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Artaxiad
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Topic: More- should Turkey join the EU??? Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:32 |
Austria is complaining, but Greece isn't??
Edited by Artaxiad
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:38 |
Austria needs to realize the Habsburg empire is no more. They eventually gave way though.
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Guests
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Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:44 |
Well, Greece is a little slow on complaints...
The answer though should be no... at least not at this moment. They have a lot of ground to cover, especially in human rights and to get into the european way of thinking, something very difficult... unforturnately, I guess the "midnight express" movie is what everybody is thinking of.
I didn't watch the news today... so, where are things right now?
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Maju
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Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:46 |
Originally posted by Artaxiad
Austria is complaining, but Greece isn't?? |
Austria is a very conservative Catholic country. Greece hopes that EU
integration of Turkey will lower the tensions between the two nations
and probably also that will create a nearby market for Greek products.
We'll see how is it when Turkey finally is in.
The curious thing is that Cyprus can perfectly veto Turkey and would
have its good reasons to do that but is acting in a very moderate way.
The other curious thing is that most people in most EU countries is
rather against Turk entrance, while their governments are rather
favoring it.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maju
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Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:49 |
Originally posted by Nefertari
Well, Greece is a little slow on complaints...
The answer though should be no... at least not at this moment. They
have a lot of ground to cover, especially in human rights and to get
into the european way of thinking, something very difficult...
unforturnately, I guess the "midnight express" movie is what
everybody is thinking of.
I didn't watch the news today... so, where are things right now?
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Carla del Ponte congratulated Croats for cooperating now with the Le
Hague tribunal and that has probably loosen Austria resistences
(Austria favors Croatia but is negative towards Turkey). They had
agreed to some rephrasing of the negotiating mandate and now Turkey is
studying it.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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strategos
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Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 18:42 |
Analysis: EU views on Turkish bid |
By Jan Repa BBC Europe analyst |
Istanbul: Big reforms are required for Turkey to join the EU | Most EU countries officially welcome the prospect of Turkish membership: albeit at least a decade from now and subject to consistent evidence of Turkey's commitment to democratic values.
In contrast, public opinion in most EU countries appears, with varying degrees of intensity, to oppose Turkish membership.
Reasons cited for opposition include: Turkey's large population (70 million and rising fast); its relative poverty and doubts about its cultural compatibility with Europe. The French, Germans and Austrians seem especially unhappy with the idea.
Here is a breakdown of attitudes in some of the EU member states:
GERMANY: Opinion polls say up to three-quarters of the population oppose Turkish membership. Of the two largest political parties, the Social Democrats (SPD) say they want a "modern Turkey in the EU"; the Christian Democrats (CDU) oppose membership - proposing instead a "privileged partnership". Angela Merkel - the CDU candidate for chancellor - has appealed to EU leaders not to "encourage" Turkey.
FRANCE: Has the largest percentage of Muslims (7%) in the EU. Officially backs Turkey's membership bid. But Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin says Turkey must first recognise Cyprus. However, Nicolas Sarkozy - leader of the ruling UMP party and likely future presidential candidate - is opposed. Only 20% of public opinion says Yes to Turkey joining. A leading political pundit, Guillaume Parmentier, says: "The Turkish elite has been European for centuries; but the vast democratic expansion of Turkey involves Anatolian peasants, who are not European by culture, tradition or habit". The French have been promised a referendum after the conclusion of negotiations.
AUSTRIA: Opinion polls show 75% of 15-24 year-olds opposed to Turkish membership; rising to 82% among people over 55. This is the highest No rating in the EU.
NETHERLANDS: Has the EU's second largest Muslim population in terms of percentage (6%) after France - and is struggling to cope with the issues of religion, immigration and integration - particularly after the murder of film-maker Theo van Gogh. Remains strongly divided over Turkey.
BRITAIN: An enthusiastic supporter of Turkish membership. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says Turkey in the EU would become "a beacon of democracy and modernity"; and a Muslim country providing "a shining example across the whole of its neighbouring region" - ie the Arab world. Turkish membership would disprove the "clash of civilisations" theory.
ITALY: Another strong supporter of Turkish membership. The government stresses historical links between Italy and the "Near East"; the need to "anchor" Turkey in the West; and the commercial opportunities offered by the Turkish market. Public opinion, while not particularly hostile, appears less enthusiastic - actual support for Turkish membership standing at below 40%.
