Gaza flotilla activists or terrorists?

'Terrorists wanted to kill us': wounded raider

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 02:51

It seems those passengers were more dangerous than Palestinain terrorists, I think those who have been survived, should be legally tried too, read it:

The Israeli naval commando who was hurled from the upper deck of a Gaza-bound ship -- and later jumped into the sea to save his life -- yesterday described the harrowing ordeal of being attacked by knife-wielding "peace activists."

"Everyone wanted to kill us," the officer, identified only as "Captain R.," said from his hospital bed in Haifa, where he was recovering from a stab wound to the stomach and other injuries.

He was the commander of an elite team of marines on a mission to halt the Mavi Marmara early Monday, and the second man to rappel down a rope from his Black Hawk helicopter to the top-deck roof of the ship.

"One of the guys from my group was already down there, and there were a few people on him. It started off as a one-on-one fight, but then more and more people started jumping us," he said. "Dozens of people beat each soldier on the roof."

He said he was forced to go for his handgun.

"I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs. I cocked my weapon when I saw one of them coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me and threw me down to the deck below," Captain R. said.

"Then I felt a stabbing in the stomach. It was a knife. I got the knife out, then somehow got down to the lower deck. There was another mob of people," he told reporters.

By that point, more commandos had arrived on the upper deck and seized control of the ship. But the lowest deck, where he was, remained in the hands of the attackers.

"Another solder and I managed to get out of there and jump into the water," he said.

Captain R. disputed earlier accounts that only a few dozen of the 600 pro-Palestinian activists took part in the violence. He said at least three quarters of those aboard were involved, "each one with a knife in his hand."

He gave his account as Israeli brass tried to defend themselves in the face of bitter foreign denunciations of the raid, which killed nine passengers -- as well as sharp domestic criticism of the way what should have been a police action turned into a high-risk operation by an outnumbered team of commandos.

Captain R. admitted that his men were stunned by what they encountered on the top deck of the Mavi Marmara.

"Though [those on the boat] wanted to break the Gaza blockade, we thought we'd encounter passive resistance, perhaps verbal resistance. We didn't expect this," he said. "We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything to prevent injury."

Captain R. said his soldiers adhered to the values they studied, including the Israeli code known as "Purity of Arms," in which forces show humanity toward the enemy, try not to harm noncombatants, and carefully use their weaponry only to the extent it is needed.

A top Israeli navy commander said the lesson to be learned was to avoid being outnumbered next time.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," he told The Jerusalem Post. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future, as if it was a war."

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Jun-2010 at 02:58

Mortaza

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 03:10

Is this the only time this has happened in 3 years? Surely other vessels have been borded and stopped and searched. Did no other crews fight back before? Why this one, and why now?

why not? dont they have right to protect theirself?

They are not as professional as israel soldiers. They tried to protect their ship with unprofessional ways and israel soldiers killed them. In reality, Israel treates as somalian pirates without their mercy.

It seems those passengers were more dangerous than Palestinain terrorists, I think those who have been survived, should be legally tried too, read it:

'Terrorists wanted to kill us': wounded raider

It is interestiong that you love to choose objective sources for your argument. Anyway, who died?

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," he told The Jerusalem Post. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future, as if it was a war."

we boarded ships? So they are invited by people for holidays but they are ambushed? they are tried to occupy a ship. "It is not we boarded ship for holiday."

Anyway, It looks like israel was ready for war not civilians. (or do israel soldiers have clubs and civilians had guns?) Ironic:)

kalhur

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 04:59

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

If Turkey sends warships and the IDF attacks them, then what--That is an attack on NATO then NATO would be compelled to act--I hope Israel isn't that dumb

While I support Israel in general they make some bonehead PR moves

this time it is surely one such a big bonehead PR. Smile

anyway who knows maybe their attention in the begining was only make a movie like army propaganda video-clip to show the POWER of IDF , but every thing totaly went wrong when they met such a hard resistance and become beaten by unarmed crew Shocked

and finnished by disaster when they were forced to shoot their way out of the situation. one should never understimate the unarmed pacifists LOL

anyway now antisemites all around the world have such a nice argument to say how the semites are savage and barbarian Clap

and they do not respect human right and kill unarmed people Disapprove

SAMAD-AGHA

DreamWeaver View Drop Down

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 05:39

Is this the only time this has happened in 3 years? Surely other vessels have been borded and stopped and searched. Did no other crews fight back before? Why this one, and why now?

