Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide?
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Topic: Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide?
Posted By: bg_turk
Subject: Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide?
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 10:12
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The massacres against innocent armenians is a fact which is undeniable. In this sense it is completely nonsensical to argue that those killings have not occurred. What I think is unacceptable to most turks is that those killings are qualified as genocide. Because another undeniable fact, which is often never told in western media, is related to why those massacres occurred. Had armenian exremists not chosen to exploit the russian occupation, and attack turkish villages, maybe those massacres would not have occurred at all. I have many turkish friends coming from the east that can testify how parts of their families were slaughtered by armenian gangs. This is by no means justifies the treatment of armenians, but it just shows that those killings cannot be classified as genocide, because the aim of the turkish state was not extermination of all armenians, but rather to stop seperatists trying to carve out a huge chunk of territory and in the process many innocent armenians were killed. Whereas the killings during the Holocaust were completely unjustified since the Jews posed no danger to Germany and it territorial integrity, the armenian extremist posed a direct and very acute threat to Turkey in its worst moment, when it was itself under occupation, and the turkish nation was faced with extermination from all sides. At this time as much as a million turks had died on the frontline, half of them in Gallipoli, and another significant chunk of civilians. For turks it was a fight for survival, and in their desperation turks save themselves they just went too far and killed many innocent armenians. It is a typical turkish feature to use disproprtionate force when provoked unfortunately. A friend of mine who comes from Adana told me a story from her grandfather. Her grandafather recalled that at the time most muslims were supposed to go to the front and fight the invading russian armies, so most of the muslim villages were just left with the women, children and elderly. Christians were not required to join the army. Armenian extremists gangs tried to exploit the moment to establish their long-cherished state and attacked muslim villages. My friend says many of her relatives were slaughtered by their armenian neighbours. When the men returned from the frontline, and they could not find any of their families, they took revenge from the armenians. The killings were horrible and many armenians died. Call it mutual massacres, but i doubt you can call it a genocide. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Replies:
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 15:03
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not this thread again..its going to banned in like 2 days but anyway. First off, Turkey decided to go to war, It didnt have to. In fact the most sensible action would have been to stay out, let the Europeans destroy each other then reconquer Balkans if they chose. Second, it has been proven again and again that Armenian men in fact did fight in the Ottoman army. They were put to hard labor in 1915 and then slaughtered. You quote is basically what every Turk has been saying on these boards as long as I have been here (and proably longer). The Turkish governemtn blamed everything on Armenians. Enver attacks Russia with 100,000 troops comes back with 15,000 and blames Armenians. Ironically, I heard he was rescued by an Armenian contigninet (I am not sure if the source was reliable or not, someone could expand on it though). Armenians were round up from EVERYWHERE in Turkey. Even in central Anatolia. The deportation were organized by the Turkish government and the plan was to annahilate Armenians. Historical sources put Turkish deaths by the hands or Armenians in mere thousands (less than 10,000) while 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered. When some idiots of a community start going nuts u dont kill the whole community. There was no Armenian threat, Armenians were supportive of the Ottomans. The threat was perceived by the Turkish Government just as the Jewish threat was perceived (Jews are going to destroy Germany or something like that) by the German Nazists. |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 16:31
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why is it going to be banned? Can you not discuss the armenian issue on this forum? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 17:08
Exactly.
Is this a joke?
I am not sure, but I think non-Muslims were not able to join the Ottoman Army.
No, Ottomans intended to re-locate the Armenians within the Empire's border.
That number is a joke. We are talking about an empire which was on the brink of its own destruction. Ottomans couldn't kill that much people even if they really wanted to.
Oh, most certainly there was. Armenians helped Russians invade Eastern Anatolia, hoping to be independent in the end. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 17:42
Yes you can. And I hope this is the first topic on the issue that doesn't end in a flame war. For the case anyone has doubts, here's the http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6512&PN=1 - Code of Conduct . ------------- 
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 20:24
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After the constitutional revolution of 1908 Christians had to serve in the Ottoman army. The Ottoman Armenian men who might have been able to defend their families and towns were killed when they where forced into arduous work in labour camps. The uprising of Van was similar to the Warsaw ghetto uprising. It was an act of self defense against those who wanted to eliminate them once and for all. http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1915/bryce/ - http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1915/bryce/ The Vilayet of Van had a higher percentage of Armenians in its population than any other province of the Ottoman Empire ; it was also the border province of the north-eastern frontier, towards Russian and Persian territory, and as such was the earliest to be exposed to invasion after the breakdown of the Turkish offensive against the Caucasus in the winter of 1914-1915. The documents contained in this section give a detailed and perfectly self-consistent account, from five independent sources, of those events at Van which led to the first open breach between the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire and the Turks, and which gave the Government a pretext for extending the scheme of deportation already operative in Cilicia to the whole Armenian population under its jurisdiction. The evidence makes it clear that there was no unprovoked insurrection of the Armenians at Van, as the Ottoman Government asserts in its official apologia. The Armenians only took up arms in self-defence, and the entire responsibility for the outbreak rests with Djevdet Bey, the local governor-whether he was acting on his own initiative or was simply carrying out instructions from Constantinople. |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 23:54
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"Oh, most certainly there was. Armenians helped Russians invade Eastern Anatolia, hoping to be independent in the end.
" By the time Russia counterattacked Enver's attack genocide was already in full course. You are confusing westerna dn eastern Armenians. Eastern Armenians fought alongside the Russians for obvious reasons. And during 1916 and 1917, those who survived the Genocide fought alongside the Eastern Armenians and Russians I do not understand why you brought up this subject again. You do not even have any sources to back up your arguments, except those of turkish historians, and a handful of western historians who are on a Turkish payroll... |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 10:18
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This is how Turkey looked like in 1920 according to the Sevres Treaty:
Russian attacks on Turkey and the Armenian collaboration are well documented, they started much earlier than the alleged genocide:
What saved Turks from the catastrophe of Sevres, was the inconsistent policy of the Russians, and their witdhrawal as a result of the Bolsevik revolution. Dashnak, an armenian political party formed in Georgia in 1890 much before the alleged genocide took place, had as an aim to "liberate" Armenia from the ottoman empire. Their terror activities against the local muslims and collaboration with the Russians are undeniable facts, which the armenian side often plays down. Images from the era: Armenians collaborating with Russians during the occupation of Van:
Armenian rebells:
Armenian rebells during the Van rebellion:
There are very gruesome pictures of mutilated and killed turks, which I will not post here.
In any case I do not deny any of the massacres against the armenians, they undoubtedly occured, many innocent people were killed. What I cannot tolerate is the one sided picture armenians like to paint, and deny the killings and massacres against the local muslim population. Ottoman archives are full of references describing massacres against the muslims of eastern anatolia, these are undeniable facts, and with time they will be known to the west as well. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 10:25
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What annoys me almost as much as the Turkish denial of the Armenian massacre, is the "We did nothing but if we did we would have been more than justified to do so" attitute of many (luckily not all) Turks. Even if it were true that the Armenians were supporting a Russian invasion, such a thing does not justify killing off hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Apart from that one could also wonder why Armenians wanted to shake off Turkish rule.
------------- |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 10:59
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What annoys me most is the arrogance of some people who while accusing turks of denialsim, are themselves in complete denial of the turkish victims. Yes Turks and Kurds massacred and killed armenians in cold blood, I am not denying it. You are the ones denying your own crimes. The armenian massacres against the Turks is an undeniable fact, there are hundreds of witnesses of these events that are ready to testify, people who have lost relatives as a result of the armenian war of liberation, but their testimonies are conveniently ignored or bipassed, and we will make absolutely sure that their voice is heard as well! I personally know people who grandaparents have been murdered by ARMENIAN gangs during the period while their husbands who were supposed to protect them were on the frontline fighting the Russians. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 12:30
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Dashnaks had nothing to do with Armenians in Turkey. They were based in Tbilisi, Georgia and were a radical group with a minute level of followers. And the defense of Van was a struggle for survival not a rebellion. No one is saying Turks did not die too. Yes, there were Turkish death, by Armenian gangs (from Eastern Armenia mainly). And that gives you the right to exterminate the whole population? It has been proven over and over again that Western Armenian men were in the front lines (later in labor camps) in teh Ottoman Army. You are just spewing the same stuff every Turkish denialist has spewed for the past 80 years. People are not stupid. There was a Genocide whether you would want to admit or not. "I personally know people who grandaparents have been murdered by ARMENIAN gangs during the period while their husbands who were supposed to protect them were on the frontline fighting the Russians" Well I personally know HUNDREDS of Armenians who have lost relatives in the Genocide. Every Armenian I tlaked to in the Diaspora said they have lost most of their family members in the Genocide. The fact still stands that you have absolutley nothing authentic to presesnt as evidence to support your arguments. |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 05:15
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If there are killings it will not be called a genocide-you have to prove it was systematic and on government order-which is quite impossible, since there are no documents on it ------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 05:20
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Yes-facts wear out if you use them too much don't they? Anyway we don't have to prove squat because you are the accusers-and your claims have little evidence to support them-only "this happened, that happened".When the Armenian genocide is officially documented, proofs listed and acepted and recognised worldwide and starts getting taught in schools-let me know ------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 06:39
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First, I suggest you to go find a good book covering the history of WW I...Then you will see it was impossible for Ottoman Empire forever. And if they had been sooo useful for the Ottoman Empire and put hard labor, why they were relocated? Of course for serving the Allied powers with all their hearts, there is no need to deny this proven fact... Your words are basically what every Armenian says in return like every Turk saying the same, so this topic is also going nowhere.
Turkish deaths in mere thousands???Turkish mortality rate was more than Armenian mortality rate in Eastern Ottoman provinces..What kind of neutrality does this historical sources have? Armenians supportive of the Ottomans???Well, I believe we are not playing FRP here, so there is no need to deny the facts.Armenian parliamentarians personally even joined the groups killing the Turkish folk.And both Hinchak,Tashnak,the parliamentarians state their aims.Look at Talaat Pasha thread for this.
