More- should Turkey join the EU???
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Current Affairs
Forum Discription: Debates on topical, current World politics
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5862
Printed Date: 12-May-2024 at 18:23
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: More- should Turkey join the EU???
Posted By: eaglecap
Subject: More- should Turkey join the EU???
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 23:25
|
Brutality, poverty and religion stand between Turkey and EU
What do you think? Will the influences of the EU bring about change in Turkey? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1804495,00.html - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1804495,00.htm l ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Replies:
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 23:54
There are several diferent problems here:
------------- 
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 04:31
|
Joining the EU is good for Turkey in the long term. I do not comprehend why so many Turkish Forumers shun the idea and instead focus on Central Asia. Turkey joining Europe = uphill and prosperity Turkey joining Central Asian states = backwards and burdensome I have always thought that the Westernization of Turkey was a smart move, and the continued conformity with Western nations can only help Turkey. Increased identification with traditionalist and conservative Islamic groups and nations will hurt Turkish interests in the long run, for it would not play well in the eyes of the United States, and in a world where the Islamic image is already damaged to a great extent. Turkey is not strong enough (in terms of military complex, international support, and human resources) to vie against the United States and Russia in Central Asia, but more than enough to build up on equal grounds with Britain, France, and Germany. The best course of option for Turkey, in my humble opinion, is to structure the country like a Western European nation. If done correctly, Turkey can easily become as prosperious as France and Germany. Turkey must show the world that it is possible to structure a truely democratic, westernized nation based on fundamental Islamic principles. If the world sees Turkey on par with Britain and France, then Turkey will have succeeded. ------------- AAAAAAAAAA "The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.� ~ HG Wells |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 04:46
|
Turkey must show the world that it is possible to structure a truly democratic, westernized nation based on fundamental Islamic principles.
I disagree. I think Turkey should be %100 secular, not "democratic Islamic" or "moderate Islamic". What is those "Islamic principles" anyway? |
Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 04:55
|
sure. I may not have phrased my words concisely. 100% secular is even better. ------------- AAAAAAAAAA "The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.� ~ HG Wells |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 12:32
|
I also want Turkey to join EU. It would be better for Turkey as a country and for Kurds too. We need our minority rights! ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 13:09
^ You need what? are you even from Turkiye? If you are a tourist you
are welcome.Kurds have their rights in Turkiye.speak on behalf of
whatever your nationality is dear cent!  I agree, Eu will benefit Turkiye in a long run if EU still exists by the time we join but we have to face some facts here.Turkiye is unwanted in there.Also we have to accept that culturely we are not European.Some Balkanic mixture in west although I can not say Balkans are European either.forming a new Asian or middle eastern union doesn't mean we will adopt Eastern backward culture.On the contrary we have a unique culture.We showed east and west can do together. We can not ignore east anymore, they have potential too if it is used right.We did without EU so far and it wasn't perfect I admit but things are changing, economy is getting better and many laws have changed.We're not %100 done yet we should not stop. ------------- "When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?" |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 13:10
|
Austria does not agree with Turkish EU membership. What is the view of Greece on this topic?
I would like to see Turkey prosper but I do not know if EU membership is good for Turkey and Europe. I think Austria's solution might be better than nothing at all and given time things could change. Give them privileged partner status instead of membership but keep things open for the future. Like in America, I tend to think the elite in Europe want this because of the cheap labor that will flood into Europe. Europe's population is on the decline and they need workers. I cannot blame the poor of Turkey for wanting a better opportunity in life but Europeans should protect their borders, lanugae and culture by limiting immigration but that is for another thread. EU's turkey row 'threatens relations with Islam' 01/10/2005 - 10:13:41 The Wests relations with Islam will be seriously damaged if Turkeys application to join the European Union is blocked, former EU external affairs commissioner Lord Patten warned today. The Wests relations with Islam will be seriously damaged if Turkeys application to join the European Union is blocked, former EU external affairs commissioner Lord Patten warned today. Formal accession talks with the Turkish government are due to open on Thursday, but the process has been thrown into disarray after Austria said that it should not be granted full membership. The Austrians instead suggested that it should be awarded the status of privileged partner. The move prompted a furious response from Ankara, where the Turkish government warned that it would walk out of the talks if all that was on offer was second class membership. EU foreign ministers are due to meet in emergency session tomorrow to try to resolve the crisis. Lord Patten described the Austrians behaviour as lamentable. He said that if the negotiations did break down, it would have a serious impact both within the EU and on the world beyond. The impact of the Wests relationship with Islam if we turn down Turkeys accession, even after Turkey has carried through reforms, mostly on the visceral grounds that we are the relics of Christian civilisation and theyre Islamic - and thats how it would play in the Islamic world then that would have very bad implications, he told BBC Radio 4s Today programme. You hear so much rhetoric about Europe playing a significant role in the world. What the hell signal do we send to the rest of the world if we cant accept Turkish accession to the European Union? To define Europe today as though it were an introverted, cohesive, medieval Christian community is, I think, terrible, and it sends not only awful messages outside, but it actually sends some pretty dubious messages to the 12 million or more Muslims who live within the European Union. While Britain has been a strong supporter of Turkish accession, Lord Patten acknowledged that elsewhere in the EU there was growing popular opposition to the idea. However he said that it was up to EU leaders to face down their critics. I dont doubt at all that people are going to have to confront xenophobia in some European countries if we are going to win this argument. Of course they are. But it is a time, in my judgment, for a bit of leadership, he said. http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=157692866&p=y5769357z - http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=157692866&p=y576 9357z ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 13:10
|
erci, yeah yeah, stop beutifying the Kurdish question. Everybody knows how it is in Turkey... ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 13:27
^  ---------- eaglecap partner status rather than full membership will only benefit EU.We already have some kind of agreement close to that status right now, what more can we gain? right now nothing! and it is already stated by Turkiye we will not accept anything but full membership.(We're talking about if Turkiye has done everything EU ask for.This is the condition of the full membership.When Turkey's fulfiled all the requirements of union if it still gets the some kind of status rather than full membership like any other candidate this will be so unfair, it's unacceptable.) ------------- "When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?" |
Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 18:09
|
Right now, I consider Turkey to be a fourth tier country. It is on its way to becoming a thrid tier country. Joining the EU may help facilitate that process. Being a partner instead of full member is not satisfactory, but nevertheless a first step. In my humble opinion, the following is how I rank countries. Note: this is my personal overall evaluation and not necesarily adopted by everyone. Personally I rank size, potential, and resources above average standard of living (but 2nd and 3rd can be flipped depending on your own criteria). 1st Tier: United States 2nd Tier: Russia, China, India, Brazil 3rd Tier: Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Australia, Argentina, etc 4th Tier: Italy, Spain, Turkey, Ukraine, Mexico, Iran, Pakistan, etc ------------- AAAAAAAAAA "The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.� ~ HG Wells |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 18:19
|
This is an interesting way of evaluation! Where does Belgium stand in it? Btw, that was your 666th post ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 19:14
Whats "Nth tier"? Why is Argentine or Australia in the 3rd rank and Italy and Spain in the 4th? 