POLAND: The largest of the 10 "new" EU members, who joined in May 2004 - with more than half of their combined population. 54% of the public support Turkish membership. Officials say Turkey would strengthen pro-American attitudes within the EU and consolidate Western influence on the approaches to the Middle East and the Caucasus. Poles also cite a history of close bilateral relations going back several hundred years.
SPAIN: A poll showed 33% opposing Turkish membership, but 42% in favour - as is the government. Back in June, following the French and Dutch rejection of the EU draft constitution, Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos suggested postponing the Turkish accession talks until a more advantageous time.
GREECE: was under Ottoman occupation for more than 400 years. Some Greeks still regard Istanbul as a "Greek" city. Another country where politicians and public opinion diverge. Opinion polls suggest only 25% of Greeks believe Turkey has a place in the European Union. The government, meanwhile, is keen to resolve bilateral tensions through Turkish integration. But it says the fate of Turkey's EU application depends, primarily, on the Turks themselves - especially where recognition of Cyprus in concerned. .
HUNGARY: was under Ottoman occupation for 150 years, in the 16th and 17th centuries. But there is little anti-Turkish feeling - around half the population supporting Turkish membership. However, like Austria, Hungary is also pressing the case of neighbouring Croatia: which, according to Foreign Minister Ferenc Somogyi, is "spectacularly further ahead" than Turkey on most accession criteria.
DENMARK: Strong public resistance to Turkish membership. Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen - until recently supportive - has been heard talking of "special partnerships" as well.
SWEDEN: Strong popular resistance. However, the government sees Turkish membership in terms of "supporting Turkey's reform process and increasing contacts with Turkish society" - as well as Swedish business opportunities.
What the people think of Turkey- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4296610.stm |
Edited by strategos
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http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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Jalisco Lancer
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Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 19:17 |
Thanks for the info.
Really complete post.
Regards
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strategos
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Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 22:20 |
Originally posted by Jalisco Lancer
Thanks for the info. Really complete post. Regards |
Uh thanks.. I pray this is not an inside insult to me...
Anyways, I wished to present the view of the actual people inside the E.U., and not just their governments views.
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http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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Alkiviades
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 07:14 |
The majority of the people say "NO" while the majority of the governments are adamantly in favor of Turkey's admission... Shows only that the governments are not listening to their voters but to the European businesses (who want to make inroads into the Turkish mega-market) and the US government who wants to repay the devotion and decitation of NATO-member Turkey by putting the pressure on the Europeans to accept Turkey in our closed club.
May I suggest USA takes Turkey in as a nominal State, and the EU businesses that want a share of the Turkish pie, immigrate and stay there?
Actually, I'd love to see a public referendum abou the Turkey admission. My take is that it the "NO" vote would be quite decisive...
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Komnenos
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 12:54 |
Originally posted by Alkiviades
The majority of the people say "NO" while the majority of the governments are adamantly in favor of Turkey's admission...Actually, I'd love to see a public referendum abou the Turkey admission. My take is that it the "NO" vote would be quite decisive... |
I have mentioned this before when we discussed the French and Dutch vote on the EU constitution, and I can only say it again, I'm glad the German constitution does not allow any referenda.
You're probably right in predicting that, for example, the German electorate would come out in a majority against Turkey's entry, if we had a referendum, but thank god, nobody's gonna ask them.
Like in many other referenda, it would not be decided by voting on the actual question in hand, by on voting on a variety of unconnnected issues.
I don't think the German people would familiarise themself with all the complex political, social and economic implications of Turkeys entry, but vote according much they like their Turkish neighbours or workmates, or how much the recent Anti-Islamic propaganda has sunk in and they fear Muslim terrorism, and similar irrational reasons.
Referenda are fine, but only if the voters are forced to demonstrate that actually know what they are voting on. The completion of a 200 word essay on the pro and contras of Turkey's entry should be the minimum qualification for being allowed to vote on the issue.
As it isn't, the results of the opinion polls above, are not much more than a reflection of Anti-Islam sentiment in Europe.
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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 13:37 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Originally posted by Alkiviades
The majority of the people say "NO" while the majority of the governments are adamantly in favor of Turkey's admission...Actually, I'd love to see a public referendum abou the Turkey admission. My take is that it the "NO" vote would be quite decisive...
