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Where was the ancient "Gaul" located?
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Slayertplsko View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 20:29
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Misreading ancient sources, mixing up Gaeli with Galli
At least Galli is more similar to Gaeli than Gaul, isn't it?


I don't mean it as any kind of offence Cyrus, but this is the same nonsense as when you were comparing 'Slav' to sakalaba or what it was. Simply, both Slav and Gaul are modern English varieties, you don't want to say that ancient Gauls spoke English, do you?
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 20:05
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


just from an European country to another, not from Asia, AfrCensored, yes?!


No, there were plenty of those as well. Doesn't make it right to invent some based only on name comparisons.

The problem is just that you believe in no sources, even modern websites!


I don't give much credit to the sources you have presented, no. Try to choose some more modern sources instead of posting pseudo-historians, 19th century propagandists and similar.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 18:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
Misreading ancient sources, mixing up Gaeli with Galli
At least Galli is more similar to Gaeli than Gaul, isn't it?
Depends what alphabet you are using.
You even misunderstand in this very post. No one has been talking about Copernican science in the ancient time. Read this carefully: the Greeks knew the world was round, and even measured it's circumference.
Yes but round like a circle not a sphere, so they believed the world to be flatround and the oceans encircle it, I'm sure you knew but what does it prove?
Nope, they belived it to be spherical. As wikipedia has it:
The modern belief that especially medieval Christianity believed in a flat earth has been referred to as The Myth of the Flat Earth. In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history. Recent scholarship has argued that "with extraordinary [sic] few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat" and that the prevailing view was of a spherical earth.


Edited by gcle2003 - 03-Sep-2008 at 18:58
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 18:50
There were plenty of migrations, no doubt about that.

just from an European country to another, not from Asia, AfrCensored, yes?!
 
You are inventing things though.
What did I invent? The problem is just that you believe in no sources, even modern websites!
 
 
 
Misreading ancient sources, mixing up Gaeli with Galli
At least Galli is more similar to Gaeli than Gaul, isn't it?
 
basing arguments on pre-industrial propagandists and never criticise your sources.
I think those poor pre-industrial scholars didn't know that modern European would hate to hear that their ancestors came from Asia!
 
Stop doing those things and I promise people will start listening to you more.
Unfortunately I couldn't find any source which proves something that you want!
 
You even misunderstand in this very post. No one has been talking about Copernican science in the ancient time. Read this carefully: the Greeks knew the world was round, and even measured it's circumference.
Yes but round like a circle not a sphere, so they believed the world to be flatround and the oceans encircle it, I'm sure you knew but what does it prove?


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 03-Sep-2008 at 18:52
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 12:02
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Cyrus admit it! You're joking! I know you are.


In that case I'll make a thread and declare myself the biggest fool of this forum. Embarrassed
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 11:45
Cyrus admit it! You're joking! I know you are.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 11:01
Presumably there's a connection between 'gaels', 'gauls' and 'girls'. Half the human race is therefore Persian.
 
 
 
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 08:55
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Styrbiorn, it seems you believe there has never been any migration to Europe and all peoples of this continent have alwyas lived there! It is really interesting for me that you prefer to believe the existence of the Copernican science in the ancient times but not a Gaulish presence in the east of the Caspian sea!!



There were plenty of migrations, no doubt about that. You are inventing things though. Misreading ancient sources, mixing up Gaeli with Galli, basing arguments on pre-industrial propagandists and never criticise your sources. Stop doing those things and I promise people will start listening to you more.

You even misunderstand in this very post. No one has been talking about Copernican science in the ancient time. Read this carefully: the Greeks knew the world was round, and even measured it's circumference.



Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think it is because you learn new things here! Wink Lets compare Celtic and Tucharian numerlas:
 

Or maybe we are amusing him ;)
Tocharian and Celtic languages are both Indo-European...  this seems like a repeat.

