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Gaza flotilla activists or terrorists?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
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Forum Name: Current Affairs
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28442
Printed Date: 13-May-2024 at 01:33
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Topic: Gaza flotilla activists or terrorists?
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Subject: Gaza flotilla activists or terrorists?
Date Posted: 31-May-2010 at 10:33
It is interesting to read it: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089 - http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089
 
A left-wing activist on board the Gaza flotilla holding a knife

A left-wing activist on board the Gaza flotilla holding a knife after Israel Navy commandos boarded their ship on May 31, 2010.

 
I think there are enough terrorists in the Gaza Strip.


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Replies:
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 31-May-2010 at 11:14
Israel is a criminal terrorist state, and one of the most oppressive in the world. It has turned Gaza into one huge ghetto, just like the Nazi's did. It is an apartheid state just as South Africa was. It violates every international law at will, and is the most threatening rogue state on the planet.

The terrorist government of Israel massacred 19 civilians who had every right to defend themselves and their ships when boarded by a hostile force in international waters.

The Nazi's fell, the racists in South Africa fell, and Israel, if it continues on this path, will eventually fall as well. History is quite clear on this, Israel cannot survive by making enemies of everyone.

Regarding the activists, Israel will say anything and everything to tarnish there image. If Israel is right, and these are all terrorists and they were carrying weapons to Gaza, THEN WHY HAS ISRAEL PREVENTED REPORTERS FROM SEEING THESE PASSENGERS, AND WHY HAS ISRAEL NOT SHOWN THE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ITS CLAIMS? As usual, Israel will continue to makes false claims, go on a publicity blitz on news networks world wide, keep spewing their propaganda, and not show any evidence.

The truth is clear, the facts dont lie. Israel can lie as much as it wants (and like it always does) but eventually, like the kid that cried wolf, people wont buy it anymore.

And by the way Cyrus, that picture you posted appears to be a fake.

--------------------------

The Israeli navy http://warincontext.org/2010/05/30/israeli-navy-approaching-freedom-flotilla/ - began harassing the convoy when it was still well over 100 miles from Gaza, deep into international waters. As the ships drew closer the Israeli military attempted to http://twitter.com/freegazaorg/status/15063346272 - disrupt their communications (journalists were reporting from on-board and a live video feed was streaming online) and began issuing threats. Finally, Israeli forces attacked, with soldiers descending from helicopters to board the ships. Initially Israel http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195997.stm - claimed that no activists were killed. It then performed an abrupt reversal, familiar to veterans of its http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/01/lie-you-werent-supposed-to-believe.html - clumsy rhetorical acrobatics during the Gaza massacre, reporting that at least 10 people were killed, but claiming that it was the peace activists who "attacked" first (as one commentator http://twitter.com/iRevolt/status/15093391537 - observed : "

eculiar how Israel is always violently attacked but it's only the ‘attackers’ who die"). Thus news organisations reported that http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7789117/At-least-16-dead-as-Israeli-troops-storm-Gaza-aid-flotilla.html - "[f]ighting broke out between " ( http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/05/israel-attacks-gaza-flotilla-kills-at.html - via ) the activists and the soldiers, as if unarmed peace activists could ever meaningfully "fight" highly-trained, heavily armed members of one of the most sophisticated militaries on the planet. The BBC went even further, intoning, over footage of what was clearly a direct attack on unarmed civilians, that the Israeli soldiers were attempting to " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195997.stm - control passengers " ( http://twitter.com/mariexen/status/15093106928 - via ). Eyewitness reports, by contrast, described how Israeli forces started shooting " http://twitter.com/freegazaorg/status/15090503156 - the moment their feet hit the deck. They shot civilians asleep ". "This was not a confrontation", they report, " http://twitter.com/freegazaorg/status/15086272687 - [t]his was a massacre ". An al-Jazeera journalist aboard the ship reported that " http://www9.gazetevatan.com/israil-turk-bayrakli-yardim-gemisinde-olum-kustu/308396/1/Gundem - despite the white flag being raised, the Israeli Army is still shooting, still firing live munitions ".



You can read more here:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/5/31/871561/-Israel-massacres-unarmed-peace-activists


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-May-2010 at 11:56
Israel has been surrounded by Muslim countries but the fact is that Muslims are not brave enough to fight against Israel face to face, all they can do is pray for fall of Israel or support some terrorist groups but Israel is strong enough to survive, I think the world certainly needs Israel for the balance of power in the Middle East, unfortunately most of the people really don't know about the threat of real terrorists who kill themselves to kill others.

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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 31-May-2010 at 12:03
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Israel has been surrounded by Muslim countries but the fact is that Muslims are not brave enough to fight against Israel face to face, all they can do is pray for fall of Israel or support some terrorist groups but Israel is strong enough to survive,


Well of course the Arab militaries cannot face the Israeli military face to face, its one of the best in the world and has been built up by Europe and the USA.

Israel cannot survive on its own, its heavily dependent on aid, both economic and political.

For example, did you know that there was a law passed in the USA in the 1970's that makes it illegal to refuse to do business with Israel?

Israel gets a heck of a lot of help!

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


 I think the world certainly needs Israel for the balance of power in the Middle East,


What balance of power? There is no balance of power in the Middle East, Israel dominates everyone  else.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


 unfortunately most of the people really don't know about the threat of real terrorists who kill themselves to kill others.


The threat of terrorism by individuals is minuscule compared to state terrorism. For example, Israel massacred 19 civilians today, that is more than the number of Israeli's that has ever been killed by rocket attacks from Gaza. So in one day, Israel killed more people that it had ever lost by rockets coming from Gaza...


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 31-May-2010 at 12:25

The problem maybe is that unlike various Coast Guards all over the world, the Israelis do not have any non lethal weapons.  They just go from "stop please" to shooting with nothing in between. That is an international incident waiting to happen

Though the "peace protesters" were contrived, the Israelis could have tried to:
 
-Tear Gas, sonic blast, laser dazzle and water cannon the heck out of it. If it does not stop.....
 
-Disable the rudder (automatic cannon fire?).  I doubt that the ships rudder could take alot of punishment.
 
 
 


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 31-May-2010 at 12:30
Originally posted by Cryptic

The problem maybe is that unlike various Coast Guards all over the world, the Israelis do not have any non lethal weapons.  They just go from "stop please" to shooting with nothing in between. That is an internations incident waiting to happen

Though the "peace protesters" were contrived, the Israelis could have tried to:
 
-Tear Gas, sonic blast, laser dazzle and water cannon the heck out of it. If it does not stop.....
 
-Disable the rudder (automatic cannon fire?).  I doubt that the ships rudder could take alot of punishment
 
 


First off, lets not forget that the flotilla was launched because of the humanitarian crisis as a result of the brutal siege on Gaza.

Second of all, Israel has no non-lethal weapons? You cant be serious, come on, you're trying to tell me that the Israeli's do not have rubber bullets or paintball guns at their disposal?

LASTLY, ALL THIS HAPPENED IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS, ISRAEL HAD NO RIGHT TO INTERCEPT THE SHIPS IN THE FIRST PLACE AND THE PASSENGERS HAD EVERY RIGHT TO RESIST THE ATTACK ON THEIR SHIP.


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 31-May-2010 at 12:36

I find this video in you_tube made on board of "Marmara" ship. It`s seen that person from the crew attack a commando with (metal?) stick. From the other side the crew obviously don`t have a guns. May be arme blanche, but not guns. Crew started a resist against Izraeli force.

[TUBE]9fYVi6_m-0k[/TUBE]

The other interesting thing is a strong reaction in Europe. We can`t see every day the all Europe stand as one against Israel. I have a feeling that all is just one big well-planed provocation. The question is-who is the author and what will happen? One is clear-this incident will became important part from the history.  



Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 31-May-2010 at 12:39
Exactly, the Israeli's claim there were weapons on board but the passengers used metal rods and sling shots to defend themselves from the Israeli aggression. WHERE ARE THE TERRORISTS ISRAEL? WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS?

Their ship was attacked in international waters and the passengers had every right to defend themselves and their vessels. What Israel did was piracy.

I hope the world wakes up.

-------------------------------

In the mean time, I dont know about other countries, but the Israeli propaganda machine is working full time over here in the United States. The lies and the spin on what happened absolutely disgusts me.

--------------------------------

Hey Cyrus, here are your "terrorists":

Partial list of passengers on board:

*USA

Greta Berlin. Co-founder of the Free Gaza Movement

Hedy Epstein (86) St. Louis, Missouri.

Katherine Elliott Sheetz (63) Woods Hole, Mass.. Registered Nurse. Master's degree.

David Schermerhorn (80) Deer Harbor, Washington State. Commercial film producer.

*UK

Alex Harrison (32) London. Solidarity worker.

Theresa McDermott (43) Edinburgh, Scotland. Logistics worker.

Denis Healey (55). Captain.

*IRELAND

Caoimhe Butterly 31. Human rights activist.

Mairead Maguire 66 Belfast. Nobel Peace Laureate.

Mark Daly 37 Kerry. Senator.

Shane Dillon (36) Dublin. Seafarer.

Fiachra O Luain 28 Carndonagh.

*HOLLAND

Annekarijn de Jong (29) Weesp. PhD researcher.

*BELGIUM

Griet M.A. Deknopper (Margarita) (32) Halle. Solidarity activist and teacher trainer.

Inge Neefs (26) Ghent. Studied educational sciences and holds a master in anthropology.

*GREECE

Giorgos Klontzas (39)

Agios Nikolaos. Professional diver and sailor.

*POLAND/UK

Ewa Jasiewicz (31) London, UK / Otwock, Poland. Journalist, community and union organizer, and solidarity worker.

*PALESTINE

Lubna Masarwa (32).

Huwaida Arraf (33) Ramallah, Palestine / Washington D.C. / Detroit, MI. JD. American University Washington College of Law. Twice been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Nader El Sakka (58) Hamburg.

*GERMANY

Annette Groth 56 Berlin, Member of Parliament in the German Bundestag.

Inge D.M. Höger 59 Herford. Member of Parliament in the German Bundestag

Matthias Jochheim 61 Frankfurt. Physician and psychotherapist.

Prof. Dr. Norman Paech 72 Hamburg. Member of Parliament in Germany's Bundestag.



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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 03:29

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Well of course the Arab militaries cannot face the Israeli military face to face, its one of the best in the world and has been built up by Europe and the USA.

Israel cannot survive on its own, its heavily dependent on aid, both economic and political.

For example, did you know that there was a law passed in the USA in the 1970's that makes it illegal to refuse to do business with Israel?

Israel gets a heck of a lot of help!

Israel is probably the only country which fights against terrorists (Hamas, Hezbollah, ...) directly, it is clear that the USA and some other ones want to support this country because Israel's fight against terrorism is in fact one of the front lines of the global war against terrorism.

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

What balance of power? There is no balance of power in the Middle East, Israel dominates everyone  else.

I meant between Israel and terrorists.

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

The threat of terrorism by individuals is minuscule compared to state terrorism. For example, Israel massacred 19 civilians today, that is more than the number of Israeli's that has ever been killed by rocket attacks from Gaza. So in one day, Israel killed more people that it had ever lost by rockets coming from Gaza...

By your definition, all states in the world are "terrorist states", do you know a non-terrorist state?! As you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Israel - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Israel Over 2.7 million foreign tourists in 2009 visited Israel (about one half of Israel's population), what did happen to them? Which one was killed? What do you expect someone to do against those one who want to support terrorists?



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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 04:00

I meant between Israel and terrorists.
 
 
You mean?Confused
 
There is not such a country named as terrorism. So stop to make jokes. At least, stop to make bad jokes.
 
Israel attacked another country ship at international waters and She killed people. Even when israel have problems to protect herself, It is funny you are trying to find some root for defence.
 
In reality, what israel did is casus-belli.
 
 
Becaming anti-iran regime is not same with becoming blind.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 05:28
i wonder why the non-lethal weapon like ruber bullets or tear gas  were not used and why doing such an action out in the international water and why using such a hard method after all it was a cargo with humaniterian help and on board  there were no guns and ammounition and plenty of people from many different nations too!!so far according to thenews no weapon were found in the cargo too.
 hardly a PR for israel!! it seems they watch only israly or american tv in israelShocked and don't see what a negative propaganda they get in europe and other countriesDisapprove

does anybody knows the nationality of the victimes?


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SAMAD-AGHA


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 06:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Israel is probably the only country which fights against terrorists (Hamas, Hezbollah, ...) directly, it is clear that the USA and some other ones want to support this country because Israel's fight against terrorism is in fact one of the front lines of the global war against terrorism.


What are you talking about? The US and the West supported Israel even before Hamas or Hezbollah were founded. The first terrorist attack inside Israeli territory happened in the late 1980's, after decades of Israeli oppression.


There is no such thing as a "global war on terror", this is a made up term. Do you know how many terrorist organization the US supports/supported in the past?

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


I meant between Israel and terrorists.