------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 07:33
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Ah, right... just another "we did slaughter the Armenians but, you know, they started first". There is a strong feeling among resident Turks on the wording non-Turks (all of us) use for this "incident": we use the word "genocide" and they seem to believe that if we do not, the whole thing becomes just another "dealing" with the "dissents". Well, I am teribly sorry, but slaughtering 650.000 (this is the more modest estimation of the Armenians dead during the death marches and it is from some quasi-proTurk sources) to 1.5 million (this is the estimation given by the Armenian themselves and it is - albeit slightly - exagerated; I myself do not believe the number of Armenians killed in the 1910s is above 900.000, but the Turks have killed a rather large number of other Christians as well, amont them 200.000 Greeks - half of those during Kemal's times btw) IS concidered a Genocide and a huge one at it. Now, let's go beyond the semantics and discuss substance. The Armenians have initiated the violence, so much is true. They were trying to win a country for their own and in such occassions radicals emerge and those radicals perform... well... radical acts. According to several pro-Turkish sources the Armenians killed maybe as many as 12.000 Turks. That's the highest number I've seen. The lowest places the death toll of the Turkish villages in eastern Asia Minor to the 2000s. Those were terrible massacres, indeed. Awful, despicable, horrible. You name it. But they were conducted by some radical groups, not by some government. Let us check the Neo-Turks reaction. Instead of launching a campaing to eliminate those radical groups, or instead of launching a retaliation campaign against Armenian villages (I personally wouldn't justify the second action, but let's play along) they begin what has been recorded down as the meanest, most evil and deadly program of mass-estermination of a people that was conducted from the times of Timur's campaign of terror in the Indian peninsula dna before Hitler started running his gas chambers. The vast majority (like more than 90%) of the Armenians living in the Ottoman lands, were gathered, stripped of their most valuables possensions and launched into exhaustive deathmarches, with no supplies, and subject to countless raids by the barbaric (Turkish and Kurdish) bashibazuks who were roaming the countryside. The matter of how many people died during those deathmarches and during the extensive "cleansing" operations that proceeded and followed them, is irrelevant. Be it 500, 700, 900 thousand or 1.5 million. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the STATE representing the Ottoman Empire, the Neo-Turks have ordered this humangous atrocity, and have left a whole nation to die in horrible ways. So, friend Turks, accept it and learn to live with it. The Turkish denial syndrome regarding the Armenian genocide is becoming an old and tired story. The Germans have accepted the Holocaust, have redeemed and have learned to live with it. Nobody judges today the Germans by the actions of Hitler & gang and nobody will judge today the Turks by the actions of Enver & gang. ------------- If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 07:40
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This is a very difficult debate because everybody believes what they heard from their families. In fact, at that time nobody from the ordinary folk had much knowledge about what happened all around the Empire at that time. For example, the horrible loss of 90000 soldiers at Sarikamish was kept as a secret and it was publicly learned seven years laters in 1922! Also many people didn't leave their own villages so they weren't aware of what was happening. Therefore everybody believes in what their own family experienced. For example my family is from a village of Erzurum and I listened my older relatives who either witnessed or learned from their parents the massacres, tortures and rapes by the Armenian gangs. For such people, the only reality is what they experienced. You cannot tell them that at another point of the Empire the Armenians were massacred, too. Today, after some decades I, as a social scientist, can see from a macro-perspective that Armenians are wiped-out from their motherlands (either by deporting or killing) as a result of inhumane policies and this is very sad. But you cannot expect from a people who knows only their own families' pains to accept being cold-blooded murderers. ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 08:24
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Who said Turks of today should accept "they are cold-blooded murderers"? Do Germans of today count as "cold-blooded murderers" because they accept that Hitler killed 6 million Jews and 3 more million people in the gas chamber? What kind of weird logic is that? Probably it's a problem of the fact that Enver, Talaat & gang are viewed as sorts of national heroes (Kemalists before Kemal, sorts of) so people are rather reluctant on viewing them as the horrible monsters they actually were. But from that point to the point of saying that Turks today should accept they are cold-blooded murderers ...well, it's a bit silly, isn't it? Collective responsibility - or guilty by association, in our crazed world, the kind of thinking that enables the Bushes of this world to launch preemptive or punitive campaings against anybody they perceive as a potential threat - is one thing, historical responsibility is another and common sense is another, rather entirely different methinks. ------------- If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 08:55
Can you please provide sources? Ottoman Archives have ample evidenve of the massacres comitted by armenian gangs and the death toll is much higher than you state, around 500,000. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 09:03
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That was never the case. No-one would dream of accusing e.g. a German for the crimes perpetrated by an awful German Nazi regime in the past. On the contrary, everyone praises them because they're at the forefront of remembering this, accepting responsibility and making sure that it doesn't happen again.
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 09:05
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I don't have the sources at hand, but I'll try to find them. On the meantime, you do understand that your claim is a bit... well... how to say this polite... oh, what the heck, ridiculous? Half a million dead? Can I see something of those archives, please? The archives you mention, not the ravings of some crazed Neo-Turk apologist, the actual archives. Because this is truly hilarious. I mean, somebody would notice, don't you think? ------------- If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 09:47
Nobody gives a f**k about Enver, Talat, etc. I'm trying to tell the psychological dimension of the reactions. In Turkey people perceives that themselves are accused for being such murderers just because they defended themselves from annihilation. The continuous foreign pressure makes common people think "Nobody loves us and just like yesterday everybody wants to destruct us!" This pathetic behaviour is fed by foreign pressure. So there's a misunderstanding between Turks and foreigners. For example Armenian diaspora wants to put accepting the genocide as a condition to accession to EU for Turkey. However wtih such a way they strengthen hypernationalists in Turkey. The nationalists manage to persuade the majority that any progress in democracy, etc will serve to Armenian cause. ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 09:53
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The Ottoman archives are accessible at this link: http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/ - http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/ Most of it is in Tukrish but some of the archives are also translated in English. http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/belge/991/2.PDF - http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/belge/991/2.PDF http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/belge/991/8.PDF - http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/belge/991/8.PDF http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/belge/991/7.PDF - http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/belge/991/7.PDF http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/belge/991/10.PDF - http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/belge/991/10.PDF The figure of 600,000 dead is estimating by adding up all the figures. During the period a total of 3 million muslims have dies all over the empire according to McCarthy. http://www-tech.mit.edu/V119/N23/col23guest2.23c.html - http://www-tech.mit.edu/V119/N23/col23guest2.23c.html ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 10:00
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I am quite sure the Turkish public is not retard and what you describe is retard. What are the people of the country, kids that should be pampered and taken by the hand for around the corner lies the Big Bad Armenian? This is bull... or it is time for the Turks to grow up and accept reality. Either way, I don't think this is the point. I have talked to many Turks and I've read what your fellow countrymen (the vast majority, those that could be deemed as "nationalists") write on this board. Frankly, I haven't seen anything like what you describe. All I've seen is cynicism ("yeah, we slaughtered them, but they started first" or "yah, we've killed many, but it wasn't a genocide, it was just relocation") and similar bull. So, what you perceive as a psychological barrier does NOT exist among the resident Turks of AE. They perfectly know what happened, but they a)consider the Armenians "had it coming" and b)Don't like to call it "a genocide". P.S. you/b] might not give a f**k on Enver and Talaat, but I believe others do...
------------- If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 10:13
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Let me tell you, you think that there's a much developed intellectual environment here and you are wrong my friend. Those you talk are mostly the students who like to surf on the internet who are fed up with official education and form a little minority of the people. Turkish people are very emotional on this issue. Even %90 of them don't know who Talat is. They only think that themselves are accused for what happened and they afraid that foreigners will take huge compensations from us. Don't tell me my own people... ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 10:27
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I don't know, probably you are right in some aspects, but I still believe this is only part of the picture. The fact that the governments instead of "feeding" the reality to the people on this issue, reproduce the denial syndrome and appeal to the fears of the people, shows that there's more than what you say there.
bg_turk, first of all, I don't speak Turkish. I'd love to, but I don't. I suppose you don't speak Greek either. So, what should I do with a pack of documents in Turkish that do not contain any numbers, with a single paragraph in English stating that "there have been atrocities by Armenians and Russians" etc. etc. The 600.000 figure the article you post... I am afraid you misread it: The two Turkish guys say that McArthy has estimated that 600.000 Armenians died during the genocide. The 3 million figure about the Muslim population is an unnamed official estimation of the Turkish side - with no reference about where, what and when. As I said before, the lowest estimation on the Armnenian losses is the 600K+ and is probably the one by McCarthy (the next lower is about 65)K). Where are some valid estimations (with the basis of the estimation available and also things as reasoning and exact timeframe) about the "3 millions"? It's a figure those two guys pulled out of their stomach - easily refutable: at the moment the empire was a rather huge place and the Russians/Armenians only acted in a relatively very small area in space. I am sure the whole Muslim population of the small area we talk was way below the 3 millions...
P.S. Since you are a turk, why the Bulgarian flag? ------------- If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 10:57
You are trying to paint a picture of "denial" where Turkish people are fed propaganda by the government. Not at all! The moment a Turkish government accept the allegations as genocide, it will be thrown out. The turkish public will never accept the term genocide and a one sided picture of the events to be painted.
In fact I posted that in support of the 3 million figure. I only know Turkish sources that claim the 600000 figure, I am not aware of independent research into the number of muslim casualties of war. The 600 000 figure is supported by research carried out by Yusuf Halacoglu over the Ottoman Archives. It is note worty though that he severely underestimates armenian casualties, Ottoman Archives are not very accurate in accounting for the Armenian death. But this does not mean that they are not a reliable source for the turks that have been killed.
I am a Bulgarian citizen of Turkish origin, there are around a million turks in Bulgaria. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 12:10
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Ottoman archives, AFAI can figure out - by the absence of numbers, for
instance - do not say anything about "3 millions" or whatever. They
just talk about atrocities generally. Even the guys you quoted do not
say anything about Ottoman archives - they talk about "estimations"
"demographics" and other nebulous nonsequential non-evidence. Could you underline the specific passages in the archives that talk about specific numbers of Muslim casualties and the point where they say that those muslim casualties have been a)in the area the Russian and Armenian operated and b)have been directly or indirectly a result of those operations. Sorry for being pedantic, but I don't like assertions out of the blue posted as some sort of official truth, and I'd like some actual proof on that. You don't mind, do you? P.S. I am fully awary that any Turkish government that accepts the genocide has signed its political death certificate. I was questioning why the Turkish government, instead of playing the card of "poor relative who has never done any harm but is disliked by everyone", instead of trying to break the truth (subtly and slowly) to the public... ------------- If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 12:16
In don't know about a site-but they are open to public-you can go see them ------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 12:21
I'm sorry, have you managed to prove otherwise-or are you just labelling everything we say bulls***t, and not exactly prove a point Yes, and you know a lot about the psychology of the Turkish residents of AE don't you?(mine is obvious but the other ones?) ------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 12:23
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------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 12:26
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When it has been accepted worldwide and documented-proven true in other words(and there is nothing else to do when you are proven as the bad guy) ------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 12:41
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Most
of the proofs that prove the Armenian Genocide are not Armenian
sources.While all of the Muslim losses are from Turkey itself, so why
the hell can we trust what the government is saying. You say "come to
look at our archives", it has been 90 years since the Genocide, what is
there to look at, all the documents pertaining to the genocide are
gone. Why would Turkey invite people to look through the archives if
they can find documents implicating Turks of genocide, come on
now...poeople are not stupid, they know that this "all archive" policy
is just bull. lol, and omg big turk arent all those devlet...sites part of the Turkey ministry's website? which seem to not work right now...great sources, you will educated the whole world about the Armenian Genocide with those sources, no kidding... |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 12:49
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I strongly recommend you not to make statements that you just possibly can't back it up. Plus I never heard of any documents on your account ------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 13:07
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The ottoman archives contain relevant data about the muslim casualties, the armenian colaboration with the Russians, the russian and armenian massacres perpetrated against the local population. All issues which have been overlooked by many western historians.
The state archives, like in most countries, are stored and controlled by the government, I do not understand why are you surprised by that? My intention was not to disprove anything, but to give a fuller picture of the events. Given your belittling and denialist attitude against the muslim deaths during the period, I really see no point in discussing this further at all. PS: bg_turk stands for Turk from BulGaria, not big turk.
