Finding a patron saint to AE
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Topic: Finding a patron saint to AE
Posted By: Maharbbal
Subject: Finding a patron saint to AE
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 00:22
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Folks, we ought to be prepared to the remote possibility that after all the pope is not only talking non-sense about divorce but may also be right on some of the most essential aspects of life. If the Roman Catholic vision of the world happened to be true, we are behaving like a bunch of infidels good for damnation. So lets do something to save our immortal souls, lets pick a paton saint for this website so as to make it a little bit more godly. Maybe the bloke we'll pick shall talk in our favour on judgement day. So who would you propose? Personally I'd go for saint Nicolas, the patron saint of children and scholars. Any other idea? ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Replies:
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 02:03
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Saint Catherine of Alexandria, patron saint of teachers, archivists, librarians/libraries, philosophers, scholars, schoolchildren, students, scribes, theologians and the University of Paris, no less. ------------- |
Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 02:16
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I'd vote Saint Catherine, could'nt we have more than one patron saint? ------------- 
Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting) 
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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 02:23
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Well, since so much of posting on this site is basically epitomizing what has been written by others and coupling it with analysis, I would suggest St. Photius.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 02:30
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What was he the patron saint of? -------------
Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 02:32
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I'd honestly have to check. He was known for his scholarship (several modern historians have asserted that he was the greatest or among the greatest Christian scholars of the first millenium) and his commentaries.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 02:52
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None of the other suggestions have boobs.
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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 03:35
How about St. Ziggy, The Patron Saint of the undecided. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 09:46
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If we follow the example of many organisations today, we must have a Saintperson who is either female or male [1] plus a Vice Saintperson [2] of the opposite gender. Or possible joint Saintpersons if we don't have term limits.
My own temptation here too often is to appeal to St Jude.
 [1] But not both.
[2] If the concept of a Vice Saint is not oxymoronic.
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Posted By: Frederick Roger
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 10:26
| St. Ciappelletto |
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 13:22
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St. Pope John Paul II
Reasons Why: -We can relate to him because he lived in the same century(s) that we were born/lived in -He dealt with many international issues that we love to discuss about -He spoke many languages and was a learned man -When I visited the Vatican he blessed my rosary beads 
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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 13:26
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Would it be possible for the admin to recreate this post with a poll in it and the various options proposed? I really like St Catherine of Alexandria as an patron for the following reasons: 1. She has boobs as Regi mentioned 2. She was involved in history (she met wit Maximian and she reappeared during the most discussed period of the crusades and she was a good friend of Joan of Arc) 3. Her symbol is the wheel which is particularly appropriate for a website devoted to history (vision of the repetition of time as well as the cycles in economic and natural history) 4. She comes from the East of the Mediterranean as a large number of AE's members 5. She had an order of chivalry named after her which is the ultimate cool 6. There is a lot of iconography about her 7. She is one of the mightiest saints in heaven which may always come handy 8. Her feast day is in November so we can celebrate it fairly soon 9. In French a Catherinette is a woman unmarried at 25and surely many of us can't date because they spend too much time on AE 10. Many famous universities have her as a patron (Paris, Cambridge...) So I'd go for Catherine ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 13:44
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Catholics, bah. |
Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 14:05
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You don't have to be catholic to celebrate St. Patrick. In fact most people here don't even know he was. You wear green and drink beer, and it has something to do with Ireland... Woo Hoo!!
Have a pint and say "grandma Haggit."
------------- The sharpest spoon in the drawer. |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 15:19
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I like Maharbbal's suggestion of St. Catherine of Alexandria, however I believe the patron saint of us moderators should be St. Barbara, who is the patron saint of firefighters, so that we can turn to her whenever we jump into a flame war. As to the male counterpart to Catherine I would offer up St. Isidore of Seville:
I think he fits our theme very well, therefore I would advocate joint patronage by Catherine and Isidore.