-------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 19:22
|
Canada should be in 4th maybe 5th, since size doesn't matter
------------- "When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?" |
Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 22:34
|
I Belgium is in the ............................................8th Tier ------------- AAAAAAAAAA "The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.� ~ HG Wells |
CanadaPosted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 22:57
|
so how good is the EU union?
------------- 
|
Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 23:20
That is very interesting Poirot. How did you get Japan lower to Brazil! or Spain lower to Argentina? or Germany lower to Russia! I would love to know your criterias for that evaluation Without any doubts, Turkey is viewed as a threat to the carefully arranged status of the EU. My expectation, Turkey's application will not be rejected (just out of diplomacy) but will be delayed as typical. Interesting though, how long Turkey will stand its grounds to EU tough demands especially recognizing Cyprus? ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 23:57
|
My own unique evaluation. Again, the 2nd and 3rd tier can be flipped, depending on your own criteria. I tend to rank larger countries with more resources higher than smaller countries that may be more powerful economically. Hence, Brazil over Japan. If Japan gets into a war, yen would simply evaporate. Brazil is more self-sufficient. And Russia over Germany is a tough choice, but Russia gets the nod because it has more resources and more potential, despite a less prosperous economy. ------------- AAAAAAAAAA "The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.� ~ HG Wells |
Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 00:49
|
That is indeed very interesting. Never thought of ranking countries according to potentials and resources. muy interesante. ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 01:18
So-so. It's godd that you can forget about political borders most of the time, what is specially interesting if you belong to a nation divided between two EU countries like myself. But, as now everything seems to be only about free market and nothing else, it's losing part of its appeal (at least for me). The process of European unification has got diluted in the proccess of European expansion, what is ot good either. I'd like to belong to a Union that could talk to US and other giants on one-to-one terms, instead political union is not going farther but has got stopped. I think Britain (and maybe others) should get out of EU: it's sabotaging Europeism from inside. I also think that any new member should have clear Europeist intentions. In the end, I'd like a more political and less just free-trade Union. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Jhangora
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 01:43
|
I think Turkey would benefit economically by joining the EU.Most Turks want to join the EU.The question should be "R the european nations willing to include Turkey in the EU". -------------  Jai Badri Vishal
|
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 03:03
|
by Europeist intentions you mean a Union as strong as the US or even stronger? and as i see it there are some members are pro US more than the EU itself. anyway about Turkey, i think Turkey is starting to get bored of EU and started making some relation improvement with the eastern regions, the below picture of the Turkish and Emirates officials signing an investment agreements.
-------------
|
Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 12:37
Very nice news. Turkey should improve its relations with every countries of the world. But we have neglected our relations with Islamic world. The relations should be much better. Turkey should stay away from the EU. But the economical relations between the two parts should remain the same. We have focused too much with EU. EU is a declining power and in the future this trend will continue. They will never compete with the rest of the world; Asia-Pasific, Euroasia (Russia, Turkic republics, India and Pakistan) and USA. We will be on loosers side if we eneter into EU. There is a growing opposition against the membership to EU in Turkey and hopefully we will never enter into nonsense union which is alien to our cultures and values..... NO TO EUROPEAN UNION !!!!!!!
|
Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 13:36
|
I disagree. I think Turkey's best route is to enter the EU. Brussels welcome you! Well, at least one person in Brussels welcome you! ------------- AAAAAAAAAA "The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.� ~ HG Wells |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 17:06
I'd plainly kick them out. That's clear in the case of the UK and it may affect other countries such as Sweden, Denmark and Poland. We need a strong European Union, not the EFTA (which is deceased, you know). We need to be able to stand as United Europeans in the world and we need a democratic confederation for that. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 17:34
Thank you very much Poirot. But it is a fact that very big majority of European people do not want Turkey inside EU. We do not have anything to say but respect them. We will got good relations with EU. We will still be in alliances with them such as NATO. You have to see that starting negotiations is nothing. There will be referandum about Turkey's entrence let us say 20 years later when negotiations end. Then we will be refused anyway. In that case I cannot even imagine what will be the outcome of this. The biggest possibility is a war between Cyprus and Turkey and Greece since Turkey will give all they wanted to be a member. Europe is not honest, I do not trust them. So this nonsense adventure should end now. We will always keep our secular, democratic state forever. Some idiot Turkish politicians and journalists warn Europe that if Turkey cannot enter into EU radical Islam will gain too much strenght. No this is not true. We have a deep rooted strong state and enough public support to preserve it in line with Ataturk's ideals and for the best benefits of people of Turkey. |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 19:28
|
Poirot thanks mate.We all know there are people who support
Turkey in Europe.but they are minority you know it, we know it. One must be blind to see EU is the only solution.It's not.There are countries which not EU members, even in Europe and they do alright without it.What we will miss that only EU subsidies yet we did not recieve 1 cent so far. What you and even some Turks fail to see is that EU is a cultural and economical union found on Christian roots.(I don't mean a christian club)now culturely I don't accept myself as European nor I'm christian.that means I'm forcing myself where I don't belong, where I have no place.Our relations with Europe should have limits.Our dance was over some centuries ago and pushing it will make it worse.You can not start a Mercedes-Benz with Diesel oil.It will start for sure but it won't work right.I have no problem With European countries and I respect their desicion cos they have every right to defend their union. ------------- "When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?" |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 20:51
|
I appreciate the sensible opinions that you all have expressed recently. Poirot, nice to hear of your courteous stance. Alp Arslan and Erci you have presented your views from the heart. You have my respect for that. As far as a war with Greece or Cyprus, I find that hard to imagine. Both countries have sensitive issues with eachother, but I do believe that without either one instigating any territorial aggression towards the other that those issues would be either left unresolved or only argued over. Whether Turkey is even accepted to the table (at this rate the Austrians won't accept it) or not is still tenuous. ------------- |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 21:43
|
I have respect for Austria, they
are the only ones who see the truth.They have more guts than those
other hypocrite EU countires hiding behind Austria to shout it out.Most
of them relieved after Austria's unwillingless
------------- "When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?" |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 21:51
|
There must be more to this "no to Turkey" among EU members than human rights. Dilution of influence in Europe of other Euro states; potential immigration from a Moslem country. Perhaps some economic issues, who knows? At any rate, the strategic implications for Europe are important. The snubbing of Turkey may start the unraveling of NATO. If so, the EU, with the lack of political will it has demonstrated, and the substantial disarming of it's constituent armed forces (both in the last decade), further isolates itself from North America as ally and strategic partner. Greco-Turkish and Balkan problems would be even more difficult to address. Turkey, certainly a critical ally of the U.S., may well move closer to central Asian and trans Caucasus states for issues of strategic and security interests. Memories are short in modern times. Although Russia is not now an important player in the present politics, and in the security issues of Europe, nothing says that won't change again....a matter of time, perhaps. With a resurgence of Russia, directed west or southwest, NATO might look good to some states again. Turkey has been important to NATO.
