Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide?

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2005/04/28/opinion /12779.shtml

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 15:53

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

I know you believe a genocide took place, but you claim that the genocide was mutual. You're going to blame a "genocide against Turks" on some guerillas who were kicked out of their cities and had their families murdered by Turkish soldiers?

The Armenian guerillas took advantage of the absence of the muslim men and took "their revenge" on mainly elderly people, children and women. It was when the muslim soldiers reclaimed the lands lost to the Russians or when they returned from the front that the inhumane killing spree against the Armenian started.

For instance here is an account by a turk from the village of Hacin:

My grandmother was named after her sister whom she never saw. Her sister was slaughtered with the rest of the Turks in their village, Hacin, while the Turkish men of the village were on the WWI front. The population of Hacin consisted of Turks and Armenians who lived together for centuries. My grandmother's family was especially close to their Armenian neighbors. No Muslim villager who resided in Hacin at the time of the massacre survived. My great uncle, who refused to fight for the Sultan and hid in the mountains, returned to his village after the end of the war. Their Armenian neighbors showed him the bodies of his mother, and the rest of Hacin's Turkish population. They were dumped in a cave near the village. My great uncle asked his neighbors who did this and they replied "The youth, the Armenian youth. We could not control them. We only prevented them from torturing your old mother."

Source:

A genocide is something planned by a government entity which plans to wipe out an entire group based on ethnicity or religion. Armenian guerillas who were kicked out of their homes who went of and killed Turks does not fall under this category. Their action was spontaneous. Doesn't matter if its wrong, its SPONTANEOUS REACTION, NOT PLANNED, and its definitely not being carried out by a government entity.

For something to qualify as genocide it does not have to be necessarily planned by a government. It is clear that for the Armenians and Russians it was necessary to remove the muslims from the territories in order to pave the way for independent Armenia, and in this respect the destruction and burning of muslim villages as described by witness account was systematic and intentional, it was a necessary step in order to reach the final aim of an Armenian state with an Armenian majority.

The fate of the Armenians on the other hand, was decided by government order (relocations based solely on ethnic background), and it was planned (unless you mean to tell me relocations are not planned

). So how do you compare the killing of Armenians to the killing of Turks? They are both horrible, but one was planned and carried out by a GOVERNMENT ENTITY, while the other was the spontaneous (although unjustified) reaction by groups of individuals independent of any government order. How does the killing of Turks constitute as genocide?

What was planned by the Ottoman government were the relocations, not the killings. To date there is no physical evidence in the form of Ottoman documents to suggest that the Ottoman government ordered the destruction of the entire Armenian population.

One could argue that the killings that occurred during these relocations were equally spontaneous but I do not really see the point in that given the magnitude of those killings.

A killing would be spontaneous if you had one or two murders or maybe an isolated massacre in a village. But in this case we are talking about the deaths of 500 thousand muslims (according to Halacoglu), the destruction and massacre of not one or two but many muslim villages in Eastern Anatolia (or Western Armenia) - these are definitely not spontaneous killings but part of a well-planned campaign to purge muslims from their homeland - a campaign of ethnic cleansing of genoicidial proportions which was neither the first one, nor the last one to be performed by the Russians and their christian allies within the Ottoman Empire (Balkans 1878, Crimea 1853).

Edited by bg_turk

bg_turk

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 16:27

Originally posted by armenica

McCarthy is not a credible name to use if I were you.

Since when is McCarthy not a credible source? Is he not credible because he does not support your views? Are Akcam (tried for terrorism in Turkey) or Balakian (an English professor) more credible historians in your eyes?

First of all I never put words in your mouth, you did state that the dead people on the image are Armenians and "nothing else". In any case this is not important, but you should have at least said that this is only your personal opinion.

Second, it was not me who brought this image up, and even though my assumptions are as theoretical as anybody else's, the responsibility to clarify what the image depcits and its sources rests entirely upon the party which brings it up as evidence. Since that party has failed to fulfil this responsibility, I am allowed to speculate (as are you by the way) on what this image depicts.

