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Topic ClosedGreece+Serbia vs Turkey
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Phallanx View Drop Down
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Posts: 1283 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greece+Serbia vs Turkey
    Posted: 11-May-2005 at 11:35
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

And we have the satellite Turksat...


True you do have "Turksat" but what you obviously didn't mention is the major difference, "Helios-2" is a military satellite while "Tursat" is a communication satellite.

If any satellite could do the "dirty work" I would have mentioned our "Hellas Sat" but as I said these are communications satellites not military, which makes them useless in any war.

vulkan02

What do you mean I keep bringing them up?? I only mentioned them once.
Why get the Serbs involved when they obviously couldn't care less about  Turkey since it's miles away and not mention those that would get into it, like the neighbours???
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Posts: 1449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2005 at 13:31
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

I think technology isnt the most important factor in winning a war. Humanity witnessed it lots of times throughout history.

In such a war, which would really be an example of historical amusement, it is sure that Turkey would succeed. Population is the most important factor to me, and Turkey has a massive young population ready for any war, especially with Greece, since Greece is recognized as an external threat for Turkey.

To invade Turkey is nearly impossible, like to invade Iran, since most of Anatolia is too mountainous, to reach central Anatolia and Eastern Anatolia is very hard, Turkish army is one of the most powerful and well equipped, and especially experienced armies all over the world, and military is compulsory in Turkey. Also our air forces are too powerful, but i cant say the same thing for our navy, since navy and sea wariorship have always been the weakest link in Turkic militaries.

 Turkey has a young, increasing population of 70 million, about 7 times of Greek population, which isnt that young and ready for a war. Also Turkish military has its war traditions and experience of thousands of years, even the words and degrees of military are the same with the system Maodun (Mete Han, a Turkic khan, who ruled Xiong Nu from 201 B.C. until 174 B.C.), Turkish military have been active with dealing with PKK and other stuff, and it is very effective on Turkey and Turkish citizens since it was another Turkic state tradition since ancient times.

About technology, military spending and amount of military stuff, Turkey is again adventageous. In EU, countries usually seperate the biggest amount of national incomes for welfare and health/ education etc., but in Turkey, this is for military. And Turkish army is really well equipped and always populated, ready with the compulsry military missions.

I dont even think I have to mention Serbia as a significant enemy, since they are celebrating the only important war that they won against Ottomans with the help of Russians every years as a national braveary day. And they try to prove themselves not being inferior by destroying old Ottoman bridges and castles. But I am sure that serbia would surrender after two Turkish troops arrive in Belgrad.

Finally, to mention the national unity in Turkey isnt necessary at all. I wonder what would be the reaction of the Turkish population against some Greek soldiers moving to Istanbul from the Greek border, who reacted as creating a patriots army of tens of thousands of Turks in the middle street of Trabzon (Trebizond), a city with a big minority populations, against some people trying to deliver PKK supporter papers, in a couple of minutes. And after a public anouncment of a war btw Turkey and Greece, repeating this clause: "the invader Greek forces ancestors killed your grandfathers and grandmothers", we can be sure that all Turks who can get any kind of knife or sharpened object to his hand would run to the battlefield to die as "shehit"s and go to Heaven...

Some points are wrong.How do you know they will go to heaven?

Technology is the ONLY factor here.A bomb successful enough can destroy millions while a soldier can only kill 60(oen fire)with all supplies made

TECHNO RULES!!!!
"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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Posts: 1449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2005 at 13:35
Originally posted by vulkan02

Originally posted by Yiannis

Assumption 3. Impossible for Turks to penetrate from Thrace. Instead, Greek mechanized troops, with support from air, can rappidly advance in Eastern Thrace plains and gain ground. Turkish tank forces in the area are far inferior to Greek counterparts. Gained ground in Thrace can/will be used to bargain against a possible lost island and return to the pre-war borders.



How are Turkish tank forces in the area far inferior than Greece??... even if they don't have the newer tanks there , they can simply be driven there. Such air support would  only be available if somehow the Turkish airforce is miracously destroyed ...