|
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 22:05
|
well from Maju's explaination about the current EU union, i would say they aren't doing what they has to do. and dont think Turkey will benifit that much from that union. dont see why they want it so bad, they can be part of World Trad and be friends with Europe without being actully in the Union. so the advantages i noticed from this joining is that Turkey becomming more democratic which is good, but still not that democratic since they are pressuering their big religous community as we disscussed earlier in the thread
-------------
|
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 22:15
As far as I know, one of the condition of full membership is that Citizen of Turkey won't be able to reside or have work permit for 10-15 years within any European country after the acceptance.so we're talking about 25 to 30 years from now(with at least 10 years of negotiations) but until then how many Turkish citizen will want to go to Europe anyway? Economy somewhat will get better and there will be no reason to immigrate to Europe.so, that can't be the reason alone. Who knows what will Turkey do afterwards!Either form a new union or contunie you the road as now.I always felt European Union as a band aid of Europe.not stable, not strong, temporary.They will go their way and we should go our way ------------- "When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?" |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 00:13
|
EU wants Turkey to recognize Cyprus. Does that mean recognizing the southern Greek part of Cyprus, or Cyprus as a whole? |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 04:01
Recognize the legal government of the whole island, which is the Greek-Cypriot one. The Turkish north is not recognized by anyone (except Turkey), as illegal and the product of Turkish invasion. (Now, it would be good if the Turkish members would not start firing away, this is the legal explanation which is accepted by all internalional organiozations). Latest developments: no news, EU is still deadlocked after Austria's stance. Perhaps Austria wants to excange "yes to Turkey" with a "yes to Croatia" by the other members.
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 05:14
That's the rumor (more or less) but Austrian tory government (and I think the population too) is also the one that more strongly opposes Turkey's full membership. They want to offer an open negotiation with diferent final posibilities: full membership or preferential association. This is something that Turkey won't accept, or so they say. I think it's an error to be discussing future expansions when we don't know what to do with the current EU. There's a strong danger of getting stuck. The logical thing should be to solve first the internal lack of cohesion and project and then look outside for new members that fit in the new reviewed frame. I don't think it is good to take this decission on reasonings such as we must demonstrate that there's no clash of civilizations or things like that... the so called "clash of civilizations" is something that the Anglo-Saxon bloc has created by means of keeping the Muslim world subjugated, I don't think that EU is here to put the pretty face that Washington and London don't want to show. And I don't think it is here to solve the internal problems of Turkey either, thought this could be a more reasonable objective provided it fits in the internal agenda of the existing EU, which should be prioritary. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 11:49
|
Finally Austria has caved in and Turkey will now be able to start the long process. Perhaps after Del Ponte announced that Croatia is finally collaborating.
Some analysis on Turkey's dilemmas, concerning EU accession: http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901051010-1112777,00.html?cnn=yes - http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901 051010-1112777,00.html?cnn=yes http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4302468.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4302468.stm
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 12:03
Yeah, that is a good question. Argentina is still recovering from a severe economic depression, plus they do not have any heavy industry. Regards |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 12:11
|
EU Reaches Deal on Talks With Turkey
By ROBERT WIELAARD, Associated Press Writer 37 minutes ago LUXEMBOURG - European Union nations reached a tentative agreement Monday on pursuing full membership talks with Turkey, diplomats said. A spokesman for the Turkish prime minister denied reports that Ankara had agreed to the deal. European Union foreign ministers were to give their official backing to the deal among the 25 member states, the diplomats said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks. No specific details were released about the deal, reached after hours of arduous talks. Turkish media reported that Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul approved the document and was preparing to leave for Luxembourg, but a spokesman for Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan denied that Turkey has agreed to the EU framework agreement. "Talks are continuing. There is no agreement yet," said Akif Beki, a spokesman for Erdogan. Austria has been demanding that Turkey be given lesser partnership rather than full membership. |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 13:05
|
According to Komnenos' observation of some reporting done people on the streets of Vienna, the Austrians are more-or-less saying that they do no want Turkey to enter due to the fact that the Ottomans tried to capture the city centuries ago. http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5905&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5905& ;PN=1 If that is the case, I hope this simple grievance could be put to sensible rest and old animosities would just wither away. ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 15:12
Seko: As I am sure you have observed, the closer you get to the Balkans, the less likely it is that old animosities wither. Just something to be aware of, I suppose. |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:32
|
Austria is complaining, but Greece isn't?? |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:38
| Austria needs to realize the Habsburg empire is no more. They eventually gave way though. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:44
|
Well, Greece is a little slow on complaints... The answer though should be no... at least not at this moment. They have a lot of ground to cover, especially in human rights and to get into the european way of thinking, something very difficult... unforturnately, I guess the "midnight express" movie is what everybody is thinking of. I didn't watch the news today... so, where are things right now?
