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December 26th: End of the Soviet Union

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Nagyfejedelem View Drop Down
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  Quote Nagyfejedelem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: December 26th: End of the Soviet Union
    Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 11:02
In my oppinion the Fascist ideology was anti-Capitalist, not the regime.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 13:08
Only in discourse: they were competing fopr support against Socialists, so they needed to pretend they were also somehow socialists. Maybe a few of them believed that, but most didn't. And, as you say, their praxis was only very vaguely "socialist" but very clearly capitalist. 

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 13:58
If Nazists werent socialists why did they have socialist program. If i remember it was described by the short sentece: Ein Fuhrer, Ein Reich, Ein Volkswagen!
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 18:32
many organizations of the NSDAP were highly socialist in nature, especially the RAD (Reichsarbeitsdienst).
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 18:51

Originally posted by Temujin

many organizations of the NSDAP were highly socialist in nature, especially the RAD (Reichsarbeitsdienst).

 

THe RAD was the Nazi's substitute of the traditional German Trade Unions, after they had been broken up, banned, their leaders imprisoned or murdered. It basicaly existed to provide the Nazi government with unpaid labour for their war preparations or indeed during the war. To call the RAD "socialist" is  surely a joke.



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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 19:02

Originally posted by Mosquito

If Nazists werent socialists why did they have socialist program. If i remember it was described by the short sentece: Ein Fuhrer, Ein Reich, Ein Volkswagen!

 

If Nazists were Socialists, in the traditional meaning of the term, why were they supported by most of Germany's big corporations and industrialists, as early as the mid-twenties. The "Anti-Bolshevik League"of the German industry had formed after WW1, and its membership reads like the "Who's Who" of German economy. As the NSDAP became the strongest right-wing movement in Germany, German industry concentrated their financial support here. I'm sure, the Krupps, the IG Farben etc wouldn't have financed the Nazis if they had anything to fear from them.

In the end they profitted all highly from Hitler's war, as did numerous foreign companies. There has always been the rumour, that Henry Ford, a well known Anti-Semite supported the Nazis during their rise to power.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 20:28

Nazis needed the capitalists for the war preparations, it was a alliance of necessity, just liekt eh political alliances with countries that were not aryan. and why is the RAD not socialist? is voluntary free labour capitalist? and i fail to see how the RAD was a substitute for trade unions....

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 05:05

Credit? socialist society? I say "Kill the reds!". All the reds and with no mercy! Good Red is a dead one. Kill their mothers, wifes and children!

Funny that these 'people' then shed alligator tears for people who died in Stalin's labour camps. Reading such comments, and considering that this is what Bolsheviks' 'political opponents' think and indeed, do, makes me sympathise even with such a monster as Stalin. Since violence is the only language they understand, let the bastards have it. 

Not really Maju. Im far from being ultranationalist. I would rather say that we Poles know the Reds better than anyone else so we got no "romantic viev" on those massmurderers.

Yes, you know the Reds very well, and have very good reasons to hate them. They gave Polish women rights, made abortion legal, saved the Jews from extermination, prevented you from being German slaves and kissing Nazi ass. Unforgiveable...

Socialism and Communism was a system which was introduced in Poland in 1945 by force with the bloody hands of NKVD and the Red Army, 25 years after we have kicked out of their red arses the ideas of world wide revolution (polish-soviet war 1920).

In 1920, you have attacked the Soviets 'to kill all the Reds', together with all the hyenas and vultures of the world, and got chased back to your cave. Quite imaginative to call this state of affairs 'kicking their asses'. Too bad you (i.e. Fascists) got your asses kicked and lost Poland in 1945.

The list of the crimes commited by the Reds has almost no end, the number of their victims untill today is unknow (all we know is that it were many millions).

Crimes commited by capitalists, liberals, conservatives are far numerous and worse than crimes commited by socialists, but they are never attributed to those ideologies and systems by the anti-communists. In some cases they are attributed to 'dictators, evil individuals', in others racists mass murderers like Churchill are glorified as heroes and displayed as avatars.

I dont know anything about the episode in Churchill's life when he ordered to murder Kurd people. I have serious doubts if he did it. But if my avatar really hurts your feelings and if you really insist im ready to change it.

Churchill on gassing the Kurds: 'I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes.' Don't change your avatar, it suits you well.

Dont forget that Hitler was a socialist too. He had great ideals. He didnt want even a single german to live in poverty. He wanted to give every german job, good social conditions and Volkswagen (the difference between him and Mussolini was that in Italy it would have been Fiat). Hitler build highways and really improved living conditions of the Germans.

Yes, Hitler was a socialist because he wanted Germans to have a higher standard of living. Henry Ford was a socialist as well, because he wanted everyone to drive a Ford car... Hitler' party is called Socialist, so they must be Socialist! We all know Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is democratic, because that's what they call themselves! 

Some slaves kiss the arses of their masters, others not.

I wholeheartedly agree. Some slaves are so extremely sorry that the Soviets have overthrown their masters that they are still whining 60 years later.