First off, aren't we a little ahead of ourselves Ponce? Secondly I don't believe that what John Paul II did in life was truly "saintly" he was a great statesman of the church but I don't know if that quite qualifies. Personally I'd rather see Dorothy Day and others like her reviewed for cannonization way before JP2. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
http://saints.sqpn.com/pst01058.htm - computer technicians Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 15:23
Hey, if it weren't for Catholics, Gustav Adolf would have been merely the cousin of the King of Sweden.
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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 15:25
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With as much fighting as goes on here, how about a military Saint like St. George?
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Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 16:37
First off, I do not believe I ever get ahead of myself I am always where I need to be . Second I believe that he is saintly and so do millions of others who actually forced the Church to make his saint-hood process go even faster. I am sure there are other people in the forum who would agree as well.
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Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 17:03
I think that thats a good idea since he was pure, benevolent and wise and protected the people from the fire breathing dragon and got the girl  , kind of like what the mods do with flame wars(only they don't get the girl ), he put out the fire, and he would be perfect for the whole miltary history forum and all the versus articles in historical amusement-------------
Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 17:13
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There can be only one choice......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_of_Augsburg - Saint_Ulrich
There is an euphemistic phrase in German.
To puke.....
You have to call the Saint Ulrich........ ------------- 
http://imageshack.us"> 
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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 17:22
Hehe, "talk to Ullrik" is slang for puking here as well. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 17:56
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Ulrich von Hutten can be Poet Laureate.
http://www.nndb.com/people/647/000094365/ - http://www.nndb.com/people/647/000094365/
Sounds about right. ------------- |
Posted By: Caoimhe
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 21:44
Why do we need a fusty old patron saint when we have a daughter of a God, Zeus (one of the coolest), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clio_%28muse%29 - Clio to represent us?
------------- During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 22:20
Well, I think we should stick with the Church before the Great Schism. John Paul II, even if he is eventually canonized, will only be considered a saint by the Catholic Church.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 23:49
So? It's just for fun in any case, doesn't matter who considers who as what. ------------- |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 02:40
Well, I should think it would be obvious that it would be kind of silly to decide upon a "patron saint" who isn't a saint.
Although if we chose a second route and just used the term "patron", we could expand a bit and use secular thinkers as well, which might actually fit better with the forum.-Akolouthos
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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 08:35
Akolouthos, I'm surprised that you would allow such a minor issue to be brought up. After all we can pray for assistance by whomever we want (in fact that's how new saints are discovered) all that Sainthood is is a confirmation by the Church authority whether it is permissible to venerate that person or not. And it is my understanding that anything not forbidden by the church is permissible until the authority has decreed on it. Therefore I do not think it improper to disallow saints that came after the schism (on either end, be free to advocate an orthodox saint after 800, 1054 or 1204, or whenever you believe the schism actually occured.) I mean they are still considered a "saint" by a church authority. Also even though it wouldn't be improper to have a secular patron for All Empires, that isn't the idea behind the thread of AE having a patron saint. After all AE can have both as well as a Hindu deity, a Boddhisatva and a Voodoo spirit associated with it. This thread is for which saints should represent AE but does not exclude other patrons. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 10:58
Janus is right, though I see Ako's linguistic point. I think Count Belisarius would like me to point out that there are plenty of gods and godlings and anthropomorphisms to choose from on the Discworld too.
Meanwhile I'm reminded, as I frequently am, of Harry Turtledove's story in which the hero, watching crowds of people entering a church dedicated to St Andrew, concluded that if half California slid into the sea it wouldn't be San Andreas' fault. ------------- |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 15:51
Guys, for all I care you could name a one-legged chicken the patron saint of AE. I was simply pointing out that it would be silly to use a word that is not entirely applicable, the which you cannot dispute. As for a secular patron, I have no problem with that, having suggested it; I was just hoping, perhaps vainly, for consistency. My point was that John Paul II a) is not a recognized as a saint by any denomination, and b) is from a period wherein there are thousands of denominations that would not recognize him even if the Roman Catholic Church did. Do what you will; I have no desire to be drawn into a serious discussion about something that is supposed to be a bit of fun.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 18:09
Good reasoning. I vote for St. Patrick. ------------- |
Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 18:37
I think Count Belisarius would like me to point out that there are plenty of gods and godlings and anthropomorphisms to choose from on the Discworld too.