------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:46
Austria is a very conservative Catholic country. Greece hopes that EU integration of Turkey will lower the tensions between the two nations and probably also that will create a nearby market for Greek products. We'll see how is it when Turkey finally is in. The curious thing is that Cyprus can perfectly veto Turkey and would have its good reasons to do that but is acting in a very moderate way. The other curious thing is that most people in most EU countries is rather against Turk entrance, while their governments are rather favoring it. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:49
Carla del Ponte congratulated Croats for cooperating now with the Le Hague tribunal and that has probably loosen Austria resistences (Austria favors Croatia but is negative towards Turkey). They had agreed to some rephrasing of the negotiating mandate and now Turkey is studying it. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 18:42
|
------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
|||||||
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 19:17
|
Thanks for the info. Really complete post. Regards |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 22:20
|
Uh thanks.. I pray this is not an inside insult to me... Anyways, I wished to present the view of the actual people inside the E.U., and not just their governments views. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 07:14
|
The majority of the people say "NO" while the majority of the governments are adamantly in favor of Turkey's admission... Shows only that the governments are not listening to their voters but to the European businesses (who want to make inroads into the Turkish mega-market) and the US government who wants to repay the devotion and decitation of NATO-member Turkey by putting the pressure on the Europeans to accept Turkey in our closed club. May I suggest USA takes Turkey in as a nominal State, and the EU businesses that want a share of the Turkish pie, immigrate and stay there? Actually, I'd love to see a public referendum abou the Turkey admission. My take is that it the "NO" vote would be quite decisive... |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 12:54
I have mentioned this before when we discussed the French and Dutch vote on the EU constitution, and I can only say it again, I'm glad the German constitution does not allow any referenda. You're probably right in predicting that, for example, the German electorate would come out in a majority against Turkey's entry, if we had a referendum, but thank god, nobody's gonna ask them. Like in many other referenda, it would not be decided by voting on the actual question in hand, by on voting on a variety of unconnnected issues. I don't think the German people would familiarise themself with all the complex political, social and economic implications of Turkeys entry, but vote according much they like their Turkish neighbours or workmates, or how much the recent Anti-Islamic propaganda has sunk in and they fear Muslim terrorism, and similar irrational reasons. Referenda are fine, but only if the voters are forced to demonstrate that actually know what they are voting on. The completion of a 200 word essay on the pro and contras of Turkey's entry should be the minimum qualification for being allowed to vote on the issue. As it isn't, the results of the opinion polls above, are not much more than a reflection of Anti-Islam sentiment in Europe. ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 13:37
So, as this can be read, democracy in Europe should be the opinion (and interests) of elites rather than the will of the people? |
Posted By: just Turkish
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 13:51
|
i don't think turkey should join eu,come on!!they r asking for 2 much... it looks as if the country has lost it's dignity,like their begging to get in but what i know is that people r sick of it,how long has it been since they have been playing with turks? ------------- hhhhhhmmmmmmm |
!Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:26
That is actually what I thought while reading it, but then, wouldn't the use of the term democracy be simply inappropriate ? ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:46
It is a point of discussion. Komnenos states that the people will make judgements on more emotional issues ( feelings about neighbors/workmates). However, one person/one vote means what it implies. The elite graduates of Ecoles Superieurs and the EUROcrats most likely do not have Moslem neighbors. And given the recent actions of Moslem radicals on four continents, people can be excused for having concerns about terrorism, irrational or not. |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:47
Someone had a good comment on it in one of the turkish newspapers site, he said its like being given a ticket to a sinking ship, then corrected it to buying it.. then said no no.. its like buying the ticket over its price from the black market to a sinking ship.. sounds better in turkish anyway..  and a little note, there is 10 years minimum to join the EU, a period in which we'll probably be put on hold, or thrown out of a million and invited again, and talked over another billion times..and asked to say sorry for invading anatolia, and coming to earth...and in these 10 years if this nagging EU woman is worth the trouble and the nag, we'll tie the knot.. if not.. then adios.
|
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:02
|
|||||||
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:20
|
The first step has been overcome. Let's cheer for more productive discussions with the eventuall harmony between Europe and Turkey. The more I think about the EU's puppet show with Turkey the more I believe most europeans will never exhaust themselves from making difficulties for her. Same goes for the MHP types from Turkey. There are lots of options on the table. Turkey needs to look at them all and still have the resolve to cope with European sensitivities and prejudicism. Pikeshot, the whole notion of a referandum sounds fishy. If it wasn't done before for previous countries then why do it know? ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:24
The Europeans must do it their own way.....I just commented on Komnenos's statement in re the referendum. |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:42
I'm aware, I dug a hole for myself here. I can't remember the exact figures, but when after the recent referenda on the EU constitution voters were asked why they voted as they did, it turned out that a large number of them did so, because they either supported their current government or not, and then used the opportunity to say so.The question of the EU wasn't on very many people's minds at all. I have lived in the UK long enough to have witnessed how a large part of the press, especially the papers under Rupert Murdochs control, have over decades continiously manipulated the public over the question of the UK membership in the EU. It has been an endless anti-European campaign, with one fabricated horror story about Brussels after another, with relentless attacks on Europhile politicians, at home and abroad, and so on. Any referendum in the UK on Europe would nothing but reflect and demonstrate the influence of the conservative mass media, and how far it has succeeded to influence the public's mind. And that is the reason, Germany disallowed referenda in the constitution that was adopted in 1949. After the experiences of the Weimar Republic,not unsimilar to those recently made in Britain, it was decided that this form of direct democracy is open to too many manipulations, and that there should be various other levels, where the public could form political opinions and act upon, political parties for examples that would sent its representatives into parliaments where more balanced decisions could be made. This system is far from perfect as well, but it has more safety valves built in. It was exactly this suspicion, that the so-called people's will is not always that was it seems, but rather the product of opinions and interests of an elite that is able to manipulate, that the fathers of the German constitution convinced to disallow referenda, and that wasn't such a bad idea. ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:45
Well, don't worry about it. The state of California allows referenda; has them all the time, and nothing can get done out there......Democracy run amok. People get tired of elections. Some years ago, they voted on whether their insurance premiums should be lower......guess what the outcome was. |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 03:41
|
Well, Komnenos and others, I still believe that if our democracies are democracies, we should have a saying in issues like this. It isn't about a miniscule matter, this one is of utter importance and the people are expressing their disdain at every possible opportunity. People don't want Turkey in = Turkey should not be in. It's not an issue of muslim neighbors or whatnot, it's just like people have nothing to gain and lots to loose, while the corporations (the main force behind Turkey's admission and also behind the recent "Drang nach Osten" policy that undermines the rights of the workers in the whole western part of the continent - not to mention rise in unemployment rates caused by the moving of many, many businesses to cheap-labor Eastern Europe) are going to make big money. This has to stop. EU is not about the corporations - it is not just the common market, it's supposed to be about the people. So, the people should be given some power after all! |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 05:42