There is absolutely no balance of power there, Israel has the upper hand completely. Look at the statistics, the ratio of civilians killed by Israel to Israeli civilians killed by terrorists is easily more than 10:1.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


By your definition, all states in the world are "terrorist states", do you know a non-terrorist state?! As you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Israel - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Israel Over 2.7 million foreign tourists in 2009 visited Israel (about one half of Israel's population), what did happen to them? Which one was killed? What do you expect someone to do against those one who want to support terrorists?



Yes, I do believe that most governments in the world are terror states.


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 06:11

Originally posted by Mortaza

There is not such a country named as terrorism. So stop to make jokes. At least, stop to make bad jokes.

Terrorists live in the different countries, unfortunately this is a fact in the Middle east.

Originally posted by

Israel attacked another country ship at international waters and She killed people. Even when israel have problems to protect herself, It is funny you are trying to find some root for defence.

What were those ships doing there? They were going on a voyage to see the beauties of Mediterranean or they wanted to bring aid to the region which is ruled by the terrorist group of Hamas?! I don't know why some people not only don't try to solve the problem of terrorism but add fuel to this fire!

Becaming anti-iran regime is not same with becoming blind.

It totally doesn't relate to the regime of Iran.



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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 06:33

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

What are you talking about? The US and the West supported Israel even before Hamas or Hezbollah were founded. The first terrorist attack inside Israeli territory happened in the late 1980's, after decades of Israeli oppression.

You just don't know, read it: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+before+2000/Which+Came+First-+Terrorism+or+Occupation+-+Major.htm - http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+before+2000/Which+Came+First-+Terrorism+or+Occupation+-+Major.htm

Major Arab Terrorist Attacks against Israelis Prior to the 1967 Six-Day War

Jan 1, 1952 - Seven armed terrorists attacked and killed a nineteen year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael, in Jerusalem.

Apr 14, 1953 - Terrorists tried for the first time to infiltrate Israel by sea, but were unsuccessful. One of the boats was intercepted and the other boat escaped.

June 7, 1953 - A youngster was killed and three others were wounded, in shooting attacks on residential areas in southern Jerusalem.

June 9, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a farming community near Lod, and killed one of the residents. The terrorists threw hand grenades and sprayed gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of terrorists attacked a house in the town of Hadera. This occurred a day after Israel and Jordan signed an agreement, with UN mediation, in which Jordan undertook to prevent terrorists from crossing into Israel from Jordanian territory.

June 10, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrating from Jordan destroyed a house in the farming village of Mishmar Ayalon.

June 11, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in Kfar Hess, and shot them to death.

Sept 2, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and reached the neighborhood of Katamon, in the heart of Jerusalem. They threw hand grenades in all directions. Miraculously, no one was hurt.

Mar 17, 1954 - Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of Maale Akrabim in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers. The terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one. Eleven passengers were murdered. Survivors recounted how the murderers spat on the bodies and abused them. The terrorists could clearly be traced back to the Jordanian border, some 20 km from the site of the terrorist attack.

Jan 2, 1955 - Terrorists killed two hikers in the Judean Desert.

Mar 24, 1955 - Terrorists threw hand grenades and opened fire on a crowd at a wedding in the farming community of Patish, in the Negev. A young woman was killed, and eighteen people were wounded in the attack.

Apr 7, 1956 - A resident of Ashkelon was killed in her home, when terrorists threw three hand grenades into her house.
Two members of Kibbutz Givat Chaim were killed, when terrorists opened fire on their car, on the road from Plugot Junction to Mishmar Hanegev.
There were further hand grenade and shooting attacks on homes and cars, in areas such as Nitzanim and Ketziot. One person was killed and three others wounded.

Apr 11, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a synagogue full of children and teenagers, in the farming community of Shafrir. Three children and a youth worker were killed on the spot, and five were wounded, including three seriously.

Apr 29, 1956 - Egyptians killed Roi Rotenberg, 21 years of age, from Nahal Oz.

Sept 12, 1956 - Terrorists killed three Druze guards at Ein Ofarim, in the Arava region.

Sept 23, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire from a Jordanian position, and killed four archaeologists, and wounded sixteen others, near Kibbutz Ramat Rachel.

Sept 24, 1956 - Terrorists killed a girl in the fields of the farming community of Aminadav, near Jerusalem.

Oct 4, 1956 - Five Israeli workers were killed in Sdom.

Oct 9, 1956 - Two workers were killed in an orchard of the youth village, Neve Hadassah, in the Sharon region.

Nov 8, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a train, attacked cars and blew up wells, in the North and Center of Israel. Six Israelis were wounded.

Feb 18, 1957 - Two civilians were killed by terrorist landmines, next to Nir Yitzhak, on the southern border of the Gaza Strip.

Mar 8, 1957 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Beit Govrin was killed by terrorists in a field near the Kibbutz.

Apr 16, 1957 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.

May 20, 1957 - A terrorist opened fire on a truck in the Arava region, killing a worker.

May 29, 1957 - A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when the vehicle struck a landmine, next to Kibbutz Kisufim.

June 23, 1957 - Israelis were wounded by landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.

Aug 23, 1957 - Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were killed near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.

Dec 21, 1957 - A member of Kibbutz Gadot was killed in the Kibbutz fields.

Feb 11, 1958 - Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov who was on his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.

Apr 5, 1958 - Terrorists lying in ambush shot and killed two people near Tel Lachish.

Apr 22, 1958 - Jordanian soldiers shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.

May 26, 1958 - Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian attack on Mt. Scopus, in Jerusalem.

Nov 17, 1958 - Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attache in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.

Dec 3, 1958- A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery attack that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.

Jan 23, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot Habashan was killed.

Feb 1, 1959 - Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near Moshav Zavdiel.

Apr 15, 1959 - A guard was killed at Kibbutz Ramat Rahel.

Apr 27, 1959 - Two hikers were shot at close range and killed near Massada.

Sept 6, 1959 - Bedouin terrorists killed a paratroop reconnaissance officer near Nitzana.

Sept 8, 1959 - Bedouins opened fire on an army bivouac in the Negev, killing an IDF officer, Captain Yair Peled.

Oct 3, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Heftziba was killed near Kibbutz Yad Hana.

Apr 26, 1960 - Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.

Apr 12, 1962 - Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.

Sept 30, 1962 - Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.

Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.

May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.

June 1, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.

July 5, 1965 - A Fatah cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.

Aug 26, 1965 - A waterline was sabotaged at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.

Sept 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.

Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were miraculously unhurt.

Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean Valley.

May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.

July 13, 1966 - Two soldiers and a civilian were killed near Almagor, when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.

July 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.

July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.

Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.



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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 07:05
Notes a distinct lack of the Jewish Israeli Terroritst attacks.

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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 07:13
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

What were those ships doing there? They were going on a voyage to see the beauties of Mediterranean or they wanted to bring aid to the region which is ruled by the terrorist group of Hamas?! I don't know why some people not only don't try to solve the problem of terrorism but add fuel to this fire!


Those ships were bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza, which has been besieged for over three years now.


Hamas was a democratically elected government, and every government has the right to have armed forces.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Becaming anti-iran regime is not same with becoming blind.

It totally doesn't relate to the regime of Iran.



Cyrus, this very much has to do with the Iranian regime. In Tehran and other big cities, it has become fashionable for those opposed to the Iranian regime/Islam to be very pro-Israel and anti-Arab, simply because Israel is against the Iranian regime and Iranians blame Arabs for all of their problems.

-----------------------------

Also, I find it amusing that you post all the incidents involving Palestinians, yet you conveniently left out every single Israeli act of aggression and oppression.

Remember that everything the Palestinians do is in fact in retaliation of an action first committed by Israel.

WHY ARE YOU USING AN ISRAELI SOURCE TO TALK ABOUT PALESTINIAN AGGRESSION? HAVEN'T YOU EVER HEARD OF BIASED SOURCES?

You providing us with a link to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs to talk about Palestinian aggression is like someone providing a link to a Nazi website talking about how Jews are bad.

-------------------------------

Also, YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN PROVEN WRONG.

You claim that the ships carried terrorists, this is not true.

You claim that the ships carried aid for Hamas, this is also not true.

So the point of the matter is, you are wrong, why are you still trying to defend your position?

These peaceful vessels carrying humanitarian aid to a region besieged ILLEGALLY were intercepted in INTERNATIONAL waters.

------------------------------

Updates:

Several Americans are being held illegal by Israel after being kidnapped in international waters...UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT IS DOING NOTHING ABOUT THIS!

Irish government demands that Israel release its citizens.

Norway calls for arms sanctions against Israel.

Egypt has temporarily opened its borders with Gaza.


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 07:26
It is historically unprofessional to use the term 'bias'

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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 09:33

Those ships were bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza, which has been besieged for over three years now.

People of Gaza should understand that they should also work to gain money, of course they still expect that those Arab billionaires, like Munib Al-masri, still come and built some other ultra-luxury residential complexes for them, like Al Mashtal complex:



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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:26
Hmmm interesting. Is it still there or has it been destroyed byt the Israelis yet?

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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:33
Footage

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10206351.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10206351.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195997.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195997.stm


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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:45

Terrorists live in the different countries, unfortunately this is a fact in the Middle east.

Include israel. Difference is that when terrorist are jailed at another country, In israel they are choosen for parliment.
 
 
What were those ships doing there?
 
who are you asking? Those ships were not inside of israel water. So It is not israel job to interrogate or attack them.
 
 
They were going on a voyage to see the beauties of Mediterranean or they wanted to bring aid to the region which is ruled by the terrorist group of Hamas?!
 
My friend they are not helping hamas but even a terrorist deserve humanatarian aids. By the way, I am not aware of the fact that all people at gaza is terrorist.
 
By the way, isnt it israel which supported hamas at first?
 
I don't know why some people not only don't try to solve the problem of terrorism but add fuel to this fire
 
are you talking about yourself?
 
Terrorist is israel not some civilians at a ship which is not even at the israel waters.. You are funny, accusing sheeps and supporting wolf.
 

It totally doesn't relate to the regime of Iran.

I know it. I hope you understand it too. You are as bad as iranian regime. Both protect terrorists..
 
 


Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:47
People of Gaza should understand that they should also work to gain money,
 
are you joking?


Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 11:25
The Flotilla was a mix of activists and terrorists. Here is Israels problem--The terrorists are better at PR than them. They mix with innocents cause the Israelis to over react--and innocents are killed however it was the terrorists that brought the innocents in harms way.
 
Publicity to gain sympathy

This is a critical component of terrorism, because it satisfies one of the Principles of Terrorism, which shall be discussed in a later section. The ability to gain sympathy helps the terrorist to create support locally and abroad. Without public sympathy, it is extremely difficult to progress from the terrorism stage to the guerilla warfare stage. Likewise, without international sympathy, the acquirement of arms, etc. is virtually impossible.

Marighella's principle is to casue a government to over react in order to cause sympathy.
 
Why Israel wins the tactical war but loses the PR war (The real battlefield) is beyond me.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 12:24

Cyrus, this very much has to do with the Iranian regime. In Tehran and other big cities, it has become fashionable for those opposed to the Iranian regime/Islam to be very pro-Israel and anti-Arab, simply because Israel is against the Iranian regime and Iranians blame Arabs for all of their problems.

I don't think to be so, I remember that during Iran's anti-government demonstrators, one of the main slogans was "Iran shode Felestin, Mardom cher neshastin?" ("Iran has become Palestine, Why are you quiet people?"), so the majority of Iranians are really are too much brainwashed about Israel and Palestine.
 
If you read my posts in this forum since 2004, then you will find that I have also criticized Israel, for example look at this thread that I had posted in 2005: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5066 - Israel’s Big Crime!
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 14:09
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

Footage

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10206351.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10206351.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195997.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195997.stm


Yes, its strange that Israel releases only part of the footage and absolutely none of the footage showing the deaths of civilians. What does Israel have to hide? Oh yea...murder.

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

The Flotilla was a mix of activists and terrorists.


Really? THERE WERE NO TERRORISTS ON THE FLOTILLA.

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus


Here is Israels problem--The terrorists are better at PR than them. They mix with innocents cause the Israelis to over react--and innocents are killed however it was the terrorists that brought the innocents in harms way.


The terrorists are better at PR than the ISRAELI WORLD WIDE PROPAGANDA MACHINE? LOL

Also, once again, there were no terrorists on board, it was a peaceful humanitarian aid mission.
 
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus


Publicity to gain sympathy


Israel = murder without consequences.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I don't think to be so, I remember that during Iran's anti-government demonstrators, one of the main slogans was "Iran shode Felestin, Mardom cher neshastin?" ("Iran has become Palestine, Why are you quiet people?"), so the majority of Iranians are really are too much brainwashed about Israel and Palestine.


They also chanted "Marg bar Taleban, che Kabul che Tehran" ("Death to the Taleban, whether in Kabul or in Tehran").

The protesters were chanting that to show the Mullah regime's hypocrisy and the people who support them.