I don't think death would be an ideal patron for some reason nor would Anoia godess of things that get stuck in drawers be ideal, I vote Catherine and ol' George-------------
Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 19:26
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I'll vote for St.Ulrich. May be i announced it already. -------------
http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 19:59
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Because of the controversy with the patron saint and due to the fact that those at AE come from a diverse background I now suggest http://books.google.com/books?id=k53eZ2ARZPwC&pg=PA301&lpg=PA301&dq=St.+Poet+of+the+Miraculous+Eyeball&source=web&ots=Enrba8cyVm&sig=_oj5auGdzXX8tahGHPTtcuhNSRc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA301,M1 - Saint Poet of the Miraculous Eyeball .
------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 23:44
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I liked the proposal of St Isidorus of Sevillia as "VP" (vice patron) although I am not sure he is recognized by the Orthodox church. I'm against St George because that's the patron of Albion and I refuse to have anything to do with bloody England and because it would be undermining the trials of some to make AE a bit less war-oriented. I support St Ulrich as the patron of the tavern forum. Finally Caoimhe should understand that: 1. Pissing off Clio won't cost us anything (we all spend 100 in the Tartarus before coming back to Earth anyway) while St Catherine could make us pay dearly our lack of faith in her (not going to Hell is my definition of a good incentive). 2. What did Clio do? On the other hand Caty got nearly cruched by a wheel which is my definition of coolness. 3. Caty has often been regarded as a Chritsianised version of a famous female philosopher of the 2nd century BC so she somehow embodies both pre- and post Jesus times. 4. Caty broke the glass ceiling by herself while Clio is merely the daughter of the boss. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 11:49
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Meanwhile I'm reminded, as I frequently am, of Harry Turtledove's story in which the hero, watching crowds of people entering a church dedicated to St Andrew, concluded that if half California slid into the sea it wouldn't be San Andreas' fault.
Meanwhile I'm reminded, as I frequently am, of Harry Turtledove's story in which the hero, watching crowds of people entering a church dedicated to St Andrew, concluded that if half California slid into the sea it wouldn't be San Andreas' fault.
Graham, that was awful. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 13:32
The only time I was sorry that a Turkish fascist failed to assasinate his target was when Mehmet Ali Agca shot this son of a bitch. He was a throughly evil and extremely lucky bastard, would make a fitting Saint for the Roman Catholic Church, but not for a semi-civilised place such as AE.
Allegedly, after he recovered he visited Agca in prison and told him: 'When I was shot I thought I was going to die. I was surprised to have survived. God have helped me.' To which Agca replied: 'Actually, I was surprised as well. Normally when I hit someone they die'. Like the young people say, LOL. ------------- |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 14:22
I don't like Turtledove's alternative histories usually, but The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump I reread regularly. ------------- |
Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 15:37
------------- What is the officer problem? |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 16:02
Yawn..... Years from now, Pope John Paul's memory and Catholicism will still exist.
Meanwhile, Marxism, Leninism, Maoism, Stalinism and all the other failed leftist ideologies will fade from civilization like a bad dream. One belief is based on eternal truth, the other is well.... very temporary.
No amount of ranting is going to change that equation.
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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 16:44
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Pope John Paul II should be the patron saint of marketing. He turned himself into the face of Catholicism the same way that Dave from Wendy's burgers became the face of his franchise. J.P. II was catholicism, and even big anti-Catholic bigots, such as my mother in law, liked him.
He understood that canonizing people are great publicity stunts, so he canonized people galore. His trips were great media events. And he even had super-hero quality stuff, having his own pope mobile! I bet he also had a utility belt. Did he have some defects? Sure, but who doesn't? All in all, he was one of the best popes, and a mighty nice religious leader. ------------- |
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 16:48
Bey, your post was bit distasteful,wasn't it. Btw, this polish muscovy duck wasn't my friend at the end but to kill him or anyone else isn't a very good final decission..... -------------
http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 17:40
Don't be so sure, Nostradamus. Religion is already disappearing in civilised countries. If you don't believe me, listen to your hero JP II, he made a career out of whining about this (along with kissing American ass and killing Africans).