------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 15:36
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Okay, some things I've noticed. When you say "500,000 Turks died in the Eastern provinces", many of those deaths were due to the Russian invasion, not Armenian gangs (assuming the number is even coming from a reliable source...). If Armenian gangs (notice that I'm not using the word "army", because they were not equipped or organized enough to be considered an army, as well as their small size) can kill 500,000 Turks, don't you think Russia could wipe out at least 10 million or so? What about the Allies? Turks stopped them at Gallipoli but they can't crush an uprising of a few thousand men in the Eastern provinces? That's some sensational reasoning. Second...if the only intention was to stop rebellions by Armenians, why did they relocate hundreds of thousands of women and children? Why not exile those who are clearly involved in revolutionary activities, and leave their women and children at home? And okay, I understand some Armenians have the backward mentality of the "Big, Bad Turk", but I've noticed some Turks speak of Armenians as if they were all traitors to the Ottoman Empire. That, and they confuse "Armenian traitors", with Armenians who were actually in the Russian army. Eastern Armenia was part of Russia during WW1, and if Russia attacks Turkey from the Caucasus, guess what? Theres going to be a significant amount of Armenians invading under the Russian flag. I'm not saying this to try and prove there was no Armenian gangs, there were. But some of the exaggerated numbers of Turkish deaths come from people who don't even know that Eastern Armenia was part of Russia, meaning that theres going to be plenty of Armenians invading with them.
Ottoman records were under foreign control prior to WW1?
Not according to non-Turkish/non-Armenian historians like Robert H. Hewson: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Images/Chicago/hewsen233.htm l
They didn't finish the job because of small pockets of Armenian resistance + Ottoman defeat in WW1. Mainly Ottoman defeat.
Why are there still Jews in
So how far would the government have to go for us to call the event "genocide"? Tell me exactly what had to be done for us to look back and say "that was genocide"? ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 17:12
|
I want to quote an essay of Murat Bardak, who recently revealed Talat Pasha's personal notebook in which the exact numbers of the deported Armenians took place. I took this translated version from http://www.armeniangenocide.com - www.armeniangenocide.com I think it's an important data:
EDIT: I put this essay just as a source of data, not as an expression of my own ideas... ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 18:25
|
In your opinion does the Hiroshima bombing (200,000 dead) deserve to be called a Japanese Genocide? This is exactly how I feel about the killings of the Armenians. Very much like the Japanese in their war against the USA, Armenian extremists threatened the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire and the well being of its subjects, colaborated with invading Russian forces and exterminated many innocent muslims to pave the way for independent Armenia. As a result of the actions of these extremists, who were not a small minority at all, many innocent armenians paid a very heavy price later when the balance of power was no longer on their side. All I am saying is that muslims were killed too, each side suffered horrible massacres, so I do not object to the term "Genocide", I object to the term "Armenian Genocide" which gives a one sided portrayal of the events. This is my position. I do not want to hurt anybodies feelings, neither do I expect that we will reach an agreement, so i suggest we stop here. We have nothing to contribute but some anecdotal arguments since most of the evidence of the armenian side is already on the table. But there is solid evidence of the muslim massacres during the same period in the form of exhumed mass graves, testimonies, Ottoman archives. Many of these have never been taken seriously in the West, some of them have never even been translated into English. I sincerely believe part of the truth is not told, and I am determined to bring it to light, 70 million turks simply cannot all be branded to be denialist. Meanwhile I will never accept the one-sided term "Armenian Genocide" to be used for these events. If you truely believe in your cause, then fight for it, I wish you good luck, but I do not believe you are right. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 21:26
"Given your belittling and denialist attitude against the muslim deaths
during the period, I really see no point in discussing this further at
all".  what??would you care to post my message supporting that? "Plus I never heard of any documents on your account" http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/comment/Armenia2/ArmeniaTC.h tm http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4436 http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/4024.html http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/Newsaccounts/Kurds%20an d%20Christians,%20Some%20of%20the%20Oppressions%20and%20Crue lties%20in%20Times%20of%20Peace%20-%20NYT%20-%20Jan%2016,% 20 1895.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/Newsaccounts/Persecutio n%20of%20the%20Armenians%20and%20Kurdish%20Fiendish%20Cruelt y%20-%20NYT%20-%20Mar%2016,%2019,%201895.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/Shades%20of%20 Altruism%20in%20the%20Armenian%20Genocide.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/Newsaccounts/NYT-Tell%2 0of%20Horrors.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/Newsaccounts/Report%20C hristians%20in%20Peril%20in%20Turkey%20and%20Says%20Turks%20 Advise%20Christians%20to%20Flee%20-%20NYT%20Article%20-%20 No v%2012,%201914,%20Jan%2011-13,%201915.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/Newsaccounts/Armenians% 20Killed%20with%20Axes%20by%20Kurds%20-%20NYT%20Current%20Hi story%20-%20Nov%201917.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/Committee%20of %20Mercy.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/Hitler%20and%2 0the%20Armenian%20Genocide.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/Good%20Turks.p df http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/Shades%20of%20 Altruism%20in%20the%20Armenian%20Genocide.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/UN%20Report%20 on%20Genocide%20(excerpts).pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/Genocides%20and%20Other %20Gross%20Human%20Rights%20Violations.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/Patterns%20of%20Genocid e.pdf http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/Armin%20T%20We gner%20Photos.pdf http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2005/09/29/65353 http://www.teachgenocide.org/documents/index.htm#NEWS http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/Newsaccounts/NYT%20Arti cles/NYT%20Article%20-%20Nov%2012,%201916.pdf#search='German %20Accounts%20of%20Armenian%20Genocide' anyway, I will continue later, you should get through these first. Btw if you have a college library, go there and take a look at New York times archives from 1915, there are more than 100 articles on the Armenian Genocide. I would post them here, but no one can access since its you have to go through the school...sry if I didn't link alll of them I got other stuff to do, I find the last link most revealing. Now can I see any non-Turkish sources? (except those of McCarthy and Lewy) oh and please dont ignore the bold statement...makes you look bad |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 22:56
|
There is a difference... It was the tragic consenquence of a war between two countries, United States and Japan. In the Ottoman Empire, Ottoman Armenian citizens were killed by their own government which was supposed to protect them during the War... |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 23:02
|
I am just answering these as you quoted me here...As I said before, every topic is tried to be drawn to the same subjects under different topics.. I didn't say Ottoman records were under foreign control, I said Ottoman census/population records were under foreign control..Well,control is a little heavy, I could have said supervision or inspection. There are zillions of historians giving different numbers on the population, but even the neutral sources' maximum limits are around 1.5 millions...I will give more details about it later, I dont have my books with me right now... If everybody is still hungry for more discussion after all being done for months, that's worrying... And Mamikon, do you have any other reliable sources than teachgenocide.org ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 23:09
Artaxiad, still the same stuff you wrote in the other topic, do you write all those similar things in different topics often? 1-Ottoman Empire did nothing until the Armenians themselves declared a total support for the Entente powers and practically began working for this cause. Protection for the citizens who fought amongside the enemy? Protection from what? Protection from whom? It was the Ottoman Empire who needed protection,actually. 2-Ottoman soldiers didn't make any systematic killings, the deaths happened were result of poor conditions of relocation. And the poor Ottoman Empire, who didn't even have food and cloth for its own army, was not really able to change those poor conditions ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 23:11
|
But no only one of them was started by an Armenian.
About the population thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_Population - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_Population
That's because it's the same topic over and over again. |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 23:19
|
I had put a copy paste here before but I will change that long article and just give links instead.Articles and passages written by non-Turk/non-Armenian neutral sources.All from the same site,but they had done a good job deriving the works of different experts of the subject. http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/fein.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/fein.html by Bruce Fein http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/testimony.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/testimony.html by Justin McCarthy http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/gunter.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/gunter.html by Michael Gunter http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/shaw.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/shaw.html by Stanford Shaw http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/death.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/death.html by J.McCarthy http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/feigl.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/feigl.html by Erich Feigl http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/nalbandian.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/nalbandian.html by Louise Nalbandian http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/death.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/death.html by Salahi Sonyel http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/angora.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/angora.html by Arthur T.Chester http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/tragedy.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/tragedy.html by John Dewey http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/lewis.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/lewis.html Interview with Bernard Lewis http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/yapp.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/yapp.html by Malcolm Yapp http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/graves.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/graves.html Letter from British Consul R.W. Graves to Sir P.Currie http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/boghosnubar.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/boghosnubar.html Letter from Boghos Nubar Pasha to the Times of London http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/bristol.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/bristol.html Letter from Adm. Mark Bristol to Dr. James Barton http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/barton.html - http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/barton.html Back to Bristol from Barton ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 23:22
Well, I don't believe Wikipedia is really trustable. Even I can now go and change the stuff written there.. I don't care it is started by whomever, but it is drawn to the same direction. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 23:53
|
That Fein starts his article with the phrase "Genocide? No!" Why would anyone read something that start with that. It's obvious that it was a genocide. You don't even have to kill people to commit a genocide. In fact the problem is not that it was just a simple genocide at the cultural level for instance. The problem is that it entered the dynamics of democide: KILLING OR DISPLACING ALL ARMENIANS in Turk-controlled territory. The question is not if it was genocide. Genocide is what the Basque people is suffering: aculturization is genocide at it's less violent level. The question is what type of genocide was that? How violent and intense it was. But genocide, sure it was. It was genocide too the expulsion of Greeks, it is genocide the assimilation of Kurds... Genocide is anything that is adressed to destroy an ethnical community. And I'm abiding by the UN definition. The case of Armenians was just one genocide like so many: the Armenian case was a major criminal genocide. It's the only in its kind? Nope, surely not. But it's one of the most striking genocides of the 20th century, probably just after the Holocaust and few others. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 01:16
|
"And Mamikon, do you have any other reliable sources than teachgenocide.org" will more than a hundred New York times articles from 1915 suffice? lol...ATAA.org, Assembly of Turkish American Association, did I not clearly specify no turkish sites...my my my thats a nice collection of "authors" on the Turkish payroll.And what do you know, the thousands of historians who admit the genocide are not paid by the Armenian Government. Is it possible you cant find any non-Turkish sites? try harder you should find Lewy's site, and oh happiness. Oh and I think it was McCarthy who was at first saying that more than 1.5 million Armenians died in Ottoman Empire. Then a quick visit to Turkey and (ahem) a fat check, and he "remembered" some stuff he "omitted" when he came to his first conclusions. Come on now, do you think members on these boards will believe the nonsense that you are posting? (but if it makes you feel good, or you believe you just disproved what your government has been trying to disprove for the past 90 years, post away  ) |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 03:20
|
Assembly of Turkish American Association is a neutral non-turkish source? That's a good one ------------- If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 05:10
|
Sources.....only one of you has posted a source ------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 06:10
Wikipedia? 