But your support isnt based on facts, or the history of the situation, its based on whats fashionable in Tehran.

Like I told you before, you made two false claims regarding this incident, both of which have proved wrong, yet you still defend Israel.


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 14:11
Israel is again being placed in a no win situation! That is, if the ships (which I understand were brought to an Israeli port), are found to have munitions aboard, then the Israeli's will be accused of lying! If none are found then they will be continually accursed as "pirates!", etc.!

It is funny no one has posted the video showing the Israeli's being stabbed and beaten!

But, it is not my job to do so!

Regards,

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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 14:17
Originally posted by opuslola

Israel is again being placed in a no win situation! That is, if the ships (which I understand were brought to an Israeli port), are found to have munitions aboard, then the Israeli's will be accused of lying! If none are found then they will be continually accursed as "pirates!", etc.!


Israel lied, they claimed there were weapons on board, none were found. Also, no terrorists were found either.

Originally posted by opuslola


It is funny no one has posted the video showing the Israeli's being stabbed and beaten!

But, it is not my job to do so!

Regards,


They have been posted (its funny, the Israeli military posted the video they took of the passengers defending themselves against Israeli aggression, yet did not show the Israeli troops murdering the passengers. Wheres that video? Why is Israel trying to hide that video?). Also, the passengers had every right to use force to defend themselves when their ships are being attacked at night in INTERNATIONAL waters. What Israel did is called piracy, and just like ship crews have the right to defend themselves against Somali pirates, the crew of the flotilla had the right to attack the Israeli terrorists kidnapping them and hijacking their boats.


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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 14:30
So here is what happened:

1) Israel illegally sieges Gaza (been going on for three years now, but in actuality, has been in effect since 1991)

2) A flotilla filled by peace activists and humanitarian aid sets sail in an attempt to break the illegal blockade of Gaza and bring much need humanitarian aid to Gazans.

3) Israel intercepts this flotilla in international waters, illegally, attacks the vessels, illegally, sends troops to hijack the vessels, illegally, and murders crew members who try to resist the piracy.

4) There is no legality in anything Israel did, and Israel was the aggressor.

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SAID THAT SOME OF THE CREW MEMBERS MAY BE JAILED FOR ATTACKING THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS IN SELF DEFENSE...

Israel is a terrorist criminal state, this cannot stand. If any other nation did this they would not get away with it, why is Israel allowed to break any law it wants and still get away with it?


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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:10
As normally quite critical of Israel as I am I fear I must say somthing for them.

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

So here is what happened:

1) Israel illegally sieges Gaza (been going on for three years now, but in actuality, has been in effect since 1991)


2) A flotilla filled by peace activists and humanitarian aid sets sail in an attempt to break the illegal blockade of Gaza and bring much need humanitarian aid to Gazans.


3) Israel intercepts this flotilla in international waters, illegally, attacks the vessels, illegally, sends troops to hijack the vessels, illegally, and murders crew members who try to resist the piracy.


4) There is no legality in anything Israel did, and Israel was the aggressor.

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SAID THAT SOME OF THE CREW MEMBERS MAY BE JAILED FOR ATTACKING THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS IN SELF DEFENSE...

Israel is a terrorist criminal state, If any other nation did this they would not get away with it, why is Israel allowed to break any law it wants and still get away with it?


1. Cant fault you there

2. So they were running a military blockade, something that they knew about and has been highly publicised for the past 3 years, its no secret. So they knew exactly what they were doing, there was no surprise in this.

3. See running the blockade statement above. Yet when Royal Navy does this to ships in the Indian Ocean and the Carribean, because there are pirates its ok, and not piracy then?

4. Doesnt appear so from video footage of mob bludgeoning commandos with pipes as they land from helicopters. That called ganking. Looks more like self defence on the Israeli's part.

Yeah Israel is a terrorist state, its former premiers were terrorists and have been war criminals, and blatanlty too, not like Mr Blair where its a matter of semantics. But they do get away with it, just like everyone else. Hurrah for Westphailia!




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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:29
Also stopping and boarding the ships in international warters isnt illegal. The UN  Charter on the Law of the Sea permits it if the ships are suspected of carrying weapons.  If the Israeli's suspect the ships of carrying contraband then they can board them and use any appropriate force.

They boarded, got mobbed, and opened fire.

Inappropriate use, overkill. Dash bad show.


But before anybody says anything else I ask you one thing. If you had found yourself landing on that ship and watched the celeritous descent of a pipe towards your face, what would you have done?

It is afterall so very easy to criticse when one is so very far away, not involved and has the benefit of hindsight.


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:31
"Why is Israel allowed to break any law it wantss and still get away with it?", TGS wrote.

Well TGS, the Israeli's are smarter than are you, and they have nukes!

But, you overlook a few simple things, as always! You know nothing about marine law, nor sovereign rights! Which nation in the world has legal powers over Gaza? , for example. Which nation has had control over shipments into the area for many years?

Which nation has issued a demand and warning to all shippers to deliver supplies in the Israeli port for inspection? Which nation delivers these supplies to Gaza?

Come on TGS, these are not hard questions!

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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:32
This is what I said:

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

So here is what happened:

1) Israel illegally sieges Gaza (been going on for three years now, but in actuality, has been in effect since 1991)


2) A flotilla filled by peace activists and humanitarian aid sets sail in an attempt to break the illegal blockade of Gaza and bring much need humanitarian aid to Gazans.


3) Israel intercepts this flotilla in international waters, illegally, attacks the vessels, illegally, sends troops to hijack the vessels, illegally, and murders crew members who try to resist the piracy.


4) There is no legality in anything Israel did, and Israel was the aggressor.

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SAID THAT SOME OF THE CREW MEMBERS MAY BE JAILED FOR ATTACKING THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS IN SELF DEFENSE...

Israel is a terrorist criminal state, If any other nation did this they would not get away with it, why is Israel allowed to break any law it wants and still get away with it?


These are DreamWeaver's responses:

Originally posted by DreamWeaver


2. So they were running a military blockade, something that they knew about and has been highly publicised for the past 3 years, its no secret. So they knew exactly what they were doing, there was no surprise in this.


The UN charter allows for naval blockades, but the effect of the blockade on civilians must be proportionate to the effect on the military element for the blockade to be legally enforceable. (source: BBC)

The blockade is illegal, and has been illegal from the beginning, and this is acknowledged by the UN and it has been demanded that Israel lift the blockade, which it will not do. Because of the illegality of the blockade, Israel cannot enforce it.


United Nations

On January 24, 2008, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council - United Nations Human Rights Council released a statement calling for Israel to lift its siege on the Gaza Strip, allow the continued supply of food, fuel, and medicine, and reopen border crossings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#cite_note-55 - [56] According to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Post - Jerusalem Post , this was the 15th time in less than two years the council condemned Israel for its human rights record regarding the Palestinian territories. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#cite_note-UNHRCslams-56 - [57] The proceedings were boycotted by Israel and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States - United States .

On December 15, 2008, following a statement in which he described the embargo on Gaza a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_humanity - crime against humanity , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Special_Rapporteur - United Nations Special Rapporteur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_A._Falk - Richard A. Falk was prevented from entering the Palestinian territories by Israeli authorities and expelled from the region. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#cite_note-Falk-57 - [58] The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel - Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations Itzhak Levanon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#cite_note-58 - [59] said that the mandate of the Special Rapporteur was "hopelessly unbalanced," "redundant at best and malicious at worst." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#cite_note-59 - [60]

In August 2009, U.N. human rights chief Navi Pillay criticised Israel for the blockade in a 34-page report, calling it a violation of the rules of war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#cite_note-60 - [61]

In March 2010, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Secretary-General - United Nations Secretary-General http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Ki-Moon - Ban Ki-Moon stated that the blockade of Gaza is causing "unacceptable suffering" and that families were living in "unacceptable, unsustainable conditions". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#cite_note-61 - [62]

A UN Fact Finding mission lead by South African Judge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone - Richard Goldstone suggested that the blockade was a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime - war crime and possibly a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_humanity - crime against humanity :

"Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their rights to access a court of law and an effective remedy, could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#cite_note-unhchr.ch-5 - [6] The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldstone_report - Goldstone report recommended that the matter be referred to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court - International Criminal Court if the situation has not improved in six months.

In May 2010, the UN http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_for_the_Coordination_of_Humanitarian_Affairs - Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs stated that the formal economy in Gaza has collapsed since the imposition of the blockade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#cite_note-ocha2010-05-25-62 - [63]



Originally posted by DreamWeaver


3. See running the blockade statement above. Yet when Royal Navy does this to ships in the Indian Ocean and the Carribean, because there are pirates its ok, and not piracy then?


See my statements regarding running the blockade above.

As for your comparison with what the Royal Navy does, its none applicable here because piracy is illegal. The flotilla was not involved in piracy and was in international waters.

The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought. (Source: BBC)

The vessels was not carrying any weapons, and Israel did not get the permission of the respective nations to board their vessels.

Originally posted by DreamWeaver


4. Doesnt appear so from video footage of mob bludgeoning commandos with pipes as they land from helicopters. That called ganking. Looks more like self defence on the Israeli's part.


The Israeli soldiers (pirates in this case) were attempting to board and hijack the boats, and thus kidnap the crews. This all happened at night. The crews had every right to attack those attempting to board their ships.

Those boarding the ships were the aggressors, and those defending the ship were...obviously the defenders. The soldiers then murdered those crew members trying to defend their vessels from being attacked and forcibly captured. The soldiers cannot claim self defense.





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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:38
If you are going to quote the BBC

A ship trying to breach a blockade can be boarded and force may be used to stop it as long as it is "necessary and proportionate"


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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:39
And as I said above

But before anybody says anything else I ask you one thing. If you had found yourself landing on that ship and watched the celeritous descent of a pipe towards your face, what would you have done?

It is afterall so very easy to criticse when one is so very far away, not involved and has the benefit of hindsight.




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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:40
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

If you are going to quote the BBC

A ship trying to breach a blockade can be boarded and force may be used to stop it as long as it is "necessary and proportionate"


Yes, but as I mentioned above, the blockade was not legal, therefor not enforceable. If the blockade were legal, then yes, ships trying to run it can be boarded, as the BBC says, but as the BBC stated, THIS IS ONLY TRUE IF THE BLOCKADE IS LEGAL, which its not.

Originally posted by DreamWeaver



But before anybody says anything else I ask you one thing. If you had found yourself landing on that ship and watched the celeritous descent of a pipe towards your face, what would you have done?

It is afterall so very easy to criticse when one is so very far away, not involved and has the benefit of hindsight.


If I was an Israeli soldier, my mentality would be different, I'd probably be an ultra nationalist believing that I am part of the chosen people and what ever I and my government do is justified.

However, if I was a soldier trying to board a vessel and the vessels crew members were defending themselves by attacking me, if the situation got dire for me, I would probably shoot as well, but I could not claim self defense because I was the aggressor, it simply wouldnt make sense. I was the one that boarded a ship I was not supposed to and I was the one that initiated the aggressive act.

My point being, if I was never forcing my way onto the boat, I would never have had a need to kill anyone.

In this case, the Israeli troops, the aggressors, attempted to forcibly capture the vessel, therefore prompting the crew to resist, resulting in the Israeli troops to shoot them and kill them. So as you see, the blood is still on the hands of the Israeli troops.




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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:44
A UN Fact Finding mission lead by South African Judge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone - Richard Goldstone suggested that the blockade was a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime - war crime and possibly a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_humanity - crime against humanity :


Suggested I believe is the word here.

Please quote UN Resolution stating the blockades illegality.


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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:45
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba



If I was an Israeli soldier, my mentality would be different, I'd probably be an ultra nationalist believing that I am part of the chosen people and what ever I and my government do is justified.

However, if I was a soldier trying to board a vessel and the vessels crew members were defending themselves by attacking me, if the situation got dire for me, I would probably shoot as well, but I could not claim self defense because I was the aggressor, it simply wouldnt make sense. I was the one that boarded a ship I was not supposed to and I was the one that initiated the aggressive act.




Couldn't you? How very high minded and selfless of you.


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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:50
Sorry TGS though I actually rather agree with you over the Gaza Blockade, Im now playing devils advocate.

(insert Ssrael related devil pun)


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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:50
Originally posted by DreamWeaver



Couldn't you? How very high minded and selfless of you.


Well thats how a sensible person would think. Your argument, as the devils advocate, is that if a Somali pirate attempts to board a vessel, the crew resist, and those pirates shoot and kill them, the Somali pirates acted in self defense and therefore are right for what they did? Is that what you are trying to argue?

The Israeli position on this is truly indefensible. For those that really do support Israel in this situation, I am 100% positive that if Israeli was replaced by Somali or Iranian or Palestinian, their opinion would be different.


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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:52
If I attack a man with a gun and he shoots me.
Concious descision, fight back or not, possibility of getting shot or not.



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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:56
Is this the only time this has happened in 3 years? Surely other vessels have been borded and stopped and searched. Did no other crews fight back before? Why this one, and why now?