I have a feeling this is turning out to be yet another Scythian thread.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 03-Sep-2008 at 09:22
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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 07:46

It is interesting to read this thread too: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=18127


A Wakhi girl in northwestern China

One to Eleven in Wakhi language: http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Audio/Wahi/SKWahi2.qt


North-eastern Iran
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 06:31
I think it is because you learn new things here! Wink Lets compare Celtic and Tucharian numerlas:
 

Proto Celtic
1. oinos -> Tocharian "sas"? / Gaulish "oino"
2. d(w)oßu -> Tocharian "wu" / Gaulish "do"
3. treis -> Tocharian "tre" / Gaulish "tri"
4. kwetwar(s) -> Tocharian "sêtwar" / Gaulish "petvar"
5.  kwenkwe -> Tocharian "paànþ" / Gaulish "pinpe"
6. swe(k)s -> Tocharian "sŽaàk" / Gaulish "suekos"
7. sektnŽ -> Tocharian "sŽpaàt" / Gaulish "sextam"
8. okto -> Tocharian "okaàt" / Gaulish "oxtu"
9. nauin -> Tocharian "nþu" / Gaulish "nau"
10. deknŽ -> Tocharian "sêaàk" / Gaulish "decam"
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 22:28
Oh guys, sorry to inject here, I just wanted to say I love this forumLOL
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 21:05
http://www.giftofireland.com/Celticmummies.html 
 
The mystery of China’s celtic mummies
 
Solid as a warrior of the Caledonii tribe, the man’s hair is reddish brown flecked with grey, framing high cheekbones, a long nose, full lips and a ginger beard. When he lived three thousand years ago, he stood six feet tall, and was buried wearing a red twill tunic and tartan leggings. He looks like a Bronze Age European. In fact, he’s every inch a Celt. Even his DNA says so.
His discovery provides an unexpected connection between east and west and some valuable clues to early European history.
 
Tocharian language is said to be closest to Celtic language: http://ib.frath.net/w/Tocharian do you agree?


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Sep-2008 at 21:12
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 20:20

Styrbiorn, it seems you believe there has never been any migration to Europe and all peoples of this continent have alwyas lived there! It is really interesting for me that you prefer to believe the existence of the Copernican science in the ancient times but not a Gaulish presence in the east of the Caspian sea!!
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 19:59
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There is certianly a relation between Gaels, Gauls, Gallians, Galatians,

And between Welsh, Irish, Scots and Bretons but they don't have similar names.
On the other hand the Doges of Venice had nothing much to do with the dogs at the Kennel Club.
... which are all the names of Celtic peoples, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt : their root may be the Common Celtic *galno, meaning 'power' or 'strength'.

As you read in this book: Chambers's Information for the People,

Written in 1849, and a popularisation even then. Studies of PIE were only just beginning and I doubt if anyone at Chambers new anything about them.
"The Celtic nation possessed, a space of country extending from the Pillars of Hercules [Gibraltar] to Asia Minor and beyond the Caspian. (east of the Caspian sea)" and this book: The Annual Review and History of Literature says "The Celtic tongue once prevailed from Gibraltar to the Caspian.
 
Well if you take that literally then a lot of Gaels were not Celts. It is of course trivially wrong. Portugal and parts of Spain and Ireland are west of Gibraltar.
And The Annual Review and History of Literature dates to 1805 for Pete's sake. We've come on a little from then.
 
Anyway Celts aren't Gaels, though Gaels are usually considered Celts (pace Paul). Gaels are the westernmost of the Celtic peoples. In the early studies of Indo-European studies, Gaelic was not even considered to be a Celtic or I-E language, though it is now.
 
 The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."
 
It would be very strange if it did. Migrations usually spread out in more than one direction (where geography permits).
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 13:40
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Plinly certainly knew Gaulish people who lived around the Caspian sea, of course it seems he has called them Gaels and thought they are the same Cadusians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii) who have been mentioned by Greeks.

-> Gaeli, quos Graeci Cadusios appellavere (Book 6, Chapter 18)

sources:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0138&query=page%3D%23431
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/6*.html



Gaels are not Gauls. Gaul is "Galli" in Latin, as far as I know. Pliny does not say those people are Gallic! You are making things up again. Again I suggest you to stop the word plays.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You should read footnotes, there are some problems, if we consider "Gaul" as "European Gaul", for example no.2 says "It is clear that if India lies to the west of Gaul, it cannot be Pliny's meaning that it is refreshed by the west wind blowing to it from Gaul."