-------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 07:50
|
What kind of job have you? Are you a cop? Directing someone with "force" to accept something without listening to the other side of the story? Sorry youre a bad cop. And also what i didnt get of you is "Palestines trowing with stones while the Israelites shot with guns, waaaaa waaa waaaa Before speaking a word about someone else look into a mirror, if you havent a one pm me ill send you one for free. ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
" Ok the situation is maybe wrong but what did youre ancestors with native americans? Didnt they used guns against bows? Hadnt they occupied their lands illegaly? Cant we speak of a "genocide" today about what did happin there? Does spain speaks of a "native american genocide" today? Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 08:24
|
Is the killing and ethnic purging of Turks by Armenians and Russian anot a genocide? Why do you choose to focus on the deaths of Armenians only? Is it because they are christian and you identify more closely with them? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 08:33
|
first
of all, teach Genocide site has is not made by Armenians,
run by Armenians, funded by Armenians. It is a tool to teach about the
Genocides, all Genocides, not just the Armenian. It does containt some
interesting documens from New York times, eh? for those really
interested in the Genocide I recommend Vahakn Dadrian's book, which has
received numerous prasies for the scholarly community, unlike McCarthy
there, who has received praises from the government of Turkey are you still searching for non-Turksish sites? I dont really see any reason to discuss this...you dont want to believe that the massacres constitute a Genocide fine I can do nothing about that, most people here do reognize it, so if you are hoping to disprove the genocide by making this thread, you are severly mistaken my friend...you are not going to change anyone's mind on these boards. Especially with the "evidence" you are supplying... |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 08:46
Look previous page. Read non-Turkish history books... what about Bryce, Morgenthay, Tonybee, Genocide: A Critical Bibliographic Review, Vols. 1 & 2 Jerusalem: Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide, 1991 Genocide in our Time: An Annotated Bibliography with Analytical Introduction Dobkowski, Michael N., and Isidor Wallimann. Ann Arbor, MI: Pierian Press, 1992 The Deportation and Massacres of the Armenian Population of the Ottoman Empire, 1915- 1922: Bibliography of non-Armenian sources. Hovannisian, Richard. University of California, LA, pp. 180-192 The Dark Side of Democracy Explaining Ethnic Cleansing, Michael Mann...will continue later |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 08:55
Armenia was a de facto state at the time, and the "liberation" was about to be formalized by the Treaty of Sevres. Are you by any chance suggesting that occupying a country's territory is not an act of war? Here is how Turkey looked in 1917-1918:
Is declaring a state on the territories of the ottoman empire not an act of war in your opinion? Even armenian sources openly acnowledge the war between the ottomans and the armenians: http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?1=999=304=38==1=3=A - http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?1= 999=304=38==1=3=A Please, note the parts in bold. Do they in your opinion not constitute an act of war against the Ottoman Empire?
The Resurrection of Armenia ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 11:13
|
Is that the common manner of discussion of Armenians when it comes to this matter? I post the stuff, believing it or not is left to the members and you are not the one to judge it. Now, go try finding some more sites like the ones you had found before and write your ideas in a blog instead of a forum, entertain yourself, if you don't want to see anymore of these ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 11:21
|
When it comes to Armenian side, the non-Armenian writers supporting Armenian thesis are considered as "neutral", but when it comes to Turkish side, all the international writers who deny Armenian claims, are etiquetted as "Authors on Turkish payroll"...What kind of a mentality is this? ATAA.org is a Turkish site, but I gave specific links inside that site, articles and book passages by non-Turkish writers. If you believe the sites are so trustable, go look about 1 million sites in google made by the diaspora...The Armenians are making a worldwide fight to make it seem like a "genocide" had happened, Turks don't bother to prove that they are right... On those sites, there are such funny fakes ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 17:11
umm...because there is an actual proof that they get money from the Turkish government. plus, bg-Turk the treaty of Sevres was in 1920. And it has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide, which occurred 5 years earlier, maybe if they hadnt killed the Armenians they would have won the war... on which sites...? |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 18:21
|
If they hadnt killed the Armenians they would have won the war???What is this,gal, read some WW I history instead of just focusing yourself on Armenian claims... Where is this actual proof? Then I claim here that diaspora is paying to thousands of historians, and also make a website and make that remark there either, does this make it true?
------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 18:38
|
"If they hadnt killed the Armenians they would have won the war" greater population, more people with skill. U cant really expect to kill 10% of your population and expect in your toughest times and expect a victory. Just a hypotetical statement. "Then I claim here that diaspora is paying to thousands of historians, and also make a website and make that remark there either, does this make it true?" what if I tell you that its a fact that Turkey mays McCarthy to write his articles? I go back to my point. You cant make me, other Armenians and any non-Turks on this board to believe that the Armenian Genocide never took place. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:12
You're flipping man: I am not any cop (I would never work in such repressive profession and my union doens't allow cops nor soldiers nor private guards) and I am not Nordamerican. If you have read other posts of mine, you will see that I have normally spoken against all types of genocides and definitively I have spoken of Native American genocide, as it was such. So before you start making such ad-hominem attacks, think twice.  -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:23
If it existed, it surely was. I am not Christian nor I identify with them: I belong to an opressed nation and I identify with the opressed natons of the world: Armenians, Palestinians, Kurds, Sahrawis, Corsicans, Kabyliens, Kosovars, Irish, Bretons, Catalans, Chechens, Native Americans, Uygur, Tibetans, etc. I can only support all those claims because they are just one and the same: national freedom. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:31
|
Nobody denies that in the 1918-20 period there was a war between
Armenia and Turkey. But that doesn't justify a genocide. There was a de
facto war between Serbia and Croatia+Bosnia in the 90s but that doesn't
justify the genocide either.
-------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:19
|
After the Russians came back to Eastern Anatolia in 1916, they noticed that there weren't any Armenians left. So by 1918, most of the work was already finished. |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 22:39
Who were those who collaborated with Russians behind the frontline, taking role in every sabotage,every act against Turkish army and murders of the innocent Turkish folk and showed no drawback in openly declaring it? I suppose it was not Martians from the space... ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 23:00
There was no state of turkey until 1923, this is just a map of carved up Ottoman lands. The Ottoman government signed the treaty and thus agreed to the empire being dismantled, so you could actually argue a case that the actions of Kemal were illegal because it violated the treaty. (Although I personally would not) |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 00:54
This comes from the Talat Pasha dicsussion:
Nobody says they are all in the USA. Actually many are EU citizens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Diaspora - Wikipedia says: The Armenian Diaspora is a term used to describe the communities of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians" title="Armenians - Armenians living outside of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia" title="Armenia - Armenia . Of the total Armenian population living worldwide ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004" title="2004 - 2004 est. about 8,000,000) only about 3,000,000 live in Armenia (and about 120,000 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh" title="Nagorno-Karabakh - Nagorno-Karabakh ). There are large Armenian communities in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada" title="Canada - Canada ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal%2C_Quebec" title="Montreal, Quebec - Montreal, Quebec , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto%2C_Ontario" title="Toronto, Ontario - Toronto, Ontario ), the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States" title="United States - United States ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watertown%2C_Massachusetts" title="Watertown, Massachusetts - Watertown, Massachusetts , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresno%2C_California" title="Fresno, California - Fresno, California , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glendale%2C_California" title="Glendale, California - Glendale, California ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia" title="Russia - Russia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostov-on-Don" title="Rostov-on-Don - Rostov-on-Don , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sochi" title="Sochi - Greater Sochi , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow" title="Moscow - Moscow , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Petersburg" title="Saint Petersburg - Saint Petersburg ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe" title="Europe - Europe ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva" title="Geneva - Geneva , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul" title="Istanbul - Istanbul , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille" title="Marseille - Marseille , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa" title="Odessa - Odessa , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val-de-Marne" title="Val-de-Marne - Val-de-Marne , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon" title="Lyon - Lyon , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice" title="Nice - Nice ), the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East" title="Middle East - Middle East ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beirut" title="Beirut - Beirut , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo" title="Aleppo - Aleppo , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran" title="Tehran - Tehran , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolfa_district" title="Jolfa district - Jolfa ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia" title="Australia - Australia , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_America" title="South America - South America ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Paulo" title="So Paulo - So Paulo , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osasco" title="Osasco - Osasco , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_de_Janeiro" title="Rio de Janeiro - Rio de Janeiro , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires" title="Buenos Aires - Buenos Aires , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracas" title="Caracas - Caracas ), and together they comprise the Armenian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora" title="Diaspora - Diaspora . The presentation of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide" title="Armenian Genocide - Armenian Genocide commited by the Ottoman Empire, which is the reason why so many Armenians live outside of their homeland, is a premier trait of most Armenians abroad.
Relocated where? In Hell? It's normally estimated that 1.8 to 2.1 million Armenians lived in Turkey, basically in Eastern Anatolia. Nowadays only a ridiculous 40,000 remain exists in Istanbul. Where are there the rest? It seems a few also made it to Lebanon (100,000) and Syria (150,000) but the rest are nowhere in the former territory of the Ottoman Empire. Half of the 5 million live in Russia, between 400,000 to 1 million in the USA, 250,000 in France, 200,000 in Iran, 250-400,000 in Georgia. These are the greatest communities of Amenians in the world. (from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians). You may want to read a letter from the International Association of Genocide Scholars (http://www.isg-iags.org/) to incumbent Turk PM Erdogan: http://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmenia6-13-05.htm - http://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmeni a6-13-05.htm :
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
?That much? Then %2 of USA is consisted of Armenians...
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 04:29
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If it existed, it surely was. I hope you show great interest to azeris also, they have 1 million refugees. |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:34
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The UN puts it at 600-700 thousand Azeri refugees, and dont forget
about the 200-300 thousands Armenians. And how is it that Azerbaijan,
being a relatively rich country compared to Armenia, still doeds not
house them. While Armenia, after the earthquake in 1988 (which
destroyed about 25 % of its infrastructure and economy), the blockade
for the past 13 years managed to shelter and house all of their
refugees? And wasnt it Azerbaijan that attacked, when in 1991 NKR declared independence? As it had been pointed out in other places Armenians dont hate Azeries and their culture as much as Azeries (who are Turks essentially) hate ours. And I think this topic was discused on other threads, Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict has nothing to do with the genocide. And there is a difference between 1.5 million dead and 700,000 refugees who can come back after a truce is signed. But then can the 200,000-300,000 thousand Armenians come back? |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 08:38
That is what I am arguing. I have no problem with the events being called genocide, but I disagree with a one sided depiction like "Armenian genocide". According to Turkish estimates around 500-600 thousand Kurds, Cherkez, and Turks died at the same time on the Eastern Front only. They were ethically cleansed and massacred by Armenians and Russians in order to "liberate" armenian. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 09:20
Well, that's important too. It must be put in the whole picture of the Armenian genocide. Yet I'm under the impression that it's instead used as a deflective shield: "we also had victims". Of those 500,000 thousand claimed how many are Kurds? Where did Cherkess live? Or are you talking of another massacre in Russian territory? As fas as I know Cherkess live north of the Caucasus. How many Turk victims (non-Kurd, non-Cherkess)? I bet that not any significative number and are just thrown in there to say "us". -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 09:27
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Maju you have a problem there. It was mainly kurds and cherkess who killed armenians, we accept their guilt, why not their deaths are non-turkish, but their guilt is turkish |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 10:43
If Armenians comitted genocide against the local population as well, why do you still insist on calling it an "Armenian" genocide? What deflctive shield are you taling about? Are you by any chance suggesting that Turks do not have the right to defend themselves against unfair allegations, and should take all armenian claim, of "law abiding armenians brutally massacred by the barbarian turks" at face value?