Yes.Turkey's airforce is greater in numbers and technology(not that much in techno though)

And the greek troops cannot advance,we have so many troops there and our tanks at that border are not old
"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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Posts: 1283 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2005 at 15:37
Forgot to mention that TurkSat 1B (it's proper name) is literally "out of order" and has to be replaced by 2007.
 "TUBITAK" (technology institute of Turkey) has added in the new plans for the satellite that will replace TurkSat 1B to have the ability of military use.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2005 at 12:04

Some points are wrong.How do you know they will go to heaven?

Technology is the ONLY factor here.A bomb successful enough can destroy millions while a soldier can only kill 60(oen fire)with all supplies made

TECHNO RULES!!!!

I didnt say "they will go to Heaven". Only God knows this. I said "because they believe if they die as 'shehit"s they would go to heaven". Please read my post carefully.

Technology is certainly not the only or the most important point. No country can use nucleer missles in such a war, and Greece or Serbia dont have such bombs. But Turkey somehow has (some in Incirlik Base, Adana) and these missles are military bribes from USA.

And we saw that even the technology of US isnt able to beat some guerillas in the forests of Vietnam. So the clue isnt technology, it is braveary and guerilla warfare.

In such a war btw Greece+Serbia and Turkey, if some Greek troops can somehow get into inner Aegean and Taurus, they would be totally destroyed by the armed locals, Yoruks etc. in the mountainous area if the army was late to arrive there.
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Posts: 1283 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2005 at 14:40
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

  Technology is certainly not the only or the most important point. No country can use nucleer missles in such a war, and Greece or Serbia dont have such bombs. But Turkey somehow has (some in Incirlik Base, Adana) and these missles are military bribes from USA.


I think you are refering to the US base in Adana but that has been disarmed since 1962 or maybe the NATO missiles that were transfered to Turkey for the NATO "summit last June but once again those are long gone.
In any case there is not 1 source to support that Turkey has nuclear arms.
NATO missiles in Turkey probably yes, but that doesn't make them your's to use.

I think we need to clear who will be doing the invading???
The way I see it whoever invades is the one to lose.


Edited by Phallanx
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Posts: 722 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 06:10
Actually the the possible results of a Greece attacking Turkey scenario, was answered by NATO at the end of the 80's, maybe in the 90's there should be a document some where as NATO is all about documents, I read the proposed doctirines from the greek side, although I can not say that the answer is very respectful to the greeks so I wont write it here.


Edited by baracuda
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Posts: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 07:33
hehehehehehehheheheeh OUR BRAVE SOLDIES WILL NEVR DIES AND WE WILL DRIVE YOU BACK WHEREZ YOU COMES FROM
Drive them back to asia!
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Posts: 1449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 10:04
hehehehe a diffrent approach
"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 14:16

Originally posted by MegaloIdea

hehehehehehehheheheeh OUR BRAVE SOLDIES WILL NEVR DIES AND WE WILL DRIVE YOU BACK WHEREZ YOU COMES FROM

...
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Posts: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 15:22
anuzer facist i see,listen i says i,yo facist will no survive!we wll drive yo back!tanks iz nothink,we have our ancestors curce upon yo
Drive them back to asia!
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Posts: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 18:16
Originally posted by baracuda

Actually the the possible results of a Greece attacking Turkey scenario, was answered by NATO at the end of the 80's, maybe in the 90's there should be a document some where as NATO is all about documents, I read the proposed doctirines from the greek side, although I can not say that the answer is very respectful to the greeks so I wont write it here.

Now let me explain.. pure numbers.. Greek army even with the introduction of serbs to it doesn't have the numbers that turkey can produce in war-time or in peacetime in both armament or soldier count.

Turkish army specifics of readines are only matched by that of Russia, time for overall war-state readyness 36-72 hours..

Technology, since the 70's all turkish military contracts have been conducted with the rule that 70-90% of the weapons bought must be contructed in turkey, not to say that the latest generation of F-16's and their Lantirn and electronics greece bought from turkey.. All the armament used are produced and mantled in turkey.
Airforce, turkish airforce, besides numbers.. and planes, although the majority of them being latest F-16 and modified F-4 and non modified various F-4 variants.. and other planes..Helicopters from UH-1S kobra, and king kobra consists of many pilots that have war or terrorist experience.. on the other hand greece doesn't have that many pilots with such experience..