Maybe you could enlighten us with your analysis why the people of Europe allegedly don't want Turkey's entry into the EU. That should be interesting. I certainly agree that the driving force behind a further economic integration are industrial corporations, but if it has as its side effect a further political unification in Europe and the abolition of antiquated conceptions of nationhood, and thus the abolition of antagonisms between countries and their people, I'm prepared to take accomodating the interests of big business as part of the deal. Maybe we could concern ourselves with that at some later time. ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 07:17
|
Enlighten... hmm... do I sense a tad bit of sarcasm there? There are various reasons. The majority seems quite solid in their belief that Turkey is not European. They believe that European Union is precisely what it says - an union of European states and so it must remain. If USA wants to pay favors to Turkey, have them as a state. Many nay-sayers believe that Turkey is too much of a burden for Europe to undertake, and not too long after a series of other underdeveloped economies of the former "iron courtain" already began consuming lots of resources. There are people on the left side of the political spectrum who simply loathe the prospect of an undemocratic state joining the EU with the strong democratic tradition. There are others who believe that Turkey acts as a bully international affairs and so has no place in EU (I would add that under that light, they'd be perfect as an US state). Of course there are many xenophobes and muslim-loathers among the nay-saying crowd. But they are not the majority. And at least one of the concerns of those - the flooding of Turkish immigrants - sounds quite reasonable... although I believe they are misguided in this too: the Turks won't come to Europe to look for jobs in the German or French factories. On the contrary, the German and French (and many other...) factories shall move to Turkey. |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 07:52
|
Well , I was and probably always will be against the membership, but at
least the protocol signed gives me the ability to sleep easily and feel
secure cause someting will change..by no means do I consider this enough but it is a step in the right direction.. See point 7 : "In the period up to accession, Turkey will be required to progressively align its policies towards third countries and its positions within international organisations (including in relation to the membership by all EU Member States of those organisations and arrangements) with the policies and positions adopted by the Union and its Member States." Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/euturkey_04_10_05.pdf - http://news.bbc.co.uk/ This obviously directly implies, acceptance of all UN resolutions...aka Cyprus, 12 mile zone, human rights....etc. What I also want to see is exactly for how long, can or will the EU goverments continue to avoid to listen to what the majority of their people want without some reaction.. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 08:14
|
I was and probably always will be, in favor of Turkey's admission to the EU. Reason is that I preffer to have a prosperus, democratic neigbor, with whom I'll enjoy close cooperation in trade, travel and international forums. Of course, it's now up to Turkey, since it has agreed to this frame, to modernize and to incrporate all the changes that the EU is asking. The sooner, the better! I anticipate the strongest reactions will come from the army. EU will never accept an army which is involved in politics and which is involved in the national economy (Turkish army owns banks, factories, land etc, is a major player in Turkish economy). Will the Generals let go? We'll see... ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 08:24
|
Turkish army owns banks, factories, land etc, is a major player in Turkish economy). Do you mean OYAK? It is an organization built for soldiers not army,and no not a major player.
|
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 10:00
|
Yiannis Well, I'll agree that a democratic neighbor is far better to what we have, (no offence intended) but the issue is IF they really want to be a real democratic state ? I wouldn't want someone that allegedly turns away from past practiced unjust laws/mentalities simply to please the EU when in reality they feel this as a step in the wrong direction... If you've given any attention to some of the member's posts, you'll see that they speak of giving up their pride, speaking of comprimising...etc. I hope that these are just personal views and don't represent what the majority believe. I want a future member to believe that the reform is actually a step towards their future, something that HAS to be done for the citizens prosperity and not to think that they are just being toyed.. How can I consider this a truelly wanted step towards democratic reform when all I need to do, is just take a glance at their new Penal Code to see that they are still stuck onto their past ?? ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 10:11
|
well do you know, this day greece didnt let a foundation because Its name is Rodop Turkish woman foundation, what a menace to greece. I dont think EU can help greeks much, after all It didnt help Turks in greece much. So If you are supporting Turkey because of this, you are wrong. EU couldnt stop unjust laws/mentalities in greece, why should do it in Turkey. Maybe you should be against to Turkey union with EU.
|
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 11:03
|
Mortaza As I said not only do I not support Turkey's membership but I strongly oppose to it. (you probably missed my previous post) Anyway, I fail to understand why you continuously compare Hellas to Turkey in many of your posts, be it education, freedoms, economy...etc. I don't know where you get your info from but the "Turkish Union of Ksanthi-Women's Club" has been functioning with absilutely no complaints what so ever, so why you have any is beyond me.. Just in case you need a link: "March 2002-Issue 45 Women-Day Celebrated 8 March-Women -day was celebrated with many activities arranged by different organizations in Western Thrace. Women came together in a tea party organized by Western Thrace Minority University Graduates Association Women's Club in association building. Turkish Union of Ksanthi-Women's Club arranged a dinner at a restaurant. Turkey- Rumelia Turks Culture and Solidarity Association organized a panel discussion related to Women-Day. There were women representatives from Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria and Ilknur Chalil and Sevil Sherif were the representatives of Western Thrace at the panel discussion." http://www.ogretmeninsesi.org/en/index.asp - http://www.ogretmeninsesi.org (it also has a link in Turkish) When I mention mentalities and laws, I mean specific issues, that have been mentioned far too many times. If we just look into the new law reform, we find : (just a couple of many examples) ____ ""Article 216 -Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half)."" ---- This article literally means you FORBID anyone to say he is of a different race, religion..etc so if a Kurd says he's a Kurd, or should a Christian attempt to perform his religion, he'll be sent to JAIL.. (3yr sentence) *what about Article 31 that legitimizes "honour killings" *what about "virginity testing", *discrimination based on sexual orientation (aka homosexuals) *penalization of sexual relations of youth aged 15 – 18. *Freedom of Expression. *the old Article 159 "insult or belittle various state institutions" that Amnesty International demanded to be abolished reappears in the new PC in Articles 299 - 301 in the form of "Crimes against symbols of the states sovereignty and the honour of its organs" *One of my favorites is Article 305 that condemns "acts against the fundamental national interest" now, let's see the explanation added with examples : "making propaganda for the withdrawal of Turkish soldiers from Cyprus or for the acceptance of a settlement in this issue detrimental to Turkey... or, contrary to historical truths, that the Armenians suffered a genocide after the First World War". Anyway, this could get really long. My point is that beside the notable attempts to shake the past off the society, some, obviously have no intention to do so.. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 12:38
Turkey has been member of most European organisations, from NATO via UEFA to the Eurovision song contest, and that for a long time. If they're good enough for the North Atlantic Pact, they certainly are good enough for the EU.
This argument is brought on every time a country joins the EU whose economy isn't as developed as those of leading economies in Europe. We've heard in the early 80s, when Spain,Portugal and Greece joined, we heard it last year and we will hear it again. Initial support in the development of newly joined nations must be seen as long term investment, that will pay off eventually, as it has done in the case of Spain,....etc.
There are also people on the left who argue that an EU entry and the preparations for it, will necessarily develop and strenghten democratic processes in Turkey, as it has done in the former Communist countries that had no great tradition either.
