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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Koreans and Aryans
    Posted: 25-May-2006 at 11:36
 i got a reply from Professor C.Scott Littleton Ph.D. Professor of Anthropology, Emeritus Occidental College Los Angeles CA.
          Seems i got the right guy who wrote about the Alani in Korea in latter fourth century and i'm mighty pleased he saw fit to answer my questions concerning Aryans in Korea.
           Here's his reply.
 
Hi Duncan
    Yes, i'm the guy who suggested that there was an Alanic impact, direct or indirect, on Japan (and Korea and China) in the 4th century C.E. The evidence comes from both archaeology (e.g. the Paekche royal tombs in southwestern Korea, which are almost identical not only to the Japanese
kofun, or "keyhole"-shaped tombs in the Yamato area, but also to the Scytho-Alanic kurgans of Southern Russia and the Ukraine) and mythology. As far as the latter source is concerned, both the Korean Samguk-yusa and the oldest Japanese mythological text, the Kojiki (712C.E.), contain accounts of how three sacred objects descend from the sky and are collected by the youngest son of a primeval being, who become a divine sovereign. These stories are strikingly similar to the Scythian origin myth, as reported by Herodotus, wherein Kolaxais, the youngest son of the primordial being Targitaos, collects a cup, a battleaxe and a yoked plow that fell from the sky and thus becomes the founder of the Royal Scyths.
    Other parallels can be seen between the legends of the ancient Ossetic (Alan) hero Batraz and the Japanese hero Yamato-takera, both of whom die by water after losing their respective magical swords. There is even a Chinese legend dating from the Tang era (8th century C.E.) about a hero who throws his magical sword into the Yangtze, whereupon a hand grabs it and pulls it under the water. And, yes, there are obvious parallels here to the legends about the death of King Arthur, which is one reason why Linda malcor and i have suggested that the core of Arthurian legends, as well as those surrounding the Holy Grail - shades of the Da Vinci Code! - were carried to Western Europe by Sarmations and Alans, beginning in the late 2nd century C.E.
       That at least some Alans may have been among of the horse-riding nomads that invaded Japan ca. 360 C.E. and founded the Imperial Dynasty seems highly probable. Indeed, the Alans seems to have spanned Eurasia from end to end, as Linda A. Malcor and i are convinced that a band of Alans settled in Ireland in the mid 5th century C.E. and were the prototypes of the so-called "Sons of Mil," the last "takers" of Ireland, as recounted in the 12th- century Lebor Gabala Erenn, or "Book of Conquests." The route taken by Mil and his sons, that is, from Scythia across eastern Europe, then on to northern Spain in the company of the Visigoths, and finally by boat to Ireland, correlates almost exactly with the route taken by the Alans in the early 5th century.
      For more information here, please see my articles "Some Possible Arthurian Themes in Japanese Mythology and Folklore" (Journal of Folklore Research 20:67-81, 1983), "Yamato- takeru: An 'Arthurian' Hero in Japanese Tradition" (Asian Folklore Studies 54:259-274,1995), and two works co-authored with Linda Malcor: "Did the Alans reach Ireland? A Reassessment of the 'Sythian' References in the Lebor Gabala Erenn" (in Homage to Jaan Puhvel, Part II, Edgar C Polome and John Grppen eds,pp. 161-182, Washington, DC: The Journal of Indo-European Monograph Series, No 21, 1997) and our book , From Scythia to Camelot: A Radical Reassessment of the Legends of King Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table and the Holy Grail (New York: Garland Publishing. 2nd edition 2000)
       In short you bear an illustrious surname! Hope the foregoing helps. Lots of good wishes and
Cheers,
Scott
 


Edited by Scorpian - 26-May-2006 at 15:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 10:14
            
                 
        
[/QUOTE]

I think thats great you were able to trace it. I know its not the correct thread, but as a history major who loves history from all countries, could you tell us a bit more about what you found in your ancestry?
Also, I read the Alani came to Britain as Legionaires, but I had no idea they came with William the Conqueror in 1066...
[/QUOTE]
 
 
    i've posted a few messages in direct relation to the Alani that settled in Brittany under Goar 407AD and those of the earlier 5500 LazyG Sarmations under the Romans at Hadrains Wall.
        Two greatest Brittany Alan victories; against Attila in 451 at Chalons, France and against Harold in 1066 at Hastings. (check my earlier posts for greater details)
       
            
         


Edited by Scorpian - 26-May-2006 at 08:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 08:38
Originally posted by Hando

 
I didnt mean to sound rude, but I thought you seemed to be assuming that Asians were not proud about their heritage and that in your subconcious opinion pride was predicated on Aryan-ness. By suggesting that we should be proud even without Aryan-ness, seemed to suggest your deep hidden sentiments. If I misunderstood you, I apologise.