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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 17:02
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

If I attack a man with a gun and he shoots me.
Concious descision, fight back or not, possibility of getting shot or not.



There were, however, no guns involved on the side of the crew. Even according to the Israeli's, the crew resisted with things that were available to them, as the ship did not carry any weapons, such as poles and chairs.

Originally posted by DreamWeaver

Is this the only time this has happened in 3 years? Surely other vessels have been borded and stopped and searched. Did no other crews fight back before? Why this one, and why now?


Good question, dont know.

-------------------------------

Updates:

  • Well, the propaganda machine and the Israeli lobby AIPAC have once again successfully lied to the American public. The news here is reporting that it was Israel that was attacked and the Israeli's acted in self defense. Also according to the media here, the flotilla consisted of terrorists.
  • In other news, the United States prevented any condemnation of Israel at the UN, and is attempting to prevent the UN from conducting an investigation into the incident.
  • Israel still refuses to give any information on the incident, and refuses to release the full footage of what happened, simply showing footage in the middle of Israeli troops landing on the boats and nothing more, not what happened before and not the Israeli troops shooting the civilians. According to some sources, the Israeli's fired first from boats prior to landing on the ships.

All this censorship by Israel and the attempt to prevent and international independent investigation simply confirms that there is something Israel wants to cover up.

Israeli's celebrating the attack in front of the Turkish embassay:

[TUBE]Pa3BIOtvcYQ&feature=player_embedded[/TUBE]


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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 17:43
Also, surely if the vessel was stopped, as assumedly others have been in the past otherwise its been a very long and dull blockade, the ships would have been turned around and sent back. Israeli commando's would still have borded but not gunned people down. The shooting stems from the resistance of the crew (irrespective of the Isreailis being the agressors or not and their right to be there or not). If the crew didnt resist then they knew they would merely have been turned away. Why did they therefore resist? The jig was up, they had bee caught by the Israeli's who had the ability and resources to stop the flotilla. The matter could have been resolved much more peacefully, as assumedly it has been in the past. Is it only the resistance of the crew that makes this different with a violent ending?

 

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Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 01:08
 If Turkey sends warships and the IDF attacks them, then what--That is an attack on NATO then NATO would be compelled to act--I hope Israel isn't that dumb
 
While I support Israel in general they make some bonehead PR moves


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 02:51
It seems those passengers were more dangerous than Palestinain terrorists, I think those who have been survived, should be legally tried too, read it:
 
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/terrorists_wanted_to_kill_us_wounded_7FXCYoHbNxOIosQ3KQ05mK - 'Terrorists wanted to kill us': wounded raider
 
The Israeli naval commando who was hurled from the upper deck of a Gaza-bound ship -- and later jumped into the sea to save his life -- yesterday described the harrowing ordeal of being attacked by knife-wielding "peace activists."
 
"Everyone wanted to kill us," the officer, identified only as "Captain R.," said from his hospital bed in Haifa, where he was recovering from a stab wound to the stomach and other injuries.
 
He was the commander of an elite team of marines on a mission to halt the Mavi Marmara early Monday, and the second man to rappel down a rope from his Black Hawk helicopter to the top-deck roof of the ship.
 
"One of the guys from my group was already down there, and there were a few people on him. It started off as a one-on-one fight, but then more and more people started jumping us," he said. "Dozens of people beat each soldier on the roof."
 
He said he was forced to go for his handgun.
 
"I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs. I cocked my weapon when I saw one of them coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me and threw me down to the deck below," Captain R. said.
 
"Then I felt a stabbing in the stomach. It was a knife. I got the knife out, then somehow got down to the lower deck. There was another mob of people," he told reporters.
 
By that point, more commandos had arrived on the upper deck and seized control of the ship. But the lowest deck, where he was, remained in the hands of the attackers.
 
"Another solder and I managed to get out of there and jump into the water," he said.
 
Captain R. disputed earlier accounts that only a few dozen of the 600 pro-Palestinian activists took part in the violence. He said at least three quarters of those aboard were involved, "each one with a knife in his hand."
 
He gave his account as Israeli brass tried to defend themselves in the face of bitter foreign denunciations of the raid, which killed nine passengers -- as well as sharp domestic criticism of the way what should have been a police action turned into a high-risk operation by an outnumbered team of commandos.
 
Captain R. admitted that his men were stunned by what they encountered on the top deck of the Mavi Marmara.
 
"Though [those on the boat] wanted to break the Gaza blockade, we thought we'd encounter passive resistance, perhaps verbal resistance. We didn't expect this," he said. "We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything to prevent injury."
 
Captain R. said his soldiers adhered to the values they studied, including the Israeli code known as "Purity of Arms," in which forces show humanity toward the enemy, try not to harm noncombatants, and carefully use their weaponry only to the extent it is needed.
 
A top Israeli navy commander said the lesson to be learned was to avoid being outnumbered next time.
 
"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," he told The Jerusalem Post. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future, as if it was a war."


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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 03:10
Is this the only time this has happened in 3 years? Surely other vessels have been borded and stopped and searched. Did no other crews fight back before? Why this one, and why now?
 
why not? dont they have right to protect theirself?
 
They are not as professional as israel soldiers. They tried to protect their ship with unprofessional ways and israel soldiers killed them. In reality, Israel treates as somalian pirates without their mercy.
 
It seems those passengers were more dangerous than Palestinain terrorists, I think those who have been survived, should be legally tried too, read it:
 
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/terrorists_wanted_to_kill_us_wounded_7FXCYoHbNxOIosQ3KQ05mK - 'Terrorists wanted to kill us': wounded raider
 
It is interestiong that you love to choose objective sources for your argument. Anyway, who died?
 
"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," he told The Jerusalem Post. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future, as if it was a war."
 
we boarded ships? So they are invited by people for holidays but they are ambushed? they are tried to occupy a ship. "It is not we boarded ship for holiday."
 
Anyway, It looks like israel was ready for war not civilians. (or do israel soldiers have clubs and civilians had guns?) Ironic:)
 
 


Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 04:59
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

 If Turkey sends warships and the IDF attacks them, then what--That is an attack on NATO then NATO would be compelled to act--I hope Israel isn't that dumb
 
While I support Israel in general they make some bonehead PR moves
this time it is surely one such a big bonehead PR.Smile
anyway who knows maybe their attention in the begining was only make a movie like army propaganda video-clip to show the POWER of IDF   , but every thing totaly went wrong when they met such a hard resistance and become beaten by unarmed crewShocked and finnished by disaster when they were forced to shoot their way out of the situation. one should never understimate the  unarmed pacifistsLOL
anyway now antisemites all around the world have such a nice argument to say how the semites are savage and barbarianClap and they do not respect human right and kill unarmed peopleDisapprove


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SAMAD-AGHA


Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 05:39
Is this the only time this has happened in 3 years? Surely other vessels have been borded and stopped and searched. Did no other crews fight back before? Why this one, and why now?

Yeah Mortaza they do have the right to defend themsleves, bringing a club to a gun fight though, not a great idea.  But the question still remains. This blockade has been for 3 years, why this one, why now? Have there been no incidents in the past, or is it  a case that the deaths of 30 people are more noteworthy than say the death or wounding of one or two.




(I dont intend to use Bold but the buttons on the reply page are currently jammed)


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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 06:12
Please answer these questions.
  • Hey Cyrus, do you also use Nazi German sources to study World War II.
  • Do you use Iranian regime sources regarding the 2009 uprisings/Green Movement (according to the Iranian government they were terrorists, and the Basiji's used self defense when they killed protesters).
  • Do you use Chinese government sources to study the Tienanmen Massacre?
  • Do you use Hamas sources to study the Israeli Palestinian conflict?
  • Do you use Soviet sources to study Soviet history?
Thanks.

Oh by the way, if these civilian's were terrorists, why is Israel letting them all go? Why is Israel not providing any evidence of their links to terrorism? ITS BECAUSE THEY ARENT TERRORISTS.

@ DreamWeaver: thats irrelevant, this time the Israeli's chose to kill people. The illegality of this event has no relation to past events, its still illegal, whether it happened in the past or not.


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 06:32
Actually it is relavent. If they've shot people in the past (anyone know?) and they have done it now then the two are ultimately connected, its all part of the same process, the continuation of a crime. Blinkers just dont suddenly descend on the situation.


Also if they have shot people in the past, then we are all massive hypoctris for condemning them now over this one action but not for past ones. Is the death of 30 somehow more important than the death or wounding of a few?


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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 07:08
Israel gets away with things like this all the time, and with the help of my government, the United States, it looks like its gonna get away with another crime again. Things like this have happened in the past, and there has always been outrage, but this time its different in that this was an multi-national flotilla which was carrying humanitarian aid to a blockade which after three years has become very unpopular world wide.


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 07:21
TGS, you keep referring to this "Blockade" as if it was designed to keep necessary items for health, welfare, etc., from reaching Gaza!

As you should well know, this is the furtherest thing from the truth! It is a "blockade" designed to keep arms, ammumnition, and other military supplies from reaching the terrorists within Gaza!

All humanitarian aid is allowed!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 08:58
Is this the only time this has happened in 3 years? Surely other vessels have been borded and stopped and searched. Did no other crews fight back before? Why this one, and why now?
 
Maybe, They did not foresee this blood bath.
 
Yeah Mortaza they do have the right to defend themsleves, bringing a club to a gun fight though, not a great idea.
 
Totally agree. But who can guess such gun fight.
 
But the question still remains. This blockade has been for 3 years, why this one, why now?
 
Well, my nationals are a little horny. Maybe this is reason. Infact, we should as why 3 years people just watch it? But I do not think, this is first time israel kill a civilian.
 
Difference is this time israel killed at international waters and killed turkish citizens.(a country which had some power) If murdered people were arab, still world will not just care them..
 
 
 
 
 
As you should well know, this is the furtherest thing from the truth! It is a "blockade" designed to keep arms, ammumnition, and other military supplies from reaching the terrorists within Gaza!
 
clubs and knifes? This is what they found at mavi marmara. I am sure, Hamas can find a lot of knife and club without others help..
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 09:32
Dear Mortaza, you wrote;

"As you should well know, this is the furtherest thing from the truth! It is a "blockade" designed to keep arms, ammumnition, and other military supplies from reaching the terrorists within Gaza!"

You wrote; "clubs and knifes? This is what they found at mavi marmara. I am sure, Hamas can find a lot of knife and club without others help.."

You are not being realistic! Without searching the passengers and cargo, just how would Israel know if weapons were part of the shipments!

After all, these ship "knowingly" ran from the Israeli authorities, refused to stop, and allow boarding! These are the very acts that would be used by any group trying to smuggle weapons into Gaza! They, in fact, made themselves a target, with deliberation, and fore-sight! Perhaps some of them wanted to be martyrs? Some of them, it seems, made it!

You cannot doubt that the leaders of this expedition knew of the rules and the hazards for failure to comply! But, they did it anyway!


They were either very brave of very foolish, perhaps a little of both?

When one is confronted by a pride of hungry Lions, it probably will not do much good to throw sticks and stones!

In this case both sides lost!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 10:22
You are not being realistic! Without searching the passengers and cargo, just how would Israel know if weapons were part of the shipments!
 
So you are telling me that after searching passengers Israel would let them to go ? do you realy believe it? or can you find anyone who can believe this?
 
After all, these ship "knowingly" ran from the Israeli authorities, refused to stop, and allow boarding!
 
Just guess why?
 
These are the very acts that would be used by any group trying to smuggle weapons into Gaza!
 
Yup, So maybe Israel should want a neutral part for searching. You know israel is not much trustable..
 
They, in fact, made themselves a target, with deliberation, and fore-sight!
 
They did not made themselves target, Israel soldiers targeted them..
 
Perhaps some of them wanted to be martyrs? Some of them, it seems, made it!
 
Perhaps some of israel soldiers wanted to kill them. Some of them, It seems, made it. At least, 9 of them.
 
You cannot doubt that the leaders of this expedition knew of the rules and the hazards for failure to comply! But, they did it anyway!
 
Indeed. So You should ask yourself why?
 
When one is confronted by a pride of hungry Lions, it probably will not do much good to throw sticks and stones!
 
So because, Israel is hungry lion, People should bow her like a sheep?
 
Maybe, some people have some honor to refuse bowing a hungry lion or an evil wolf? Maybe that was israel mistake, choosing to force for every problem.
 
In this case both sides lost!
 
Yep but I think a third side gain a little.(Maybe not much) Anyway, aim of flotilla is to help that third side.
 

 


 
 
 


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 10:38
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Please answer these questions.
  • Hey Cyrus, do you also use Nazi German sources to study World War II.
  • Do you use Iranian regime sources regarding the 2009 uprisings/Green Movement (according to the Iranian government they were terrorists, and the Basiji's used self defense when they killed protesters).
  • Do you use Chinese government sources to study the Tienanmen Massacre?
  • Do you use Hamas sources to study the Israeli Palestinian conflict?
  • Do you use Soviet sources to study Soviet history?
Thanks.
I don't know what you exactly mean, it is clear that the primary sources are better, do you expect that I use anti-X sources to study X history? or should I use unrelated sources?! For example we can use Afghan sources to study Aztec history!!!