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I have mentioned this before when we discussed the French and Dutch vote on the EU constitution, and I can only say it again, I'm glad the German constitution does not allow any referenda. You're probably right in predicting that, for example, the German electorate would come out in a majority against Turkey's entry, if we had a referendum, but thank god, nobody's gonna ask them. Like in many other referenda, it would not be decided by voting on the actual question in hand, by on voting on a variety of unconnnected issues. I don't think the German people would familiarise themself with all the complex political, social and economic implications of Turkeys entry, but vote according much they like their Turkish neighbours or workmates, or how much the recent Anti-Islamic propaganda has sunk in and they fear Muslim terrorism, and similar irrational reasons. Referenda are fine, but only if the voters are forced to demonstrate that actually know what they are voting on. The completion of a 200 word essay on the pro and contras of Turkey's entry should be the minimum qualification for being allowed to vote on the issue. As it isn't, the results of the opinion polls above, are not much more than a reflection of Anti-Islam sentiment in Europe. |
So, as this can be read, democracy in Europe should be the opinion (and interests) of elites rather than the will of the people?
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just Turkish
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 13:51 |
i don't think turkey should join eu,come on!!they r asking for 2 much... it looks as if the country has lost it's dignity,like their begging to get in but what i know is that people r sick of it,how long has it been since they have been playing with turks?!
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hhhhhhmmmmmmm
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Phallanx
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:26 |
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
So, as this can be read, democracy in
Europe should be the opinion (and interests) of elites rather than the
will of the people? |
That is actually what I thought while reading it, but then, wouldn't the use of the term democracy be simply inappropriate ?
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:46 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
So, as this can be read, democracy in Europe should be the opinion (and interests) of elites rather than the will of the people?
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That is actually what I thought while reading it, but then, wouldn't the use of the term democracy be simply inappropriate ?
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It is a point of discussion. Komnenos states that the people will make judgements on more emotional issues ( feelings about neighbors/workmates). However, one person/one vote means what it implies. The elite graduates of Ecoles Superieurs and the EUROcrats most likely do not have Moslem neighbors. And given the recent actions of Moslem radicals on four continents, people can be excused for having concerns about terrorism, irrational or not.
Edited by pikeshot1600
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baracuda
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:47 |
Originally posted by just Turkish
i don't thinkturkey should join eu,come on!!they r asking for 2 much...it looks as if the country has lost it's dignity,like their begging to get in but what i know is that people r sick of it,how long has it been since they have been playing with turks?! |
Someone had a good comment on it in one of the turkish newspapers site, he said its like being given a ticket to a sinking ship, then corrected it to buying it.. then said no no.. its like buying the ticket over its price from the black market to a sinking ship.. sounds better in turkish anyway.. and a little note, there is 10 years minimum to join the EU, a period in which we'll probably be put on hold, or thrown out of a million and invited again, and talked over another billion times..and asked to say sorry for invading anatolia, and coming to earth...and in these 10 years if this nagging EU woman is worth the trouble and the nag, we'll tie the knot.. if not.. then adios.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:02 |
Originally posted by strategos
Analysis: EU views on Turkish bid |
By Jan Repa BBC Europe analyst |
Istanbul: Big reforms are required for Turkey to join the EU | POLAND: The largest of the 10 "new" EU members, who joined in May 2004 - with more than half of their combined population. 54% of the public support Turkish membership. Officials say Turkey would strengthen pro-American attitudes within the EU and consolidate Western influence on the approaches to the Middle East and the Caucasus. Poles also cite a history of close bilateral relations going back several hundred years.
Yes...who was the leader of that...Sobieski or something...very close relations. Point-blank in fact.
Actually personally I'm for Turkey coming in. About the only thing I've ever agreed with the Blair government on.
Even if the name has to be changed to 'Eurasian Union'.
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Seko
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:20 |
The first step has been overcome. Let's cheer for more productive discussions with the eventuall harmony between Europe and Turkey. From my perspective this acceptance to start negotiations is a pretty big deal. For a few others it may just as well be a big bummer. On one hand its, "Turkey she will never step up to European ideals." But when there is a time to do so like now, its more like 'on second thought you have that xyz problem, you don't recognize abc, and you talk funny and your moslem and your Turks (runs out of excuses)...
The more I think about the EU's puppet show with Turkey the more I believe most europeans will never exhaust themselves from making difficulties for her. Same goes for the MHP types from Turkey. There are lots of options on the table. Turkey needs to look at them all and still have the resolve to cope with European sensitivities and prejudicism.
