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Gaza flotilla activists or terrorists?
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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gaza flotilla activists or terrorists?
    Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:45

Terrorists live in the different countries, unfortunately this is a fact in the Middle east.

Include israel. Difference is that when terrorist are jailed at another country, In israel they are choosen for parliment.
 
 
What were those ships doing there?
 
who are you asking? Those ships were not inside of israel water. So It is not israel job to interrogate or attack them.
 
 
They were going on a voyage to see the beauties of Mediterranean or they wanted to bring aid to the region which is ruled by the terrorist group of Hamas?!
 
My friend they are not helping hamas but even a terrorist deserve humanatarian aids. By the way, I am not aware of the fact that all people at gaza is terrorist.
 
By the way, isnt it israel which supported hamas at first?
 
I don't know why some people not only don't try to solve the problem of terrorism but add fuel to this fire
 
are you talking about yourself?
 
Terrorist is israel not some civilians at a ship which is not even at the israel waters.. You are funny, accusing sheeps and supporting wolf.
 

It totally doesn't relate to the regime of Iran.

I know it. I hope you understand it too. You are as bad as iranian regime. Both protect terrorists..
 
 
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:47
People of Gaza should understand that they should also work to gain money,
 
are you joking?
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Posts: 171 		  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 11:25
The Flotilla was a mix of activists and terrorists. Here is Israels problem--The terrorists are better at PR than them. They mix with innocents cause the Israelis to over react--and innocents are killed however it was the terrorists that brought the innocents in harms way.
 
Publicity to gain sympathy

This is a critical component of terrorism, because it satisfies one of the Principles of Terrorism, which shall be discussed in a later section. The ability to gain sympathy helps the terrorist to create support locally and abroad. Without public sympathy, it is extremely difficult to progress from the terrorism stage to the guerilla warfare stage. Likewise, without international sympathy, the acquirement of arms, etc. is virtually impossible.

Marighella's principle is to casue a government to over react in order to cause sympathy.
 
Why Israel wins the tactical war but loses the PR war (The real battlefield) is beyond me.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 12:24

Cyrus, this very much has to do with the Iranian regime. In Tehran and other big cities, it has become fashionable for those opposed to the Iranian regime/Islam to be very pro-Israel and anti-Arab, simply because Israel is against the Iranian regime and Iranians blame Arabs for all of their problems.

I don't think to be so, I remember that during Iran's anti-government demonstrators, one of the main slogans was "Iran shode Felestin, Mardom cher neshastin?" ("Iran has become Palestine, Why are you quiet people?"), so the majority of Iranians are really are too much brainwashed about Israel and Palestine.
 
If you read my posts in this forum since 2004, then you will find that I have also criticized Israel, for example look at this thread that I had posted in 2005: Israel’s Big Crime!
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 1152 		  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 14:09
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

Footage

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10206351.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195997.stm


Yes, its strange that Israel releases only part of the footage and absolutely none of the footage showing the deaths of civilians. What does Israel have to hide? Oh yea...murder.

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

The Flotilla was a mix of activists and terrorists.


Really? THERE WERE NO TERRORISTS ON THE FLOTILLA.

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus


Here is Israels problem--The terrorists are better at PR than them. They mix with innocents cause the Israelis to over react--and innocents are killed however it was the terrorists that brought the innocents in harms way.


The terrorists are better at PR than the ISRAELI WORLD WIDE PROPAGANDA MACHINE? LOL

Also, once again, there were no terrorists on board, it was a peaceful humanitarian aid mission.
 
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus


Publicity to gain sympathy


Israel = murder without consequences.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I don't think to be so, I remember that during Iran's anti-government demonstrators, one of the main slogans was "Iran shode Felestin, Mardom cher neshastin?" ("Iran has become Palestine, Why are you quiet people?"), so the majority of Iranians are really are too much brainwashed about Israel and Palestine.


They also chanted "Marg bar Taleban, che Kabul che Tehran" ("Death to the Taleban, whether in Kabul or in Tehran").

The protesters were chanting that to show the Mullah regime's hypocrisy and the people who support them.

But your support isnt based on facts, or the history of the situation, its based on whats fashionable in Tehran.