As for 'Eternal Truth', you are less likely to find it in the Catholic Church (or any other temple) than find icebergs in the Sahara Desert during a mid-summer day's noon.
It was far more tasteful than the eulogies written here for JP II. A creature who was responsible for the death of countless people for his policies, in his support for dictators in Latin America (he was a shameless agent of American domination) and his sabotaging of contraceptive use and fight against AIDS in Africa.
Besides, I just wrote my opinion of the bastard. He's not a member of AE is he? Note that I don't deny his importance. I think he is one of the most significant Catholic figures of the 20th century, along with Adolf Hitler.
Like Diderot said, 'mankind won't be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest'. It's too late for JP II, but let's hope someone will strangle Bush with the entrails of the new nazi pope. ------------- |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 18:01
Evidently God did not die along with Nietszche.
Actually you can find it in a variety of Churches, temples and mosques (Bahai belief).
Religious truth reflects the best of who we are as humans and is the foundation of any society. Religous truth endures because it is what makes us human.
The artificial systems such as Marxism or modern secularism fail. Religous systems have evolved over thousands of years and thus have a far better understanding of human beings than Karl Marx or Nietszche.
Actually, Hitler was a de facto athiest with vague beliefs about destiny. Hitler was no more "Catholic" than his fellow atheists Mao and Pol Pot were "Buddhists". It makes more sense to compare JPII to Ayatollah Khomeini. It was far safer to live in the theistic Ayatollah's Iran than in atheist Mao's China or Pol Pot's Cambodia. That is because religous truth has safeguards that prevent any "Year Zero" or "cultural revolution" type destruction. Marxism does not have these safeguards
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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 18:07
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Bey,
You normally know how to pick your fights. This is a losing one. In the great scheme of things, JP II was one of the best popes in history. He was very pragmatic. He did opposed the U.S. and its unjust military interventions. Your argument that he is responsible for deaths is a stretch. He is just a moral figure head, not the head of a major nation. His main failure was his mishandling of the child abuse cases. He should have sent a clear message than any priest who engaged in those acts were out of the priesthood and into jail. ------------- |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 18:30
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I'm a John XXIII fan. ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 19:55
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Frustration and excitement brings the day. IS that enough or will he have more to say? Advocating ill will is his child's play; unbecoming of a communist the stature of Bey. ------------- |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 20:57
Letting Africans kill each other with AIDS is hardly the same as the wars in Angola and Ethiopia. If anything it shows that he is unwilling to compromise with his ideals. I certainly wish Communists of the world could live up to that image instead of compromising their ideals to better fit into the "modern world". Philosophy fits philosophy, Philosophy does not fit the view of the world, which is why Communism has failed and Christianity has not. And your a damned fool if you believe religion is dying Islam is attracting the most converts, second only to Catholicism and I believe fundamentalist religious groups outnumber communist groups so tell me who is abandoning the people?
And I'm quite certain you will find the truth by shutting out all other opinions but those you all ready hold, bravo. 
So that is why he publicly castigated Father Jon Sabrino for his support of liberation theology in Latin America. And I guess since the Vatican obviously supplied all of the contraceptives and sex education for Africa he is definitely to blame for that. 