There is no way that you can dismiss this picture displaying Russian soldiers who have discovered slaughtered Armenians or a mass grave after their conquering of some Armenian town or village.

I have every right to dismiss this claim since it is nothhing but your own personal assumption. Are there any sources on the web that support this claim of yours that the people on the image are Russians who have discovered an Armenian mass grave?

Edited by bg_turk

http://www.zaman.com/include/yazdir.php?bl=national&alt= &trh=20050307&hn=14997

mamikon

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 16:29

Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Spartakus

This image can be from the Russian Civil War,and those dead people can be Bolsheviks.

yes it is, like the "others".

Mamikon, what whas the source you gave me in an other armenian topic when i asked for more pictures you gave me a link. What whas the link again?

Thanks in advance.

did I give you Wikipedia? I am pretty sure I didnt. I gave you this link I believe

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photointro.html

Edited by mamikon

mamikon

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 16:52

"The Armenian guerillas took advantage of the absence of the muslim men and took "their revenge" on mainly elderly people, children and women. It was when the muslim soldiers reclaimed the lands lost to the Russians or when they returned from the front that the inhumane killing spree against the Armenian started.

For instance here is an account by a turk from the village of Hacin:"

Do you have actual evidence that Armenian guerrilas destroyed Turkish villages before WWI? I dont think so...the quote you posted was a letter from someone to the editor of the Daily Pincetonian. The person could have lied, how do we know? Note that the person only shares his story, and lets not forget, each and every one of the millions of Armenian abroad have a similar story, but we dont use those to prove that Genocide has ocurred...

"For something to qualify as genocide it does not have to be necessarily planned by a government. It is clear that for the Armenians and Russians it was necessary to remove the muslims from the territories in order to pave the way for independent Armenia, and in this respect the destruction and burning of muslim villages as described by witness account was systematic and intentional, it was a necessary step in order to reach the final aim of an Armenian state with an Armenian majority."

Independent Armenia? Russians did not want to create an Independent Armenia...it was WWI and the Ottomans and Russians were on different sides...most of the burning of the villages comes from the retaliation of surviving Armenians, and from Eastern Armenians who witnessed the Genocide, they did not want to "exterminate the Turkish race", if they did wouldnt you expect ALL of the Turks residing in western Armenia to have died? since Russia did reach Erzurum and even more inland during the war...did 3 million Turks die? no...the numbers are in thousands, did 1.5 million Armenians die? yes, yes they did.

"What was planned by the Ottoman government were the relocations, not the killings. To date there is no physical evidence in the form of Ottoman documents to suggest that the Ottoman government ordered the destruction of the entire Armenian population."

So let me get this straight...you are saying it is possible to walk for weeks without food and water, constantly harassed by bandits, through a scorching desert, and still survive?

There probably is a physical evidence but we dont know it...(we, as in the people in the forums)

"A killing would be spontaneous if you had one or two murders or maybe an isolated massacre in a village. But in this case we are talking about the deaths of 500 thousand muslims (according to Halacoglu), the destruction and massacre of not one or two but many muslim villages in Eastern Anatolia (or Western Armenia) - these are definitely not spontaneous killings but part of a well-planned campaign to purge muslims from their homeland - a campaign of ethnic cleansing of genoicidial proportions which was neither the first one, nor the last one to be done by the Russians (Balkans 1878, Crimea 1853)"

Professor Halacoglu calculates the loss of life by Armenian emigrants in 1915 as 80,000 - need I say more?

And again, what do the Balkans have to do with Armenia? Turkish supression in the Balkans is not a context to eradicate a peaceful Armenian population...you cant justify the Genocide by saying "well we were treated badly in the Balkans, so we can kill you now". Plus why arent you also giving the number of Bulgars and Greeks that were killed, when under the Ottoman Empire?

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 17:14

   bg_turk,

     Like most people caught in paranoia, you believe there was some "secret plan" made by Russians and Armenians prior to the war to expell all Turks from their lands. So tell me why Armenians in the Ottoman Empire adamantly supported the Young Turks' rise to power? When they saw the Young Turks went back on their promose of equal minority rights, and started uprooting all Armenians (every single Armenian outside of Istanbul), thats when Armenians resisted with whatever means they could (many Armenians were in the Ottoman army, incase you didn't know). All evidence points to the fact that prior to WW1 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire supported their own country, the Ottoman Empire. You would have to go against all established historical doctrines to make a claim to the contrary.