Don't understand this argument.
I doubt that they are not the majority, but there is no way proving it one way or the other. ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 18:49
|
Are you sure about that? Because right after the protocol was signed, the turkish fighters went for a "walk" over the Aegean once again... nothing changed and being honest I don't have much faith that miracles will happen in the future...
Cyprus and the 12 mile zone, as well as many greek islands registered on turkish maps as turkish are only some of the "minor" problems... also consider that although the Greek Goverment has proposed many times to Turkey to go to the international court about the islands in the Aegean, Turkey has neither accepted or even made comments on that!
Well, this is an internal conflict for Turkey as the army is strongly involved in politics and getting into the EU means that the politicians will go stronger and the army go weaker and that is certainly something the Generals do not want. They like having the upper hand... Human rights is also a very big issue... ------------- |
Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 02:51
|
This is an old, tired and highly inaccurate statement. NATO is a Defensive (or, if you dont buy the whole cold war concept, Military) Coalition of countries, which has absolutely nothing to do with Europe per se. The fact that most western European countries are members of NATO too, is totally irrelevant, and not just because many non-european countries are also members. Participation in NATO does in no feasible way render a country fit for participation in EU, which is a political-financial union of European states and has completely different requisites, agenda, goals, aims, character and focus. Also, Israel is a member of UEFA and Eurovision should we grant them membership as well?
Yes, thats true. Although Turkey is nowhere even close to where the three countries you mentioned were in the late 70s or early 80s when they joined. For the European corporations it IS a long term investment. Only problem is that the money does not come out of their pockets, but out of ours (=the taxpaying people). I dont want to pay so the companies can do business with Turkey.
That logic is flawed. EU membership is not an just an incentive for undemocratic states
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_1929915_05/11/2004_49169 - http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_19299 15_05/11/2004_49169 This is only a small sample
Well, I still think they are a small minority, but you are entitled to your opinion not to mention I cant actually prove mine. Has there been any poll about this?
|
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 09:16
|
!2 mile zones (in whose interest is it anyway ?), Cyprus and the EU membership are pretty heated discussions in AE. You guy will be amazed at the back catalogue we have on them. In response to one of your points of contention, you mention that Turkey is 'nowhere even close' to Greece, Spain and Portugal. Yet Turkey's GNP from 2002 is about equal to that of Portugal and surpassed it in the ensueing years. Turkey has a high percentile growth rate at over 5%. For Greece, Tourism is a key industry, providing a large portion of GDP and foreign exchange earnings. Greece is a major beneficiary of EU aid. Yet Turkey has surpassed Greece in tourism income last and this year. ------------- |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 09:21
Yeah, I know what you mean.. Well that what we get for allowing a bunch of halfwits call themselves politicians and represent our country abroad.. The halfwits dare call it a "good will" movement to withdraw from the negotiation table the clause against the so called "high risk" military activities conducted by Turkey in the Aegean. As a result we had the pleasure of watching 36 fighter planes (half heavily armed) invading the Hellinic airspace for 18 consecutive times and jeopardize the safety of civilian flights.. I wonder what will happen first, will we shoot one down again or will a Turkish pilot be responcible for the the loss of lives on the civilian flight and what good will the responcibility be, when even one life is lost?? ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 11:59
|
Did you talk with Turkey while expending your air space and sea borders? No. You can not expand your borders against Turkey's interests. Agean Sea is not an ocean nor an open sea. You will learn how to live together. So unless Turkey accepts; which is impossible, you have only a self declared air space and sea borders. Turkish planes will fly over and of course if you have enough courage you will shot down a Turkish plane and you will get the concequences. You are making again nonsense propaganda claiming that Turkish war planes are messing with civilian planes. Are you child or what? Civilian flights have nothing to do with air space. There are international air routes accepted by international aviation organizations and evey state know this and accept it. You claim Turkish war planes will attack civilian planes or acting dangerously around them. Your lies have no limits...... |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 14:57
|
Alparslan Child??? Propaganda??? Maybe it's time you took off those nationalistic glasses and took a real hard look around you... What do you think your fighter planes do when they invade our airspace, come in to have a coffe while they watch the babes sunbathing... Some of many such events of harrassing civilian flights : 19/10/2002 Gov't spokesman confirms Turkish jetfighters' harassment of Greek civilian flight http://www.hri.org/news/greek/ana/2002/02-10-19.ana.html - LINK --------- 07/11/2002 23:19:21 Turkish war-planes on Thursday harassed two civilian aircraft in the air corridor connecting Greece with Cyprus, at the border of the Larnaca and Athens Fight Information Region (FIR). According to sources, 18 Turkish F16 in six formations infringed on Greek airspace over the islands of Samos and Hios, while in ten different instances they violated the Athens FIR. Specifically, two Turkish F 16 war-jets, harassed the Olympic Airways flight 332 that took off from Larnaca and was bound for Athens, about 30 nautical miles west of Rhodes and at an altitude of 34,000 feet. Ten minutes later, quite possibly the same pair of aircraft harassed
Cyprus Airways flight 323 that took off from Athens and was bound for
Larnaca, about 35 nautical miles west of Rhodes and at an altitude of
33,000 feet. http://www.hri.org/cgi-bin/brief?/news/greek/apeen/2002/02-11-07_1.apeen.html#01 - LINK
09/06/2003 23:36:02 The two Turkish jetfighters harassed a Greek civilian flight 25 nautical miles southwest of the eastern Aegean island of Lesvos. Civil aviation authorities identified the intruders as Turkish F-16s, whereas the civilian passenger jet was Olympic Airways flight 321, which was headed for Istanbul at 8:48 a.m. at an altitude of 29,000 feet Authorities said the OA pilot was obliged to change altitude for safety reasons. http://www.hri.org/news/greek/apeen/2003/03-06-10.apeen.html - LINK http://tovima.dolnet.gr/list_by_topic.php?fyllo=12464&tmhma=01 - TO BHMA ----------- Most links of news articles I've found aren't in english, but it is beyond any doubt that the Turkish fighter plans don't enter the Hellinic FIR for a simple visit, since there are numerous accounts of harassing civilian flights, interrupting military excercises....etc
Big words from someone that as usual, has no knowledge of what he attempts do discuss. Read the article and next time dip your tongue in your brain before you use it...       So tell your pilots to watch out cause seems like some, are courageous  ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 15:10
|