From an Armenian source: http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?1=999=235=999==1=3=A - http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?1= 999=235=999==1=3=A
Clearly, the Kurds and Cherkeses were not happy (to put it mildly having been massacred by the armenian and russian gangs) with the Armenian rule of the "liberated" territories, and the Armenians were worried about retaliation. The Cherkes were spread all over Anatolia, as far as the Aegean, as you can see from this ethnic map of Europe from the era:
It is not possible to provide an ethnic break town of the muslim casualties as during the period ottomans did not differentiate between different ethnicities, and the muslims were all put under the same denominator. On the other hand christians like armenians, greeks, etc were all considerd as part of the Rum Millet. Religion was the main feature. Looking at the map above you can see that the great majority of the population in the region was of kurdish origin so it is reasonable to assume that the great majority of those that have been killed are kurds. Ottoman archives do not state the ethnicity of the muslims killed. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 10:44
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I was merely replying to allegations that the Armenian massacres were different from the Hiroshima bombing because the Japanese were at war with the USA, whereas Armenians were not. So in your opinion is the Hiroshima bombing of Japan an instance of Genocide? I personally do not see any difference between the Hiroshima bombing and the armenian massacres. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 21:08
Well, the deportation and murder of Armenians started in 1915 (with most of the deaths happening between 1915-1917), while the First Republic of Armenia was founded in 1918. So they were at war with a state 2 years before it came into existence? Remember, the Republic of Armenia (1918-1920), was the section of Armenia which was formerly part of the Russian Empire. This is the state Turkey was later at war with... Ottoman Armenians were not a state, and therefore cannot be at war with the Ottoman state. The borders of the maps you showed were the borders according to the Treaty of Sevres, which was: 1. Signed by the Ottoman Empire itself. 2. Written and signed in 1920, while Ottoman massacres and deportations of Armenians began in 1915. You showed the maps as if the Armenians broke away from the empire before they were being deported, which is obviously not the case. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 21:20
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One of the differences is that Japan was a state, and Armenia was not during 1915. The other major difference is that USA recognizes the bombing (it would be dumb to deny it, with all the existing proof), while Turkey denies the Armenian genocide. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 22:08
I want to clear it up. Anyhow, it was the Special Unit organized by Enver Pasha which was in charge of the genocide. Whatever it's composition it was a unit of the Turkish army, commanded by Turkish officers. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 22:25
It's more a Democide, as there was no clear intent of removing a culture/ethnicity (the Japanse) from the map.
I think they are both criminal and regrettable. Just that as I say the term Genocide can hardly fit for Hiroshima, but it is a Democide without Genocidal intent (I think). -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 00:05
You meant to refer to the [belge]ler documents, which their sources were even questioned soon after the war. Had the Russians and Armenians had such an effective on the middle of the war to penetrate and kill that much people, with the sort of typical villages in Anatolia, reaching Istanbul would have been a matter of months for the Russians alone. But yet, Armenians didn't only lost Eastern Anatolia, but even pieces of Russian Armenia. |
Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 00:08
I still can find Japanese in Heroshima and Nagazaki, how many Armenians could you find in Eastern Anatolia? If you want to compare, compare what Jevdet the governor of Van planned to do in Van, with what the Japanese did in Nanking, then we could speak.
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Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 00:22
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There is no such thing as 500,000 killed. It is a statistical impossibility. The only way for the Russians or the Armenians to have been able to kill that much would have been to remove the population from villages to villages from the Heartland of Anatolia and deport them. The only reason why the destruction of the Armenians was so effective was because they were evacuated. Here is how they add up those 500 thousand figures. "This attempt of the Armenians to defend themselves against the Turkish attack in Van was promptly misrepresented in a communique' which was sent by Enver Pasha and the Turkish Government to Berlin, and thence spread all over the world, as an attack by bands of Armenian insurrectionists who, in the rear of the Turkish army had fallen prey upon the Mohammedan population. Out of 180,000 Moslems in the Vilayet of Van only 30,000 had succeeded in escaping! In a later report issued by the Turkish embassy in Berlin on October 1, 1915, the story was further embellished: "No fewer than 180,000 Moslems had been killed. It was not surprising that the Moslems had taken vengeance for this". Some 18 Turks, answering to the number of Armenians they had killed in Van, had turned into 180,000! This astonishing impudent lie has a kind of foundation. According to statistics there should be 180,000 Moslems, including 30,000 Turks and 150,000 Kurds, in the Vilayet of Van. The Turks fled westwards when the Russian army advanced, while the 150,000 Kurds remained where they were, and were molested neither by the Russians nor the Armenians" Armenia and the Near East, Dr. Fridtjof Nansen, 1928, p.302 Let see now the list, in which it is calculated over 500,000 Turks or Muslims were killed by Armenians. Let take Van, since those two references above refer to it. Those are the documents for Van. Belge no. 3, Tarih. 1916-5-22, number of Victims(Van): 8 Belge no. 3, Tarih. 1916-5-22, number of Victims(Van): 8,000 Belge no. 3, Tarih. 1916-5-22, number of Victims(Van): 80.000 The three are coming from the same said document. One document, The same identification, the same date, the same location. One can wonder, how Armenians for the same date, the same location, in the same document could have killed, 8, 8,000 AND 80,000. In fact, there has been another version, where there has been a 1 added before the 80,000 to be presented to the Germans as the one that Nansen is referring to. James Morgan Read, in his work Atrocity Propaganda 1914-1919, write about the same thing: "The Turkish ally also furnished German papers with stories of Armenian cruelty to offset the unfavorable publicity directed at the Central Powers for their alliance with the "terrible Turk", the perpetrator of the "Armenian massacres." The Armenians were accused of helping the Russians burn the Moslem quarters in the province of Van, rape the women and girls, kill all the men. According to a later estimate the Russians had burned alive 500 people in one village of Van, and only 30,000 of the 180,000 Moslems in the province had escaped. Germans who read that the Armenians were especially fond of burning Turks to death were not likely to have much sympathy with the Christian minority of Turkey. An intensive anti-Armenian campaign was staged by the official Turkish news agency as late as February and March, 1918. In this group of stories the most refined types of mutilation were included, such as Armenians waylaying Turks, tearing out their lungs and hanging them on the wall." And what is called Belge" references itself show this falsification. They took the number 8, the number 8000 and the number 80,000 for Van, from the same document and for the same date, and have added all three... One can not delete zeros but can add them in a document, you can not delete an 8 neither. What they did was to simply add .(siffer, which is zero) before(before because they write from right to left) the 8 figure, and recorded those three different figures. They have thought that this was not enough, they even had the set get another 1 to make it 180,000 and they presented it to the Germans. In Van, in April, the Armenians did not attack the city, 8 Muslim lost their lives during the insurrection, in which hundreds of Armenian men were killed by the order of Djevet that ordered that any men should be killed(read Nogales account). When Nogales was on the spot, he saw that there was no Armenian revolt. There has in fact been an attack against the Muslim, but when it happened, countless numbers of Armenians were already evacuated from the region when the Russian army arrived. But when the Russian army realli invaded all the place, as W.E.D. Allen and Paul Muratoff write in their work: "Caucasian Battlefields : A History of the Wars on the Turco-Caucasian Border, 1828-1921" : "Natural difficulties were made worse by the fact that the Young Turk policy of deporting the Armenian population of the surrounding areas had been carried out too effectively. At the beginning of the war Turkish supplies had been drawn from the fertile and well-cultivated up-land basins of Eleskirt, Erzurum, Mus, and Mamahatun. All these had fallen into the hands of the Russians, while the Armenian cultivators had been driven off from the valley of Murat-cay and the great plain round Harput. At the same time Turkish peasants had, at the approach of the Russians, trekked into the interior of Anatolia. The extent of about seventy-five per cent of their inhabitants (and they have never since recovered their former degree of prosperity). " This work is often referred by Turkish revisionists, but on the other hand, this book show us what really happened there, which had nothing to do with the Armenians. When the Russians arrived, a large part of the Armenian population in Van just escaped, and before that there has been no massacres by Armenians. They took the "8" figure and tranformed it in tens of thousands. McCarthy himself use the Belge[ler](known as well as "Belgeler volumes" which were just a piece of fabrication), documents in his works to demonstrate Armenians butchering Muslims, as well as using Kara Schemsi works, which were the same crap, that were aimed to justify the Armenian destruction after the war. Just to note, that Ahmed Emin (Kemailist, and previously Ittihadist) in his propaganda book published in the beggining of the 30s, hasn't even provided half of those 500,000(more like the quarter, and hasn't specified that Armenians directly killed them, while in the same time blaming everything on the Armenians). Halacoglu himself used those same lists to caculate his 500,000 figures, it says alot of his credibility. Also, the fact that the same 'prfessor, calculate the total number of Armenians having died during the 'relocation' to be of 56 thousand and that from it less than 10 thousand being killed, and that from this number apparently none were killed by Turks, but by Kurds bedoins etc.
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Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 00:30
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Hold on please don't start false rumors, McCarthys first visit in Turkey was while he was still a student, it was in 1968 or something with the Peace Corps. McCarthy always had low figures of Armenian victims, but it is all much telling that the revisionist side has only such controversial individuals to back up their claims.
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Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 00:52
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According to the revisionists of the Holocaust, the Jews joined the Bolshevic movement, were responsable of the Ukrainian famine which killed millions, and that during WWII and before it, they comploted to destroy Germany by introducing Bolshevism and starve the Germans from their assets. The Jews in the ghettos were accused of open rebelion, the Jews were accused of serving massivly for the allies, to spy and present target lists for the allied planes. Not justified you say? There is no such thing as a non-justified genocide. People don't decide to destroy a population out of the blue moon, and even in the cases of the Holocaust this is true and I think since Raul Hilberg monumental volume there is no question about this. As for the second paragraph,... ask your friend to ask his grandfather what happened with the Armenian properties in Adana which were distributed to the Turks when Armenians were evacuated under the pretext of massacres. Tell him why the Armenian males baricaded there. Tell him also what went wrong in 1909 when 25 thousand Adana Armenians were locked in their church and schools and burned to death. Don't expect me to believe the grandfather of your friend who could happen to be one of the many people who lives in the properties of the Armenians who were executed, and more particularly in cities like Adana where Armenians had villas and runing the economy. Also, isen't it amasing that it is always stories from ones friend grandfather and that once in a while you will get a Turk who would speak about his own being allegedly victim. Why don't you ask the Armenian diaspora their stories. They will not tell the story of one friend or someone whom they heard about, but rather what their grandparent faced and how they were orphaned ended in orphanages in Syria, Lebanon, Armenia etc. Do you expect Armenians to pitty your friends grandfather when the large majority of your fellow Turks not only deny the crime but also reverse the role of the victims and agressors? Perhaps if the said victims from Armenians return the properties they have looted from their rightful owners and your government apologies for all those years of denial and rape of the victims and that those same victims get their proper burial you can ask Armenians for some pitty for those Turks who died. In the meantime, if you really show sarrow for the Armenian victims, you could maybe turn your feelings as acts and organise a manifestation to remove Talaats solemn mausoleum in the Hill of Liberty and change all those streets, schools etc. whom were named after the butchers of the Anatolian Armenians and considered as national heros.
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Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:00
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Actually, the official figures of Armenian refugees from international organizations is something like 300-350 thousand. Per population there are as much Armenian refugees in the conflict than there is Azeris. Also, I laugh each time I see a Turks bringing this up, when they support the slicing of Cyprus, unlike Cyprus, in Karabakh, there was no need to separate a population to get a majority.
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Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:07
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Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:14
Actually, the 1.5 million originate from German reports during the war, the 1.2 million figure was presented during the Turkish military court from one of the presecutors lawyer, in the same way as the 5.7 million was presented during the Nuremberg for the Jews. The 800,000 killed for the period of 1915 to beggining of 1918, excluding those perishing was presented by a Turkish commission and made public by the Ittihadist minister, Djevet himself. Only adding to this the near 200,000 victims from the Alxandriopole commission which could be found in Soviet archives, the figure of victims jumps over a million. |
Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:16
Care to list them again?
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Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:21
From when is McCarthy a credible source? Also, Pierre Caraman wrote in 1989, in L'ouverture des archives d'Istanbul in "Nouvel Observateur, January-Febuary. P. 145 The year 1931 proved to be a landmark in the history of Ottoman Archives. Defying the most elementary rules, the government of Mustafa Kemal decided to sell the contents of a considerable part of the Archives to Bulgaria - at the price of its value as paper. The idea was to erase from human memory four centuries of Ottoman history. More discerning than the Turks, the Vatican bought these documents from Bulgaria at a price which for that time was rather high. As soon as the news of the sale broke out in Istanbul, the intellectuals cried 'scandal'; a sudden interest began to spring up and develop the remaining Archive depositaries. As a result, between 1932 and 1937, 184,256 items, whether registers or documents, were classified under 17 categories, with the collaboration of the Turcolog Lajos Fekete. In 1937, the Hazinei Evrak disappeared and was supplanted by the new Basvekalet Arsivi (The Archives of the Directorate of the Prime Ministry) The Turkish authorities will allow the most green foreign historians to consult data which will consist of selected, deleted and sanitized documents lest the present government is compromised relative to the problems of the Armenian genocide. Linguist-archivists, who have been working in theses archives for more than a decade, have taken care of this new project as far as the need for purging is concerned It is most likely that nothing new will emerge from this new arrangement of accessibility. One has to be truly nave or inept to believe in the obverse. The history of the tragic period has already been written and the archives of all other countries already contain and preserve the unalterable evidence of the first genocide of the twentieth century As former Ambassador Zeki Kuneralp declared: The liabilities of not publishing the historical documents outweigh the advantages. It is for this deplorable (Turkish) obsession (for concealment) that we rely upon foreign documents to learn about our history. |
Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:27
Imagine that the archive was to show that a genocide happened, do you believe that a government who hire psychotics like Halacoglu would make them available? |
Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:37
Like it or not, 70 million Turks ARE denialist, much the same way that the typical nationalist Japanese could not accept Nanking or the Red Cambodian what the Khmer Rouge did. As for the truth, you bringing it up, go ahead big boy do so. Lastly, who are you to say what happened was not a genocide? The one who coined the term genocide Raphael Lemkin included the Armenian cases as a part of the definition. Suppose I invent my own devicde and call it a Cluclu, who the hell will you be to claim that my decide which I invented and termed it is not the term I invented to call it? The Armenian cases is not only a cases of genocide, but it was incorpored as part of his definition. Turkaya Ataov and his bodies had to go cry to the UN until 1985 to screw the new genocide convention and the decaded of work started in 1968 just because it contained the term Armenian in it, even thought few months before the 1948 genocide convention the UN had published a report regarding the Armenian massacres. Go figure it out. |
Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:45
3 million is only in the collective imagination, firstly individuals such as Gurun and show brought the 2 million as figure, ir apparently jumped to 2.5 million by McCarthy... and then 3 million. While the official Turkish figures of Armenian casulaties decreases (800,000 killed first, and then Bayur the Turkish historian and later Nihads military book replaced it as 'perished' and then, and a little before, after Djemal was attacked and threatned because he made official the figure of 800,000 killed, he tried to save his face from the Turkish inquisition and brought the figure of 600,000 thousand in his memoir even if his figure of 1.5 million deported gived it away..., and later the figure was reduced to 300,000, then to 200,000 the same figure recycled by Shaw and his Turkish wife Ezel Kural... and then, Halacoglu the psychotic reduced it to 56 thousand) the figure of Muslim casulties haven't stoped increasing. The methode is to reduce the Armenian casulties to the minimum, reduce their pre war population(which irronically would put the claim of the Armenian threat to rest, but revisionists have never managed to make some sense) and increase the Turkish losses, even transfering the whole Muslim population as Turks. |
Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:49
Fein is a rightwingy authorny and ATAA scholar who was present and gave a speech during a Turkish manifestation accusing Armenians to have exterminated 3 million Turks.
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Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:50
How much of this stuff you have read, and how many of those who wrote it do you know?
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Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 01:54
Fein, the authorny and ATAA scholar, McCarthy who recives ARIT and ITS grants, Chestler and Bristol supporters of the Chestler consession(read about it, and I garanty that you will never use him again as source). Those are I guess the international scholars in question. I guess we should reject natural selection just because a handful of pseudo-scientists advance supposed creationist evidences which reject it. Yeh right.
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 02:25
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There is a big difference between baseless accusations and real facts. There are testimonies of live Turks telling of massacres commited by live Armenians against civilian law abiding Turkish population: http://www.kultur.gov.tr/EN/BelgeGoster.aspx?17A16AE30572D313AAF6AA849816B2EF4096927939D94B19 - http://www.kultur.gov.tr/EN/BelgeGoster.aspx?17A16AE30572D31 3AAF6AA849816B2EF4096927939D94B19 There are thousands of those, and we will make damn sure that every single testimony is translated into english to expose your lies about "armenians being law abiding innocent civilians bruttaly killed by the TUrks". Armenians, unlike Jews, actively fought to destroy the Ottoman Empire and create their own state. To achieve this purpose they did not hesitate to kill up to a 500 thousand muslims in order to make the Armenian state viable, on land which was not exclusively armenian and on which armenians were not even a majority. According to the revisionists you say? What am I trying to revise? Have I ever claimed massacres against armenians never occured? No! I never did! I am simply trying to bring up the killings of muslims that you are hiding, the genocide against muslims that armenians did with their big brother russia in order to pave the way for great armenia.
Was the genocide against the muslim people justified because "armenians were simply protecting themselves"?
How about the muslims who have been slaughtered and dumped into wells in front of the mosques in Van? How about the burned mosques with live women and children in them? The traces of these fires are idenitifiable on these mosques even today. The bones of these people have been found, for gods, sake! Did armenians do these to protect themselves from Genocide?
Your arrogance knows no limits. You are in complete denial of the turkish victims. But your denial is in vain, we will make absolutely sure that every single one of them counts!
It is not only one, I know at least 5 families that have lost relatives in the period, including an Armenian family.
I never asked for pity from you. I dont need anybody to be pittied by an arrogant denialist like you. Talking about lootings? Please, tell us about what you did to the muslims, that were stupid enough to stay and their proprties in Van, Erzurum, Kars, Trabzon when they fell?
I certainly will. Will you do the same for the butcher Andranik Ozanian, whom you seem to adore as a national hero? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 02:54
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The question is that while you call arrogant to others, people kow
about the Armenian genocide and don't believe a word on oficial Turkish
figures becaues they are built on a denialist attitude. Even if there
were Kurds killed by Armenians, guess that would be a bilateral
Armeno-Kurd issue and Kurds have a much more constructive attitude than
Turks on that, having acknowledged the genocide and presented their
apologies.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 03:21
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Seems like someone tried to abuse those numbers but I want to give an additional information: Although the Ottoman script was written from right to left, the numbers were witten from left to right just like the Latin script (if you are a historian dealing with documents you may need it). ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 03:52
I have addressed the rest of your post in the other thread. As for this part, Andranik is not glorified by statues or streets named in his honor. He is not a major national hero in Armenia by any standards. He is mainly a hero to Dashnak members, and primarily in the diaspora. But I wouln't even call him a "hero" amongst most Armenians, since most Armenians are not Dashnaks, and only some Dashnaks regard him as a "hero". Most Dashnaks just sympathize with his cause rather than calling him a "national hero". Our national heroes invented alphabets, converted Armenia into the first Christian state, and were mostly intellectuals and artists. Armenia's only main military "national hero" is Vartan Mamikonian, and he lived in 451 A.D. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 04:14
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Armenians not molesting the muslims, this is the ultimate lie, a complete fabrication. Here are eyewitness accounts of the brutal armenian invasion of Van, and the surrounding territories, and the systematic annihilation of muslims: ------------------------------- Muhammet Resit Guleser Father's Name : Abdullah
I was a young student at the (Teachers' training college) school, around 15 or 16 years old during the Armenian massacres, and remember what happened quite well. Before the First World War, we had good neighbourly relations with the Armenians (whose population was said to be approximately 17,000). With the declaration of the constitutional monarchy in 1908, they started to exploit the principles of independence, equality, and justice to their benefit. Their leader in Van, Aram Pasha, was in the delegation that notified Sultan Hamit that he would have to leave his throne. The Armenians set up an underground organization in Van, and dug tunnels which extended from near the Great Mosque (Byk Camii) all the way to the old section of town. It was even possible to go through these tunnels on horseback. One day some parts of the tunnel collapsed so was discovered by a guard incidentally. Aram Pasha was caught near the Great Mosque upon the intelligence of an Armenian but was released without punishment due to the political sensitivities of the time. In short, the Armenians organized themselves very well and became rich financially in commerce. After the Armenians and Jews were permitted to join the military, some groups of Armenians, joined the military with their weapons during the retreat of the Van division. Our soldiers were carrying German-made primitive weapons which could only fire four shots and the fifth one would drop to the gound. According to what we had heard from Mr. Haci Latif and the others who later returned to Van, the Armenians in the Van division were shooting our soldiers in the back. There were also several cases of Armenian doctors and nurses poisoning our wounded soldiers who were treated in the hospitals in Van after returning from the eastern front. As to the situation in Van, the Russians were approaching from three fronts, Muradiye, zalp, and Baskale. The Armenians in the city were rebelling and continued an aggressive campaign against the Muslim population for 29 days. We had three barracks, Haci Bekir, Aziziye, and Toprakkale. Ten soldiers would guard each one. They attacked to these barracks and slaughtered the soldiers like sheep by cutting their throats off. Ali Cavus, our neighbour, was also slained there. While our weak militia were digging trenches to trying to fight, the Armenians made holes in the walls and were firing shots with machine guns, pouring cans of kerosene, lighting fires, and escaping through the deep tunnels. This brutal attack lasted 29 days. The decision of retreat was finally made so that the Muslim population would not suffer any more deaths. Those with carts used them; those without them were under desperate conditions, but we all joined the exodus. People left their children on the roads, others died from hunger and disease. It should be remembered that the Armenians not only committed large massacres in Van, but in the villages as well. The homes in the villages of Timar, Bakale, and zalp were stuffed with hay and set on fire. Those that tried to escape were killed with bullets and bayonets. The inhabitants of a few villages in Zeve got organized and fought against the Armenians, but almost all of them -from seven different villages- were killed. Mass graves are still being uncovered in these villages and a memorial was built. Eight of the twelve ships carried the Muslim refugees from Van, four ships carried government employees and their families. All the sailors aboard the vessels were Armenians. The Armenian bandits by the help of these sailors, forced the four government employee boats to dock at the Adir Island, and killed all the passengers. As to the remaining other eight boats they were taken to another island near Tatvan where Armenian bandits were waiting, but they managed to escape with few casualties because they were armed. When we left Van, we first went to Bitlis, and later to Diyarbakir. We witnessed the Armenian savagery along the way. Finally, I will tell you about what we saw and heard upon returning to Van. The Armenians applied all types of torture to the inhabitants, God bless their souls. They paraded Isa Hodja, who was over 100 years old, on a donkey through the village, raided and looted homes, and gathered women and girls into Mr. Ziya's home where they repeatedly raped them. They threw the bodies of the dead into wells, and even filled the well of our mosque with the bodies of victims. When General Cevdet entered Van for the first time, he asked the gendarmes to escort 130 women, whose husbands were at the front, to Diyarbakir. They were in bad situation in Van because they did not have any transportation. About 30 of them stayed in our house. They spun wool to survive. They were also given military rations. They told us that there was no end to the torture and cruelties they suffered at the hands of the Armenian bandits. The Armenians skinned the men, castrated them, and raped the women. We returned to Van four years later. In the beginning we stayed two years, but were forced to flee again when the Russians arrived. This time we went as far as we could go. Finally we arrived to Siirt. When we returned, 200-250 Armenian families were seeking refuge on the Carpanak Island. They were hoping that the Turks would leave, and that they would resettle in Van. Most of them were artisans. A short time later, a new decree was issued, and they were sent to Revan under the protection of the government. However, Van was raided seven times by the enemy, was completely destroyed except for the Armenian quarters. We rebuilt the city afterwards. Seyh Cemal Talay Father's Name: Cimsid
The militants were raiding the Muslim villages and neighbourhoods. The only thing we had to fight them with was a militia led by Imam Osman, composed of those either too old or too young to join the army. Let me tell you a story which I will never forget. I went to a school located near the government mansion. Armenian children also studied at the same school. Some of the students in the Armenian underground went to get a Muslim student named Rustu from his home with an excuse of studying. They took him to the Isitma bridge near the industrial park. After insulting him, they raped and killed him, leaving his body for his family to find the next day. The family later composed a ballad to honour his memory. I can remember the beginning of the skirmishes between the Muslims and Armenians. Our militia, which would meet in the Mahmut Aga barracks across the street from the Van State Hospital, was on duty, a day before the war with the Armenians started. The Armenians prepared the night before and positioned themselves. They dug holes in the State Mansion, and when our militia was preparing for morning prayer at a fountain nearby, the Armenians showered them with bullets. Many of our soldiers were killed. The fighting between local Muslims and Armenians began. There was a big confusion in the streets from both sides. Despite this, we got up and went to school. We had two teachers, one from Salonica, one from Edirne. They said "Come on kids, let's all forgive each other, we might not see each other again" and suggested we use the side streets to avoid Armenian bullets. I left school with some friends, but decided to take our regular route. We saw that weapons and ammunition were being distributed in front of a storage area for protection against the Armenians. We then noticed a few Armenians creeping up from behind, and notified the man distributing the weapons. He threw them down in his hand and fired on them, and they ran away. The war started on April 2 and 3 in 1915. In 1914, the Russians were not able to penetrate the front line, but they surrounded our soldiers from behind by passing Caldiran-Bahcesaray, and established headquarters in the Molla Hasan village. We couldn't go anywhere. But in the spring the Armenians went completely crazy. On May 10, 1915, the Russians were moving towards Van. With Governor Cevdet's orders we evacuated Van, taking with us what we could carry. During the war, Armenian brutality reached a stage that no one, including the old, sick, captive, women or children could escape. The atrocities reached the degree that even the Armenians' main supporters, the Russians, were trying to prohibit their actions. My grandmother Mihri couldn't flee with us because one of my uncles was paralysed from the waist down. Unable to speak because of the shock of what happened in our absence, she later learned to speak by sign in order to explain what happened. They shaved my uncle's moustache along with his flesh, and then took them to a house which they used as a detention centre and tortured him and the other captives until the Russians arrived. When we became refugees there were 23 members of our family. We lost most of our family on the road to Bitlis and Urfa. Only two of us returned to Van. Our first stop on the road was Bitlis where we arrived in eleven days, and then went to Siirt, where we had relatives with whom we stayed for a few months. When we heard about the Russian advance, we again fled to Diyarbakir. Our convoy consisted of 250 people. We suffered from hunger and thirst on the way. We went through Kurtalan and Diyarbakir and the village of Kebir, where we did not stay long, and again took the road to return to Van. When we reached Kurtalan, we learned that the Russians had entered Van again and went to Siirt. In the spring of 1916, we went to Baghdad, but fled to Mardin when the English Army advanced. In 1917, we arrived to Urfa. The French who entered Urfa started tormenting the Muslims by bringing the Armenian of Aleppo to the city. This time we fought for twenty-two days. We left Van in 1915. When we were finally able to return, only two people remained from the 23-membered family. Van was totally destroyed. The Armenians burned and demolished everything except for the Armenian houses. In fact, when the Turkish army entered Van, around 2.000 Armenian artisans, expecting retaliation for their repression of the Turkish population, sought refuge on the island of Adir. The Turkish government instead ensured their safe passage to Revan. Salih Tasci Father's Name: Mirza
They tortured people especially in central Van and in the castle. Their leader was a man called Aram Pasha. We were defeated by them as they had rich ammunitions. Then we decided to migrate to safer places as we did not want to suffer more casualties. Some people went to Bitlis by way of land and some went by sea. The ones who stayed were all killed. The refugees of Van were spread everywhere in country. From Bitlis to Diyarbakir, Elazig, Nazilli, Burdur... However, the Armenians undertook massacres in the villages of Van. In those villages the Armenians and the Russians closed the roads. They killed all the men and raped all the women there. Later, Armenian bandits gathered in Van and carried massacres out there too. In short, it was like the doomsday. In Lake Van there were sailing boats. They really tortured so much that they got bored from killing people. They put the people into the boats and threw them in to the lake. Those Armenians nailed our elders to the walls from their hands and foreheads. We resisted them as much as we could do and fought. We did everything necessary. But, we never touched any Armenian child or women; we just fought against men. Armenians were so cruel. After I returned from the Iranian Front in 1921, I found Van in a ruin. All the Turkish districts were burnt by the Armenians and the Russians; all the Muslim properties were plundered. But, the Armenian houses were still standing out. Van was empty. Later, the Muslims returned one by one. Everybody began to rebuild his house; we have rebuilt the city. Ibrahim Sargin Father's Name : Halil
Q: How old were you when the Armenians rebelled? A: I had just turned 11 at the time. Q: Were your parents alive at the time? A: Yes, they were. Q: Were they subjected to Armenian atrocities? A: I will tell you all about that later. I first want to try to explain the situation of the Armenians. We know how untrustworthy the Armenians and Russians were, and about their efforts to stab the Ottoman State from behind by forming bands of rebels. At that time, Russians were paying Armenians wages. However, the Armenians were paying the Ottoman State only one gold coin in taxes while those unable to pay that much, were paying five silver coins. There were certain changes during the rule of Sultan Hamid and Sultan Resad. They extended equal rights to the Armenians, declaring that they would be equal to Muslims, like brothers. They passed a law abolishing the tax imposed on them, and made them equal to us. There was jubilation in the streets. Armenian priests and our religious leaders hugged each other and kissed. At this time, it was also decided that Armenians would serve in the army with us and study in our schools. The Armenians were thrilled with these changes. As soon as they had the opportunity, they established committees and asked for money from France and England and arms from Russia. They figured they could co-operate with the Russians, receive military supplies from them, and attack the Ottomans while the Russians could advance from the outside. What did the Russians do? They constructed storage bins out of the stove pipes and stove metal. These bins were three feet long and one and a half feet wide, and filled with arms and munitions. Some of our supplies including kerosene came from Russia at the time. The Russians delivered these military supplies to the Armenians by hiding them in the bins and covering them with kerosene containers. Having armed the Armenians in this way, the Russians sent a member of the secret revolutionary society from Russia. His name was Aram, and he was blind in one eye. A Russian Armenian, they named him Aram Pasha. Then they brought someone named Antranik to Mus, and called him Antranik Pasha. Plus, there was an Armenian revolutionary committee leader nicknamed Sahin (Falcon) in the Karagunduz village of the Ercek region. They would set up committee organisations and head for the Turkish borders. They crossed into the Turkish villages where they would attack and kill Turks, and then retreat. They carried weapons and bandits to Karagunduz on horseback. Q: Do you remember the revolutionary committees in the region and the names of their leaders? I named some of them a little earlier. I don't remember any other names. They armed themselves with the help of the Russians, and came on horses. They created storage areas in the Sisanus village, and moved to a lake village which was completely inhabited by Armenians who had moved into the village earlier. On the lake there were enormous ships which could carry 500-600 people. These ships would carry arms and ammunition to Adilcevaz, Ahlat, Ercis, and Gevas. Some would later be sent to Tatvan, Mus and Bitlis. The Armenians armed themselves well with these supplies, and started to form guerrilla groups. More specifically, they organised fighters and hid them on the Islands of Akdamar, Carpanak, and Kadin Tbese fighters later scattered throughout the area, insulting and provoking the public. After a while, they decided to get along with the Russians. After the Russians declared war to the Ottoman Empire, all of our soldiers left the area. Some went to the Caucasian front line, while others went to the Iranian front line. The Armenian soldiers accompanied our soldiers. After the two sides started fighting, our soldiers noticed that they were being shot from behind. The doctors could not understand why soldiers who should be hit from the front were hit from behind. Then they realised that Armenian soldiers would kill ours whenever the opportunity arose. We lost perhaps thousands of our soldiers in this way, but it was too late when it was discovered. Some of the traitors were found, while some joined the Russian fighters. This war lasted two and a half years. Our soldiers were in terrible shape, and were forced to retreat. The Russian military started to advance. When they arrived at the Caldiran plains, they came across the Hamidiye regiment which was formed during the reign of Sultan Hamit and was composed of tribes. The Russians used the Hamidiye organisation for their own means, telling them to provide soldiers to defend the area, while they would provide munitions and arms. A soldier who heard that the Russians arrived in Caldiran ran to his village (Derebey) and told the village headman that it was futile to work in the fields since the Russians had already arrived in Caldiran, which meant they would be in the village either that day or the next. He told the villagers they would all be killed if they didn't flee. Hearing this, the villagers gathered together, took some food and whatever they could carry, and left toward Van. They first reached the Zorava village, which is Circassian. When the inhabitants asked them what was going on, they told them that they were headed to Van because the Russians had entered Caldrran and were advancing toward Muradiye. Hearing this, the villagers in Zorava joined the refugees. Later there were eight villages which joined this caravan to Van; Hakis, Zorava, Derebey, Sih Omer, Sihkara, Sihayne, Hidir and Gll. They had no idea that Van was emptied and that its inhabitants had migrated. When they arrived at the Everek plains, they saw some Armenians who asked them in Armenian: "Where are you mindless people going?" to which they answered, "We're going to Van. We will go wherever the inhabitants of Van go." To this the Armenians showered them with insults and added "Turks left Van over six or seven days ago, and are refugees. The administration