     How was there a "shortage of Muslim men" in the eastern provinces? How do Turkish sources claim the number of Armenians in the empire to be much lower than it actually was, while at the same time accusing Armenians of killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims? Please explain how this is possible.

To others:

     No one has answered the question of why hundreds of thousands of women and children were uprooted from their homes only on the basis that they were Armenian. Are you guys trying to avoid the question? If you answer "yes, it was wrong of them to do that, but it wasn't genocide", then you're showing your ignorance to everybody. Why would they uproot women and children and try to relocated them WITHOUT RESOURCES, unless they had a greater plan that they were trying to hide under the guise of WW1?

     I'm sure the Serbs were just trying to relocate the Bosnians, right? According to the Turkish argument, all the Serb soldiers performing terrorism against Bosnian citizens can't be attributed to the central authority of Serbia. Therefore, its not a genocide, according to the logic of the Turkish argument. And all the Bosnians that were fighting back were all part of a master plan prior to the war to overthrow Serbian rule and to kill all Serbs. If no one held Serbia accountable for over 90 years, and then used these same arguments against Bosnians, it would be much like what we are seeing with the Turkish argument. See how easy it is to dust off accusations?

Edited by ArmenianSurvival

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bg_turk

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 17:41

Originally posted by mamikon

What kind of evidence do you expect me to give when you dismiss the statement of every turkish witness as a lie and you question the credibility of the historians that I quote?!

Note that the person only shares his story, and lets not forget, each and every one of the millions of Armenian abroad have a similar story, but we dont use those to prove that Genocide has ocurred...

There are as many Turkish witness acounts.

Independent Armenia? Russians did not want to create an Independent Armenia...

What did they try to do? Didn't most armenians of the time view them as liberators?

it was WWI and the Ottomans and Russians were on different sides...most of the burning of the villages comes from the retaliation of surviving Armenians, and from Eastern Armenians who witnessed the Genocide, they did not want to "exterminate the Turkish race", if they did wouldnt you expect ALL of the Turks residing in western Armenia to have died? since Russia did reach Erzurum and even more inland during the war...did 3 million Turks die? no...the numbers are in thousands,

Would you please provide a source for this claim of yours that the numbers are "in the thousands"? Or did you just make it up?

So let me get this straight...you are saying it is possible to walk for weeks without food and water, constantly harassed by bandits, through a scorching desert, and still survive?

A significant portion of the exiles did actually survive.

Professor Halacoglu calculates the loss of life by Armenian emigrants in 1915 as 80,000 - need I say more?

You, and I suppose other Armenian scholars calculate the Muslims loss in only several thousands, and some dont even bothered with the number of muslims who have been killed at the same time in the same area, need I say more?

Because the precedent of the Balkans was the example Armenians followed in creating their state. The Balkans was exactly what would have happened in Eastern Anatolia had Turks lost the war against the Armenians and the Russians.

Plus why arent you also giving the number of Bulgars and Greeks that were killed, when under the Ottoman Empire?

They are doing a great job of it already.

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Chieftain

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 17:45

Originally posted by bg_turk

What did they try to do? Didn't most armenians of the time view them as liberators?

This is because the Russian advance into Anatolia was AFTER the Ottomans started uprooting/killing Armenians (April 1915). What were they going to do, side with the Ottomans and fight the Russians?

How did Armenians kill so many Muslims when all evidence points to the fact that they were all being deported?

Originally posted by bg_turk

Because the precedent of the Balkans was the example Armenians followed in creating their state. The Balkans was exactly what would have happened in Eastern Anatolia had Turks lost the war against the Armenians and the Russians.

And what does the creation of an Armenian state (only in the interest of a vast minority of Armenians) have to do with uprooting hundreds of thousands of women and children, causing the majority of them to die?