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  Quote Nagyfejedelem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 05:58

Don't forget that Hitler and Mussolini started their career as Socialists. Well, a few years later capitalists supported them against the true Socialists, they used the state supervision and planned economy in public finances. (The only opposite: Hitlers plan was called Four Year Plan, plans of Stalin were Five Year Plans.LOL)



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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 07:13

Don't forget that Hitler and Mussolini started their career as Socialists.

Hitler was NEVER a Socialist. Mussolini was, at some point, but he switched sides.

Well, a few years later capitalists supported them against the true Socialists, they used the state supervision and planned economy in public finances. (The only opposite: Hitlers plan was called Four Year Plan, plans of Stalin were Five Year Plans.LOL)

After the great depression, EVERYBODY adopted the aspects of Soviet economics, such as state supervision and planning, since they saw that the USSR was not affected by the Great Depression. Turkey had 5 year plans too, were they Socialists as well?

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 11:35
Well Beylerbeyi, im not astonished by your posts. You are the most affected by the red propaganda man iv ever met on this forum. In my opinion the Reds lost their right to live after all the crimes they commited and all millions of people they have murdered. Actually violence was the only thing the bolsheviks understood and everything what they were doing was being done with violence. I wont discuss with you the Polish - Soviet war issues because for you my country and my nation always will be agressors. As for being chased back to our "cave" i dont agree with you because we have dictated the peace treaty of Riga and the Soviets signed it. We have defeated and detroyed all their armies and they had nothing to stop us from continuing offensive on all the fronts. Whats more, for the sake of future relationships between the neighbours we took less land than the Soviets offered us to take. Because of us not only Poland but also Baltic countries became independent states. The only idea which we gave up during peace negotiotions was creation of independent Ukrainian state. As for "saving Jews" i would only add that Soviets also murdered their share of the Jews. Red army was even commiting rapes on the Jewish women which they liberated from concentration camps. When general Anders was evacuating Polish troops and civilians to british controled middle east a lot of Jews together with him  escaped from Soviet Union. In fact every jew who wanted was allowed to stay in Palestine and first goverments of Israel were made by polish citisens of jewish nationality. For me the Reds were and are the enemies of human kind, as well as the Nazists. They both are worth one each other.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 11:39
And btw Beylerbeyi, why dont you ask our Hungarian friends on this forum, how much they appreciate red rules in their country. Especially in 1956.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 12:01
Mosquito clearly has the upper hand in this discussion. To summ up everything said so far, in a mild tone so as not to enrage our leftist commrades (): It would have been much better for mankind it the bolsheviks had lost the civil war of 1917-1922.
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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 12:14
Ha, if the whites have won Easten europe will be probably in much wors condition.It was the "evil' communists who greatly increased the live condition here.Look what russia was before the revolution and look it in the 60-70s.The same thing whit bulgaria.
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 12:31

Before the war Bulgaria had a living standard, roughly the same as Greece's. They endured Nazi devastations, a bloody civil war and after just 20 years of democracy were light years ahead of us. After 1945 East and West Germany had an equal start, same goes for North and South Korea. Can you even dare to compare the East and West, North and South? Why am I wasting my time telling you this? Everyone knows that democratic countries are more prosperous than totalitaric.

Communism is much closer to Nazism, than it is to democracy. And it's not surprising, Nazism derives from Communism. NO LENIN - NO HITLER, remember that.



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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 12:57

The most prosperos state in 30s,40s and 50 was the Soviet Union.In 60s and 70 Bulgarian living standart was better than Greece's.West Germany resived a great finacial help grom the west so that she recover quicly and to be used as a border with the communists

              usa         germany         uk         &nbs p; france          soviets      japan

1912     100         100                 100               100              100          100

1920    122          59                   92                 70                 12              176

1926    156      ;      90                78                  129               100         &nb sp; 264

1935    140             116               107                106               533          457

1936    171      127                    119              116                 693         &nb sp; 483

1937    185         &nb sp; 138               128               123                772         

138       143           149          117                114          857                 552      

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 12:58

This is the production idecses (1912=100)

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 13:01

They gave Polish women rights

This is one of many false statements you made in your post Beylerbeyi. But thisone is the easiest to check without the need to start separate discussion. Polish women recived full rights in 1918 - in the nazist white corrupt and however else you want to call it - Poland.

And i agree with our friend Bulgarian. Gentlemen dont discuss the facts.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 13:03
Nazism doesn't derive from Communism: there's no genealogical track that you can follow from one to the other: no communist that I know ever became fascist, at least in that time and the only known case of a social-democrat (this is not communism!) evolving into fascist is that of Mussolini. The link leninism-fascism is as forced as anarchism-neoconservatism. There's no direct connection, no matter what the fascists, as the democrats copied from the achievements and systems of the USSR, which were then lokked upon with admiration and respect, even by the righ-wingers.

Let's not mix things. Also Subotai has quite a bit of reason: the economic success of the Soviet Union allowed for a great increase in standards of life for most people under Soviet or Soviet-like rule. Only later, in the late 20th century, they felt behind.

Also, it is doubtful that, without the Soviet referential "threat", Western countries would have ever developed such advanced welfare policies. Only the threat of revolution and "sovietization" forced them to do that.

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 13:05

Huh cant edit my post!

The last year is 1938 not 138 and the word grom is actualy from

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