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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 10:55
What I belive TGS is getting at that you can not complain about using Israeli Sources to study or understand Israel. Just as it is relavent to use sources from Nazi Germany to study the Nazis. This is of course in addition to using say non Israeli sources to study Israel and non Nazi Germany Source for Nazi Germany. One must use, study, examine and weigh all sources relavent to the topic and argument, irrespective of who made them. Everyone needs to be considered. Some are better than others, but if TGS decides to use Israeli material he is entirely within his right to do so. All must be bornewith a pinch of salt though.



You are not being realistic! Without searching the passengers and cargo, just how would Israel know if weapons were part of the shipments!
 
So you are telling me that after searching passengers Israel would let them to go ? do you realy believe it? or can you find anyone who can believe this?
 

Yes.....thats how it works....if they arent carrying contraband then they get let go and canproceed on their way. Its a rather simple concept.



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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 11:40
As DW said;
"Yes.....thats how it works....if they arent carrying contraband then they get let go and canproceed on their way. Its a rather simple concept."

Ditto for me! It is a part of the KISS system . But, if upon a close inspection of the passengers and their papers, it is determined that a pax is also a terrorist member, then I might expect Israel to either expell them or keep them prisoner!

Keep It Simple Stupid!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 15:48
Originally posted by opuslola

TGS, you keep referring to this "Blockade" as if it was designed to keep necessary items for health, welfare, etc., from reaching Gaza!

As you should well know, this is the furtherest thing from the truth! It is a "blockade" designed to keep arms, ammumnition, and other military supplies from reaching the terrorists within Gaza!

All humanitarian aid is allowed!


Oh you again? Well since you are uninformed (as usual) the blockade includes food, medical supplies, building materials, etc...  it is not limited to weapons. For example, pasta was banned from entering Gaza until John Kerry found out and urged the Israeli's to let pasta in.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I don't know what you exactly mean, it is clear that the primary sources are better, do you expect that I use anti-X sources to study X history? or should I use unrelated sources?! For example we can use Afghan sources to study Aztec history!!!


You do know that soldiers have to say whatever they are told while serving in the military right? Furthermore, my point is that you wouldnt take the word of a Nazi regarding the events of WWII would you (for example, if a Nazi said that the Jews were killed because they were terrorists)? Of course not, so why would you use an Israeli source as a means to understand what happened during the hijacking of the ship?

AND ONCE AGAIN, NO ONE ON BOARD THE BOATS WAS A TERRORIST AND THERE WERE NO WEAPONS ON THE BOAT. ISRAEL IS LYING ABOUT BOTH OF THESE IN ORDER TO GET AWAY WITH YET ANOTHER CRIME.

----------------------------------

Israel routinely prevents humanitarian aid from going into Gaza. The UN estimates that what is allowed to get into Gaza is only around 60% of demand and that peoples livelihoods (farmers and fishermen specifically) have been ruined by the blockade.

Most Gazans, as a result of Israeli war crimes, are destitute and do not know where their next meal is coming from.

Gaza has been turned into one big GHETTO (remember how the Nazi's also put people into ghettos?).


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 22:46
Yes.....thats how it works....if they arent carrying contraband then they get let go and canproceed on their way. Its a rather simple concept.
 
 
Guys be serious. DeadYou are making argument unnecessary and absurd.(If this is not your aim just give up)
 
 If Israel gave permission for humanatirian help, We will not see this flotilla(do you think, this flotilla is for arming Hamas? Weird, because ısrael couldnt find weapon).  Or why do you think this flotilla tried to went gaza? Are you aware of the situation of gaza? Or we will begin from beginning of gaza wars or Adam? are you living in this world?
 
Anyway, what type of weapon israel find? clubs and knifes(most probably used for eating)? Wow. Lucky israel, If They did not occupy this ship,Hamas would destroy israel with clubs and knifes.(Cutting and eating israel?)
 
 
 
their papers, it is determined that a pax is also a terrorist member, then I might expect Israel to either expell them or keep them prisoner!
 
So tell me why didnt israel keep them prisoner. why did israel censored all happened at ship(like destroying camera of reporter.
 
Or why israel refused a just court? Let me tell you, because they know they are guilty and they know they are not a country but a terrorist group.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 23:37
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

You do know that soldiers have to say whatever they are told while serving in the military right? Furthermore, my point is that you wouldnt take the word of a Nazi regarding the events of WWII would you (for example, if a Nazi said that the Jews were killed because they were terrorists)? Of course not, so why would you use an Israeli source as a means to understand what happened during the hijacking of the ship?

TheGreatSimba, the most important thing is INTENTION, you ask someone "Why did you kill him?" and he simply replies "Because he was a Jew", but another one who is himself wounded by him, explain the incident in details and says he just wanted to defend himself and never intended to kill him, do you really think there is no differences between these two?
TheGreatSimba, you are exactly like those brainwashed Iranians that I meet everyday in this country!


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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 01:46

Gaza is simply one ginormous humanitarian catastrophe. I find it simply amazing that there are still guys who fall - whether innocently or otherwise - for the Israeli version of events and support the Israeli action.

Any dangerous weapon in the hand of any activist in any picture was inserted after the event digitally by the Israeli army to fool folks. Look properly again at that colossal knife in the picture on page 1 of this thread again. It was obviously a late insertion.
 
BTW, in that picture, was our turbaned Arab friend about to kill an Israeli commando, with about 10 guys with cameras coolly, calmly waiting to snap his picture in the act? Wow!!! He must be a very brave warrior indeed, not to mention a very glamorous one. Despite his rather innocent looking face.
 
No, he doesn't look like a seasoned killer. Definitely not. Too amateurish.
 
The most any activist had was maybe pieces of wood or metal, a baton or two at best. What else do you expect when a bunch of crazed but professionally trained fighters jump in on you and start shooting wildly in every direction? Even while they were still up there in their helicopters? You expect them to stay still and take things sitting down?
 
The activists aren't pro-Palestinian activists. They are pro-human activists. Guys like them would have gone anywhere in the world to attempt to break a Gaza-like blockade. The fact that many of them are Muslim are coincidental.
 
There were also many Christian Englishmen, Irishmen, Germans etc. among them.


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 02:03
19 years old youngest hit from his head with four bullet.(From upside.)


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 02:46

Others' views on this event:

http://talkradionews.com/2010/06/gaza-flotilla-had-ties-to-terrorist-organizations-claims-british-officer/ - Gaza Flotilla Had Ties To Terrorist Organizations, Claims British Officer

Colonel Richard Kemp, a former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, said the individuals aboard the Gaza-bound flotilla raided by the Israeli military earlier this week were “hard core activists intent on violence.”
 
“None of those deaths would have occurred had the people on that ship not attacked the Israeli soldiers,” Kemp said. “The Israeli’s intercepted a number of other ships with no similar violence.”

Added the British officer, “It’s wrong to put the blame of those deaths at the door of the Israelis. It is right to put the blame for those deaths at the door of the people who carried out the attacks on the Israeli soldiers.” Clap



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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:00

Hmmmm. Well. What else would ya expect from an Afghanistan veteran? Ask him how many innocent children, women and elderly he enjoyed killing in Kabul and Kandahar. I pray that he doesn't end up in Iran one of these days. I wouldn't wish any Iranian to be the object of his enjoyment any time in the future.

How about ya try get another view from a Baghdad veteran. I can already see in my brain what he's gonna say.
 
That massacre was carried out in international waters, nearly a hundred miles from Israeli territorial waters. There is no way Israel can justify its vile killings. It was piracy, hijacking and bloody murder. Plain and simple. There's no way anyone, whether Israeli or otherwise, can BS his way out of this.
 
You can keep clapping, Cyr. You can keep clapping until the day some Israeli commandos fly in into Iran, bomb your hometown to shreds, parachute down to the ground, drag you out of your house, and shove a gun into your mouth, or your arse.
 
Oh! You can still keep clapping that time if you like, but you can't sing, scream or shout anymore, cos your throat, or your arse, will be filled full with a bayonet at the end of an Uzi.Approve
 


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:51
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Hmmmm. Well. What else would ya expect from an Afghanistan veteran? Ask him how many innocent children, women and elderly he enjoyed killing in Kabul and Kandahar. I pray that he doesn't end up in Iran one of these days. I wouldn't wish any Iranian to be the object of his enjoyment any time in the future.

How about ya try get another view from a Baghdad veteran. I can already see in my brain what he's gonna say.
 
That massacre was carried out in international waters, nearly a hundred miles from Israeli territorial waters. There is no way Israel can justify its vile killings. It was piracy, hijacking and bloody murder. Plain and simple. There's no way anyone, whether Israeli or otherwise, can BS his way out of this.
 
You can keep clapping, Cyr. You can keep clapping until the day some Israeli commandos fly in into Iran, bomb your hometown to shreds, parachute down to the ground, drag you out of your house, and shove a gun into your mouth, or your arse.
 
You can still keep clapping that time if you like, but you can't sing or shout anymore, cos your throat, or your arse, will be filled full with a bayonet at the end of an Uzi.Approve
 
 
Really, Really? How many did the T-Ban kill- Until you gain some perspective our discussions are over.


Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:56
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba





You do know that soldiers have to say whatever they are told while serving in the military right? Furthermore, my point is that you wouldnt take the word of a Nazi regarding the events of WWII would you (for example, if a Nazi said that the Jews were killed because they were terrorists)? Of course not, so why would you use an Israeli source as a means to understand what happened during the hijacking of the ship?

 
 
Actually you would. To not do so is just bad historical practice. Amatureish etc.


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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:56
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

Really, Really? How many did the T-Ban kill- Until you gain some perspective our discussions are over.
Like you know the meaning of 'perspective'.Approve
 
You want your NATO-labelled US soldier friends to stay in Afghanistan another 20 years? Be my guest. If you want 20,000 more of them to die.
 


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:58
Originally posted by Mortaza

Yes.....thats how it works....if they arent carrying contraband then they get let go and canproceed on their way. Its a rather simple concept.
 
 
Guys be serious. DeadYou are making argument unnecessary and absurd.(If this is not your aim just give up)
 
  
 
 
 
Good ostrich impression. Keep it up. If its too simple a concept for you to understand then keep your head in the sand.


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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:58
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

Really, Really? How many did the T-Ban kill- Until you gain some perspective our discussions are over.
Like you know the meaning of 'perspective'.Approve
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:59

Igniore the above, infernal machines.



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Posted By: Night Crawler
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 04:20

Hey Shield you are mental!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I think the US Count just went over 1,000 that’s 1,000 in 9 years. Every life lost is awful. But in terms of wars that’s not a whole lot. There have been more 12,000 Taliban Killed. So 10, 20 thousand—I think not.

 

Didn't 128 Talies just surrender the other day, weren't they just kicked out of a valley in Nuristan by the ANA?

 

Back to the point the real enemy is Pakistan--They are fermenting the insurgency--Also I have read they have captured Mullah Omar, not confirmed officially.



Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 05:53
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

]Hmmmm. Well. What else would ya expect from an Afghanistan veteran? Ask him how many innocent children, women and elderly he enjoyed killing in Kabul and Kandahar. I pray that he doesn't end up in Iran one of these days. I wouldn't wish any Iranian to be the object of his enjoyment any time in the future.
 
Don't worry about Iran, hundreds people are being killed here everyday and no one knows, in fact no reporter dares to put his feet on this land, because they know what happened for other ones, like Zahara Kazemi, maybe you can just wait to see some photos and videos that people themsleves take with their cell phones in the streets.


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Posted By: Night Crawler
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 06:04
God Bless the Iranian resistance. They may be the most oppressed people in the world


Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 06:14
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Hmmmm. Well. What else would ya expect from an Afghanistan veteran? Ask him how many innocent children, women and elderly he enjoyed killing in Kabul and Kandahar. I pray that he doesn't end up in Iran one of these days. I wouldn't wish any Iranian to be the object of his enjoyment any time in the future.


 
Oh! You can still keep clapping that time if you like, but you can't sing, scream or shout anymore, cos your throat, or your arse, will be filled full with a bayonet at the end of an Uzi.Approve
 



Thats higly inappropriate SoD and very shameful of you.


Also Uzi's dont have bayonet fixtures.


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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 06:57
Added the British officer, “It’s wrong to put the blame of those deaths at the door of the Israelis. It is right to put the blame for those deaths at the door of the people who carried out the attacks on the Israeli soldiers.”
 
Attacking israel soldiers with clubs and chairs, when these soldiers are trying to occupy yourship, when they are killgin people and when you are international waters.
 
Wow. Big crime. I cannot think worse crime than this. Hmm, Infact maybe there is much worse crime than this, attacking israel soldiers when they are occupying istanbul?
 
