Could entry into the EU lead to another mass migration into Europe similar to what happened after the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 AD?
I would not blame a poor Turkish family for migrating to were there are more opportunities.

If this does happen how much would this alter or impact existing European cultures?

At one time the coptic Christians were the majority so I wonder what Europe would be like in a hundred years if they are allowed entry into EU?????

Yannis wrote:
"From my part, when I was serving my military duty in Samos, I can assure our Turkish friends that I never saw any landing vessels full with armed to the teeth, blood-thirsty soldiers, ready to put to sea towards Kusadasi. Only ships full of Greek and foreign tourists "

I havent served, partly coz i dont have to, more so becuase my greek is shocking and i expect to suffer terribly becuase of that. But rhodes is my station and what a place to be conscripted!!!.


Edited by Leonidas

thats a plus point to greeks from me, in Turkey they send you to midlle of a battle, where people speak kurdish, where communication is impossible and where you risc youre own life  That's simply nightmare of any Turkish guy. But who pays i think 7 000 � (?) serves only a month.

Originally posted by Yiannis Originally posted by DayI But who pays i think 7 000 � (?) serves only a month. Sorry, I didn't get that part. You mean that some people only serve for 1 month in the army?

yea if they pay circa 7000 � (dunno exact how much) only serve one month (21 days to be exactly). And they are in a secure place (burdur).

ps; now they asking me to serve for military, in this situation if i enter Turkey i must serve 15 months But ill must go to Antwerp consultation to avoid that till my 36'th year and then ill serve one month.

Originally posted by Yiannis I hope this doesn't mean that you won't be able to re-enter Turkey until you turn 36!

 If the paperworks are ok, then there is no problem.

An interesting artickle in CNN, indeed Turism can bring Turkey closer to EU.

Turkey hopes tourism boom helps its EU bid

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But the Dutch tourists weren't going inside. "I've seen it too many times," said Anita. Jan said it was his sixth trip to Turkey.

The de Bruynes are among some 22 million tourists expected to visit Turkey this year -- an increase of 25 percent over last year, according to figures from the Ministry of Culture and Tourism.

Those visitors include 12 million Europeans and a growing number from the United States who have become enchanted with this country lying on the fringes of Europe and Asia, rich in the ancient histories of many civilizations. Some 334,000 U.S. citizens visited Turkey during the first nine months of 2005, a 47 percent increase over last year, and some 550,000 American tourists are expected next year.

Turkish leaders hope all these visitors will help improve their country's image and deepen ties with other nations -- an effort that has become particularly important as negotiations get underway for full membership for Turkey in the European Union.

The EU talks began October 3, but the proposal remains controversial. If admitted, Turkey would be the only country in the EU that is virtually all Muslim, and it would stretch the borders of the EU east to Iran, Syria and Iraq. The latest polls show only 35 percent of Europeans support Turkey's EU bid, and their views on Turkey's lack of "Europeanness" are proving stubbornly hard to overcome -- even among Europeans who enjoy vacationing here.

"It's a nice place to come visit, but it's something else to have it as a member of the European community," said Jan de Bruyne.

Still, tourism is seen as a way to soften these attitudes. "Tourism must be taken up as a national policy priority, supported by all sectors, groups and organizations," the government's 2005 "Tourism Master Plan" posted on the ministry's web site says.

East and West

There could hardly be a better backdrop than the Haghia Sophia for discussing the pros and cons of allowing Turkey to join the EU.

On the one hand, the church, built under the direction of Byzantine Emperor Justinian I, is a reminder to many European visitors that Turkey has been home to a complex mix of civilizations. As Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said, Turkey "can easily be a bridge between East and West."

Americans contemplating travel to Turkey also sometimes wonder if they will be welcomed here, given the backdrop of the war in Iraq and anti-American sentiment in some parts of the Middle East.

The answer is "most definitely," according to Pamela Lassers, spokeswoman for Abercrombie & Kent, a luxury travel company based near Chicago. "That's the one thing people comment on when they return. They were surprised at the hospitality they find in Turkey -- not to mention the wonderful infrastructure and wonderful hotels."

She added that the company is seeing "a pent-up demand for Turkey. It's one of the places people are requesting this year as they're looking at more exotic destinations. ... It's so rich in history and has such an interesting culture with the influence of both East and West."

Even recent reports of bird flu cases have failed to rattle potential visitors. "People sometimes ask questions about it, but with all the information we have now, they understand that it's primarily a problem for people who have direct contact with the birds, so they're not too concerned about it," said Lassers.

Meltem Onhon, a spokeswoman for the Turkish Culture and Tourism Office in New York, agreed that tourism has shown no signs of dropping off in response to the bird flu reports. She added that "there is no evidence of any human contraction of the virus in Turkey."