Like I told you before, you made two false claims regarding this incident, both of which have proved wrong, yet you still defend Israel.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 01-Jun-2010 at 14:15
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 14:11
Israel is again being placed in a no win situation! That is, if the ships (which I understand were brought to an Israeli port), are found to have munitions aboard, then the Israeli's will be accused of lying! If none are found then they will be continually accursed as "pirates!", etc.!

It is funny no one has posted the video showing the Israeli's being stabbed and beaten!

But, it is not my job to do so!

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Posts: 1152 		  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 14:17
Originally posted by opuslola

Israel is again being placed in a no win situation! That is, if the ships (which I understand were brought to an Israeli port), are found to have munitions aboard, then the Israeli's will be accused of lying! If none are found then they will be continually accursed as "pirates!", etc.!


Israel lied, they claimed there were weapons on board, none were found. Also, no terrorists were found either.

Originally posted by opuslola


It is funny no one has posted the video showing the Israeli's being stabbed and beaten!

But, it is not my job to do so!

Regards,


They have been posted (its funny, the Israeli military posted the video they took of the passengers defending themselves against Israeli aggression, yet did not show the Israeli troops murdering the passengers. Wheres that video? Why is Israel trying to hide that video?). Also, the passengers had every right to use force to defend themselves when their ships are being attacked at night in INTERNATIONAL waters. What Israel did is called piracy, and just like ship crews have the right to defend themselves against Somali pirates, the crew of the flotilla had the right to attack the Israeli terrorists kidnapping them and hijacking their boats.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 01-Jun-2010 at 14:18
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Posts: 1152 		  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 14:30
So here is what happened:

1) Israel illegally sieges Gaza (been going on for three years now, but in actuality, has been in effect since 1991)

2) A flotilla filled by peace activists and humanitarian aid sets sail in an attempt to break the illegal blockade of Gaza and bring much need humanitarian aid to Gazans.

3) Israel intercepts this flotilla in international waters, illegally, attacks the vessels, illegally, sends troops to hijack the vessels, illegally, and murders crew members who try to resist the piracy.

4) There is no legality in anything Israel did, and Israel was the aggressor.

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SAID THAT SOME OF THE CREW MEMBERS MAY BE JAILED FOR ATTACKING THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS IN SELF DEFENSE...

Israel is a terrorist criminal state, this cannot stand. If any other nation did this they would not get away with it, why is Israel allowed to break any law it wants and still get away with it?


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 01-Jun-2010 at 14:41
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:10
As normally quite critical of Israel as I am I fear I must say somthing for them.

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

So here is what happened:

1) Israel illegally sieges Gaza (been going on for three years now, but in actuality, has been in effect since 1991)


2) A flotilla filled by peace activists and humanitarian aid sets sail in an attempt to break the illegal blockade of Gaza and bring much need humanitarian aid to Gazans.


3) Israel intercepts this flotilla in international waters, illegally, attacks the vessels, illegally, sends troops to hijack the vessels, illegally, and murders crew members who try to resist the piracy.


4) There is no legality in anything Israel did, and Israel was the aggressor.

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SAID THAT SOME OF THE CREW MEMBERS MAY BE JAILED FOR ATTACKING THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS IN SELF DEFENSE...

Israel is a terrorist criminal state, If any other nation did this they would not get away with it, why is Israel allowed to break any law it wants and still get away with it?


1. Cant fault you there

2. So they were running a military blockade, something that they knew about and has been highly publicised for the past 3 years, its no secret. So they knew exactly what they were doing, there was no surprise in this.

3. See running the blockade statement above. Yet when Royal Navy does this to ships in the Indian Ocean and the Carribean, because there are pirates its ok, and not piracy then?

4. Doesnt appear so from video footage of mob bludgeoning commandos with pipes as they land from helicopters. That called ganking. Looks more like self defence on the Israeli's part.

Yeah Israel is a terrorist state, its former premiers were terrorists and have been war criminals, and blatanlty too, not like Mr Blair where its a matter of semantics. But they do get away with it, just like everyone else. Hurrah for Westphailia!




Edited by DreamWeaver - 01-Jun-2010 at 16:16
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:29
Also stopping and boarding the ships in international warters isnt illegal. The UN  Charter on the Law of the Sea permits it if the ships are suspected of carrying weapons.  If the Israeli's suspect the ships of carrying contraband then they can board them and use any appropriate force.

They boarded, got mobbed, and opened fire.

Inappropriate use, overkill. Dash bad show.


But before anybody says anything else I ask you one thing. If you had found yourself landing on that ship and watched the celeritous descent of a pipe towards your face, what would you have done?

It is afterall so very easy to criticse when one is so very far away, not involved and has the benefit of hindsight.


Edited by DreamWeaver - 01-Jun-2010 at 16:35
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:31
"Why is Israel allowed to break any law it wantss and still get away with it?", TGS wrote.

Well TGS, the Israeli's are smarter than are you, and they have nukes!

But, you overlook a few simple things, as always! You know nothing about marine law, nor sovereign rights! Which nation in the world has legal powers over Gaza? , for example. Which nation has had control over shipments into the area for many years?

Which nation has issued a demand and warning to all shippers to deliver supplies in the Israeli port for inspection? Which nation delivers these supplies to Gaza?

Come on TGS, these are not hard questions!
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Posts: 1152 		  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:32
This is what I said:

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

So here is what happened:

1) Israel illegally sieges Gaza (been going on for three years now, but in actuality, has been in effect since 1991)


2) A flotilla filled by peace activists and humanitarian aid sets sail in an attempt to break the illegal blockade of Gaza and bring much need humanitarian aid to Gazans.


3) Israel intercepts this flotilla in international waters, illegally, attacks the vessels, illegally, sends troops to hijack the vessels, illegally, and murders crew members who try to resist the piracy.


4) There is no legality in anything Israel did, and Israel was the aggressor.

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SAID THAT SOME OF THE CREW MEMBERS MAY BE JAILED FOR ATTACKING THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS IN SELF DEFENSE...

Israel is a terrorist criminal state, If any other nation did this they would not get away with it, why is Israel allowed to break any law it wants and still get away with it?


These are DreamWeaver's responses:

Originally posted by DreamWeaver


2. So they were running a military blockade, something that they knew about and has been highly publicised for the past 3 years, its no secret. So they knew exactly what they were doing, there was no surprise in this.


The UN charter allows for naval blockades, but the effect of the blockade on civilians must be proportionate to the effect on the military element for the blockade to be legally enforceable. (source: BBC)

The blockade is illegal, and has been illegal from the beginning, and this is acknowledged by the UN and it has been demanded that Israel lift the blockade, which it will not do. Because of the illegality of the blockade, Israel cannot enforce it.


United Nations

On January 24, 2008, the United Nations Human Rights Council released a statement calling for Israel to lift its siege on the Gaza Strip, allow the continued supply of food, fuel, and medicine, and reopen border crossings.[56] According to the Jerusalem Post, this was the 15th time in less than two years the council condemned Israel for its human rights record regarding the Palestinian territories.[57] The proceedings were boycotted by Israel and the United States.

On December 15, 2008, following a statement in which he described the embargo on Gaza a crime against humanity, United Nations Special Rapporteur Richard A. Falk was prevented from entering the Palestinian territories by Israeli authorities and expelled from the region.[58] The Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations Itzhak Levanon[59] said that the mandate of the Special Rapporteur was "hopelessly unbalanced," "redundant at best and malicious at worst." [60]

In August 2009, U.N. human rights chief Navi Pillay criticised Israel for the blockade in a 34-page report, calling it a violation of the rules of war.[61]

In March 2010, United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon stated that the blockade of Gaza is causing "unacceptable suffering" and that families were living in "unacceptable, unsustainable conditions".[62]

A UN Fact Finding mission lead by South African Judge Richard Goldstone suggested that the blockade was a war crime and possibly a crime against humanity:

"Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their rights to access a court of law and an effective remedy, could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed."[6] The Goldstone report recommended that the matter be referred to the International Criminal Court if the situation has not improved in six months.

In May 2010, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs stated that the formal economy in Gaza has collapsed since the imposition of the blockade.[63]



Originally posted by DreamWeaver


3. See running the blockade statement above. Yet when Royal Navy does this to ships in the Indian Ocean and the Carribean, because there are pirates its ok, and not piracy then?


See my statements regarding running the blockade above.

As for your comparison with what the Royal Navy does, its none applicable here because piracy is illegal. The flotilla was not involved in piracy and was in international waters.

The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought. (Source: BBC)

The vessels was not carrying any weapons, and Israel did not get the permission of the respective nations to board their vessels.

Originally posted by DreamWeaver


4. Doesnt appear so from video footage of mob bludgeoning commandos with pipes as they land from helicopters. That called ganking. Looks more like self defence on the Israeli's part.


The Israeli soldiers (pirates in this case) were attempting to board and hijack the boats, and thus kidnap the crews. This all happened at night. The crews had every right to attack those attempting to board their ships.

Those boarding the ships were the aggressors, and those defending the ship were...obviously the defenders. The soldiers then murdered those crew members trying to defend their vessels from being attacked and forcibly captured. The soldiers cannot claim self defense.





Edited by TheGreatSimba - 01-Jun-2010 at 16:36
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:38
If you are going to quote the BBC

A ship trying to breach a blockade can be boarded and force may be used to stop it as long as it is "necessary and proportionate"
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:39
And as I said above

But before anybody says anything else I ask you one thing. If you had found yourself landing on that ship and watched the celeritous descent of a pipe towards your face, what would you have done?

It is afterall so very easy to criticse when one is so very far away, not involved and has the benefit of hindsight.


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Posts: 1152 		  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:40
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

If you are going to quote the BBC

A ship trying to breach a blockade can be boarded and force may be used to stop it as long as it is "necessary and proportionate"


Yes, but as I mentioned above, the blockade was not legal, therefor not enforceable. If the blockade were legal, then yes, ships trying to run it can be boarded, as the BBC says, but as the BBC stated, THIS IS ONLY TRUE IF THE BLOCKADE IS LEGAL, which its not.

Originally posted by DreamWeaver



But before anybody says anything else I ask you one thing. If you had found yourself landing on that ship and watched the celeritous descent of a pipe towards your face, what would you have done?

It is afterall so very easy to criticse when one is so very far away, not involved and has the benefit of hindsight.


If I was an Israeli soldier, my mentality would be different, I'd probably be an ultra nationalist believing that I am part of the chosen people and what ever I and my government do is justified.

However, if I was a soldier trying to board a vessel and the vessels crew members were defending themselves by attacking me, if the situation got dire for me, I would probably shoot as well, but I could not claim self defense because I was the aggressor, it simply wouldnt make sense. I was the one that boarded a ship I was not supposed to and I was the one that initiated the aggressive act.

My point being, if I was never forcing my way onto the boat, I would never have had a need to kill anyone.

In this case, the Israeli troops, the aggressors, attempted to forcibly capture the vessel, therefore prompting the crew to resist, resulting in the Israeli troops to shoot them and kill them. So as you see, the blood is still on the hands of the Israeli troops.




Edited by TheGreatSimba - 01-Jun-2010 at 16:44
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A UN Fact Finding mission lead by South African Judge Richard Goldstone suggested that the blockade was a war crime and possibly a crime against humanity:


Suggested I believe is the word here.

Please quote UN Resolution stating the blockades illegality.
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:45
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba



If I was an Israeli soldier, my mentality would be different, I'd probably be an ultra nationalist believing that I am part of the chosen people and what ever I and my government do is justified.

However, if I was a soldier trying to board a vessel and the vessels crew members were defending themselves by attacking me, if the situation got dire for me, I would probably shoot as well, but I could not claim self defense because I was the aggressor, it simply wouldnt make sense. I was the one that boarded a ship I was not supposed to and I was the one that initiated the aggressive act.




Couldn't you? How very high minded and selfless of you.


Edited by DreamWeaver - 01-Jun-2010 at 16:47
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 16:50
Sorry TGS though I actually rather agree with you over the Gaza Blockade, Im now playing devils advocate.

(insert Ssrael related devil pun)
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Originally posted by DreamWeaver



Couldn't you? How very high minded and selfless of you.


Well thats how a sensible person would think. Your argument, as the devils advocate, is that if a Somali pirate attempts to board a vessel, the crew resist, and those pirates shoot and kill them, the Somali pirates acted in self defense and therefore are right for what they did? Is that what you are trying to argue?

The Israeli position on this is truly indefensible. For those that really do support Israel in this situation, I am 100% positive that if Israeli was replaced by Somali or Iranian or Palestinian, their opinion would be different.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 01-Jun-2010 at 16:52
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If I attack a man with a gun and he shoots me.
Concious descision, fight back or not, possibility of getting shot or not.



Edited by DreamWeaver - 01-Jun-2010 at 16:54
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