Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide?

ok picture this, Ottoman Empire, German ally, if one million Turks died
why would the Germans not take pictures!? how is it, that a German took
pictures of the millions of Armenians that died!?

isnt Germany considered west? isnt Austria-Hungary considered west?
isnt Italy considered west (albeit neutral), isnt USA considered west
(neutral). again, all evidence from all these countries point to massacre of
Armenian instead of massacre of Turks because Armenians really WERE
massacred in far greater numbers

what do you mean it smacks racism? When I say the Turkish evidence
trying to disprove the Genocide are lies does this also smack racism?

Originally posted by bg_turk It is not the Turks fault that the "objective" Westeners of the time were all gangin upon their country and did not care about the millions of Muslims that lost their lives. Who was to record the autrocities against the Muslims if not them?

     So the Ottoman Empire never ganged up on other weaker countries in order to take power? Thats news to me.

Originally posted by bg_turk Your "spontaneity" argument hold no ground,  how is it possible that  Armenians have "spontaneously" decided to kill Turkish women and children and have in fact "spontaneously" cleansed the city of Van from all of its muslims inhabitants... Armenian rebels won in Van before the Russians had even arrived in the area, their actions were planned and synchronized with the Russians - their victory was shortlived, but if they had succeeded the ethnic cleansing and massacres of Muslims in Van would have been rendered permament.

     The fact that the warcrimes against Turks happened after Armenians were attacked in their own villages and cities (according to your sources), means that it was not planned beforehand, but was an erroneous backlash. So all warcrimes are genocides now? And how are these cities "cleansed" of their Muslims inhabitants...I don't see any Christians living there anymore.

Originally posted by bg_turk The participation of  Armenians at almost all level of the Russian army (General Adrianik and  General Nazarbekian) is well known.

     General Andranik was the leader of a group of Armenian units UNDER Russian command. When the Russians left in 1917, he obviously stayed where the remaining Armenians were, and tried to muster up defenses (not more than 35,000 men, as even your sources stated). In 1918, with the Russian military gone, they founded the First Republic of Armenia (which did not include any territory from Ottoman Armenia, only Russian Armenia).  And how does that prove that Armenians were at every level of command of the Russian army? You are assuming that the Armenians controlled Russian strategy and the Russian army.

Originally posted by bg_turk Armenians always had the master plan of creating an ARMENIAN Republic  of the Armenians, which would rid them of the evil and barbaric Muslims forever, it was ingrained in their patriotic education.

     Again, you ASSUME that all Armenians had a "master plan" of betraying the Ottoman Empire. So do you also believe that Jews run the world? Because those are the types of stereotypes you are basing your entire argument on. Armenians actually got along fine with Turks prior to WW1. I would like to see anything pointing to the contrary.

Edited by ArmenianSurvival

I think I repeated myself, sorry for the doublepost

Yes,but I feel that the truth is that there was a grand-scale project by the ottoman state  in order to exterminate the Armenian ottoman subjects.This is the only truth,there can't be other truth except for this.I don't know why the Turkish government denies this genocide.Maybe it is the huge financial cost of having to pay amendments to the victims...
in this case Turkey would possibly go bankrupt

Originally posted by RomiosArktos Yes,but I feel that the truth is that there was a grand-scale project by the ottoman state  in order to exterminate the Armenian ottoman subjects.This is the only truth,there can't be other truth except for this.I don't know why the Turkish government denies this genocide.Maybe it is the huge financial cost of having to pay amendments to the victims... in this case Turkey would possibly go bankrupt

honestly think its pride, not money, they are totally convinced that even these accusations are aimed at them and turkey, completly missing that this is about the perpertraters aswell as today's denial. Somehow this is all an attack on them and their history.

There is a big case of 'we are the victims' in alot of these posts.

Originally posted by RomiosArktos This is the only truth,there can't be other truth except for this.

Blaise Pascal once wisely said:

There are truths on this side of the Pyranees, which are falsehoods on the other.

If you think you know the absolute and only truth, and there are no other truths, then you dont know the first thing about it. The truth is rarely pure and never simple.