Edited by ArmenianSurvival

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bg_turk

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 17:48

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

bg_turk,

Like most people caught in paranoia, you believe there was some "secret plan" made by Russians and Armenians prior to the war to expell all Turks from their lands.

It is not my paranoic belief, many of the muslims in the territories of the short lived Armenian state fled for their lives, were expelled or massacred.

Edited by bg_turk

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Chieftain

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 17:51

Originally posted by bg_turk

It is not my paranoic belief, many of the muslims in the territories of the short lived Armenian state fled for their lives, were expelled and massacred.

You realize that the western portion of this "state" had all of its Armenian population deported, right? So who killed these Turks if all the Armenians had been removed?

Edited by ArmenianSurvival

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mamikon

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 18:46

"What kind of evidence do you expect me to give when you dismiss the statement of every turkish witness as a lie and you question the credibility of the historians that I quote?!"

I repeat: Professor Halacoglu calculates the loss of life by Armenian emigrants in 1915 as 80,000 - need I say more?

Well you are trying to find evidence to disprove the Genocide by naming such and such historians who make wild and incorrect claims. Well the fact that you cant find any good articles to prove your point means that the Armenian Genocide did take place.

"There are as many Turkish witness acounts."

There are Turkish witness accounts, Armenian witness accounts, and "other" witness accounts guess which one is used to prove that there really was an Armenian Genocide...( I know you will say Armenian, so I will just give the answer: "other")

"

What did they try to do? Didn't most armenians of the time view them as liberators?"

Wouldnt you view them as liberators if someone has decimated your whole population just last year?

"Would you please provide a source for this claim of yours that the numbers are "in the thousands"? Or did you just make it up?"

Well I never heard that the number exceed a million. And I never heard that the number was less then a thousand. Then the numbers must be "in the thousands" no?

"A significant portion of the exiles did actually survive."

If one 1.5 million had died then which significant portion survived? and did the whole Armenian population go through the Syrian desert? no...but thats another story, I was trying to point out how ridiculous it sounds when you say "just because they were told to march for a couple of weeks without resources, doesnt mean that would die..."

"You, and I suppose other Armenian scholars calculate the Muslims loss in only several thousands, and some dont even bothered with the number of muslims who have been killed at the same time in the same area, need I say more?"

When did I say several...?

And when they calculate, they calculate how many Turks have died as Armenians retaliated AFTER the Genocide, not for the whole Turkish casualties during WWI.

"Because the precedent of the Balkans was the example Armenians followed in creating their state. The Balkans was exactly what would have happened in Eastern Anatolia had Turks lost the war against the Armenians and the Russians."

There was no WAR between Armenians and Turks before WWI. All Armenians supported the Young Turk Movement. Yes Armenians fought alongside the Russians, they were Eastern Armenians. Western Armenians would have fought by the Ottoman side if they were given the chance. But no...already in the army, they were taken out and forced to work as slaves or shot, thrown of the cliffs, starved...

"They are doing a great job of it already."

You also seemed to be forgetting that the Turks attacked and occupied them, not the other ways around. What gives them the right to occupy other nations in the first place?...but again, this has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide

bg_turk

(*) http://www.russianwarrior.com/1914_History.htm

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 19:05

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

How was there a "shortage of Muslim men" in the eastern provinces?

Because most of the muslim males were in the army. They were fighting an uphill battle against the Russians (*)

How do Turkish sources claim the number of Armenians in the empire to be much lower than it actually was, while at the same time accusing Armenians of killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims? Please explain how this is possible.

You are right that Armenians alone would never have been able to commit autrocities of this scale against the turks, but you conveniently forget the fact that they were not alone. They were aided by their Russian allies. Russia had 12 million personel who served in the Great War**, a portion of which was deployed on the Eastern Front within the Ottoman Empire.

As a result of the Russian offensive and Armenia collaboration, Van lost 62%, Bitlis 42%, Erzurum 31%, Diyarbekir 26% of their respective Muslim populations***.

Also not all of the Turkish losses are due to massacres - a significant portion of the losses is due to hunger and epidemics during the muslim exile from the occupied territories.