of Cevdet Pasha was over long time ago. Aram Pasha's Administration was formed. All of the wounded, hospitalised, women and children in Van were killed. Mosques were torched, barracks burned. We cut up all of the Muslims in Van. There were only 20-30 women remaining, and we gave them to Aram Pasha." To this, Circissian Ibo said that they would become prisoners, and proposed that they go to Zeve, which was very close to the lake. He suggested they could find a ship there and save the women and children. By the time this group of refugees reached our village (Zeve), we saw that there were over 2,000 of them. When we asked them what happened, they responded, "We were fleeing to Van, but Armenians stopped us and told as that the inhabitants of Van had already migrated, so we came here to acquire a ship in the hope of saving our women and children." It was spring and it was not easy to settle the refugees in our small village, but we did our best. We settled them in homes, tents, and barns. There were more than 2,000 of them, and they stayed with our villagers who numbered about 500. In addition, soldiers disbanded from the army came home to our village. You should have seen them. They had long beards, their uniforms were torn, they were full of lice. We settled them, too. One was my brother Necip, my cousin Mustafa, my brother-in-law Mehmet, my cousin Ilyas, Recep, son of Saban, Mustafa's son Seyyat, and Emrah's son Sukru. They were emaciated -just skin and bones. They took of their clothes and burned them and pulled of the lice. My uncle Yusuf was a good barber. After scrubbing their heads with hot water, he shaved them with a razor. Believe me, because of the lice, blood was dripping from their faces and eyes. They were somewhat more comfortable after that. Two days had passed. On the third day, the village Hodja began his morning call to prayer. Those who wanted to pray and the others went to work, There was a river in the middle of our village. If flows all the way from the Iranian border, and becomes a lake in the spring when the snow melts. But we were never sure exactly where this water came from. One day we heard a woman's voice from the other side of the river calling for someone to carry her to our side. On hearing this, my uncle grabbed his purse, followed the sounds, and was suprised to see, Esma, the daughter of Ahmet, who married someone in the Molla Kasim village. She promised to tell her story after my uncle helped her cross the river. He helped her onto the saddle and brought her to this side of the river. At this time the villagers had already finished their morning prayer and gathered around them. She told them to defend themselves that Hamit, Molla Kasim, and Ayanos had been killed, and that the perpetrators would be in our village any day now. The Hodja addressed the crowd with "Friends, we are Muslims. It doesn't fit our religion for us to die needlessly. We have about 60 weapons, 2 chests full of ammunition, and eight or nine soldiers with guns and bullets. Let's defend our village. My father's cousin, Hodya Osman who served with Cevdet Pasha had sent 60 guns and the ammunition." There were hills near our village, below the bridge. There were plains on the top, and grasslands below. The villagers took their positions on the top part of the hills, and waited for the Armenians to advance. When the Armenians surrounded the village on three fronts and attacked, our villagers were prepared. They fought the Armenians until noon. When our side charged them, the Armenians were startled. Some of them fled to Mermit village, while other went to Vadar village. Afterwards they started to re-grouping. There were other Armenian villages such as the enormous Alay village comprised of 400 homes. They gathered together, all of the Armenians, and again started a battle which continued until the end of the mid-afternoon prayer. After the mid-afternoon prayer, there were up to one hundred horses speeding down Erzurum Street which originated in Van. The villagers thought that they were Ottoman soldiers who came to their assistance after hearing gunfire, but soon saw that they were Russian Armenians who heard the gunfire and came to the village. The fighting started again, and our villagers started to run out of bullets. The Armenians saw this as an opportunity and entered the village by killing the Turks who were guarding it. The village was burning, and herds of people numbering two or three thousand started to flee. The Armenians were throwing small children in the air and piercing them with bayonets or sticking them in the stomach with bayonets. The children let out shrill cries and foil to the ground like baby birds. In desperation, some of the women and young girls threw themselves into the river, while others lit fire to bails of grass and threw themselves into the bonfire. They captured Corporal Seyat alive, laid him one the ground, undressed him, and skinned him alive. They also carved out his shoulders and carved into his sides, taunting him by saying that Sultan Resat promoted him and gave him a medal. The Armenians also set fire to the grass and threw some of our women and children into the fire and burned them alive. They sliced the throats of the rest of the survivors as if they were sacrificial lambs. Not one child survived. After massacring the entire village, they killed the five most attractive women; my cousin Sober, Esma, the headman's wife, a distant relative Hayriye, my aunt Aye, and Gll. Then they left. I'll explain to you how I survived even though the Armenians vowed to continue the massacres until we were all dead. My father was very well known, and he had extended much kindness to the Bardakci village. My father had once saved the life of Kirbe, and his son Asvador was among the Armenians. Although at the time my father was in Iran as a reserve officer, Asvador came to us during the massacre. Asvador told the Armenians not to touch me, my mother, and one of my sisters and saved our lives. After the Armenians left, Asvador took us out of hiding. The wounded were moaning from pain, begging for someone to wrap their wounds or give them some water. Asvador brought us to the Bardaci village where we stayed for some time. My cousin Sema in Bardakci would swear to us that in the evening the Armenians would come and pick out ten or eleven women out of the 150, and rape them until the morning. The women were covered with blood, and after they dropped them off they were unable to sit. Meanwhile a Russian government was established in Van and Aram Pasha became its leader. Aram Pasha's government proclaimed that any refugee who is in need of food or water is welcome to Van. My father at this time was in the Hacik village where he and my uncles were on Halil Pasha's boat. From there they went to a village in the Hosap region. When my uncles heard the proclamation they went to Van. They were shocked to see that the city was burned and completely destroyed. The city used to be at the foothill of the castle. Everything was completely destroyed: the buildings, barracks, mosques, bathhouses, and government buildings. My father was from the Hacbahan neighbourhood where there were Armenian homes and stores. Coincidentally, Asvador ran into him on the street. After the customary greeting, my father asked him if he had any news about our village. Asvador responded that they had slaughtered all of Zeve, but that his younger wife, child and daughter were safe with him. He volunteered to hand us over to my father. My father acknowledged the favour by Asvador, but feared that the Armenians would kill him if he went to the village, so he suggested that Asvador bring us to him instead so that he could take us away. When Asvador came to see us that night, he told us that he ran into my father, and that we should prepare ourselves so that he could take us to him. In the morning he loaded us onto an ox cart, took us to Van, and delivered Lis to my father. We didn't stay long because the Armenians were raiding a village; many people were fleeing either towards Iran, Mardin or Diyarbakir to save their lives. Q: Mr. Ibrahim, can you tell us about what happened in Van. Apparently the first revolt took place, where the castle was toppled by cannon fire, the city was completely destroyed, and an Armenian government was set up. Since you were in Zeve you may have seen the troubles in Van. Do you have any knowledge of the incidents in Van? Q: Mr. Ibrahim, is it possible that one of the reasons that the Russian soldiers did not touch your women was the possible presence of Turks in the Russian army? A: Yes. There were Crimean and Caucasian soldiers and officers. They protected our women because they too were Muslims. In fact, they even sent them back to their villages including the Molla Kasim village. During the massacres they could only send 30 of the 150 women. They planned to stay in the Molla Kasim village until the Ottoman military arrived. However, they were subject to even further hardships. When the Russians retreated, the Armenians stayed behind. The Armenians suggested that the Russians leave their weapons, ammunition, cannons, and supplies, so they could fight the Ottoman government. When the Russians left all of their equipment to them, the Armenians became even more ruthless and continued the massacres. When our army starting arriving from Bitlis to Gevas and clashing with these Armenians, the Armenians headed to Van toward Muradiye and Kars. They ultimately went to Russia and Iran. Only a handful of Armenians remained behind. They stayed on small islands in Lake Van such as Carpanak. Q: Were there any Armenians in yourk Zeve village? A: No, none. Q: Where were you at the time that the Armenians established an Armenian government with the Russians? A: We were in Zeve at the time. Q: How many people from Zeve survived? A: Including to myself, six women were saved from Zeve, and that was only because of a good deed my father had done earlier. Everyone else was murdered, including many women and children. Q: They say that a mosque near the Van castle was burned. Was this mosque in Van or Zeve? A: It was in Van, but mosques in Zeve were burned down as well. In Van they burned other mosques such as the Kayacelebi, Ulu, and Hsrev Pasha, as well as many smaller mosques. You can still see all of their traces. Q: Were there any people inside the mosques in Van when they were burned down? A: Without a doubt. Q: How about in Zeve? A: Many had gone into the mosque for protection. Among them were uncle Hamza, Dervis, and Derebeyli. I don't remember the names of the others except for a great personality in Zeve whose name you may have heard; Sultan Haci Hamza. He built the first dervish lodge in the area. Q: Isn't it true that during the massacres the Turks sought refuge in the lodge thinking that they would not be killed? A: They sought shelter in the tomb, not the lodge. Q: They say that the Armenians burned down the tomb, is that right? A: It is true. They set fire to the tomb too, and threw everyone inside killed, but three people survived. Unfortunately, mosques, tombs made no difference to them. They burned them down with everyone inside. I hope God will protect us from similar events in the future. Ayse Sevimli Father's Name : Dervis
We had no ammunition or weapons assistance. When the Armenians entered our village, some of our men died fighting; others were burned in their homes. I hid with my mother and some others in a barn further away from the fighting grounds I got under a large basket. The Armenians killed everyone they found and also fired at the barns. A bullet hit my mother's scarf, but she was not hurt. I know of only two other women who survived. The Armenians went to Bardakci before they came to our village. My God, when we went out at night, blood, gunfire, mourning, and wailing filled the air. I saw them torturing people by cutting "pockets" out of skin while mockingly telling them they were decorating them with medals. When we approached the Bardakci village, I saw that on the other side of the brook, in the field near Mehmet's house they had tied the arms of five men together and were shooting at them. When they fell to the ground, they stabbed them with bayonets. My mother handed them all of her money and valuables so that we would not be hurt. They then brought us to Van, and tortured the prisoners in unmentionable ways. We stayed in the military barracks for four months. We later became refugees and remained as such until April 1918. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 12:49
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I answered to this in the other thread(about the testimonies), as for the Jews, you have no idea of what you are talking about. Zundel thesis regarding the Holocaust is much like the same as yours regarding the Armenian genocide. You only think that while he is wrong you are right. As for the rest, again, the big boy playing the ball game throwing back the ball as if redirecting my accusations would make of this redirection valid. Before you start Bullsh*ting, you should read Nogales work to which revisionists reffer often to support their thesis. The Armenian properties were cannonated to the ground..., in Van, Djevet(the brother in law of Enver) who replaced the previous governor was placed there specialy for the genocide. Nogales or Ussher, or the Red Cross, which mission was attacked in Van by the Ottoman all report what happened there. Testimonies from people that have every reason to lie is not as much credible that dispatches and reports, and more so when the Ottoman allies in their secret reports also report that there was no such thing as an Armenian revolution or mass butcheries of Muslim. If you don't mind, I will believe the Ottoman allies, as well as the German show served in one Branch of the special organization and that he almost became insane from what he've seen was planned against the Armenians by the Special Organization. You should read his report. Live in your mass psychosis, you are so good at it.
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Posted By: Fadix
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 12:58
You are mostly right, but Ottoman script numbers are written from right to left, but each nubers higher than 9, their individual numerals are from left to right. That is what I remember in my Arabic courses. But you are right about the zeros, but it doesn't change a thing about the fact that the same document has zeros added. |