 

Originally posted by bg_turk Originally posted by mamikon Turkish website? helloooo..it says Turkish Ministry of Culture, its not just some website, the the government, we all know what their stand is, and how they unearthe "Turkish" corpses now and then. The Turkish Ministry of Culture is biased obviously, as is the Armenian National Institute. You have every right to challenge their views, I too disagree with some of the information that is presented there. But what I strongly object to�is your denialist attitude towards the images presented there, and your implication that just because they are taken by Turks, they must be inherently untrustworthy and false.

no, the fact that they are on the website make the pictures inherently
biased, untrustworthy and false, not because they are taken by Turks
(which they are)

Edited by mamikon

armenian +greek+persian=wonderful couples

 

bg turk

 

when you (some Turks in general) blatantly deny the Genocide, which
everyone accepts except you, why do you whine when no one comes to
argue in your favor...

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival The fact that the warcrimes against Turks happened after Armenians were attacked in their own villages and cities (according to your sources),

excuse me but it was clearly an Armenian source. That some Turkish chetes decided to kill Armenian men in the city of Van does not justify the killings of Turkish women and children in the town.

... means that it was not planned beforehand, but was an erroneous backlash.

Apparently, you think that Turks were aggressive and barbaric, whereas Armenians were peaceful and civilized; that Turks were the initiators, whereas Armenians were responders; that Turks comitted massacres "systematically", whereas Armenians did so "spontaneously"; that Turks killed intentionally, but Armenians did so only in error. I am sorry but I cannot accept this line of reasoning. The Turks and Armenians are not inherently different. Unlike the Holocaust, there was no supremacist ideology that Turks were the supreme race, and Armenian an inferior one ; unlike the Rwandan genocide where Hutus indiscriminately killed Tutsi children and women, Turkish families did in fact adopt many Armenian orphans and many Armenian women were forced to marry into Turkish families - this conflict bore all characteristics of an interethnic strife, and no characteristics of racial supremacy or dehumanisation of the other groups,  the two groups were both fighting for their survival, and viewed the other one as a threat to its survival. Armenians suffered more casualties than the Turks only because the balance of power turned in favor of the Turks.

So all warcrimes are genocides now? And how are these cities "cleansed" of their Muslims inhabitants...I don't see any Christians living there anymore.

Yes, Armenians were cleansed from these places and they are no longer any Armenians in Van. But muslims were clansed when the balance of power was on the Armenian side. Had Armenians retained control, do you think there would be any muslims there now?

General Andranik was the leader of a group of Armenian units UNDER Russian command. When the Russians left in 1917, he obviously stayed where the remaining Armenians were, and tried to muster up defenses (not more than 35,000 men, as even your sources stated). In 1918, with the Russian military gone, they founded the First Republic of Armenia (which did not include any territory from Ottoman Armenia, only Russian Armenia).  And how does that prove that Armenians were at every level of command of the Russian army? You are assuming that the Armenians controlled Russian strategy and the Russian army.

I am saying that Armenians took active and enthusiastic participation in the actions of the Russian Army, and they were present in almost every level of command in the Russian army - from the general to the ordinary soldier.

Again, you ASSUME that all Armenians had a "master plan" of betraying the Ottoman Empire. So do you also believe that Jews run the world? Because those are the types of stereotypes you are basing your entire argument on.

They did not view it as "betraying". For them the Ottoman Empire was a repressive authority (and to a degree it was), they wanted to rid themselves of it and its supporters, they looked forward to its dissolution and destruction. Creating an Armenian state on a land which they viewed as Armenian for them would not have been betrayal, it would be the most natural thing to do. In fact just the opposite, not taking up arms against the Ottoman Empire would be a betrayal to their patriotic ideals and aspirations. But Armenians were weak and scattered, they could not achieve this task on their own, and in order to rid themselves of the Turks Armenians placed their hopes on Russia:

From the early 17th century, Armenians began to place their hopes on the growing Russian Power. A number of messengers were sent to the Russian czars in order to ask protection. The rich Armenian community of New Julfa made the czar Alexis I Mikhailovich a sumptuous present of a golden throne adorned with precious stones. In the late 17th century, the ties with Russia strengthened as military victories of Peter the Great over Persians and Turks inspired Armenians. At the same time, a number of patriots, such as Israel Ori, traveled all over the Europe trying to find support of Christian powers.

http://www.armenianhistory.info/under.htm

Edited by bg_turk