 
Yes, you did sound extremely and unjustifiably rude (but I am kind of used to this - a lot of forumers who frequent this East Asian section have this unfortunate fondness for brashness) and yes, you did totally misunderstand me. And honestly I still cannot comprehend why the discussion suddenly turned to discussion about my subconscious?!?? Very puzzling logic even when measured by the standard of psychological babbling ...
 
Apologies (however half-hearted) accepted though. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 04:07
Originally posted by Scorpian



you should check out www.genographic.com if your interested in tracing your ancestry. They do DNA tests on your origins. From there you may be able to see if your anestors were part Alani.
 
 
      i already know my ancestors were Alani but thanks for the interesting infoTongue 
       i only had to piece together how the Alani got themselves from way over there to over here to complete my personal puzzle. 
       i'm now delving deeper into the five Alan groupings in Scotland after the Norman Conquest and their impact on Scottish culture. Wink
            
                 
        
[/QUOTE]

I think thats great you were able to trace it. I know its not the correct thread, but as a history major who loves history from all countries, could you tell us a bit more about what you found in your ancestry?
Also, I read the Alani came to Britain as Legionaires, but I had no idea they came with William the Conqueror in 1066...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 04:02
Originally posted by flyingzone

Originally posted by Hando


 
It appears that you are still thinking in a Eurocentric way and that's pathetic. ... And if someone shows an interest in that there may be any Alani in Korean history, why do you assume its a wish to be western? That assumption shows that you equate automatically with a desire for caucasianess. Its as if an Italiuanb showed inbterest in the possibility that there is some korean in the italian last name of corea.
 
 
"Honestly, I really don't quite understand what you are talking about.
 
Looking at today's Korean population's phenotype, it is evident that, if there's any trace of "Aryan-ness", it must be 0.00000001%. So I honestly cannot even begin to comprehend the desire of anyone to trace modern Koreans' "ethnicity" to Alani. From a geoanthropological perspective, the extent of "Malayo-Polynesian" influence on the Korean genotype is probably much more substantial. If one's truly interested in the anthropological origin of the modern Korean population, I think that's a much more interesting trace to follow.  
 
Just not that long ago, we had to kick out a Korean ultranationalist (and all his clones) who believes that ALL ancient peoples living in Northeast and Central Asia were Korean. Even Confucius was Korean. Now, there are some Korean forumers talking about how they may actually be "Aryan" and they seem thrilled by the idea.
 
I just don't understand that. I am the one who actually urged everyone not to generalize the mentality of a few to a whole population.  But I need some reassurance from my Korean friends that the pride of the Korean nation is not founded on some absurd idea of pan-Koreanism or Aryan Koreanism. Koreans have enough real achievements to be proud of - great history, economic miracle, strong tradition of social activism, etc. They definitely don't need to dig out some half-fabricated "facts" and myths to boost their national pride."
 


Hi, I was merely stating that you seemed to show in your statement that you assumed Koreans were somehow proud to have Aryan mixture however small that may be. No one was suggesting that there is any need for pride in this. Why would any one feel pride to have any Aryanness. Maybe some one from Europe may think this is wonderfull and I respect there desires, but I was simply stating that such sentiments are not held as a matter of pride in Asia. Whether Korean, Chinese or Japanese etc. In fact, in our respective Asian countries, people have been historically more excited about the prospect of being a homogenous race. So I was wondering why you would think any of us would be proud to have any Aryan ness. Perhaps for you this is a source of pride, and that is great for you, but to us we really don't care. In fact some of us would be rather embarrassed at being so "mixed." (As attested by the general cultural mentalities and historical literature of these respective countries. etc)
Having said that, we all know that Koreans, Japanese and Chinese are not homogenous, but rather have many mixed origins. I was nt suggesting that Koreans are pure either. Anyone who thinks that Central Asians are all Koreans, need to rethink there mentality and education. This is not borne in genetic studies done by such innovators as Cavali Sforza, Spencer Wells and Oppenheimer. In fact Koreans and Japanese have many mixed genetic markers. M21a as opposed to M21b for Chinese, or vice versa. So in effect, Chinese, Korean and Japanese basically share very close ancestry. Nationalism and pure race hog wash dont stand up to the test and such puerile imbecilic ideas have already gotten many deluded people into a lot of trouble. I hope that any deluded individual who thinks they are pure returns to their senses before they cause their "proud pure compatriots" any more trouble. It is dangerous and ridiculous at the same time and not scientifically sound either.
I didnt mean to sound rude, but I thought you seemed to be assuming that Asians were not proud about their heritage and that in your subconcious opinion pride was predicated on Aryan-ness. By suggesting that we should be proud even without Aryan-ness, seemed to suggest your deep hidden sentiments. If I misunderstood you, I apologise.