What is the reason that Pliny says that Alexander and others sailed from India to the Caspian sea?

 The Romans considered the Caspian sea to be a bay of a Northern ocean, thus it could be possible to sail from India. Further, he never says that Alexander sailed that way (you make many similar reading mistakes, maybe you skim everything through without understanding?). As for your question, maybe you should follow your own suggestion and read the last foot note.


Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Is it important that I agree or not? Do you have a better hypothesis, other than what most scholars believe?


You haven't started with source criticism yet, I presume?


Edited by Styrbiorn - 02-Sep-2008 at 13:40
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Is it important that I agree or not? Do you have a better hypothesis, other than what most scholars believe?

http://www.fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Celt : The Celtic language family is a branch of the larger Indo-European family, which leads some scholars to a hypothesis that the original speakers of the Celtic proto-language may have arisen in the Pontic-Caspian steppes.
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 12:11
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

As you read in this book: Chambers's Information for the People, "The Celtic nation possessed, a space of country extending from the Pillars of Hercules [Gibraltar] to Asia Minor and beyond the Caspian. (east of the Caspian sea)" and this book: The Annual Review and History of Literature says "The Celtic tongue once prevailed from Gibraltar to the Caspian. The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."


Do you also agree on the author's conclusion about the reason behind the "love of the Negroes for night dancing"?
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 11:47
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."
Ah, that's the way it goes. I was waiting for this statement of yours.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 07:33

There is certianly a relation between Gaels, Gauls, Gallians, Galatians, ... which are all the names of Celtic peoples, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt : their root may be the Common Celtic *galno, meaning 'power' or 'strength'.

As you read in this book: Chambers's Information for the People, "The Celtic nation possessed, a space of country extending from the Pillars of Hercules [Gibraltar] to Asia Minor and beyond the Caspian. (east of the Caspian sea)" and this book: The Annual Review and History of Literature says "The Celtic tongue once prevailed from Gibraltar to the Caspian. The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Sep-2008 at 12:45
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 19:22
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Plinly certainly knew Gaulish people who lived around the Caspian sea, of course it seems he has called them Gaels and thought they are the same Cadusians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii) who have been mentioned by Greeks.

-> Gaeli, quos Graeci Cadusios appellavere (Book 6, Chapter 18)

sources:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0138&query=page%3D%23431
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/6*.html

Gaels are not Gauls and Gauls are not Gaels. The Gaels lived (and still do) in the British
Isles. The Gauls lived on the mainland. Pliny may have thought there were people named Gaeli who were also called Cadusii by the Greeks, and indeed there may have been some. But they weren't the same people called Gaels in the West (actually did the Romans use 'Gaeli' for the Gaels in fact? I'm not sure.)
 
Anyway, flattering though it may be to be assumed not to need it, the standards of this forum require you to provide a translation of substantial foreign language texts.
Unfortunately there is not much info about Gaulish language in Gaulistan province of Iran,
Probably because there is no Gaulish language isn't Golestan. Incidentally it would be good if you could make your mind up whether you are talking about Gaul or Gaels.
I hope this project give us some info:

http://www.hrelp.org/grants/projects/index.php?projid=150

Documentation of the language and lifestyle of the Galesh, province of Golestan, Iran
Helen Jahani, Uppsala University

Project Summary:
The Galesh are herdsmen in the Alborz mountains. Their total number is unknown, but diminishing rapidly due to the modernisation of the Iranian society. This project attempts to find out if the language of the Eastern Galesh in Golestan is similar to any of the languages of the settled population in the area or if it should be regarded as a language of its own. In Galeshi there are many terms for husbandry and dairy production, which are not found among the agriculturalists. Since the lifestyle of the Galesh is severely threatened this project will document important aspects of it before it is too late.

I note there is nothing there to give any reason to believe that the Galesh are either Gauls or Gaels.
 
By the way how's your project coming alonfg to prove that that India was first settled by peoples from America, since they are both called Indians?
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 01-Sep-2008 at 19:24
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