Turkey does have nuclear capability and no it is not purely american missiles left over from the cold war, and yes it is solely controlled by turkish airforce, so it would be suicide for greece to even atempt any such manouver even if they did have such weapons.

Naval, turkish navy isn't what it used to be, and does have some of the most modern german diesel attack subs and stateof the art last generation frigates... adding of course to the fact that gunners and markmanships of crews have proved themselves in joint war excersizes.. greek navy well also very good and traditional, but in modern warfare time is of the essence...

Army, well over a million soldiers only in Nato being the second largest soldier count goes to turkey, in wartime the potential soldier count is more than half the population as turkeys population is quite young.. there is also one more fact, althought turkey is quite a young nation founded in the 1920's the army and its structures is not, it is a continuation of the ottoman army (that is why even when the politicians make a mess of things turkish people turn to the army)it tradition.

Turkish characteristics, a turk in peace maybe insignificant but in wartime he will die willingly. ("army of hero's" - NY times headlines - korean war)
Serbs, here do play an significant role as from my knowledge they can match this as their people are not less couragous in wartime.

Now wartime scenarios..

Greece I have no idea as to why but always has tried a no-win scenario.. using the fleet to Crete (or rodos) off turkey, then from there to cyprus and then to attack joining forces with the cypriots or alone from below.

First of all the mass of the turkish navy is in the agean.. secondly one of the worlds biggest and most accurate radar system is also in the western region of turkey, thirdly 1st, 2nd, 3rd army forces are in the western asian region of turkey, and finaly the better portion of the turkish airforce is in the antalya region.. (moved to location a few years ago)

Now.. assuming they made it to Crete,say somehow the radar operators slept.. and the airforce was on holiday,the journey from Crete to cyprus..greeks loose their airforce cover even with fantasy makeshift airbases on the islands you cant land troops anywhere due to the structure of the coast and there is an turkish army minimum 10 times as big as the soldiers you can land.. and cyprus.. its just a pure death trap as it is not even 2 minutes to bomb any location in cyprus from antalya.

Joint Greek scenario more real.. attack from european side with serbs via land, airtroops over izmir with cover of long range guns from fleet, and the fantasy scenario of cyprus via crete.. and lets throw in cypriot forces also.. say they aim their s300 frogs.. to low altitude in a sense use them to bomb like the V2's of WW2.. and for the sake of it lets fantasize that they modified them or bought a few of no-dong korean balistic missiles..

   Now deconstruction.. 1 european part of turkey might seem to be powerless but that is relative as a large tank and motorized command, large fleet and a medium sized airforce contingent will provide enough soldiers and the terrain will make it impenetratable.. so thats flawed, and there is only a 10% chance for the greeks, serbs to get through to any key location, well maybe they might take over a few places but it wont be for long.

    2. part.. Izmir.. again turkish side has a medium ace squadron that mainly does acrobatics in peacetime.. medium attack/bomb squadron 5 minutes air distance, 2 main army batalions, and 1/2 the navy.. izmir can be damaged, but thats about it. (0%)

    3. part The island and Cyprus fantasy.. 1/3 of the navy, 3 main and 1 mobile army, main attack/bomb squadron 1 minute away. Cypriots can do damage with their rockets but, this damage will be mainly done to civilians as they wont be able to control the fall of their rockets.. a No-dong situation.. would mean they will fire to specific target military locations.. but turks do defend their bases even if this was succesfull.. it would mean the total anhiliation of all military personel and presence in cyprus.. (30% to Crete, 0% further)

   4. part.. for the fun of it lets try to add to the greeks a win win situation lets say they payed the arabs, Syria, and Iran to join in the fight..