(**) http://www.russianwarrior.com/1914_Losses.htm

(***) http://www.jstor.org/view/01979183/di009794/00p0244f/2?frame =noframe&userID=a3019f08

Edited by bg_turk

mamikon

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 19:21

Where does it say the number of Turks massacred? maybe the link doesnt work for me..

but did you see how in many places it was written "Armenians massacred by Turks", "Armenians again massacred by Turks", "Turks massacre Armenian populations" "Turks massacre Christians"

and how do these sites pose a credible source?

http://www.jstor.org/view/01979183/di009794/00p0244f/2?frame =noframe&userID=a3019f08

nice try, thats a book review of McCarthy's book, and we all know what he wrote...

Edited by mamikon

bg_turk

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 19:28

People have attempted to portray the Turks as the agressors in the conflict, but if you follow the history of the Russo-Turkish war of the time you will note that it was a history of Turkish defeats. Had it not been for the Bolshevik revolution, today Eastern Anatolia would probably be part of Greater Armenia.

Here is a timeline of the events on the Caucasus front (from a Russian source):

1915

1-4 January Battle of Sarikamish Turkish forces under Ahmet Pasha were defeated by the Russians at the Battle of Sarikamis. The Turks lose 77,000 men of their original 95,000.

3 January Heavy fighting at Ardahan in the Caucasus region.

13-16 January Battle of Kara Urgan in Armenia between Russians and Turks. After several days of heavy fighting the Russian army takes 4,000 Turkish prisoners and routs the Turkish army there.

23 January Two Turkish divisions are defeated by Russian army at Khorsan.

30 January Turks are defeated by Russians at Sufian, and are driven back from Tabriz

21 February Turks driven across river Ichkalen in Armenia.

1 April In the Caucasus the Russians occupy Tsria.

6 April Russians enter Artvin in Armenia.

8 April Ottoman Turks begin deporting and massacring Armenians.

26 April Russian troops in Armenia advance on Olty.

27 April Russian forces expel Turkish defenders from Kutur in Persia.

5 May Russian troops decisively defeat a Turkish force in Armenia.

7 May Turks begin massacre of Christians.

11 May Russian troops make gains in Tabriz district.

17 May Ardjuche on Lake Van is occupied by Russian troops in Armenia.

21 May Turks retreat on Bitlis river in Kurdistan.

25 May Miandob in Persia is occupied by Russian troops.

27-28 May On Lake Van, Vastan is occupied by Russian troops.

10 July Turkish troops attack Russians near Karaderbent in the Caucasus.

27 July Turkish troops force Russian army back near Mush in Asia Minor.

5 August Russians capture Turkish positions near Olti and Sarikamish in the Caucasus, and repel later Turkish attacks.

9 August 255,000 Armenians from Van migrate into Caucasus region.

10 August Russians pursue the Turks on the Upper Euphrates river and capture critical high ground in Passin valley.

12 August In Armenia Russian left flank reoccupies Alshgerd.

16 August Turks driven back near Olti in Caucasus.
In Armenia Russian troops enter Van. They also announce the defeat of the Turks in a communique and occupy Kep.

25 August Turks again massacre Armenian civilians.

12 October Russian forces repel Turks in Van pass and and Arkhava.

14 November In Persia the Turks and Germans are defeated by Russians. Turkish ambassador and Austro-German Ministers leave the country.

26 November Turks and Kurds are defeated by Russian troops who occupy Karaj and Yengi Iman some 40 miles from Tehran.

9 December Russian troops occupy Sultan Bulak pass in Persia. Turco-German mercenaries are routed by Russians in Hamadan.

17 December Russian troops drive hundreds of Kurds into the mountains

20 December Russians in Persia take Kum and stop German intrigue there. Turkish strength in Armenia is now 11 divisions.

1916

10 January Russian offensive begins in Armenia.

13 January Turkish troops reported at Kermanshah in Persia.

15 January Kangavar is occupied by Russian troops.

16 January Russians are forced to evacuate Kangavar.
Large scale Russian offensive begins in Transcaucasia

17 January Turkish troops retreat towards Erzerum

18 January Hasan-Kala in Armenia is taken by Russian forces.

20 January Russian troops take Sultanabad in Persia and make progress in Armenia.

29 January Russians bombard ridge protecting Erzerum.

1 February Russians drive Turks back in Kermanshah district and Armenian offensive continues to make gains.

13 February Russian forces take a fort at Erzerum.
In Armenia the town of Khanys is occupied by Russians.
Daultabad in Persia is taken by Russian troops.