This argument is become more more and more absurd. At least, I am having fun..
 
Good ostrich impression. Keep it up. If its too simple a concept for you to understand then keep your head in the sand.
 
Breh Breh Breh. Believe what you think is right but not reality...  I will almost believe It is aliens who blockated Gaza.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 07:02
Originally posted by Mortaza

 
Breh Breh Breh. Believe what you think is right but not reality... 
 
 
 



and the same to you.


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Posted By: Night Crawler
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 07:07
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Hmmmm. Well. What else would ya expect from an Afghanistan veteran? Ask him how many innocent children, women and elderly he enjoyed killing in Kabul and Kandahar. I pray that he doesn't end up in Iran one of these days. I wouldn't wish any Iranian to be the object of his enjoyment any time in the future.


 
Oh! You can still keep clapping that time if you like, but you can't sing, scream or shout anymore, cos your throat, or your arse, will be filled full with a bayonet at the end of an Uzi.Approve
 



Thats higly inappropriate SoD and very shameful of you.


Also Uzi's dont have bayonet fixtures.
 
Way out of line-- You have gone completley mental--You are all fur coat and no knickers
 
For some one who claims to have a bit of Military knowledge (I have just a little bit). Even I know you can't mount a bayonet on an UZI. Isn't an UZI a Israeli weapon, pretty sure, Good of you to support the Israeli economy


Posted By: Night Crawler
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 07:30
Picture of the Week

Not Arab enough?  There are no starving Muslims in Gaza,
but  there are plenty in Darfur.  So, where's their 'aid flotilla'?

While the diplomatic fallout from the botched raid on the Gaza-bound flotilla this week will not be known for some time, the mainstream media already has suffered a serious blow to its credibility. As the mainstream media told the story, a freedom-loving band of peace activists were stormed by armed Israeli commandos, resulting in the deaths of at least nine passengers.

What this narrative ignores, however, is the nature of the organizers and the mission itself. The people behind the so-called “Freedom Flotilla” have a long history with terrorists, including al Qaeda. One of the primary sponsors, the Turkish IHH, were identified by the CIA as far back as 1996 as a terrorist-tied entity with links to Iran, and French magistrate Jean-Louis Brougiere testified that IHH played an “important role” in the failed “millennium plot” in the U.S. in late 1999.

Also missing from the mainstream media coverage was that supplies from the flotilla could have been transported from an Israeli port by truck, after inspection, but that offer was flatly rejected. The reasoning was transparent, considering that flotilla spokeswoman Greta Berlin announced last week to the Agence France Press, “This mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it’s about breaking Israel’s siege.”

Most tellingly, flotilla passengers were seen on Al-Jazeera last week chanting, “Khyber, Khyber,” a favorite chant of jihadists because it recalls a battle where Mohammed’s army is said to have killed large numbers of Jews.



Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 07:35
Held up or gunned down by Malitia probably.

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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 08:11
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

TheGreatSimba, you are exactly like those brainwashed Iranians that I meet everyday in this country!


Who brainwashed me? The American media brainwashed me?LOL Come on Cyrus, dont be ridiculous. What you dont know is that there are many many westerners who do not like Israeli policies. Look at all the international condemnation against Israel's actions because of what they did.

In fact, you are just like all those Iranians who do and say things because its "fashionable".


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 08:24
Ok, guys, lets all stop for a second, and cut the crap, we're getting no where with this back and forth stuff.

Lets stick to, and review, the facts:

--------------------------
The Israeli claim:

  • Israel claims that those on board were terrorists and that the ship was carrying weapons.

The truth:

  • Israel has provided no evidence that anyone on board was a terrorist, and in fact released all the prisoners shortly after.
  • No weapons were found on board any of the ships.
  • There were people from all over the world on the board on those ships, including politicians, reporters, professors, students, a Nobel Laureate, film makers, etc... (for a full list of notable people on board as well as the countries represented, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_participants_of_the_Gaza_flotilla - here )
Question: If Israel is right, and the ships were carrying weapons and the crew were terrorists, then why not show the evidence and detain the terrorists?

------------------------
The Israeli Claim:

  • Their troops acted in self defense.
    • The Israeli account is that they gave the ships a warning, then boarded them. As they were boarding the ships, they were ambushed in an organized attack and therefore used their lethal weapons in self defense.

According to eye witness accounts from the boats:

  • The Israeli's began shooting prior to boarding the vessels, there was no organized resistance
  • Here are some of the accounts by passengers:

    • Arafat Shoukri, of the Free Gaza Movement (FGM) which helped organise the convoy, said those on board one ship had told them by telephone that Israeli helicopters had arrived.

      "Then we started to hear screams, shouting, shooting everywhere," he said. "We heard some of them shouting 'We are raising the white flag, stop shooting at us'."

      (Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10199480.stm - BBC News )


    • Zoabi and others on board do not deny there was resistance but say it was not organized.

      "The ... helicopters, the ships and gunfire created the atmosphere that people wanted to defend themselves," Zoabi said.

      (Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_raid_reconstruction - AP )

    • Bulent Yildrim:

      "Yes, we took their guns. It would be self-defence even if we fired their guns. We told our friends on board: 'We will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns'. By this decision, our friends accepted death, and we threw all the guns we took from them into the sea."

      He described how a doctor and a journalist were both shot at close range, and said another activist was shot as he was surrendering.

      "I took off my shirt and waved it, as a white flag. We thought they would stop after seeing the white flag, but they continued killing people," he said.


    • Norman Paech, a former member of Germany's Left Party, was aboard the Mavi Marmara.

      Speaking at a news conference in Berlin, he said the ship was surrounded by small Israeli assault boats on Monday morning at about 0430 local time.

      "Moments later, we heard detonations and then soldiers from helicopters above us dropped down on board.

      "The soldiers were all masked, carrying big guns and were extremely brutal."

      Mr Paech said he only saw three activists resisting.

      "They had no knives, no axes, only sticks that they used to defend themselves," he told reporters.

      But he said he could "not rule out" that others used weapons somewhere else on the boat.

    • Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin told reporters she hid with her baby in the bathroom of her cabin aboard the Mavi Marmara.

      "When the Mavi Marmara continued on its course, the harassment [from Israeli ships] turned into an attack," she said.

      "They used smoke bombs followed by gas canisters. They started to descend on to the ship with helicopters.

      "It [the violence] was extremely bad and brutal. The ship turned into a lake of blood.

    • Activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, was among six Greeks who returned home on Tuesday.

      "Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," he said.

      "They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

      Mr Gielalis said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye.

      "Of course we weren't prepared for a situation of war," he said.

    • Aris Papadokostopoulos was aboard the Free Mediterranean, travelling behind the Mavi Marmara and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists.

      "The Turkish ship [the Mavi Marmara] was in front of us... on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting," he said.

      Mr Papadokostopoulos said aboard the other boats, commandos beat activists but nobody was gravely injured.

      He said no-one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical and pharmaceutical aid.

      "Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," he said.

      (Source for the above five: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10206802.stm - BBC News )

    • "The attack on the Mavi Marmara came in an instant: they attacked it with 12 or 13 attack boats and also with commandos from helicopters. We heard the gunshots over our portable radio handsets, which we used to communicate with the Mavi Marmara, because our ship communication system was disrupted. There were three or four helicopters also used in the attack. We were told by Mavi Marmara their crew and civilians were being shot at and windows and doors were being broken by Israelis."
    • Michalis Grigoropoulos, who was at the wheel of the Free Mediterranean, said: "We were in international waters. The Israelis acted like pirates, completely out of the normal way that they conduct nautical exercises, and seized our ship. They took us hostage, pointing guns at our heads; they descended from helicopters and fired tear gas and bullets. There was absolutely nothing we could do … Those who tried to resist forming a human ring on the bridge were given electric shocks."
    • Grigoropoulos, who insisted the ship was full of humanitarian aid bound for Gaza "and nothing more", said that, once detained, the human rights activists were not allowed to contact a lawyer or the Greek embassy in Tel Aviv. "They didn't let us go to the toilet, eat or drink water and throughout they videoed us. They confiscated everything, mobile phones, laptops, cameras and personal effects. They only allowed us to keep our papers."
      (Source for the above three: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire - The Guardian )
    • As all the passengers have now been released, more statements are sure to follow.

What we do know is true:

  • Israel hijacked the boats in international waters, and the crew had every right to defend themselves against piracy.
  • A 19 year old American was killed, with 4 shots to the head and one to the chest at close range. (Source: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american-killed-gaza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848 - ABC News )
  • Israel refuses to release the full video of the incident (Israel refuses to show the video prior to boarding and the shooting of the civilians).
  • Israel is opposed to any international investigation of the incident.
  • Israel confiscated all the laptops, cameras, and memory cards that the passengers had and will not return them.

Question: If Israel did nothing wrong, then why all the secrecy and refusal for an international investigation? Surely if the soldiers shot back in self defense, Israel would want the whole world to see the video.
------------------------

Israeli claim:

  • Israel offered to transport the ships humanitarian aid to Gaza.

The truth:

  • Israel would transport the goods to Gaza after the goods were inspected for contraband. Almost everything the boats were carrying are considered contraband by Israel, such as some food stuffs, medicines, building equipment, playgrounds, books, pencils, motorized carts, etc... Therefore, most of the goods would never have reached Gaza.



-------------
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 14:46
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Who brainwashed me? The American media brainwashed me?LOL Come on Cyrus, dont be ridiculous. What you dont know is that there are many many westerners who do not like Israeli policies. Look at all the international condemnation against Israel's actions because of what they did.
 
The problem of you and those westerners who already live peacefully, is that you really don't know the meaning of "Terrorism", you can't believe there can be some people who want to kill you just because your beliefs, unfortunately you even can't understand the danger of these people, I have to say that I hate some emotional idiots who call themselves humanitarianist, I really think their brains don't work, according to this site: http://cozay.com/ - http://cozay.com/  One in six African children dies before the age of five because of extreme poverty. Does it really matter for them? No, the important thing is just that a kid in Gaza didn't eat his ice craze special coffee jelly dessert.
 
Lauren Booth, one of these human rights activists visited Gaza in the last year:
 
 
It is interesting to read it: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2008/09/lauren-booth-idiot-extraordinaire.html - http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2008/09/lauren-booth-idiot-extraordinaire.html
 
On the very same day that Lauren Booth gave this interview, Islamic Jihad held their annual Iftar breakfast for journalists south of Gaza City in a restaurant. http://74.125.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=ar%7Cen&u=http://www.paltoday.com/arabic/index.php%3Fact%3DShow%26id%3D21407&tbb=1&usg=ALkJrhjRv6-ZYEMu8_9_mP25WxjGA_palg - Palestine Today covered the event.

Note the distended stomachs, the threadbare clothing, the suffering faces, and the awful humanitarian conditions that these brave Gazans are forced to survive in, day in and day out:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/SMjsgVKaPwI/AAAAAAAAAjM/CECg5knvbZc/s1600-h/ijb4.jpg"> 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/SMjsausKh9I/AAAAAAAAAjE/_erTYiI1Tjk/s1600-h/ijb3.jpg">

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/SMjsVWwlvhI/AAAAAAAAAi8/AksCZgDegnw/s1600-h/ijb2.jpg">

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/SMjsPdHcuJI/AAAAAAAAAi0/MksVkHerozU/s1600-h/ijb1.jpg">
 
I don't know about you, but when I first saw these pictures the very first word that came to my mind was "Darfur!"
 



-------------


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 15:03
Thanks Cyrus for posting something actually relevant to this discussion!

It is obvious that the people of the Gaza Strip are the ones held hostage by both sides!

For example, just why does Egypt keep its access to the "Strip", mostly closed? Are not they all "Islamists?"

No, it because Hamas has cultivated such a world wide support network, thru its ties to Socialists, Communists, Progressives and Anarchist groups, and those who just "Hate the Jews!" Which just might describe the feelings of most members of all of the above groups?

If you are I were really smart, and if conditions tended to support the fact that a lot of "sh-t" was about to hit the fan", just whom would you like on your side? Would you like Syria?, or Jordan?, or Egypt?, or Saudi Arabia?


Or would you like a small group of people who mostly "Never loose" in battle?

Gee! A tough question to our opposition? Maybe we should give this some thought?

Times up, I will pick Israel!

As TGS posted some time ago;
"The truth is clear, the facts dont lie. Israel can lie as much as it wants (and like it always does) but eventually, like the kid that cried wolf, people wont buy it anymore."

Yes TGS, there is truth, but you and your group of "Anti-Semites", which includes all Socialist, and Progressive groups in the world, just refuse to face the "TRUTH!"

The "TRUTH" is that TGS, and his fellow travellers want to turn the Western World into another "third world" area! As was mentioned earlier, just where is the vast wealth of the Arabic World, being directed? Is it sent to the Sudan, or other starving parts of the world where there exists millions of followers of their "Faith", who are starving to death?

No, it is rather sent to those who would strap a bomb upon the breast of their own mothers to kill Christians, or Jews, etc.!