Yeah Mortaza they do have the right to defend themsleves, bringing a club to a gun fight though, not a great idea. But the question still remains. This blockade has been for 3 years, why this one, why now? Have there been no incidents in the past, or is it a case that the deaths of 30 people are more noteworthy than say the death or wounding of one or two.

(I dont intend to use Bold but the buttons on the reply page are currently jammed)

Edited by DreamWeaver - 02-Jun-2010 at 05:40

TheGreatSimba View Drop Down

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 06:12

Please answer these questions.

Hey Cyrus, do you also use Nazi German sources to study World War II.
Do you use Iranian regime sources regarding the 2009 uprisings/Green Movement (according to the Iranian government they were terrorists, and the Basiji's used self defense when they killed protesters).
Do you use Chinese government sources to study the Tienanmen Massacre?
Do you use Hamas sources to study the Israeli Palestinian conflict?
Do you use Soviet sources to study Soviet history?

Thanks.

Oh by the way, if these civilian's were terrorists, why is Israel letting them all go? Why is Israel not providing any evidence of their links to terrorism? ITS BECAUSE THEY ARENT TERRORISTS.

@ DreamWeaver: thats irrelevant, this time the Israeli's chose to kill people. The illegality of this event has no relation to past events, its still illegal, whether it happened in the past or not.

Edited by TheGreatSimba - 02-Jun-2010 at 06:17

I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 06:32

Actually it is relavent. If they've shot people in the past (anyone know?) and they have done it now then the two are ultimately connected, its all part of the same process, the continuation of a crime. Blinkers just dont suddenly descend on the situation.

Also if they have shot people in the past, then we are all massive hypoctris for condemning them now over this one action but not for past ones. Is the death of 30 somehow more important than the death or wounding of a few?

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 07:08

Israel gets away with things like this all the time, and with the help of my government, the United States, it looks like its gonna get away with another crime again. Things like this have happened in the past, and there has always been outrage, but this time its different in that this was an multi-national flotilla which was carrying humanitarian aid to a blockade which after three years has become very unpopular world wide.

I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.

opuslola

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 07:21

TGS, you keep referring to this "Blockade" as if it was designed to keep necessary items for health, welfare, etc., from reaching Gaza!

As you should well know, this is the furtherest thing from the truth! It is a "blockade" designed to keep arms, ammumnition, and other military supplies from reaching the terrorists within Gaza!

All humanitarian aid is allowed!

http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/

Mortaza

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 08:58

Is this the only time this has happened in 3 years? Surely other vessels have been borded and stopped and searched. Did no other crews fight back before? Why this one, and why now?

Maybe, They did not foresee this blood bath.

Yeah Mortaza they do have the right to defend themsleves, bringing a club to a gun fight though, not a great idea.

Totally agree. But who can guess such gun fight.

But the question still remains. This blockade has been for 3 years, why this one, why now?

Well, my nationals are a little horny. Maybe this is reason. Infact, we should as why 3 years people just watch it? But I do not think, this is first time israel kill a civilian.

Difference is this time israel killed at international waters and killed turkish citizens.(a country which had some power) If murdered people were arab, still world will not just care them..

As you should well know, this is the furtherest thing from the truth! It is a "blockade" designed to keep arms, ammumnition, and other military supplies from reaching the terrorists within Gaza!

clubs and knifes? This is what they found at mavi marmara. I am sure, Hamas can find a lot of knife and club without others help..

opuslola

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 09:32

Dear Mortaza, you wrote;

"As you should well know, this is the furtherest thing from the truth! It is a "blockade" designed to keep arms, ammumnition, and other military supplies from reaching the terrorists within Gaza!"