   Now syria is a matter of opening the taps in the GAP dam then they have no way of getting tanks to turkey.. they are left facing a the second largest airforce, consistent of not so modern planes.. but they don't have such planes themselves.. so they can only use their army.. 4th battalion and the specified army for terrorists is in that region along with a massive turkish tank battalion, with generals who wrote a new doctrine in tank warfare on rugged mountain terrain against terrorists..
(Syrian success rate about 10%, they can make damage to the area though.. about 20-30% chance)

Iran on the other hand can do a lot of damage, if reaction to them is late.. but then again like the syrian scenario they are against a formidable elite war hardened turkish (due to terrorizm in the region)
(Iranian success rate, 20-30% with a damage potential of over 60-70%)

In fact there is no way that any type of greek,serb,irakian,syrian force that can take over turkey with the amount of military force and population turkey has. It is even impossible for America or other nations to do so with the same situation. So since this is impossible by means of strategy it is done with politics.. greece tries it by constantly lobbying and supporting anti-turks where ever it can, iran, syria via agents trying to find supporters via religion.. and the most dangerous of them all america via financing and idealogy of groups of non-turks or turks believing themselves to be something more, contained within turkey (just like the english,russians did with the ottoman empire and the armenians)

The answer of Nato to Greece was that of the turkish army, navy, airforce generals think of total invasion of greece as a weekend afair.. and the above scenario's are not just fantasies of my imagination, they can be found in war scenarios and strategies in nato papers.

I have to note that this is just a pure scenario situation as in real life, turkey has war agreements with russia, turkic republics, Syria and Iran.. not to speak of relationships.. like grandmothers/fathers of leaders of some arabic countries being of turkish origin and so on...

I would be interested to hear any more strategies of this kind, if you have some email or PM me ( doesn't have to be in this theatre of the world..)

p.s.. I just re-read the posts here, and saw some EU scenario, and want to answer to that, being in the EU has reduced the soldier count of every nation that is in it, due to budget issues, they also reduced these counts in the NATO contingent.. so to say the proffessionalized the military forces.. And now efforts are made to join production of weapons and so on.. a proffessional soldier is not a born fighter but instead he/she is trained to do specific tasks, his limitations are his own will and power..and of course his week point is his technology.

example.. put 8 ultra modern soldiers, in a street war sittuation, against an enemy that only has grenades, and rifles.. but consists of 16-30 people.. the chance of the survival of those 8 ultra mods is not very high.. (Irak present day )

or even put a super plane in the sky.. and the enemy uses old version "NIKE - Ground to Air rockets" or russian versions.. do you think it can overcome a single Nike rocket that is controled by an expert crew? answer is No. You cannot JAM, or electronically fool something that is mechanical and not computerized..(ex yugoslavia)


   


great article!
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Posts: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 18:27
it is clear without having to look too much into stratergy that Turkey cannot possibly lose this type of scenario...the question its wether Greece and Serbia can hold back the Turkish juggernaut.... for more than 2 weeks that is 
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Posts: 722 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2005 at 00:37
Thanks..

Edited by baracuda
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Posts: 1096 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2005 at 01:58
Armies are fueled by a strong economy, and since  turkeys economy is shakey to say the least, they could not hold a long successful war against  most of Europe.
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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Posts: 722 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2005 at 02:18
Strategos.. War is not about money nor is it about economy, its about alliances, fuel, resources and manpower...

Europe scenario brings with it Allies most of the arabic and islamic nations.. and with a strategic war alliances with Russia, China, Kazakistan, Kirgizistan need I say more??

Ps. yep the scenario is scary, but never-the-less feasable.
Pss. Turkish Forces are in no way tied with the economy of the country, they might be limited on what they are to buy, but thats all their limitations..


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Posts: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2005 at 02:57
Originally posted by baracuda


Anyway funny enough as history goes year 1998-9 turkey actually considered in buying 2-3 aircraft carriers and ordered for purchase and delivery in 2012-15 ..(of course this type of fleet can be used almost any where mostly for defence and not attack..) but it should give the EU something to think about..


they ordered these from the US??.... you involving EU etc... but lets just keep it between the  three mentioned nations... Turkey would not attack Greece, especially when its aching to get into EU this wouldn't make sense at all ... i also agree with the economy issue..... war does not entirely depend on it... in fact in many cases war HELPS the economy because it creates jobs. Look at what happened in the US during the Great Depression... they tried all sorts of programs to get rid of unemployment but none worked... as soon as US got involved in WW2 most of unemployed people found jobs in military manufacturing.
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Posts: 722 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2005 at 03:53
...

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Posts: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2005 at 09:16
yeah but then if they attacked how would they expect to get into the EU.... by attacking a member of EU 
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ok

Edited by baracuda
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