Sad, very sad!

If, indeed, I had any vote, you and those who support your views of hate and murder, and terrorism, whould be banned!

It is the "hate" that is most discusting!

By the way, just what difference do you give to the difference between an "activist" and a "terrorists?"

It seems peaceful dissent, like that of Ghandi or MLK, is more preferrable than the activities of those persons aboard that one ship?


Regards,

-------------
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 15:28
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
The problem of you and those westerners who already live peacefully, is that you really don't know the meaning of "Terrorism", you can't believe there can be some people who want to kill you just because your beliefs, unfortunately you even can't understand the danger of these people,


Lets see, 9/11, the military base shooting, the Time Square bomber, the shoe bomber, the anthrax attacks, the DC sniper... yea you're right, we dont know the dangers of terrorism. Confused

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 I have to say that I hate some emotional idiots who call themselves humanitarianist, I really think their brains don't work, according to this site: http://cozay.com/ - http://cozay.com/  One in six African children dies before the age of five because of extreme poverty. Does it really matter for them?


Yes, it does matter, to me it matters, to any one who says they are a humanitarian it does matter. No one in the world would say that African children dieing of poverty and starvation is a good thing, unless they are racist or have some backwards religious ideology.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
No, the important thing is just that a kid in Gaza didn't eat his ice craze special coffee jelly dessert.
 


Yes, that is important. Children deserve to live a happy life no matter where they are! Hey Cyrus, what if tomorrow the IRI banned pasta in Iran tomorrow, would you be ok with that?

Cyrus, like I said, lets cut the crap and lets address the facts... Why do you not want to address the facts?

--------------------------
The Israeli claim:

  • Israel claims that those on board were terrorists and that the ship was carrying weapons.

The truth:

  • Israel has provided no evidence that anyone on board was a terrorist, and in fact released all the prisoners shortly after.
  • No weapons were found on board any of the ships.
  • There were people from all over the world on the board on those ships, including politicians, reporters, professors, students, a Nobel Laureate, film makers, etc... (for a full list of notable people on board as well as the countries represented, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_participants_of_the_Gaza_flotilla - here )
Question: If Israel is right, and the ships were carrying weapons and the crew were terrorists, then why not show the evidence and detain the terrorists?

------------------------
The Israeli Claim:

  • Their troops acted in self defense.
    • The Israeli account is that they gave the ships a warning, then boarded them. As they were boarding the ships, they were ambushed in an organized attack and therefore used their lethal weapons in self defense.

According to eye witness accounts from the boats:

  • The Israeli's began shooting prior to boarding the vessels, there was no organized resistance
  • Here are some of the accounts by passengers:

    • Arafat Shoukri, of the Free Gaza Movement (FGM) which helped organise the convoy, said those on board one ship had told them by telephone that Israeli helicopters had arrived.

      "Then we started to hear screams, shouting, shooting everywhere," he said. "We heard some of them shouting 'We are raising the white flag, stop shooting at us'."

      (Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10199480.stm - BBC News )


    • Zoabi and others on board do not deny there was resistance but say it was not organized.

      "The ... helicopters, the ships and gunfire created the atmosphere that people wanted to defend themselves," Zoabi said.

      (Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_raid_reconstruction - AP )

    • Bulent Yildrim:

      "Yes, we took their guns. It would be self-defence even if we fired their guns. We told our friends on board: 'We will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns'. By this decision, our friends accepted death, and we threw all the guns we took from them into the sea."

      He described how a doctor and a journalist were both shot at close range, and said another activist was shot as he was surrendering.

      "I took off my shirt and waved it, as a white flag. We thought they would stop after seeing the white flag, but they continued killing people," he said.


    • Norman Paech, a former member of Germany's Left Party, was aboard the Mavi Marmara.

      Speaking at a news conference in Berlin, he said the ship was surrounded by small Israeli assault boats on Monday morning at about 0430 local time.

      "Moments later, we heard detonations and then soldiers from helicopters above us dropped down on board.

      "The soldiers were all masked, carrying big guns and were extremely brutal."

      Mr Paech said he only saw three activists resisting.

      "They had no knives, no axes, only sticks that they used to defend themselves," he told reporters.

      But he said he could "not rule out" that others used weapons somewhere else on the boat.

    • Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin told reporters she hid with her baby in the bathroom of her cabin aboard the Mavi Marmara.

      "When the Mavi Marmara continued on its course, the harassment [from Israeli ships] turned into an attack," she said.

      "They used smoke bombs followed by gas canisters. They started to descend on to the ship with helicopters.

      "It [the violence] was extremely bad and brutal. The ship turned into a lake of blood.

    • Activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, was among six Greeks who returned home on Tuesday.

      "Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," he said.

      "They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

      Mr Gielalis said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye.

      "Of course we weren't prepared for a situation of war," he said.

    • Aris Papadokostopoulos was aboard the Free Mediterranean, travelling behind the Mavi Marmara and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists.

      "The Turkish ship [the Mavi Marmara] was in front of us... on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting," he said.

      Mr Papadokostopoulos said aboard the other boats, commandos beat activists but nobody was gravely injured.

      He said no-one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical and pharmaceutical aid.

      "Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," he said.

      (Source for the above five: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10206802.stm - BBC News )

    • "The attack on the Mavi Marmara came in an instant: they attacked it with 12 or 13 attack boats and also with commandos from helicopters. We heard the gunshots over our portable radio handsets, which we used to communicate with the Mavi Marmara, because our ship communication system was disrupted. There were three or four helicopters also used in the attack. We were told by Mavi Marmara their crew and civilians were being shot at and windows and doors were being broken by Israelis."
    • Michalis Grigoropoulos, who was at the wheel of the Free Mediterranean, said: "We were in international waters. The Israelis acted like pirates, completely out of the normal way that they conduct nautical exercises, and seized our ship. They took us hostage, pointing guns at our heads; they descended from helicopters and fired tear gas and bullets. There was absolutely nothing we could do … Those who tried to resist forming a human ring on the bridge were given electric shocks."
    • Grigoropoulos, who insisted the ship was full of humanitarian aid bound for Gaza "and nothing more", said that, once detained, the human rights activists were not allowed to contact a lawyer or the Greek embassy in Tel Aviv. "They didn't let us go to the toilet, eat or drink water and throughout they videoed us. They confiscated everything, mobile phones, laptops, cameras and personal effects. They only allowed us to keep our papers."
      (Source for the above three: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire - The Guardian )
    • As all the passengers have now been released, more statements are sure to follow.

What we do know is true:

  • Israel hijacked the boats in international waters, and the crew had every right to defend themselves against piracy.
  • A 19 year old American was killed, with 4 shots to the head and one to the chest at close range. (Source: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american-killed-gaza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848 - ABC News )
  • Israel refuses to release the full video of the incident (Israel refuses to show the video prior to boarding and the shooting of the civilians).
  • Israel is opposed to any international investigation of the incident.
  • Israel confiscated all the laptops, cameras, and memory cards that the passengers had and will not return them.

Question: If Israel did nothing wrong, then why all the secrecy and refusal for an international investigation? Surely if the soldiers shot back in self defense, Israel would want the whole world to see the video.
------------------------

Israeli claim:

  • Israel offered to transport the ships humanitarian aid to Gaza.

The truth:

  • Israel would transport the goods to Gaza after the goods were inspected for contraband. Almost everything the boats were carrying are considered contraband by Israel, such as some food stuffs, medicines, building equipment, playgrounds, books, pencils, motorized carts, etc... Therefore, most of the goods would never have reached Gaza.



-------------
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 15:34
You , TGS, would not know the "truth" if it hit you in the face! You actually deny it with most every post you make! It is only hatred that keeps you going!

How can I tell if you are lying? When your fingers hit the keys!, and you press "enter!"

You are no different than the old National Socialists!

Shame!

-------------
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 15:41
Yea, and all the sources I post I just make up too...Oh wait, the only person whose wrong ALL THE TIME and NEVER POSTS ANY SOURCES is...yourself. Interesting huh?

Anyways, here is what a reporter has to say after being released and able to speak for the first time:

[TUBE]0cQ69oKFtVg&feature=player_embedded[/TUBE]


As soon as this attack started, I was on the top deck and within just a few minutes there were live shots being fired from above the ship, from above, from where the helicopters were. [...]

The first shots that were fired were either some sort of sound grenades, there was some tear gas that was fired as well as rubber-coated bullets. They were fired initially and the live bullets came roughly about five minutes after that.

It was evident there was definitely fire from the air, because one of the people who was killed was clearly shot from above — he was shot, the bullet targeted him at the top of his head. There was also fire coming from the sea as well. Most of the fire initially from the sea was tear gas canisters, sound grenades, but then it became live fire. After I finished filing that last report and I was going down below deck one of the passengers who was on the side of the deck holding a water hose — trying to hose off, if you will, the advancing Israeli navy — was shot in his arm by soldiers in the boats below. [...]

There is no doubt from what I saw that live ammunition was fired before any Israeli soldier was on deck. What I saw, the sequence of events that took place, there was a pool camera, so reporters took it in turns to file, so after I had done my first file, I turned around to see what was going on and there were several shots fired. In fact, one of the helicopters at the front of the ship, you could almost see the soldiers pointing their guns down through some sort of hole or compartment at the bottom side of the helicopter and firing almost indiscriminately without even looking where they were firing. And those bullets were definitely live bullets.

Kevin Ovenden of Britain, an activist on the ship that arrived in İstanbul on Thursday, also said a man who had pointed a camera at the soldiers was shot directly through the forehead with live ammunition, with the exit wound blowing away back of his skull.


A photojournalist from Today’s Zaman Kursat Bayhan who was on board an international aid convoy for Gaza said he tried to hide a flash disk which included the photos from the moments of Israeli attack on the convoy under his tongue to prevent Israeli authorities from seizing it but his effort failed during a medical examination.

Israel has confiscated some of the most important material for the investigation, namely the films, audio and photos taken by the passengers [and] journalists on board and the Mavi Marmara’s security cameras. Since yesterday, Israel has been editing these films and using them for its own PR campaign. In other words, Israel has already confiscated most of the evidence, held it from the world and tampered with it. No court in the world would [trust] it to be the one examining it.

(Source: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/?src=twr - New York Times )


British survivor of Gaza flotilla raid: 'Israelis ignored SOS calls'

Sarah Colborne said pleas for aid were dismissed by the troops who fired live rounds at the activists and handcuffed medical staff

Source, also includes video of the interview: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/british-survivor-gaza-flotilla - The Gaurdian


"At around 4.10am I woke up, went up to the deck so I could see outside and I saw small dinghies bristling with guns and Israeli military speeding towards the ship," she said.

"Helicopters then appeared and gas and sound bombs were used ... We then had the first passenger fatally injured. He was brought to the back of the deck below. He was shot in the head.

"I saw him. He was in a very bad way and he subsequently died. There were bullets flying all over the place. We asked for the Israelis to stop the attacks. We asked this in English: 'We are not resisting, please help the injured.' Instead of helping the injured the saloon remained surrounded by soldiers targeting individuals with laser sights.

"The captain announced live ammunition was being used, to stop resisting and to go downstairs. At 5.15am we started broadcasting over the Tannoy for help to evacuate the critically injured and for emergency medical assistance. We asked the Israelis to stop the attacks in English."

She said she could "see the red of the laser sights sweeping over people's heads".

"The Israeli military were firing on us," she said. "We had no arms. We made two attempts to get the message across in the written form. We wrote a sign in Hebrew saying 'SOS! Need medical assistance. People are dying. Urgent.'"


So it turns out, as more interviews are done with the crew, that Israel has been in fact lying. Their stories are consistent, and the fact that Israel refuses to release full videos of the attack from beginning to end, the fact that Israel confiscated all laptops, camera's, and memory cards, and the fact that Israel refuses an international investigation also supports the fact that Israel is, indeed, trying to cover something up.


I will post more accounts as they become available. So far, it is evident that the Israeli's were firing on the ships prior to landing.




-------------
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 20:21
Originally posted by Night Crawler

Back to the point the real enemy is Pakistan--They are fermenting the insurgency--Also I have read they have captured Mullah Omar, not confirmed officially.

Geeeee. I never knew one could ferment an insurgency. You'd need loads and loads of jute juice, and perhaps several bowls of the obligatory yeast - to add to the in-sugar-cy - to make jute wine, or maybe jute beer. I'll ask the Tal to send you a couple of barrels or something, when the stuff is ready.
 
Maybe that could help you improve your spelling a bit more.
 
Until then, it'd be a bit hard for me to take your comments seriously enough. Kid.Approve


-------------
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: Night Crawler
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 21:28
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Originally posted by Night Crawler

Back to the point the real enemy is Pakistan--They are fermenting the insurgency--Also I have read they have captured Mullah Omar, not confirmed officially.