We have here a classic example of one upmanship which is a precursor to flame wars. Such braggardly behavior (over partial links) is to be avoided. This type of discussion tends turn into ethnic battles over the same old gripes. Open till further notice! Barely. ------------- |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 15:53
|
Sorry bout the little outburst, but it's the second time in a couple of
days I've unjustly been call a propagandist by someone who didn't know
the facts.. At least baracuda, did acknowledge he was wrong, I hope to
see the same above from Alpasan.. Anyway, Turkey is a new economy so it's logical for money to pour in but,while GDP is important : Hellas:
Turkey:
Source : Economist. what is even more important is HD (Human Development.. "Human development is about much more than the rise or fall of national incomes. It is about creating an environment in which people can develop their full potential and lead productive, creative lives in accord with their needs and interests. People are the real wealth of nations. Development is thus about expanding the choices people have to lead lives that they value." http://hdr.undp.org/hd/ - LINK So based on this notion and the same source we see :
Where I disagree is the tourist industry you mentioned. Hellas' GDP is by no means depended upon tourism alone which is why we see only 15% of the annual GDP comming from that area. While again a new market like Turkey has gotten a large piece of the pie, Hellas is far beyond the point where we count the tourist period in quantity, but we look into quality. Meaning we are over the tourists that used to come and split a 'Greek Salad' and a Coke in 2 or 3, we have managed through our continuous presence in the tourist industry to uphold a quality of services that makes them come back. My point is that in 2 good tourist years doesn't make you one of the top choices of tourist destinations, probably will in time but then again may never become one.. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indic/indicators.cfm?x=15&y=1&z=1">
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 18:13
|
Hi Phallanx. I saw this quote many times in your posts. I think it has a different meaning. It says that if someone instigates (provokes) any ethnic, racial, religious etc. group to hatred against another, he will be sent to jail. Am I wrong? Of course especially nationalist governments may abuse this article so its limits should be strictly determined (for example racist actions should be punished but expressing ethnic identity should be secured) but literally, I think just forbidding provoking racial, ethnic religious hatred against another is not bad... ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 18:33
|
Well, the way I understood it, if you urge a minority, be that ethnic or religious to say, for example, "the Kurds are not Turks but a separate people that need self-identification and rights"
or if you attempt to promote your own religion by practising it, ex.
Christianity, you can be charged for 'instigating' hatred among the
communities.. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 18:38
|
But that's an abuse of that article. Of course such abuses should be prevented but that article prevents for example, any racist provocation against others. Maybe it should be revised by a clearer and inabusable version... ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2005 at 20:46
|
Well you might be right.. I did a little search and here is what I came up with... From the International Publishers Association Article 216 (ex-Article 312): Instigating a part of the people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media, to be increased one-half). Old Article 312 read: ”One who openly praises an action considered criminal under the law or speaks positively about it or incites people to disobey the law shall be sentenced from six months to two years of imprisonment and to a heavy fine”. It appears that Article 216 increases the maximum prison sentence initially set out in Article 312 from Conviction under this Article is possible as long as the “incitement to enmity and hatred” constitutes a “clear and close danger”. The assessment by the judge of a “clear and close danger” leaves room for further abuse. Article 312 has been used as a way to penalise writers and publishers who support minority issues. (my point exactly) Recently, there has been several acquittals in Article 312 cases. One example of this was the acquittal of Ömer Asan's “Pontus Culture” (Belge Pub.). Gazi Çağlar's "12 September is Being Judged" (Belge Pub.) was also acquitted on Despite this, cases of "judicial harassment" continued before the passing of Article 216: Ahmet Kahraman's "Kurdish Resurrection" was still being tried and publisher Ahmet Onal’s acquittal in a 312 case was appealed by the Supreme Court of Appeal (book accused: “Alevism in Dersim”. Not only was the acquittal decision quashed by the Court of Appeal, but he was also brought to court on two new separate cases (Art. 159 TPC and Atatürk’s memory).
RECOMMENDATION: Make explicit that only “open and evident calls for violence” should be considered under this article. This will stop Article 216 of the New Turkish Penal Code (ex- Art. 312) from being used as a way to penalise writers and publishers who support minority issues. Source: ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: eduncan22
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2005 at 00:07
Odd that you rank the United Kingdom as a 3rd Tier power. You seem to be ignorant of their military, economic, and cultural status in the world.
|
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2005 at 03:02
|
Phallanx why dont you interest your country? dont you know your country have one of worst economy, EU have. and she is getting one of biggest economic help from EU.If you realy care economic situation of EU, you should exit from EU.
For Good wish? do you think we are so happy because of your good wish. Infact what type of good wish you are talking about, ROC and Greece was biggest problem of our enterence to EU. If We would have a major problem, reason will be cyprus not other countries. Your country was trying to get their political aim with selling us EU membership. Pls no bribe us. If you learn what is good wish, learn how your country reentered NATO, Turkey didnt vote Greece, and want nothing for it. This is good wish, not What greece or ROC did. Also I am realy curious how your civil airplanes are dangered? do you think they will crush with our planes? do you have realy that much bad pilots? Or you are just talking nonsense? I think you are not trying to provoke us, but you are trying to show your good wish to us By the way your obsessed interest with my country make me proud. I am sorry, you cannot find any Turk interested your country as much as you. But well, after all we are normal people, not obsessed people. Have nice day in Greece.Just reminding you, you are living in greece, not Turkey. |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2005 at 03:32
Actually Greece was one of the biggest supporters of Turkey's accession talks with the EU, as your PM has acknowledged. Cyprus is not a real problem to this process, Turkey will recognize it and get it over with, or it will be intimidated by the big EU countries to silence. The real problem will be, if some countries request a referendum for Turkey's actual admission to the EU. In anycase, the trip to meet EU criteria, will be the real benefit for Turkey, rather than the actuall accession itself.
Now, I agree with you that this is becoming boring, but if someone wants to talk about it, s/he is free to do so. Hope that everyone will continue following the topic and discuss in a civilized, based on arguments and not in an aggressive manner! It would be a pity to close this thread down as well.
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2005 at 05:26
|
Morataza Well the topic is Turkey in EU, if I went on babbling about Hellas in this topic, it would eventually be locked or I'd be considered another ITAPEVI (sp?), well without the pics.. If you want to discuss my country's economy...etc, open a topic and I'd be more than happy to do so.. You seem to miss that now, that Turkey is on their way to membership, just as Romania, Bulgaria...etc are, they too will be accepting economic assistance to reach the level of other EU members, that's how the system works, sorry but I didn't decide it to be so... I said good will, which may be different to what you mean by wish maybe not, but anyway. Yeah, of course it was a political move, a move that actually gave you less obstacles and allowed you to come to an agreement far easier that it could have been. Just imagine Hellas throwing on the table the issues of : Imia, 12 miles, occupation of Cyprus, Halki, the Patriarchate....etc and by an ultimatum, say that either you agree or we veto. Would there have been any agreement, do you know or can you imagine where your economy would be exactly now?? A fiew minor objections came up and your market was going crazy a couple of days ago, imagine something like this Again I fail to understand the 'wish' but anyway... Obsession get real, sure I am interested in my country's future which is going to be effected by your country's membership, your country's future conduct.. what is weird about that, why shouldn't I be able to discuss it without you considering it obsession.?? Where you are wrong is that there are many of you interested but simply don't have anything to complain about.. I see issues, issues of democracy, Human Rights, conduct towards neihgboring countries...etc. while you see nothing but a member of the EU, of course not perfect, but obviously far better off that you are, so what can you honestly say.. I know exactly where I am living and where I belong, your problem is not being able to accept critisism, you can't become a member of any community and not abide by the already founded laws and expect not to be critisized. In AE, it starts with a warning, you either change your act or you're banned.. Well consider my posts part of the warnings you'll see from the EU down the road towards membership.. Finally I find it dissapointing that you, instead of deciding to discuss in a civil manner, decide as Alp did to come around with insults and rediculous sarcasm when you obviously lack the facts..Did you not see the articles, both of newspapars and of airfocemonthly ??? Here is the http://www.iasl.mcgill.ca/airlaw/public.htm#avsec - "Air & Aviation Law http://www.iasl.mcgill.ca/airlaw/public.htm#avsec - Public International Law" I suggest you read a thing or two about proper conduct and safety of civilian flights.. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2005 at 17:06
Apparently for Turkey...
Excuse me, but there are certain facts that you are leaving out... Turkey has interests in the Aegean Sea and tries very hard to convince everyone that everything in the Aegean must be shared or devided or at least that is what you would want deep inside... That my friend is not the case, nor the reality! Talk to Turkey about the 12 mile expansion? Why? Have you forgotten the fact that Greece has the official right by decree to expand the sea borders for 12 miles and Turkey has declared that if Greece does so, it is ground for war? Greece does not expand the 12 miles not because they have no right to do so, but in order to maintain a balance in the area and because some halfwit politicians (like former prime minister Simitis) thanked the U.S. with that incident at the Imia islands. That my friend was ground for war (if Greece was a military country like you are), having some turkish journalists getting on a small greek island, lowering the Greek flag and putting on the turkish one and claiming it for Turkey... You forget the facts very easy and quickly... The problem with Greece is that the politicians do not rise up to the occasion and I don't mean offensive moves against Turkey. That would not be the solution in any way and noone wants anything like that, but there is a weakness even in claiming what is rightfully ours. There is no dispute about the Aegean Sea, there is no dispute about the greek islands. This bedtime story should finish once and for all. I am sure that each country has her history written differently and everyone says "we are the winners, we tell history as it is"... but there is a difference between propaganda and actual facts, especially when they are official by international decree as the 12 mile issue or when you draw your own maps, different to the official international ones... No hard feelings mate... but being a nationalist does not help. I would suggest reading international newspapers every now and then...
------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2005 at 17:13
|
Oh and sorry about the off topic message, but I believe that some things have to be said. The topic though is Turkey in the EU, so let's stick to that. Can our turkish friends tell us what their Goverment and Army are planning to do about the human rights issue in their country, especially the conditions in prisons etc. ?
------------- |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2005 at 17:35
|
Below, there is a link to the Turkish Secretary General for the EU Affairs. It includes the documents for the fulfillment of the political Copenhagen criteria. I hope they will help you... http://www.euturkey.org.tr/abportal/category.asp?TreeID=246&VisitID=1A5DC240-DDE7-4925-BCF3-D5F10F4E3541&Time=2621 - http://www.euturkey.org.tr/abportal/category.asp?TreeID=246& amp;VisitID={1A5DC240-DDE7-4925-BCF3-D5F10F4E3541}&Time= 2621 ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2005 at 18:39
|
Thanks for the link, but I was asking more about changes, generally speaking in what you think about human rights issues in your country and what has to be done. It is also a state of mind for the people, not just a political agenda or criteria. Having a strongly involved military in politics, for example, makes it difficult to protest (about anything)? What are the reactions of the police or the military in your country when the simple people protest in the streets? I think that most of us have seen some "images" in the news, but I was more looking for the inside story. The opinions of the population about the human rights in your country.
------------- |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 01:42
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 01:57
Oh, never mind, I'm sure that Turkish conditions in prisions are not much worse than in France or Spain... they will make it up a little bit and everything solved.  -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 02:25
|
The people have spoken: They do not want Turkey in the EU. Now this is the problem with government, the big business has much power over the governments, while for the people it is hard. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 03:31
|
I hope they will. Then the European states would support their claims and our accession will be impossible. Maybe our economy will suffer a little, but who knows, I may do my holiday in a Turkish resort in Rhodes next summer... ------------- |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 08:22
|
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 14:13
|
hehe I see that The European Union without Turkey would be a very boring thing.. Especially for those of greek origin ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 14:41
Care to clarify this one...
Maybe if Turkey didn't keep this arrogant stance, we'd have nothing to nag about. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 15:31
|
Of course it is unrealistic to ask for proof and that is not the case with my question. A change can not be made when it comes only from the top. The people of a (any) country and the way they think have to change as well.
There I have to agree...
They might not be different, but personally I have never seen on tv a french or spanish prison and the prisoners being hit to death or be inprisoned in awfull conditions. I have seen images though from a turkish prison on tv. That's why I mentioned it... I was in Kusadasi and Effesus 3 years ago... the town of Kusadasi a miracle for tourists, clean, polite, police officers everywhere not allowing anyone to go near the tourists, etc. But 500 m away from the center, the people were dirty and hungry and in the streets and in awfull condition. A make over is good, but when it is not a permanent one and you put away the "make up", you might see a total different "face"!
------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 15:36
Hmmm... our claims? Care to explain the "turkish resort in Rhodes" mate? Are you planning a new Imia in Rhodes next summer? Damn... I'll have to change my travelling arrangments...
------------- |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 21:00
|
Turkey blaming the EU for being a Christian club! What nonsense! There is not a single European country whose population is 99% Christian, while Turkey is 99% Muslim. If it is such a "Christian Club" then why is Turkey dieing to get inside? Geographically, Turkeys population and land is mainly located in Asia. Spain can be an African country too I guess since it owns a little bit of land in Africa. I know this is a hard situation to be in, when your muslim brothers in the middle east do not fully accept you, and europe does not accept you.. but at least you are trying to get with the wealthy side of the 2.. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |