so many: the Armenian case was a major criminal genocide.
It's the only in its kind? Nope, surely not. But it's one of the most
striking genocides of the 20th century, probably just after the
Holocaust and few others.
"And Mamikon, do you have any other reliable sources than teachgenocide.org"
will more than a hundred New York times articles from 1915 suffice?
lol...ATAA.org, Assembly of Turkish American Association, did I not
clearly specify no turkish sites...my my my thats a nice collection of
"authors" on the Turkish payroll.And what do you know, the thousands of
historians who admit the genocide are not paid by the Armenian
Government. Is it possible you cant find any
non-Turkish sites? try harder you should find Lewy's site, and oh
happiness.
Oh and I think it was McCarthy who was at first saying that more than
1.5 million Armenians died in Ottoman Empire. Then a quick visit to
Turkey and (ahem) a fat check, and he "remembered" some stuff he
"omitted" when he came to his first conclusions.
Come on now, do you think members on these boards will believe the
nonsense that you are posting? (but if it makes you feel good, or you
believe you just disproved what your government has been trying to
disprove for the past 90 years, post away )
That Fein starts his article with the phrase "Genocide? No!" Why would anyone read something that start with that.
It's obvious that it was a genocide. You don't even have to kill people to commit a genocide. In fact the problem is not that it was just a simple genocide at the cultural level for instance. The problem is that it entered the dynamics of democide: KILLING OR DISPLACING ALL ARMENIANS in Turk-controlled territory.
The question is not if it was genocide. Genocide is what the Basque people is suffering: aculturization is genocide at it's less violent level. The question is what type of genocide was that? How violent and intense it was. But genocide, sure it was. It was genocide too the expulsion of Greeks, it is genocide the assimilation of Kurds... Genocide is anything that is adressed to destroy an ethnical community. And I'm abiding by the UN definition.
The case of Armenians was just one genocide like so many: the Armenian case was a major criminal genocide.
It's the only in its kind? Nope, surely not. But it's one of the most striking genocides of the 20th century, probably just after the Holocaust and few others.
Should you go into a conversation when i and rest starts with "No youre dumb, youre obviously dumb everyone believes, accepted that!"
What kind of job have you? Are you a cop? Directing someone with "force" to accept something without listening to the other side of the story? Sorry youre a bad cop.
And also what i didnt get of you is "Palestines trowing with stones while the Israelites shot with guns, waaaaa waaa waaaa" Ok the situation is maybe wrong but what did youre ancestors with native americans? Didnt they used guns against bows? Hadnt they occupied their lands illegaly? Cant we speak of a "genocide" today about what did happin there? Does spain speaks of a "native american genocide" today?
Before speaking a word about someone else look into a mirror, if you havent a one pm me ill send you one for free.
The case of Armenians was just one genocide like so many: the Armenian case was a major criminal genocide.
It's the only in its kind? Nope, surely not. But it's one of the most striking genocides of the 20th century, probably just after the Holocaust and few others.
Is the killing and ethnic purging of Turks by Armenians and Russian anot a genocide?
Why do you choose to focus on the deaths of Armenians only? Is it because they are christian and you identify more closely with them?
first
of all, teach Genocide site has is not made by Armenians,
run by Armenians, funded by Armenians. It is a tool to teach about the
Genocides, all Genocides, not just the Armenian. It does containt some
interesting documens from New York times, eh? for those really
interested in the Genocide I recommend Vahakn Dadrian's book, which has
received numerous prasies for the scholarly community, unlike McCarthy
there, who has received praises from the government of Turkey
are you still searching for non-Turksish sites?
I dont really see any reason to discuss this...you dont want to believe
that the massacres constitute a Genocide fine I can do nothing about
that, most people here do reognize it, so if you are hoping to disprove
the genocide by making this thread, you are severly mistaken my
friend...you are not going to change anyone's mind on these boards.
Especially with the "evidence" you are supplying...
Come on now, do you think members on these boards will believe the nonsense that you are posting?
Sources.....only one of you has posted a source
Look previous page. Read non-Turkish history books...
what about Bryce, Morgenthay, Tonybee,
Genocide: A Critical Bibliographic Review, Vols. 1 & 2 Jerusalem: Institute on the Holocaust
and Genocide, 1991
Genocide in our Time: An Annotated Bibliography with Analytical Introduction Dobkowski,
Michael N., and Isidor Wallimann. Ann Arbor, MI: Pierian Press, 1992
The Deportation and Massacres of the Armenian Population of the Ottoman Empire,
1915- 1922: Bibliography of non-Armenian sources. Hovannisian, Richard. University of
California, LA, pp. 180-192
The Dark Side of Democracy Explaining Ethnic Cleansing, Michael Mann
In your opinion does the Hiroshima bombing (200,000 dead) deserve to be called a Japanese Genocide?
There is a difference... It was the tragic consenquence of a war between two countries, United States and Japan.
In the Ottoman Empire, Ottoman Armenian citizens were killed by their own government which was supposed to protect them during the War...
Armenia was a de facto state at the time, and the "liberation" was about to be formalized by the Treaty of Sevres. Are you by any chance suggesting that occupying a country's territory is not an act of war?
Here is how Turkey looked in 1917-1918:
Is declaring a state on the territories of the ottoman empire not an act of war in your opinion?
Even armenian sources openly acnowledge the war between the ottomans and the armenians:
Please, note the parts in bold. Do they in your opinion not constitute an act of war against the Ottoman Empire?
The Resurrection of Armenia
The Defence of Transcaucasia (1917-1918)
There were various reasons for the revolution which took place in February 1917 and resulted in the fall of the tsar; foremost amongst these, however, was the Russian inability to create a unanimous and living organism of the union of its different peoples. Unlike the leaders of the British Empire, Russia had not been able to understand how it could facilitate the specific characteristics and features of the respective ethnic populations, and adapt itself to their demographic, rather than insisting that they conform to the Russian ideal.
The February Revolution in Russia brought liberal and socialist forces to power. A temporary government, under the leadership of men such as Lvov, Milionkof and later Kerensky, was established in St Petersburg, men who had always shown interest in the Armenian Question.
During the war, these leaders kept Russia on the side of the allied forces, and tried to create a democratic rule in Russia. Towards the non-Russian peoples they pursued a liberal policy and promised them self-governance, but only recognised the independence and establishment of separate governments of three nations, namely Finland, Poland and Armenia.
The February Revolution brought a period of freedom to some parts of the empire, and officially conferred rule of the liberated parts of Western Armenia to the Armenians.
The October Revolution brought to an end the short-lived government, with the communists taking power. The defeat of Russian democracy, as in 1907, was inevitable as the Russians, unlike the Armenians, were not prepared to fight to preserve democracy. 4
In Transcaucasia, and other border regions of the empire, the communists failed to gain power. The election for the Russian Duma showed a clear preference for the Dashnak party in the Armenian provinces, for the Mensheviks (Georgian social democrats) in Georgia, and for the Mussavat Party in the Tatar populated provinces.
After the fall of the temporary government in St Petersburg, the above three parties refused to join the new communist rule, instead building a temporary government in Transcaucasia, the Caucasian Commissioner. They also created a Caucasian parliament (Seim), wherein the different parties received mandates in relation to the number of votes they received. The arrangement, however, was merely transitory in the eyes of the powerful in the Caucasus, for the Armenians and the Georgians did not want independence for Transcaucasia, but rather self-governing provinces, integrated into a federal Russia. The Russian Caucasian army, which occupied the liberated Western Armenian provinces, was in disorder and rapidly disintegrating, and the Russian soldiers deserted to return to their homes. The first task of the new Caucasian government, limited though its means were, was to gather an army which could maintain the Turkish front. Since the Tatars refused to fight their Turkish cousins and the Georgian Mensheviks were under the sway of an inconvenient and illogical pacifism, the entire burden of the war fell upon the shoulders of the Armenians.Winston Churchill writes: At the beginning of 1918 the Russian army abandoned the front in Asia Minor and became a scattered flock whose only desire was to return home. Russians left the front very quickly and the Turks had not yet advanced. The Armenians who stayed behind made a desperate attempt to defend their country, Armenia, and the Armenians in the Russian army gathered and, with the volunteer units, for a time, were able to stop the Turkish advance. Of the 150 000 soldiers that the Armenians had supplied to the Russian army, all had fallen in battle or were scattered over the empire, so that the Armenians were not able to gather more than 35 000 men. 5
At the start of 1918, the Armenian army, continuing in Armenian military traditions, the hope and the condition for an independent Armenian government, took up position at the Western Armenian front. The Armenian army was led by commanders such as General Nazarbekian, General Andranik (known as the Armenian Garibaldi) and Colonel Morel, the Russian officer who was its founder and protector. The army fought without respite to defend Western Armenia and Transcaucasia, a 400 km front, against the Turkish army. General Brehman subsequently recorded: The efforts of the Armenians at this remote front has been concealed from the European general public, but their place in history should be assured with the heroic deeds carried out during these battles, and the difficulties of providing food and provision, and communication in a landscape with high mountains and a merciless enemy, which in number of soldiers had a crushing advantage, and this in a region that had been closed off from the rest of the world and in which the people fought despite the fact that their doom had been long coming, and were subject to massacres and genocide. 6
H. Barby, military correspondent for a newspaper in Paris, who was an eyewitness to the battles, describes them thus: The uneven battle between the Turkish army, with its huge advantage in number of soldiers and modern equipment, and the Armenian army had started and would continue for seven or nine months, as the heroic defence of Baku held until the middle of September 1918. During this time, the Armenians were far away from their allies, and the provisions which they promised to send to them never arrived, and in this difficult and sad moment the Georgians abandoned them, while their other neighbours, the Kurds and the Tatars, constantly sabotaged their work. Despite all this, this martyr nation of Christianity heroically resisted, of course not in the hope of an outright victory over the Turks, but in the hope that they would delay their advance towards the territory of Transcaucasia until the sounding of the bell for the allied victory.7
The Armenian army first defended Erzinjan (February 1918), then Erzurum (March 1918) against the Turkish army. The leaders of the Young Turks concentrated their elite units at this front, hoping to be able to achieve their dream of Pan Turanism. 8 With the lack of movement of the British forces in Mesopotamia, around 400 000 soldiers, who after the conquest of Baghdad in 1917 did not advance towards Mosul in order to join the Armenian army at Lake Van, the entire weight of this front fell to the Armenians. Having done all it could against the Turkish reserve forces, which were constantly replaced, the Armenian army was forced to retreat to the old Russian-Ottoman border of 1914. 9
Meanwhile, on January 13, 1918, Lenin, in the name of the Soviet government, declared Western Armenia independent. The communist government had inherited the Armenian Question from the tsarist regime, and as all Russian revolutionary parties were in support, on January 27, 1918, the Pan Russian Soviet recognised the independence of Armenia and Finland.
However, at the negotiations at Brest-Litovsk, in March 1918, when Russia withdrew from the First Word War, Russia was forced to accept the terms dictated by Germany for Armenia. The terms guaranteed the rule of Turks, ally of Germany, over Western Armenia, and also over a part of Eastern Armenia, namely Kars and Ardahan.
Turkish forces continued their advance towards Transcaucasia and, following bloody battles in Sarighamish and Voroshan, entered Kars on April 25.
The independent government of Transcaucasia, on advice from the allies whose forces were too distant to offer assistance, was forced to hand over Kars, Ardahan and Batum to Turkey. When the peace negotiations in Batum started in May 1918, between Turkey, its allies, and the government of Transcaucasia, the Turks presented terms which were considerably tougher than the terms agreed to in the Brest-Litovsk Treaty. The terms included the disintegration of what remained of Eastern Armenia, and the Turkish advance to Baku.
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 11:13
Originally posted by mamikon
Come on now, do you think members on these boards will believe the nonsense that you are posting? (but if it makes you feel good, or you believe you just disproved what your government has been trying to disprove for the past 90 years, post away )
Is that the common manner of discussion of Armenians when it comes to this matter?
I post the stuff, believing it or not is left to the members and you are not the one to judge it.
Now, go try finding some more sites like the ones you had found before and write your ideas in a blog instead of a forum, entertain yourself, if you don't want to see anymore of these
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 11:21
Originally posted by mamikon
"ATAA.org, Assembly of Turkish American Association, did I not clearly specify no turkish sites...my my my thats a nice collection of "authors" on the Turkish payroll.And what do you know, the thousands of historians who admit the genocide are not paid by the Armenian Government. Is it possible you cant find any non-Turkish sites? try harder you should find Lewy's site, and oh happiness.
When it comes to Armenian side, the non-Armenian writers supporting Armenian thesis are considered as "neutral", but when it comes to Turkish side, all the international writers who deny Armenian claims, are etiquetted as "Authors on Turkish payroll"...What kind of a mentality is this?
ATAA.org is a Turkish site, but I gave specific links inside that site, articles and book passages by non-Turkish writers.
If you believe the sites are so trustable, go look about 1 million sites in google made by the diaspora...The Armenians are making a worldwide fight to make it seem like a "genocide" had happened, Turks don't bother to prove that they are right...
On those sites, there are such funny fakes...In one of them, Atatrk was claimed to be doing interview with a foreign journalist and he was so-calledly telling that a genocide had happened...Later the facts showed that this so-called journalist who made the interview was in his childhood at the time the interview was claimed to be done..
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
"ATAA.org, Assembly of Turkish
American Association, did I not clearly specify no turkish sites...my
my my thats a nice collection of "authors" on the Turkish payroll.And
what do you know, the thousands of historians who admit the genocide
are not paid by the Armenian Government. Is it possible you cant find
any non-Turkish sites? try harder you should find Lewy's site, and oh
happiness.
When it comes to Armenian side, the non-Armenian writers supporting
Armenian thesis are considered as "neutral", but when it comes to
Turkish side, all the international writers who deny Armenian claims,
are etiquetted as "Authors on Turkish payroll"...What kind of a
mentality is this?
ATAA.org is a Turkish site, but I gave specific links inside that site, articles and book passages by non-Turkish writers.
If you believe the sites are so trustable, go look about 1 million
sites in google made by the diaspora...The Armenians are making a
worldwide fight to make it seem like a "genocide" had happened, Turks
don't bother to prove that they are right...
On those sites, there are such funny fakes...In
one of them, Atatrk was claimed to be doing interview with a foreign
journalist and he was so-calledly telling that a genocide had
happened...Later the facts showed that this so-called journalist who
made the interview was in his childhood at the time the interview was
claimed to be done..
umm...because there is an actual proof that they get money from the Turkish government.
plus, bg-Turk the treaty of Sevres was in 1920. And it has
nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide, which occurred 5 years
earlier, maybe if they hadnt killed the Armenians they would have won
the war...
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 18:21
Originally posted by mamikon
umm...because there is an actual proof that they get money from the Turkish government.
plus, bg-Turk the treaty of Sevres was in 1920. And it has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide, which occurred 5 years earlier, maybe if they hadnt killed the Armenians they would have won the war...
on which sites...?
If they hadnt killed the Armenians they would have won the war???What is this,gal, read some WW I history instead of just focusing yourself on Armenian claims...
Where is this actual proof?
Then I claim here that diaspora is paying to thousands of historians, and also make a website and make that remark there either, does this make it true?
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
"If they hadnt killed the Armenians they would have won the war"
greater population, more people with skill. U cant really expect to
kill 10% of your population and expect in your toughest times and
expect a victory. Just a hypotetical statement.
"Then I claim here that diaspora is paying to thousands of historians,
and also make a website and make that remark there either, does this
make it true?"
what if I tell you that its a fact that Turkey mays McCarthy to write his articles?
I go back to my point. You cant make me, other Armenians and any
non-Turks on this board to believe that the Armenian Genocide never
took place.
That Fein starts his article with the phrase "Genocide? No!" Why would anyone read something that start with that.
It's
obvious that it was a genocide. You don't even have to kill people to
commit a genocide. In fact the problem is not that it was just a simple
genocide at the cultural level for instance. The problem is that it
entered the dynamics of democide: KILLING OR DISPLACING ALL ARMENIANS
in Turk-controlled territory.
The question is not if it was
genocide. Genocide is what the Basque people is suffering:
aculturization is genocide at it's less violent level. The question is
what type of genocide was that? How violent and intense it was. But
genocide, sure it was. It was genocide too the expulsion of Greeks, it
is genocide the assimilation of Kurds... Genocide is anything that is
adressed to destroy an ethnical community. And I'm abiding by the UN
definition.
The case of Armenians was just one genocide like so many: the Armenian case was a major criminal genocide.
It's
the only in its kind? Nope, surely not. But it's one of the most
striking genocides of the 20th century, probably just after the
Holocaust and few others.
Should you go into a
conversation when i and rest starts with "No youre dumb, youre
obviously dumb everyone believes, accepted that!"
What kind of job have you? Are you a cop? Directing someone with
"force" to accept something without listening to the other side of the
story? Sorry youre a bad cop.
And also what i didnt get of you is "Palestines trowing with stones while the Israelites shot with guns, waaaaa waaa waaaa"
Ok the situation is maybe wrong but what did youre ancestors with
native americans? Didnt they used guns against bows? Hadnt
they occupied their lands illegaly? Cant we speak of a "genocide"
today about what did happin there? Does spain speaks of a "native
american genocide" today?
Before speaking a word about someone else look into a mirror, if you havent a one pm me ill send you one for free.
You're flipping man: I am not any cop (I would never work in such
repressive profession and my union doens't allow cops nor soldiers nor
private guards) and I am not Nordamerican. If you have read other posts
of mine, you will see that I have normally spoken against all types of
genocides and definitively I have spoken of Native American genocide,
as it was such.
So before you start making such ad-hominem attacks, think twice.
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