You wrote; "clubs and knifes? This is what they found at mavi marmara. I am sure, Hamas can find a lot of knife and club without others help.."

You are not being realistic! Without searching the passengers and cargo, just how would Israel know if weapons were part of the shipments!

After all, these ship "knowingly" ran from the Israeli authorities, refused to stop, and allow boarding! These are the very acts that would be used by any group trying to smuggle weapons into Gaza! They, in fact, made themselves a target, with deliberation, and fore-sight! Perhaps some of them wanted to be martyrs? Some of them, it seems, made it!

You cannot doubt that the leaders of this expedition knew of the rules and the hazards for failure to comply! But, they did it anyway!

They were either very brave of very foolish, perhaps a little of both?

When one is confronted by a pride of hungry Lions, it probably will not do much good to throw sticks and stones!

In this case both sides lost!

Regards,

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Mortaza

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 10:22

You are not being realistic! Without searching the passengers and cargo, just how would Israel know if weapons were part of the shipments!

So you are telling me that after searching passengers Israel would let them to go ? do you realy believe it? or can you find anyone who can believe this?

After all, these ship "knowingly" ran from the Israeli authorities, refused to stop, and allow boarding!

Just guess why?

These are the very acts that would be used by any group trying to smuggle weapons into Gaza!

Yup, So maybe Israel should want a neutral part for searching. You know israel is not much trustable..

They, in fact, made themselves a target, with deliberation, and fore-sight!

They did not made themselves target, Israel soldiers targeted them..

Perhaps some of them wanted to be martyrs? Some of them, it seems, made it!

Perhaps some of israel soldiers wanted to kill them. Some of them, It seems, made it. At least, 9 of them.

You cannot doubt that the leaders of this expedition knew of the rules and the hazards for failure to comply! But, they did it anyway!

Indeed. So You should ask yourself why?

When one is confronted by a pride of hungry Lions, it probably will not do much good to throw sticks and stones!

So because, Israel is hungry lion, People should bow her like a sheep?

Maybe, some people have some honor to refuse bowing a hungry lion or an evil wolf? Maybe that was israel mistake, choosing to force for every problem.

In this case both sides lost!

Yep but I think a third side gain a little.(Maybe not much) Anyway, aim of flotilla is to help that third side.

Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 10:38

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Please answer these questions.

Hey Cyrus, do you also use Nazi German sources to study World War II.
Do you use Iranian regime sources regarding the 2009 uprisings/Green Movement (according to the Iranian government they were terrorists, and the Basiji's used self defense when they killed protesters).
Do you use Chinese government sources to study the Tienanmen Massacre?
Do you use Hamas sources to study the Israeli Palestinian conflict?
Do you use Soviet sources to study Soviet history?

Thanks.

I don't know what you exactly mean, it is clear that the primary sources are better, do you expect that I use anti-X sources to study X history? or should I use unrelated sources?! For example we can use Afghan sources to study Aztec history!!!

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Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 10:55

What I belive TGS is getting at that you can not complain about using Israeli Sources to study or understand Israel. Just as it is relavent to use sources from Nazi Germany to study the Nazis. This is of course in addition to using say non Israeli sources to study Israel and non Nazi Germany Source for Nazi Germany. One must use, study, examine and weigh all sources relavent to the topic and argument, irrespective of who made them. Everyone needs to be considered. Some are better than others, but if TGS decides to use Israeli material he is entirely within his right to do so. All must be bornewith a pinch of salt though.

You are not being realistic! Without searching the passengers and cargo, just how would Israel know if weapons were part of the shipments!

So you are telling me that after searching passengers Israel would let them to go ? do you realy believe it? or can you find anyone who can believe this?

Yes.....thats how it works....if they arent carrying contraband then they get let go and canproceed on their way. Its a rather simple concept.

opuslola