Geeeee. I never knew one could ferment an insurgency. You'd need loads and loads of jute juice, and perhaps several bowls of the obligatory yeast - to add to the in-sugar-cy - to make jute wine, or maybe jute beer. I'll ask the Tal to send you a couple of barrels or something, when the stuff is ready.
 
Maybe that could help you improve your spelling a bit more.
 
Until then, it'd be a bit hard for me to take your comments seriously enough. Kid.Approve
 
Once again all fur coat and no knickers. I am likley older than you. Have you figured out yet how to mount a bayonet on an UZI? (as you state an another post) Or why Arabs would use an Israeli weapon--- or is your knowledge base limited to bollywood movies ( I do mean BOLLYWOOD) and B rated trash
 
Nobody really here takes you seriously you are a joke.


Posted By: Night Crawler
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 21:47
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Who brainwashed me? The American media brainwashed me?LOL Come on Cyrus, dont be ridiculous. What you dont know is that there are many many westerners who do not like Israeli policies. Look at all the international condemnation against Israel's actions because of what they did.
 

Note the distended stomachs, the threadbare clothing, the suffering faces, and the awful humanitarian conditions that these brave Gazans are forced to survive in, day in and day out:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/SMjsgVKaPwI/AAAAAAAAAjM/CECg5knvbZc/s1600-h/ijb4.jpg"> 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/SMjsausKh9I/AAAAAAAAAjE/_erTYiI1Tjk/s1600-h/ijb3.jpg">

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/SMjsVWwlvhI/AAAAAAAAAi8/AksCZgDegnw/s1600-h/ijb2.jpg">

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/SMjsPdHcuJI/AAAAAAAAAi0/MksVkHerozU/s1600-h/ijb1.jpg">
 
I don't know about you, but when I first saw these pictures the very first word that came to my mind was "Darfur!"
 

[/QUOTE]
 
 
 
If they really cared about their suffering Islam brothers--They should send a Flotilla to Darfur-- Look at the Palis sporting around in suit jackets fine plates of food while there Arab brothers suffer-- Isn't charity a pillar of Islam. Yes/No or has that Pillar been replaced with lest just muck over Israel and forgot the truly suffering.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 23:36
Ok, guys, lets all stop for a second, and cut the crap, we're getting no where with this back and forth stuff.

Lets stick to, and review, the facts:

--------------------------
The Israeli claim:

  • Israel claims that those on board were terrorists and that the ship was carrying weapons.

The truth:

  • Israel has provided no evidence that anyone on board was a terrorist, and in fact released all the prisoners shortly after.
  • No weapons were found on board any of the ships.
  • There were people from all over the world on the board on those ships, including politicians, reporters, professors, students, a Nobel Laureate, film makers, etc... (for a full list of notable people on board as well as the countries represented, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_participants_of_the_Gaza_flotilla - here )

However Israelis have no foreknowledge but it has been proved that they were right:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704025304575284081264400448.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLETopStories - Willingness to Fight Set the IHH Apart From Others on the Gaza Flotilla
 
 
ISTANBUL—The Islamic charity that was a key organizer of a flotilla intercepted by Israeli commandos this week claimed martyrdom and victory Thursday, in scenes that appeared to set it apart from other aid groups.

"We do not even have a jackknife here, but we will not let Israeli soldiers on board this ship," IHH leader Bulent Yildirim told reporters via a live video stream before the convoy set sail from Cyprus.

The nine activists known to have been killed in the clash on board the IHH-owned Mavi Marmara were members of or volunteers for the group, Mr. Yildirim said, including a joint American-Turkish citizen, 19-year-old Furkan Dogan.

"We were given the bodies of nine martyrs," Mr. Yildirim said when the bodies arrived on flights with hundreds of activists at Istanbul's airport early Thursday morning. A crowd of well-wishers chanted "God is Great" in the background.

Later, at a funeral service at Istanbul's Fatih Mosque, thousands of mourners passed the coffins of eight of the activists hand-to-hand over their heads. The service of the ninth casualty was scheduled for Friday.

The fact that all the dead belonged to the IHH, and that the group's ship was the only one in the convoy that chose to fight rather than offer passive resistance, has further focused attention on whether the group's motives were simply to provide aid to residents of the blockaded Gaza Strip.

"We know that IHH representatives have met with senior Hamas officials in Turkey, Syria and Gaza over the past three years. That is obviously of great concern to us," said State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley on Wednesday. Hamas is the Palestinian faction that controls the Gaza Strip.



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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 00:31

TheGreatSimba, I don't think that you are a fanatical Muslim, but I maybe wrong?! You yourself somehow said that you are not also a racist or an anti-Semitist, I'm really interested to know why you hate Israel? Why do you want to be Haman, not Cyrus the Great? Please don't talk about the history and the human rights, if you don't know Cyrus the Great and what he did.



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Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 01:16
it seems this event has been deeply political rather than simply humanitarin gesture from the beginging. as you mentioned about hunger . it is true that millions of people around the world have much worse condition than people in gasa do and we need to send hundred of ships every week to save the life of children which die from starvation in both asia and africa and south america.
 but the way israely reacted was too not correct. they could wait until they could have them outside intrnational water and also not shooting for kill at unarmed civilians.these are things which can favour the world opinion against israel and in favour of hamas . unfortunately israely gov has never been realy put under question for the wrong doings they have done before and it make them believe that everything they do is OK and it will finish by political isolation .
the impact of this event in europe has been very negative and hope the isrealy may wake up and see that they are not supported by world's opionion  any more and they have to respect the international laws even if their enemies don't give a sh---t about law and civilian and human right.
for those who want to help starving children in the world please google and you can see how many million children around the world are starving daily and many to deathUnhappy


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SAMAD-AGHA


Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 03:53
We're not condemning the entire Israeli people here. Make no mistake about that. There're even many Israeli citizens who disagree with the policies of their government and the way they're implemented.
 
What we're condemning is the Israeli government and the savagery and brutality of its state apparatus, particularly its armed forces.
 
That's 2 different things altogether.


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 03:58
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

A left-wing activist on board the Gaza flotilla holding a knife

 

Let's just see this ginormous knife again. Oh yes, it's definitely a fake. Digitally inserted by IDF post-event.
 
BTW, it looks strikingly similar to the dagger wielded by Jake Gyllenhaal in that Prince of Persia movie.Approve 


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 04:07
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
In any culture, at any time in history, that sort of statement, in that sort of context, would have been perfectly accepted as a sign of valour, bravery and courage. I just can't agree that having those qualities makes anybody a bad guy. Even an enemy, a chivalrous and honourable enemy, would have respected and admired them.


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:50
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Hmmmm. Well. What else would ya expect from an Afghanistan veteran? Ask him how many innocent children, women and elderly he enjoyed killing in Kabul and Kandahar. I pray that he doesn't end up in Iran one of these days. I wouldn't wish any Iranian to be the object of his enjoyment any time in the future.


 
Oh! You can still keep clapping that time if you like, but you can't sing, scream or shout anymore, cos your throat, or your arse, will be filled full with a bayonet at the end of an Uzi.Approve
 



Thats higly inappropriate SoD and very shameful of you.


Also Uzi's dont have bayonet fixtures.
 
SoD you are hereby banned from speaking about any military technology. If you don't know sub machine guns like UZIs don't have Bayonet fixtures how can you even talk about tanks? I feel dumber for even arguing with you about Armor (Tanks)
 
Why would Arabs use an UZI it is a symbol of IDF victory over them.
 
IMI Uzi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uzi_1.jpg">Uzi 1.jpg
The IMI Uzi submachine gun.
Type http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submachine_Gun - Submachine Gun , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Pistol - Machine Pistol
Place of origin   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel - Israel
Service history
Used by See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzi#Users - Users
Wars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis - Suez Crisis , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War - Six-Day War , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War - Yom Kippur War , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Civil_War - Sri Lankan Civil War , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Colonial_War - Portuguese Colonial War , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Border_War - South African Border War , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesian_Bush_War - Rhodesian Bush War
Production history
Designer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uziel_Gal - Uziel Gal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UZI#cite_note-miller2001-0 - [1]
Designed 1948
Manufacturer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Military_Industries - Israel Military Industries , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Herstal - FN Herstal , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norinco - Norinco , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyttleton_Engineering_Works - Lyttleton Engineering Works (under Vektor Arms), RH-ALAN
 
 
The Uzi was used as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_defense_weapon - personal defense weapon by rear-echelon troops, officers, artillery troops and tankers, as well as a frontline weapon by elite light infantry assault forces. The Uzi's compact size and firepower proved instrumental in clearing Syrian bunkers and Jordanian defensive positions during the 1967 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War - Six-Day War
 
Total sales of the weapon to date (end 2001) has netted IMI over $2 billion (US)
 
I did so however that some Iranians use the UZI kind of hypocritical eh?, Oh I guess not they still use American F-14s also.


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:59
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

TheGreatSimba, I don't think that you are a fanatical Muslim, but I maybe wrong?!

I'm an atheist, what are you? Whats fashionable in Tehran these days? Religion or ethnicity play no part in my ability to process the FACTS and come to a conclusion.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You yourself somehow said that you are not also a racist or an anti-Semitist, I'm really interested to know why you hate Israel?

I hate Israel the same way I hate Nazi Germany, the same way I hate the Islamic Republic, the same way I hate all evil governments.

Why do you hate Arabs so much? I know its pretty fashionable in Iran to hate Arabs...whose the real racist? If you're like most Iranians, you probably have a real deep seeded hatred of Arabs. So the question is, are you an anti-Semite (as I'm sure you know, Arabs are Semites as well)?

Racism has always been fashionable in Iran unfortunately.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Why do you want to be Haman, not Cyrus the Great? Please don't talk about the history and the human rights, if you don't know Cyrus the Great and what he did.



I dont want to be Cyrus the Great because I'm not an ultra nationalist. These nationalistic notions dont really suite my taste Cyrus, try something else. As for Haman, I dont put too much trust in what the bible says.

-------------------------------

Again, WHY DO YOU KEEP AVOIDING THE FACTS AND WHAT WE KNOW TO BE TRUE ABOUT THIS SITUATION, AND KEEP EMBRACING THIS DELUSION? If you are not here to discuss the facts, then whats the point of your contribution to this discussion? Are you discussing the Gaza Flotilla raid or are you here just to call other users anti-Semites?

And Yes SoD, that picture is a fake. Israel has put out many fake images regarding this situation and many of them have proved to be fakes.

More faked images put online by Israel:

http://ibnkafkasobiterdicta.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/gaza-flotilla-how-israels-ministry-of-foreign-affairs-fakes-photos-of-seized-weapons/

These pics Israel is putting out are either faked or were already online years before this incident.


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 06:10
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Originally posted by Night Crawler

Back to the point the real enemy is Pakistan--They are fermenting the insurgency--Also I have read they have captured Mullah Omar, not confirmed officially.

Geeeee. I never knew one could ferment an insurgency. You'd need loads and loads of jute juice, and perhaps several bowls of the obligatory yeast - to add to the in-sugar-cy - to make jute wine, or maybe jute beer. I'll ask the Tal to send you a couple of barrels or something, when the stuff is ready.
 
Maybe that could help you improve your spelling a bit more.
 
Until then, it'd be a bit hard for me to take your comments seriously enough. Kid.Approve




THAT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE! yes I am shouting.

 The use of the word ferment is perfectly acceptable in the context of the sentence, its also not a matter of spelling its grammar and syntax, all you've proceeded to do is make yourself look like a right numpty.


Is English your first language? If its not best leave off the native speakers and criticising their choice of verbage.


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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 11:05
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

I'm an atheist, what are you?
 
I have to be a Muslim.
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Whats fashionable in Tehran these days?
 
Hard struggle for life as the animals.
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Religion or ethnicity play no part in my ability to process the FACTS and come to a conclusion.
 
what about "hatred"?
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

I hate Israel the same way I hate Nazi Germany, the same way I hate the Islamic Republic, the same way I hate all evil governments.
 
I think you replied my previous question, governments are built by people, so you also hate all peoples.
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Why do you hate Arabs so much? I know its pretty fashionable in Iran to hate Arabs...whose the real racist? If you're like most Iranians, you probably have a real deep seeded hatred of Arabs. So the question is, are you an anti-Semite (as I'm sure you know, Arabs are Semites as well)?
 
I never hate Arabs or any other ethnic peoples. Some million of Iranians are themselves Arabs, but people have a natural right to defend their own identity and for this reason you can't call them racists, for example we say "Persian Gulf" is correct, not "Arabian Gulf", does it mean we hate Arabs?
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Racism has always been fashionable in Iran unfortunately.
 
Iranians are one of the most tolerant peoples, the vast ethnic diversity of Iran shows this fact.
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

I dont want to be Cyrus the Great because I'm not an ultra nationalist.
I feel sorry for you if you think Cyrus the Great was a ultra-nationalist, would you please tell us what his nationality was? He has never mentioned his ethnicity in his insciptions, unlike Darius the Great and other Persian kings who proudly said "I'm a Persian, son of a Persian".


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