Pikeshot, the whole notion of a referandum sounds fishy. If it wasn't done before for previous countries then why do it know?
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:24 |
Originally posted by Seko
The first step has been overcome. Let's cheer for more productive discussions with the eventuall harmony between Europe and Turkey. From my perspective this acceptance to start negotiations is a pretty big deal. For a few others it may just as well be a big bummer. On one hand its, "Turkey she will never step up to European ideals." But when there is a time to do so like now, its more like 'on second thought you have that xyz problem, you don't recognize abc, and you talk funny and your moslem and your Turks (runs out of excuses)...
The more I think about the EU's puppet show with Turkey the more I believe most europeans will never exhaust themselves from making difficulties for her. Same goes for the MHP types from Turkey. There are lots of options on the table. Turkey needs to look at them all and still have the resolve to cope with European sensitivities and prejudicism.
Pikeshot, the whole notion of a referandum sounds fishy. If it wasn't done before for previous countries then why do it know?
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The Europeans must do it their own way.....I just commented on Komnenos's statement in re the referendum.
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Komnenos
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:42 |
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
So, asthis can be read, democracy in Europe should be the opinion (and interests) of elites rather than the will of the people? |
I'm aware, I dug a hole for myself here.
I can't remember the exact figures, but when after the recent referenda on the EU constitution voters were asked why they voted as they did, it turned out that a large number of them did so, because they either supported their current government or not, and then used the opportunity to say so.The question of the EU wasn't on very many people's minds at all.
I have lived in the UK long enough to have witnessed how a large part of the press, especially the papers under Rupert Murdochs control, have over decades continiously manipulated the public over the question of the UK membership in the EU. It has been an endless anti-European campaign, with one fabricated horror story about Brussels after another, with relentless attacks on Europhile politicians, at home and abroad, and so on. Any referendum in the UK on Europe would nothing but reflect and demonstrate the influence of the conservative mass media, and how far it has succeeded to influence the public's mind.
And that is the reason, Germany disallowed referenda in the constitution that was adopted in 1949. After the experiences of the Weimar Republic,not unsimilar to those recently made in Britain, it was decided that this form of direct democracy is open to too many manipulations, and that there should be various other levels, where the public could form political opinions and act upon, political parties for examples that would sent its representatives into parliaments where more balanced decisions could be made. This system is far from perfect as well, but it has more safety valves built in.
It was exactly this suspicion, that the so-called people's will is not always that was it seems, but rather the product of opinions and interests of an elite that is able to manipulate, that the fathers of the German constitution convinced to disallow referenda, and that wasn't such a bad idea.
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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:45 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
So, as this can be read, democracy in Europe should be the opinion (and interests) of elites rather than the will of the people?
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I'm aware, I dug a hole for myself here. I can't remember the exact figures, but when after the recent referenda on the EU constitution voters were asked why they voted as they did, it turned out that a large number of them did so, because they either supported their current government or not, and then used the opportunity to say so.The question of the EU wasn't on very many people's minds at all. I have lived in the UK long enough to have witnessed how a large part of the press, especially the papers under Rupert Murdochs control, have over decades continiously manipulated the public over the question of the UK membership in the EU. It has been an endless anti-European campaign, with one fabricated horror story about Brussels after another, with relentless attacks on Europhile politicians, at home and abroad, and so on. Any referendum in the UK on Europe would nothing but reflect and demonstrate the influence of the conservative mass media, and how far it has succeeded to influence the public's mind. And that is the reason, Germany disallowed referenda in the constitution that was adopted in 1949. After the experiences of the Weimar Republic,not unsimilar to those recently made in Britain, it was decided that this form of direct democracy is open to too many manipulations, and that there should be various other levels, where the public could form political opinions and act upon, political parties for examples that would sent its representatives into parliaments where more balanced decisions could be made. This system is far from perfect as well, but it has more safety valves built in. It was exactly this suspicion, that the so-called people's will is not always that was it seems, but rather the product of opinions and interests of an elite that is able to manipulate, that the fathers of the German constitution convinced to disallow referenda, and that wasn't such a bad idea. |
Well, don't worry about it. The state of California allows referenda; has them all the time, and nothing can get done out there......Democracy run amok. People get tired of elections.
Some years ago, they voted on whether their insurance premiums should be lower......guess what the outcome was.
Edited by pikeshot1600
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