If Adolf Hitler counts as a significant Catholic figure then Che Guevera and Fidel Castro by default must count as Catholic figures as well. And I guess Stalin would count as a great Orthodox figure, I mean he was slated to become a priest at a young age and all........ ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Mercury_Dawn
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 07:02
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St. George or St. Nick- they are largely non-offensive to Muslims and Christians, and St. George is more widely accepted in the middle east. I think St. George is a good choice..... unless you be a jew. I say, far better than a Christian, we go with a historian, like Ibn Khaldun. It's a history website for christ's sake, let's make a historian our totem- doubt any old saint is going to hurt, and if the Vatican can hang a picture of Mao in ignorance, we can do our greatest historian full knowing who he is. It's a English language site with a most unenglish historian, it's a good, all around symbol. If you don't go with Ibn, you'll have to go with St. George by default though.... you know, it's pretty neutral. |
Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 08:00
 ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum/forums.html |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 11:38
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AE has become a reactionary environment compared to what it was before. I wrote my views on the assasination attempt and everyone is upset. I've written the same thing almost three years ago but nobody cared back then:
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=8267&KW=turkish+fascist&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=8267&KW=turkish+fascist&PN=1
So I don't understand your problem? You don't like expletives all of a sudden or what? Is that it? I thought this forum was for people above the age of 13.
Cryptic,
So your truth cannot be found in Muslim mosques? Interesting.
There is no truth in religion at all. All religions are solid lies within soft lies all wrapped around a shiny core of more lies. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of humans or the good side of humans. 'Religious truth' is the foundation of Saudi Arabia and Iran, not of any advanced country. All advanced countries are found on rejection of religion.
What arrogance. Speak for yourself, I was born human. I also wonder since 'religious truth is what makes us human', people who don't acknowledge your so-called 'truth' are not humans? Are Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, etc not human according to you? I give it to you that at least you are not a two-faced liar like JP2, who posed with the Muslims for posterity.
Don't hold your breath on that, Nostradamus. Religion is a revolting mix of primitive ignorance and opium fuers volk. It feeds on the weaknesses of humans, not on any understanding of anything. Its grip on the society got weaker in history, as modernity came around. Churches lost all battles they picked with science and got castrated in the end so that the same people who were burning scientists on stakes when they were powerful are talking about love and understanding today. These lies won't save them and they will disappear some day, just like Zeus worship disappeared and is considered fairy tales/mythology today.
That's bullshit. This is what he said in 1941:
'I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.'
He remained a member of the Catholic church until his death. More quotes:
"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls. … We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.
Hitler was not a 'de-facto' 'athiest', he was a normal Catholic. Calling Hitler 'atheist' is a propaganda lie spread by American Christian right. As we see above Hitler himself makes it clear that he is a Catholic and he is fighting to save Christianity from 'international atheism'. Stalin, on the other hand, was an atheist, and cannot be called Orthodox, unless you show us where he claims that he is one, and he is fighting for the Orthodox belief, etc.
Pol Pot's Cambodia was an American creation and ally. It shows American ignorance and cynicism to use it as an example of evils of Marxism. It would work on clueless people, but if you know about Marx (he considers peasantry petite bourgeois, and welcomes their transformation into urban proletariat) and what happened in Cambodia (urban proletariat forced to become peasants, with American support), you know that it is bullshit. I recommend that you use Stalin as the evil Marxist poster-boy in the future. Because best propaganda is based on truth.
Anyway, I support the people who liberated Cambodia, not the American creation Pol Pot. As to Mao, I am not a big fan, but under his regime China kisked the foreigners out improved a lot, so your claims are wrong. You were far more likely to survive childhood there, compared to India, for instance.
Safeguards? Like the parts of the old testament which advocate genocide? Do you have any idea what happened in the Middle Ages when religion reigned supreme? Ever heard of the Crusades? Inquisition?
Hugo,
Not at all, he was a shameless American collaborator, who hurt Latin America a lot. Supported American installed dictators and opposed popular movements, when the popular movements were supported by the local church. Just read about 'liberation theology'.
I just repeat what doctors and aid organisations say. He made it absolutely clear that under no circumstances use of condoms is allowed. Imagine you are an ignorant Catholic in a poor country and have a spouse who has AIDS. The doctors are desparately trying to get you to use condoms during sex. Your local priest is undecided (and in many cases agreeing with the doctors), but some spastic in Vatican says 'no', so you get AIDS as well. You both die leaving behind HIV positive AIDS orphans... THAT is what's happening in the world, especially in Africa, and that is what he is responsible for. Of course it is not just his fault, but he surely could have saved thousands if not millions of lives.
