Finding a patron saint to AE

Bey,

You normally know how to pick your fights. This is a losing one. In the great scheme of things, JP II was one of the best popes in history. He was very pragmatic. He did opposed the U.S. and its unjust military interventions.

Your argument that he is responsible for deaths is a stretch. He is just a moral figure head, not the head of a major nation.

His main failure was his mishandling of the child abuse cases. He should have sent a clear message than any priest who engaged in those acts were out of the priesthood and into jail.

Frustration and excitement brings the day. IS that enough or will he have more to say? Advocating ill will is his child's play; unbecoming of a communist the stature of Bey.

St. George or St. Nick- they are largely non-offensive to Muslims and Christians, and St. George is more widely accepted in the middle east.

I think St. George is a good choice..... unless you be a jew.



I say, far better than a Christian, we go with a historian, like Ibn Khaldun. It's a history website for christ's sake, let's make a historian our totem- doubt any old saint is going to hurt, and if the Vatican can hang a picture of Mao in ignorance, we can do our greatest historian full knowing who he is. It's a English language site with a most unenglish historian, it's a good, all around symbol. If you don't go with Ibn, you'll have to go with St. George by default though.... you know, it's pretty neutral.

"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls. … We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.

• Speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf

And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these 14 years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.

• speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933

Hitler was not a 'de-facto' 'athiest', he was a normal Catholic. Calling Hitler 'atheist' is a propaganda lie spread by American Christian right. As we see above Hitler himself makes it clear that he is a Catholic and he is fighting to save Christianity from 'international atheism'. Stalin, on the other hand, was an atheist, and cannot be called Orthodox, unless you show us where he claims that he is one, and he is fighting for the Orthodox belief, etc.

If you don't go with Ibn, you'll have to go with St. George by default though.... you know, it's pretty neutral.

Actually I thought St. Catherine of Alexandria was the most neutral choice, no objections, has multiple votes, pre-schism saint so she makes the best choice in my opinion.

Bey,

As most Catholics here will tell you, we don't really follow what the Pope says. He is like a beloved nagging old aunt. You agree with her in her presence, and then you do whatever you were going to do in any case. Besides, at some point the Roman Church decided that birth began at conception because the science that they had was not advanced enough. The way the Church is, they will stick to their guns for many, many years. Look, it took up to JPII to admit that evolution doesn't contradict scripture and about 500 to admit that they were wrong about Galileo.

And on this JPII actually shined. He admitted to more mistakes of the Church and asked for forgiveness than probably any other pope in history.

As for supporting right wing regimes, JPII was actually quite pragmatic on this front. Although liberation theology was rejected during his tenure, a strong social Gospel was still preached in Latin America. In most cases the rejection amounted to "everything is okay as long as you don't use Marxism." Which of course is correct since armed conflict, a corner stone of marxism, is on conflict with the pacifism of Christianity.

And here is another one about the Roman church: it sides with everyone, unless the party openly rejects it. Just as there were bishops siding with dictators, there were bishops and priests siding with the people. This way it is always on the side of of the victor. Had Marxists not been anti-clerical, you would have had Roman bishops siding along with them once they took over the government.

Because in many circles, communists have turned their cause into a religion with Marx as their new god Lenin as their new Christ and Saints Joseph and Leon to bring them to their communist paradise.

The problem is AE has become reactionary, one way or another, so that anti-clerical views are censored.

Whoa, whoa, whoa hold up there a minute. Even though I am a moderator I was not speaking in any official capacity, I do not bring up issues like that in a public forum unless I feel it is warranted, and trust me you'll know when I'm speaking as a moderator. I found absolutely nothing wrong in your statements as far as the Code of Conduct is concerned but many things wrong on a personal level so I went into a discussion on a personal level.

Please, I'm talking to you one man to another on opinions, don't take it any further than that.

Whatever the reason of your obsession about Marx or Communism, it is really boring. Look, if you don't like me, that's fine. All I ask for is at least find your own ad hominems, am I asking too much? Just don't bring Marx or whoever it is you think is an easy target into everything.

Your absolutely correct Beylerbeyi, I should not have drug communism into this discussion as you did not bring it up into this discussion, you express an anti-Clerical view and due to other things you have said on the forum it registered as Marxist in my head even though you did not specifically mention it. For that I apologize, I was just merely highlighting the fact that just because you find negatives in something doesn't mean there aren't negatives (and positives) in anything else.

Also, I don't dislike you Beylerbeyi at all. I appreciate all members of the forum equally as long as they follow the rules which as far as I can tell in posts of yours I've read you have been doing that. I do disagree with you on a few points but that is a personal disagreement and is what discussion is for. I hope that you continue to play by the rules and don't think that there is any alterior motives behind our discussions.

Now we know what causes thunder so we no longer believe in thunder spirits/gods unlike them.

Yes we have our own form of thunder in quantum physics and such. It's funny but it seems like we're just peeling the layers from an onion. Once we get passed one there's always another mystery, we are always one step away from disproving religion, yet religion has yet to fail. That is the reality of religion that we can never fully understand the world even though every second we come that much closer because omniscience is the realm of the divine.

Bey, most of us respect you to varying degrees. I would hope the mutuality goes both ways too, as I think it does. Aside from being opinionated, which is your right, all you have to do to in order to get half of the membership off your back is to show some restraint with the vulgarities. Words to incent. Cursing even. Pretty much that covers most issues at my end. Once you manage that the ad hominemer's would lose traction. Try not to incite then later justify your actions by ignoring C-5 of the CoC though. Members will take things to heart when the CoC is broken and an offender is let off. We don't want to limited freedom of speech as much as limit freedom of bull...speech (Rude insults, defamatory remarks, offensive images, cursing, profanity intended as an insult towards another member, personal attacks, words of hate. Any remarks that stirs up anger).

Edited by Seko - 25-Sep-2008 at 19:50