Promotion abroad

Turkey's tourism industry took deep hits in 2001 following the terror attacks on the United States and again in 2003 with the start of the war in neighboring Iraq, but recovered rapidly and has become one of the country's most important and fastest-growing sources of income. Al-Qaida-linked truck bombings in 2003 also set back tourism, but the country has more than recovered and tourism is expected to contribute around $20 billion to the economy this year.

The country is certainly blessed with more than its share of attractions. Istanbul spans two continents and was the capital of both the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. The country's western and southern borders are the Aegean and Mediterranean seas.

Government-sponsored promotion abroad has also helped push the industry forward. For months, buses in many cities across the world have been plastered with images of Miss World 2002, Turkey's Azra Akin, blowing kisses and welcoming visitors.

"Their advertising campaign got my attention," said Spyros Boukalis, a Greek-American visiting Istanbul at the end of a monthlong European tour.

Abercrombie & Kent has 17 tours of Turkey planned for 2006 with three separate itineraries and is also increasingly being asked to arrange individualized itineraries for Americans who want a private driver and guide.

Popular destinations, in addition to Istanbul with its Grand Bazaar and many cultural attractions, include the Aegean Sea resort of Bodrum; the ancient city of Ephesus, where archaeologists are preserving sites dating to Roman times; and Cappadocia, where hot-air balloons take visitors above "fairy chimneys" of stone that are so soft the Byzantine Greeks carved subterranean cities out of them.

I have made this point before:

The Tourism board of Istanbul has finally started to emphasize the non-Turkish history of the city more, but it still has a ways to go.  I was in Istanbul last October (2004) and noticed that any historical monument dating post-1453, or anything from before that had an Ottoman stamp (ie modification) on it post-1453 had descriptive write up for any lay person or uninformed tourist to see and read about. 

Anything that was strictly Romano-Byzantine had the minimalist write-up.

I'll give an example here:  The Theodosian Obelisk in the center of the Hippodrome (At Meydani) is an obelisk that is over 3,500 years old, and sits on a base of marble that has a 4th century relief carved on it of Emperor Theodosius I and his family in the kathisma watching various events.  Some of you have seen it live or pictures of it.  Here is a picture I took during Ramazan last year:


And the only piece of information about this historic monument is a slab about ankle high that looks like this:

nothing else, you could almost miss it as it is so low.

Doing things like this will help Istanbul at least have an image that it is not sompletely alien (by that I mean people (most of the EU) who classify anything that is Christian as local, and anything not (in this case Muslim) as not).  Pay homage the city's christian past, and associate the city with the grandeur of Imperial Rome, as well as it's Muslim heritage.  Before my trip when I would be explaining to friends/family that part of my European trip was going to include Istanbul, I got responses like "Why there for your first trip to Europe?  Why not Rome, Venice, Florence, Paris etc?"  When I mentioned that Istanbul was the capital of the Roman Empire for over 1000 years, I would get a look of skepticism....

If Turkey wants in to the EU, adding the perception of it's Christian heritage would help it in the public relations battle that the above article  states it is currently losing with only 35% of Europeans supporting their entrance.

The fact that one of the most spectacular Christian structures ever built eventually became a mosque underscores the vast cultural differences between Turkey and other EU nations.

Intolerant Muslims have converted the Church into a mosque in the 15th century, which would never ever happen in a EU country due to vast cultural difference? This one sentence speaks volumes about how ignorant and prejudiced the Westerners are. Even those writing friendly press articles about Turkey. If this is what they think when they see the minarets of Ayasofya, they'd better stay at home...

"That's the one thing people comment on when they return. They were surprised at the hospitality they find in Turkey -- not to mention the wonderful infrastructure and wonderful hotels."

This is quite misleading as well. Poor readers may think Istanbul has wonderful infrastructure...

What happened was an over-excited nationalist Greek member of the European parliament asked the 'question' you shared with us to the parliament. And got ignored, since no one heard about the EP passing a resolution about this issue. I see you conveniently forgot to mention these things, when giving your source as the EP.

Anyway, your point in posting this was what? In what way does this show that converting temples to is unique to Turks? In what way does this answer the point I raised?

Besides, your MP hero with the Turkish name is wrong, neither Ayairene nor Ayasofya are churches. They are both museums. And they legally belong to Turkey. Turks have the right to do whatever they like with them. 

Btw, I've been to a few concerts and art exhibitions in Ayairene myself, but unfortunately the performers were all fully dressed.

YES !!!!

If they can reach the Maastricht critera, they should be accepted into the EU. This will maybe happen in 15 to 20 years from now... by that time Turkey as we know it today will no longer exist:
- less corruption
- more democracy
- more human rights
- a land named Kurdistan?

The EU will never let a coutry like the actual Turkey enter the EU, and it makes sure that things are changing (like the hot kurdish topic - has to be settled, aswell as the Karabagh issue...).

Only time will tell, but on a legal basis, they have land in Europe and should not be discriminated against. Moreover, personnaly, i think a country like Turkey could bring so much more than the lage majority of the 10 new arrivals and the next to come (Romania & Bulgaria).

PEACE.