Thank you for your equivocal reply. I respect that.



Edited by Hando - 25-May-2006 at 04:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 13:28


you should check out www.genographic.com if your interested in tracing your ancestry. They do DNA tests on your origins. From there you may be able to see if your anestors were part Alani.
[/QUOTE]
 
 
      i already know my ancestors were Alani but thanks for the interesting infoTongue 
       i only had to piece together how the Alani got themselves from way over there to over here to complete my personal puzzle. 
       i'm now delving deeper into the five Alan groupings in Scotland after the Norman Conquest and their impact on Scottish culture. Wink
            
                 
        


Edited by Scorpian - 24-May-2006 at 15:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 12:57
Originally posted by Hando


 
It appears that you are still thinking in a Eurocentric way and that's pathetic. ... And if someone shows an interest in that there may be any Alani in Korean history, why do you assume its a wish to be western? That assumption shows that you equate automatically with a desire for caucasianess. Its as if an Italiuanb showed inbterest in the possibility that there is some korean in the italian last name of corea.
 
 
Honestly, I really don't quite understand what you are talking about.
 
Looking at today's Korean population's phenotype, it is evident that, if there's any trace of "Aryan-ness", it must be 0.00000001%. So I honestly cannot even begin to comprehend the desire of anyone to trace modern Koreans' "ethnicity" to Alani. From a geoanthropological perspective, the extent of "Malayo-Polynesian" influence on the Korean genotype is probably much more substantial. If one's truly interested in the anthropological origin of the modern Korean population, I think that's a much more interesting trace to follow.  
 
Just not that long ago, we had to kick out a Korean ultranationalist (and all his clones) who believes that ALL ancient peoples living in Northeast and Central Asia were Korean. Even Confucius was Korean. Now, there are some Korean forumers talking about how they may actually be "Aryan" and they seem thrilled by the idea.
 
I just don't understand that. I am the one who actually urged everyone not to generalize the mentality of a few to a whole population.  But I need some reassurance from my Korean friends that the pride of the Korean nation is not founded on some absurd idea of pan-Koreanism or Aryan Koreanism. Koreans have enough real achievements to be proud of - great history, economic miracle, strong tradition of social activism, etc. They definitely don't need to dig out some half-fabricated "facts" and myths to boost their national pride.
 


Edited by flyingzone - 24-May-2006 at 16:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 12:40
Originally posted by Hando

Originally posted by flyingzone

Just be proud of who you are.


It appears that you are still thinking in a Eurocentric way and that's pathetic. There's no need for the urge to "advise" others on how to feel. Don't worry, I am sure that we already feel that way without having to be prompted. Thanks though.
And if someone shows an interest in that there may be any Alani in Korean history, why do you assume its a wish to be western? That assumption shows that you equate automatically with a desire for caucasianess. Its as if an Italiuanb showed inbterest in the possibility that there is some korean in the italian last name of corea.
Anyway, Alani were not white in the european sense of that word.


Edited by Hando - 24-May-2006 at 12:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 12:35
Scorpian, you said "Ten years ago i'd an inkling my ancestors were the Alani and now i've pieced together loads of info on them and their movements.  (proven historical facts and not fantasy)"

you should check out www.genographic.com if your interested in tracing your ancestry. They do DNA tests on your origins. From there you may be able to see if your anestors were part Alani.


Edited by Hando - 24-May-2006 at 12:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 09:12
Originally posted by Hando

Wow, where can I read more about the supposed Alani in Korea? I would be interested...
 
 
    
    books by Professor C Scott Littleton may shed light on what your looking for.  He has written also about the Arthurian Sarmation legends. 


Edited by Scorpian - 24-May-2006 at 09:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 05:31
          
     When i'm researching the Alani i tend to follow threads of information that are known as fact and i tend to dismiss everything else till its been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. Ten years ago i'd an inkling my ancestors were the Alani and now i've pieced together loads of info on them and their movements.  (proven historical facts and not fantasy)
      
    Flyingzone is correct in what he says in that there is much dubious sources of information. In the past i've read loads of stuff that looked believable but i found was bullsh*t after i followed up on the thread/story/event. 
      Till Historians can ratify fact from fiction beyond reasonable doubt then every suchlike claim made to me is termed suppossed!
 
     i've taken the bull by the horns and i've sent off an e'mail to Professor C. Scott Littleton who made contibution to the study and made claim to the Alani/Aryan/Korean/Japan connection. Hopefully i've got the right guy and he'll reply with a little more info than the suppossed hypothetical and questionable info we have at present.
             anyways i hope i've got the right man or i'm gonna get awfully embarrassed when he tells me it ain't himEmbarrassed
                 
                           i'll let you know how i get onWink
 
        
           
               
 
               
 


Edited by Scorpian - 26-May-2006 at 08:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 04:17
  [/QUOTE]
Yeah, I were chuffed to read that...
Cos, I also read a book that suggested that the whole Arthurian legend had Alani basis. Supposeldy, Alani have simliar legends of sowrds in stones andthe Alani were brought to Hadrians wall by Hadrian. So they say this is how it spread to what we now know as King Arthur.
A mix of celtic, christian rooted in original Alani source legends.
[/QUOTE]
 
     
 
 
        i've read about the Alani and Arthurian legends tooWink.   (sounds plausible when you read into all the myths/legends the Alani brought with them and also the lands they settled here)
 
 


Edited by Scorpian - 24-May-2006 at 06:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2006 at 21:12

While those stories about the Alani may be interesting to read (doubtful sources, though, since a lot of them seem to be found in some questionable "White Nationalists" literature), I personally think that any Korean or Japanese person trying so hard to somehow link their ethnic history to an "Aryan" (i.e. Caucasian) group quite pathetic. There is as much "Caucasian-ness" in the current Korean/Japanese population as "Negroid-ness" (because, after all, all human races are supposed to originate from Africa).

Just be proud of who you are. I remember long time ago I (innocently)started a thread entitled "Koreans: the Italians of Asia". It was meant to be a "compliment" to the success of contemporary Korean pop culture and its conquest of the East Asian pop cultural scene. However, a very perceptive and wise Korean forumer correctly pointed out to me that why should Koreans be called "Italians of Asia" and why aren't Italians called "Koreans of Europe." It totally woke me up. This "Eurocentric" mindset is so prevalent in so many of us that sometimes if affects the way we see the world.


Edited by flyingzone - 23-May-2006 at 21:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2006 at 16:55
Originally posted by Scorpian

Originally posted by Hando

Originally posted by Scorpian

 
     The Aryans in Korea being talked about were suppossed Alani. From Korea the Alani suppossed invaded Japan in latter Fourth Century. The Alani in both instance were suppossed racially absorbed by the native populations.


Wow, where can I read more about the supposed Alani in Korea? I would be interested...
 
 
        i got that information off the internet when i was researching the Alani but that was a while back and i can't remember where i read it. Embarrassed
                  i thought it was bullsh*t so i had dismissed it alongside such claims as the Alani were survivors from Atlantis LOL (and i said mocking was catching. lmao) 
        i thought to mention about the suppossed Alani in Korea when you peeps starting talking about it. (had me pondering over what i'd read)
          Apparently it was suppossed two Japanese scholars who made claim about the Alani in Korea and Japan in latter Fourth century. This would tie in with other Alani movements of that time.
          Anyways it may be true or the claim may be bull but it does give pause for thought before we dismiss others forum postings.
            I'm constantly researching the Alani and i'll keep peeps informed should i happen across any other Alani/Korea/Japan info that can prove these claims beyond reasonable doubt.
                    till then i'll keep an open mindThumbs Up
                         
     


Yeah, I were chuffed to read that...
Cos, I also read a book that suggested that the whole Arthurian legend had Alani basis. Supposeldy, Alani have simliar legends of sowrds in stones andthe Alani were brought to Hadrians wall by Hadrian. So they say this is how it spread to what we now know as King Arthur.
A mix of celtic, christian rooted in original Alani source legends.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 04:42
Originally posted by Hando

Originally posted by Scorpian

 
     The Aryans in Korea being talked about were suppossed Alani. From Korea the Alani suppossed invaded Japan in latter Fourth Century. The Alani in both instance were suppossed racially absorbed by the native populations.


Wow, where can I read more about the supposed Alani in Korea? I would be interested...
 
 
        i got that information off the internet when i was researching the Alani but that was a while back and i can't remember where i read it. Embarrassed
                  i thought it was bullsh*t so i had dismissed it alongside such claims as the Alani were survivors from Atlantis LOL (and i said mocking was catching. lmao) 
        i thought to mention about the suppossed Alani in Korea when you peeps starting talking about it. (had me pondering over what i'd read)
          Apparently it was suppossed two Japanese scholars who made claim about the Alani in Korea and Japan in latter Fourth century. This would tie in with other Alani movements of that time.
          Anyways it may be true or the claim may be bull but it does give pause for thought before we dismiss others forum postings.
            I'm constantly researching the Alani and i'll keep peeps informed should i happen across any other Alani/Korea/Japan info that can prove these claims beyond reasonable doubt.
                    till then i'll keep an open mindThumbs Up
                         
     


Edited by Scorpian - 22-May-2006 at 06:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 23:36
Originally posted by Scorpian

 
     The Aryans in Korea being talked about were suppossed Alani. From Korea the Alani suppossed invaded Japan in latter Fourth Century. The Alani in both instance were suppossed racially absorbed by the native populations.


Wow, where can I read more about the supposed Alani in Korea? I would be interested...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 20:34
Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian

If Koreans really do think that they are the ancestors of English people, that would PROVE they have an inferiority complex.
 
    lmaoTongue mocking is catching
                  
                 a wee insightWink
 
     The Aryans in Korea being talked about were suppossed Alani. From Korea the Alani suppossed invaded Japan in latter Fourth Century. The Alani in both instance were suppossed racially absorbed by the native populations.
 
       (the Alani were not Germanic Hitler Aryan peeps though they were termed Aryan)
      
                Possible english peep link they are talking about!
 
   The Alani/Sarmations under Goar (407AD) settled in Brittany and intermarried Celtic Britains (most probably the Lazyg/Sarmations bloodlines from earlier Roman occupation of the UK)
          1066 Breton Alan/Knights invade Britain under the banner of William the Conquerer.
           Alan/Breton descendants live throughout the UK & Ireland today.
 
    (The whole Alani /Korean/ Japan thing may or may not be bull but gives a little credence to this topic of discussion due to the fact these Alani may be directly/indirectly related to either the lazyg or alan factions that ended up in the British Isles & Ireland)
 
         
 
 
 
 
                    


Edited by Scorpian - 20-May-2006 at 03:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 18:10
I'm Korean. I'd say we are more like the Irish than the English. Good at fighting invaders with reckless and sacrificial courage, but not good at invading others. Good at drinking and brooding and...fighting. But not good at living harmoniously with each other.LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2005 at 08:12
when u take over a nation militaristically, u also have very strong influence on their lifestyle, like their language and their religion..hmm..south america being very latin anc catholic?.. and  the fact that A LOT of the worlds people speak english now? >.<
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2005 at 21:31
Originally posted by MengTzu

Originally posted by Tobodai

I think the new Korean reich should have a kimstaka instead of a swatika and its made with a cabbage leaf.  I honestly dont know who in their right mind would A, take founding myths as fact and B, think the British and the Koreans are the same thing, but hell, hey are both good at sinking invaders on the sea at least.

Korean tea is however much better than British tea, it often has this slight popcorn flavor I cant place.  Hence I call it popcorn tea. 

I find it intresting whenver someone claims their country is of the master race, they usually come from a frequently conquered nation.  If theres anyone left on this thread willing to argue Koreans are some kind of master race I would like to hear the explanation for why a master race gets conquered so often by its less masterfull neighbors.  I remeber using this tactic on an Iranian guy and him having no effective response...

Actually there is a good argument that your Iranian friend could've made.  Military success isn't the sole determinant for the greatness of a people.  Isreal had been bullied around for the past few millenia, but they see a sudden surge of success in recent history.  We cannot deny their influence in big academic fields: Eintein in physics, Freud in psychology, and Marx in sociology.  The ideas of these three guys have tremendous influences in not only the intellectual history, but in many other areas of the life of the 20th century.  Hence military success alone doesn't make a people great.

Bottomline, though, is that no one is truly superior (this is so cliche.)  I wouldn't say the Jews are a "master people" because of their recent success either.  Nor would I call any super military power a "master people."

 

this wasnt my point (man what is it with Chinese people misinterpreting everything I say!) my point was for arguments sake, Most people that argue the master race point of view tend to be militaristic and into war.  Which is why its funny that they often come from non-militaritistically inclined nations.  Its very rare you will find someone who argues there is a master race that also values non-militaristic values.

I of course think there is no such thing as inheirent dominance in any field, just geographic circumstance.

"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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