14 February Another fort at Erzerum falls to the Russians.

16 February Erzerum falls to Russians.
13,000 prisoners and 323 guns are captured. Arabs desert the Turkish army in large numbers. By taking the city the Russians relieve pressure on the Egyptian front.

18 February Mush and Aklat in Armenia are taken by Russian troops.

22 February Russian troops approach Trebezond.

26 February Ashkala in Armenia is occupied by Russians.

2 March Bitlis falls to Russian troops in Armenia.

4 March Russians land east of Trebizond at Atina.

9 March Turkish forces are driven beyond the river Kalopotamos.
Germans are reported to be leaving Ispahan in Persia.

17 March Russians continue their advance west of Erzerum.

26 March Russians make progress in Armenia along the upper Chorok river.

27 March River Baltachi Darassi in Armenia is crossed by Russian troops.

31 March Turkish forces in Armenia are defeated by Russians at Kara Malachkan.

2 April Russian troops in Armenia cross the upper Chorok and take fortified mountain positions.

5 April German warship 'Breslau' assists Turkish forces near Trebizond

6 April Russian troops in Armenia drive Turks across Kara Dere.

7 April Russians repulse three Turkish attacks on Kara Dere.

13 April After six days of fighting Russian troops repulse Turkish forces west of Erzerum.

15 April Near Bitlis Russian forces make gains.

16 April After 9 days of fighting Russians take position along the left bank of Kara Dere.

17 April Russian troops in Armenia occupy Surmeneh and reach Assene Kalessi.

18 April Trebeizond falls to Russians.
Russian troops also make progress west of Erzerum.

20 April Russians take positions in the Bitlis region.

5 May Turkish forces defeated by Russians at Sermil in Persia.

8 May Turkish forces claim victory over Russians at Pirnakapan in Armenia.

9 May Turkish forces defeat Russian troops in Armenia near Bashkeui.

13 May Turkish forces defeated at Ashkale in Armenia.

15 May Russian forces capture Rowanduz east of Mosul.

16 May Russians advance on Mosul.

21 May Russians repulse Turkish attacks south of Trebizond

24 May Russian in Armenia capture Mamakhatun.

27 May A joint Turkish-Kurdish force is repulsed by Russians near Serdasht.

1 June Turks launch offensive in Armenia.

2 June Turkish troops are repulsed by Russians between Erzerum and Erzingan. Turks then retreat some 25 miles.

After three days fighting Turks retire west of Rowanduz.

3 June Turks defeated by Russians at Khanikin in Persia. Russians also repulse Turkish attacks in Asia Minor at Diarbekr.

5 June Russians evacuate Khanikin.

6 June Russian advance is stopped at Diarbekr.

11 June Turkish attacks at Platina are repelled by Russians west of Trebizond

12 June Turkish camp near Diarbekr is captured by Russians.
Russians also repel Turkish attack at Rowanduz

14 June Near Chorok the Russian army regains lost ground.

19 June Turks attack Russians at Saripul in Persia and are repelled.

26 June In northern Persia Russian army advances west.
Turks prepare to evacuate Mosul.
Turkish forces also driven from Lake Urmia in Persia.

1 July Turkish troops in Persia defeat Russian force and pursue it to Kermanshah.

12 July Russian troops under Gen. Yudenich advance west of Erzerum and recapture Mamakhatun.

19 July Russian forces in Persia are defeated and driven north of Kermanshah by Turkish forces.

20 July Russians capture Gumishkhanek in Armenia.

23 July Russian army advances on Erzingan in Armenia as Turks retreat.

25 July Erzingan is captured by Russian army in Armenia.

27 July Turkish attack near Mosul is repulsed.
Russian army advances towards Sivas.

31 July Russians in Armenia continue to pursue retreating Turkish forces amid stubborn resistance.

2 August Turkish counter-attack retakes Mush and Bitlis in Armenia

3 August Turkish trenches at Ognut in Armenia fall to Russian troops.

5 August Russian offensive make progress 30 miles north of Erzingan.

6 August Strong Turkish attacks in Armenia are repelled by Russians.
Russians are driven back by the Turks east of Kermanshah in Persia.

8 August Turks occupy Mush and Bitlis.

23 August Turks defeated at Rayat and lose 2,300 men as prisoners.

Russians retake Bitlis.

28 August Russians encounter Turkish forces occur south of Erzerum

1 September Chormuk is captured by Russian forces.

4 September Russian offensive west of Trebizond continues. Over 500 prisoners are taken.

27 November Russians drive back Turkish forces in Persia and capture a large amount of war material.

30 November Russians push 30 miles into Persia.

25 December Turkish force attacks Russians around Van in Armenia.

28 December Russians drive off Turkish forces south of Van.

1917

2 March Russian troops occupy town of Hamadan.

8 March Russian troops leaving Hamadan engage and rout a Turkish force that is forced to withdraw to Hajiabad.

9 March Retreating Turkish troops are attacked by Russians near Sivas in Asia Minor.

Russian scouts advance southwest of Sakis.
Sinnah is captured.
Turkish forces are in general retreat throughout Persia.
Persian government is invited to take possession of towns the Russians have taken in Persia.

10 March British troops push Turkish forces to within three miles of Baghdad.

13 March Kermanshah falls to Russian forces after two days fighting.
Another group of Russian forces approaches Bana some 140 miles northwest of Kermanshah.

16 March Russian troops force Turks from the summit of Naleskian in Persia. They also occupy Alliabad and engage Turks near Kerind.

17 March After heavy fighting Russians occupy Kerind and pursue fleeing Turks along the Tehran road.

18 March Russians in Armenia enter Van.

21 March Russian forces continue to pursue Turks from Sakiz towards Kermanshah.

28 March Russians launch attacks on Magyaros ridge, but they fail.

1 April Russians make progress towards Khanikin some 85 miles northeast of Baghdad.
Turks retreat to Kasr-i-Shirin in Persia

2 April British and Russian troops link up at Kizil-Robat.

3 April Russian cavalry occupies Kasr-i-Shirin and Khanikin.

9 April Kizil-Robot is occupied by Russian troops.

21 April Cossacks repulse Kurds on river Diala.

1 May Mush is occupied by Turkish forces.

5 May Russian forces near Mush and Oghnut withdraw.

13 May Russian detachments are forced to retire across the river Diala towards Kifri. This greatly enhances the Turkish chances of retreat.

17 May Kurds attack Russian rear positions near Khanikin.

26 June Russian forces take Serdesht in Persia

9 July Russian army reports that increasing Turkish pressure along the Mesopotamian front is causing them to evacuate towns.

23 September Russian forces successfully attack Turkish troops near Ortobo.

3 October Russians take Nereman village north of Mosul.

7 November Bolshevik revolution spreads in Petrograd

31 December Civil War rages across Russia.

1918

18 February Russians evacuate Armenia as Turks close to within 8 miles of Trebizond.

As you can see the situation for the Turks on the Eastern Front is characterized by a series of defeats against the Russians. It is precisely during this period that the muslims of the region suffer the greatest loss of life.

Also you will note that according to this source deporations and massacres against Armenians start months after the Russian invasion, not before.

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Chieftain

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 19:34

Originally posted by bg_turk

You are right that Armenians alone would never have been able to commit autrocities of this scale against the turks, but you conveniently forget the fact that they were not alone. They were aided by their Russian allies. Russia had 12 million personel who served in the Great War**, a portion of which was deployed on the Eastern Front within the Ottoman Empire.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Russians were aided by Armenians who survived the Turkish exile, rather than "the Armenian state sought the help of Russia", when the Armenian state didn't exist in 1917? And during 1917, all Russian troops went home to fight the Revolution, so how does this constitute as a genocide by Armenians against Turks? On top of this, it is a proven fact that by the time 1918 started, most of the Ottoman Armenian population had been sent into exile. Also, I have never once heard the Turkish government accuse Russia or Armenia for genocide...it looks to me this is more like a cover to take attention off what really happened. Your argument has little to no validity, and the reasoning behind it is absurd

Your sources don't help, either. Who wrote the content on russianwarrior.com, and how is that evidence that Armenians slaughtered Turks? Even if what it says about the Russian invasion is true, how does it prove that Ottoman Armenians collaborated with Russians before 1915? And your second link had nothing to do with Armenia at all. Your 3rd source didn't work for me, all it says is "We're sorry. You do not have access to JSTOR from your current location."

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bg_turk

(*)http://www.jstor.org/journals/01979183.html

Sultan

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 19:36

Originally posted by mamikon

but did you see how in many places it was written "Armenians massacred by Turks", "Armenians again massacred by Turks", "Turks massacre Armenian populations" "Turks massacre Christians"

It is a Russian source, of course it refers to Armenian losses as massacres, whereas when it comes to the Turks, they are simply "evacuating"

and how do these sites pose a credible source?

Which sites? The Russian ones? The Russians were your allies, if you dont accept their evidence as credible, then I do not know what you will.

http://www.jstor.org/view/01979183/di009794/00p0244f/2?frame =noframe&userID=a3019f08

nice try, thats a book review of McCarthy's book, and we all know what he wrote...

So? Are you by any chance claiming that McCarthy fabricated all the evidence that he presented in the books and that all of the reviewers in International Migration Review* have been fooled?

http://www.jstor.org/view/00028762/di981923/98p1040p/0

http://www.jstor.org/view/01979183/di009794/00p0244f/0

http://www.jstor.org/view/00207438/ap010095/01a00280/0

Edited by bg_turk

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Chieftain

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 19:43

Originally posted by bg_turk

It is a Russian source, of course it refers to Armenian losses as massacres, whereas when it comes to the Turks, they are simply "evacuating"

Turkish losses were due to war on the eastern front, while the bulk of Armenian losses were due to deportation measures carried out by the Ottoman government. I don't even have to mention the difference between the two.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Which sites? The Russian ones? The Russians were your allies, if you dont accept their evidence as credible, then I do not know what you will.

So just because Russia is allied to Armenia, and a random Russian guy wrote the site, I'm supposed to believe everything on it, when they do not even cite their sources? What kind of reasoning is this? Not much better than the one in your claims.

Originally posted by bg_turk

So? Are you by any chance claiming that McCarthy fabricated all the evidence that he presented in the books and that all of the reviewers in International Migration Review* have been fooled?

If you keep having to use the same single source for every point you make, how are you going to compare that to the tons of historians who have concluded that there was a genocide against Armenians, and not against Turks?

Edited by ArmenianSurvival

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mamikon

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 19:45

'It is a Russian source, of course it refers to Armenian losses as massacres, whereas when it comes to the Turks, they are simply "evacuating"

"

Does the site say Armenian killed Turks? no, no it doesnt...

"Which sites? The Russian ones? The Russians were your allies, if you dont accept their evidence as credible, then I do not know what you will"

I dont care if the site is Armenian, Russian, Chinese, Turkish, US, British, French etc...if it is written by "some person" I would not use it as a source

"So? Are you by any chance claiming that McCarthy fabricated all the evidence that he presented in the books and that all of the reviewers in International Migration Review* have been fooled?"

fooled? what does this have to do with being fooled, He wrote a book..they reviewed it..nothing more.

I dont think people who are not enrolled in a school can read the site bg_Turk, I think that the site only lets those affiliated with schools/colleges and their libraries to use the site.

Edited by mamikon

bg_turk

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Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 19:49

Originally posted by mamikon

"So? Are you by any chance claiming that McCarthy fabricated all the evidence that he presented in the books and that all of the reviewers in International Migration Review* have been fooled?"

I dont think people who are not enrolled in a school can read the site bg_Turk, I think that the site only lets those affiliated with schools/colleges and their libraries to use the site.

Sorry for that. I will upload them for you.