Janus,
Why do you compare communism (a secular ideology) with religion? Why do you think I am talking about the 'truth of communism' when I oppose the idea that the religions speak the truth?
To be honest, when I write that the truth can not be found in churches, what I have in mind as a better place to look at is laboratories, not party HQs. As usual you attack my political beliefs because you believe you can score easy points there. Open up your mind. ------------- |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 12:18
Because in many circles, communists have turned their cause into a religion with Marx as their new god Lenin as their new Christ and Saints Joseph and Leon to bring them to their communist paradise. In Communism Marx was against religion because he thought that if people only cared about the afterlife they wouldn't care about the class struggle so they wouldn't do anything to aid them in this life. Religion does not cloud the reality of the world but supplements it, gives it a human element. Or would you enjoy it if the government saw you as a collection of cells rather than a human being? Without spirituality communism cannot work because it denigrates us to things instead of humans.
I was just trying to show you that religious affiliation is parallel to your political affiliation. There are religious fanatics, religious idiots, religious heroes. Just like there are political fanatics, political idiots and political heroes. It is all how one looks at it, and we all have our own biases.
As you can tell from my sig below I have no motive to attack your political beliefs. And I could care less about what others think, I'm expressing my personal feelings about the topic (which btw I was unaware of the comments 3 years ago, but if I was I assure you I would have responded in a similar manner. I think that by rejecting religion outright your the one who is closing your mind. After all even in primitive societies tens of thousands of years ago, they were living in a communist society, no classes everyone shares in the labor and shares in reward and yet we can tell from their artifacts that they had a thriving spiritual side. Perhaps that is the reason pure marxism hasn't taken hold in the world, because it denies a whole portion of our being. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 12:20
Actually I thought St. Catherine of Alexandria was the most neutral choice, no objections, has multiple votes, pre-schism saint so she makes the best choice in my opinion. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 14:31
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err... people... gents... please... behave this was supposed to be a nice little thread about nothing else than picking a saint to be our patron (btw in as much as I admire ibn khaldun, he was a Muslim so hardly qualify as a saint, if we had problems proving his very existence you could have a go but we don't). Anyway, how did you manage to turn this little thread into your usual west v marx crap. @ bey I defenitely disagree with you, but what I disagree the most with is your lack of humour. C'mon this is just plain fun respecting an old tradition. So tell which saint you'd vote for or stop trolling. In the old AE which you so dearly regret Kom would have crucified you for such a behaviour. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 14:33
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Bey,
As most Catholics here will tell you, we don't really follow what the Pope says. He is like a beloved nagging old aunt. You agree with her in her presence, and then you do whatever you were going to do in any case. Besides, at some point the Roman Church decided that birth began at conception because the science that they had was not advanced enough. The way the Church is, they will stick to their guns for many, many years. Look, it took up to JPII to admit that evolution doesn't contradict scripture and about 500 to admit that they were wrong about Galileo. And on this JPII actually shined. He admitted to more mistakes of the Church and asked for forgiveness than probably any other pope in history. As for supporting right wing regimes, JPII was actually quite pragmatic on this front. Although liberation theology was rejected during his tenure, a strong social Gospel was still preached in Latin America. In most cases the rejection amounted to "everything is okay as long as you don't use Marxism." Which of course is correct since armed conflict, a corner stone of marxism, is on conflict with the pacifism of Christianity. And here is another one about the Roman church: it sides with everyone, unless the party openly rejects it. Just as there were bishops siding with dictators, there were bishops and priests siding with the people. This way it is always on the side of of the victor. Had Marxists not been anti-clerical, you would have had Roman bishops siding along with them once they took over the government. ------------- |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 15:00
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Maharbbal, I sympathise. It was such a nice thread to begin with. ------------- |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 15:03
Many circles my ass. You know as well as I do that the reason you brought up Communism is because it was I who wrote the anti-religious argument. It could have been someone else, I agreed with Tobodei on this issue to the letter, for instance, and he was not even left wing, let alone a Socialist. The problem is AE has become reactionary, one way or another, so that anti-clerical views are censored.
But I suspect you just follow the line of attack already set out for you by others. Nowadays in AE, no matter I write, I get ad-hominems like these. Even if I write 'I don't like this beer' someone jumps in with 'yeah as if Soviet beer was better'...
I really don't know whether this behaviour stems from clinical red-phobia spread by the pocket McCarthys in the AE splashing on to me because people know I am a socialist, or is it because personal hatred of some people being vented out through a line of attack initiated by a relatively smarter member and parroted ad nauseam by endless others?
Whatever the reason of your obsession about Marx or Communism, it is really boring. Look, if you don't like me, that's fine. All I ask for is at least find your own ad hominems, am I asking too much? Just don't bring Marx or whoever it is you think is an easy target into everything.
You were not trying to show me anything, mate. The subject was truth of religions, and I wrote that there is no such thing. That's what I believe, and I was an atheist way before I was a socialist. I am far more likely to become a liberal capitalist tomorrow, than believing in your fairy tales.
I am not rejecting religion outright. I hold it to scrutiny and reject it when it fails.
What is the 'spiritual' side other than a vague sense of awe rooted in ignorance? They had religions because they were ignorant. Now we know what causes thunder so we no longer believe in thunder spirits/gods unlike them. ------------- |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 15:08
Eli, eli, lama sabachthani? ------------- |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 16:49
Whoa, whoa, whoa hold up there a minute. Even though I am a moderator I was not speaking in any official capacity, I do not bring up issues like that in a public forum unless I feel it is warranted, and trust me you'll know when I'm speaking as a moderator. I found absolutely nothing wrong in your statements as far as the Code of Conduct is concerned but many things wrong on a personal level so I went into a discussion on a personal level. Please, I'm talking to you one man to another on opinions, don't take it any further than that.
Your absolutely correct Beylerbeyi, I should not have drug communism into this discussion as you did not bring it up into this discussion, you express an anti-Clerical view and due to other things you have said on the forum it registered as Marxist in my head even though you did not specifically mention it. For that I apologize, I was just merely highlighting the fact that just because you find negatives in something doesn't mean there aren't negatives (and positives) in anything else. Also, I don't dislike you Beylerbeyi at all. I appreciate all members of the forum equally as long as they follow the rules which as far as I can tell in posts of yours I've read you have been doing that. I do disagree with you on a few points but that is a personal disagreement and is what discussion is for. I hope that you continue to play by the rules and don't think that there is any alterior motives behind our discussions.
Yes we have our own form of thunder in quantum physics and such. It's funny but it seems like we're just peeling the layers from an onion. Once we get passed one there's always another mystery, we are always one step away from disproving religion, yet religion has yet to fail. That is the reality of religion that we can never fully understand the world even though every second we come that much closer because omniscience is the realm of the divine. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 17:15
That comment was not targeted to you, it was for another mod who threatened me through PM. Sorry, I should have made it clearer. ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 18:19
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Bey, most of us respect you to varying degrees. I would hope the mutuality goes both ways too, as I think it does. Aside from being opinionated, which is your right, all you have to do to in order to get half of the membership off your back is to show some restraint with the vulgarities. Words to incent. Cursing even. Pretty much that covers most issues at my end. Once you manage that the ad hominemer's would lose traction. Try not to incite then later justify your actions by ignoring C-5 of the CoC though. Members will take things to heart when the CoC is broken and an offender is let off. We don't want to limited freedom of speech as much as limit freedom of bull...speech (Rude insults, defamatory remarks, offensive images, cursing, profanity intended as an insult towards another member, personal attacks, words of hate. Any remarks that stirs up anger).
Your right to participate has been protected even though you make it hard on us sometimes. Many of us look forward to a cold slap on the face now and then, and you do provide that. Just don't expect to do it most of the time as if that were the only thing that mattered. If it is then the right to say those things is limited. Hope you will take my messge as one of concern and intent to clear the air. People naturally will react and get all hominemical on you if you don't mind a few of those things I mentioned.
PS - If you have a complaint about a staff member, the proper channels would be to raise the issue via pm to one of the admins. I would gladly take your call if you care to share your concern with me. Also, I don't think I need to hide my feelings that I respect and admire most of your work. I actually do. I need to read more about how the world was and is effected by capitalism, communism and any other ism that crossed the land. You tend to provide that knowledge. Carry on, just mind the p's and q's while you are at it.
- - Thanks for the patience Maharbbal. Now we can presumably go back to the topic. Heeeere's Johnny! ------------- |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 19:04
There is a huge ddiference in magnitude between Pol Pots "Year Zero and the Cultural revolution and the crusades and inquisition. Unlike the Marxists, the goal of the crusaders was never to completely destroy a society or a culture. Rather it was to restore Christianity as the areas domiante religion. Of course the crusaders killed Muslim and Jewish civilians. They stopped far short, however, of destroying the entire Islamic society. Muslims, Jews and their institutions continued to exist following the Crusader occupation.
The inquisition.... The total fatalities of the inquisition were about 20,000 people over the period of 100 years. Pol Pot and Chairman Mao exceeded this during one bad month.
Yes it can. I mentioned Mosques. The Bahai belief is a reference to their teachings that religions are different manifestations of the same truth (temple, mosque, church)
Good Knowledge. But is still does not change the core fact that neither Hitler nor his ideology were religous in nature. Hitler was a nomina / cultural Catholic in much the same way that Saddam Hussein was a nominal / cultural Sunni Muslim. Both were secular tyrants. Their cultural religous background does not change this.
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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2008 at 02:05
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@ glce & Seko thx for the support, may St Catherine bless you and make your path one full of flowers (unless you have medical issues with polen). @ bey I'm waaaaaaaaaaay to drunk to take offense and/or to beginning trying to understand what it is you've written. Anyway send me a PM if you want to come to Paris this year you're welcome (along with every AE member). Just remember when you called me an islamophobic the next time you call the pope a fascist. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2008 at 13:08
It is a joke. Google it.
Cryptic,
I already responded to you but it failed to register. I won't waste my time.
Seko,
I have no complaints about anyone mod or not, I just cleared some point for Janusrook.
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Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2008 at 21:33
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I've always been a bit biased in favor of St. Patrick for the obvious reasons. ------------- |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2008 at 07:53
religion is for emotional well being and nothing more profound than that. The only thing human about relgion is the fact we seem to need it. But you may be right about the human nature of relgoius truth, its simply a mirror of ourselves and our own perceptions.
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Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2008 at 15:34
Even from an agnsotic point of view, there is a huge difference. Religous systems evolved slowly over thousands of years and thus developed some very profound insights into human nature. Communism, in contrast, attempted to create a "religion" while eliminating this evolutionary process. The result was a "religion" based on very artificial precepts and very limited insights of human nature.
Religion is far more profund that and contains deep insights into psychology, sociology, justice, fairness, social responsibilities, morality etc. All these contribute to stable societies.
The truth that I am talikg about is not Galleleo proved "X" and the Catholic church rejected it. Rather, the truth that religous systems offer is system of social stability.
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Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2008 at 01:08
I completely agree with your logic, but disagree with your contradictory application thereof. While Photius is considered a saint in the Orthodox churches, he is not in the Catholic church. Although it should be noted you may find arguement here from some Eastern Catholic churches; which would be the topic of an entirely new thread. Dvornik has shed some much needed light on Photius for the West that Hergenrother may have missed; it should also be noted he died in communion with Rome. It would be far better a situation to propose a saint that is acknowledged by most; which leads me to my proposal: St. Michael the Archangel. He's recognized by Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish, and Musilm. He's the patron saint of Police officers I believe. Im guessing Moderators should feel some sort of connection. ------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |