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Where was the ancient "Gaul" located?

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Topic: Where was the ancient "Gaul" located?
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Subject: Where was the ancient "Gaul" located?
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 11:43
Lets see first what Pliny the Elder says:
 
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20 - source (Book 6, Chapter 21)
 
But we come now to nations as to which there is a more general agreement among writers. Where the chain of Emodus http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#fn1 - 1 rises, the nations of India begin, which borders not only on the Eastern sea, but on the Southern as well, which we have already mentioned http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#fn2 - 2 as being called the Indian Ocean. That part which faces the east runs in a straight line a distance of eighteen hundred and seventy-five miles until it comes to a bend, at which the Indian Ocean begins. Here it takes a turn to the south, and continues to run in that direction a distance of two thousand four hundred and seventy-five miles, according to http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Eratosthenes&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Eratosthenes , as far as the river http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Indus&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Indus , the boundary of India on the west. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#fn3 - 3 Many authors have represented the entire length of the Indian coast as being forty days' and nights' sail, and as being, from north to south, two thousand eight hundred and fifty miles. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Agrippa&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Agrippa states its length to be three thousand three hundred miles, and its breadth, two thousand three hundred. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Posidonius&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Posidonius has given its measurement as lying from north-east to south-east, placing it opposite to http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Gaul&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Gaul , of which country he has given the measurement as lying from north-west to south-west; making the whole of India to lie due west of http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Gaul&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Gaul . Hence, as he has shewn by undoubted proofs, India lying opposite to http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Gaul&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Gaul must be refreshed [p. 2039] by the blowing of that wind, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#fn4 - 4 and derive its salubrity there- from.
 
In this region, the appearance of the heavens is totally changed, and quite different is the rising of the stars; there are two summers in the year, and two harvests, while the winter intervenes between them during the time that the Etesian http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#fn5 - 5 winds are blowing: during our winter too, they enjoy light breezes, and their seas are navigable. In this country there are nations and cities which would be found to be quite innumerable, if a person should attempt to enumerate them. For it has been explored not only by the arms of http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Alexander%20the%20Great&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Alexander the Great and of the kings who succeeded him, by http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Seleucus&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Seleucus and http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Antiochus&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Antiochus , who sailed round even to the Caspian and Hyrcanian Sea, and by http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Patrocles&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Patrocles , http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#fn6 - 6 the admiral of their fleet, but has been treated of by several other http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Greek&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Greek writers who resided at the courts of Indian kings, such, for instance, as http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Megasthenes&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Megasthenes , and by http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Dionysius&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Dionysius , who was sent thither by http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Philadelphus&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Philadelphus , expressly for the purpose: all of whom have enlarged upon the power and vast resources of these nations.
 

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#anch1 - 1  The http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Emodi%20Montes&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Emodi Montes (so called probably from the Indian hemâdri, or the "golden") are supposed to have formed that portion of the great lateral branch of the Indian http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Caucasus&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Caucasus , the range of the Himalaya, which extends along Nepaul, and probably as far as Bhotan.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#anch2 - 2  In c. 14 of the present Book.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#anch3 - 3  The whole of this passage seems very intricate, and it is difficult to make sense of it. His meaning, however, is probably this: that the coast of India, running from extreme north-east to south-east, relatively to http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Greece&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Greece , the country of http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Eratosthenes&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Eratosthenes , is exactly opposite to the coast of http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Gaul&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Gaul , running from extreme north-west to south-west--India thus lying due west of http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Gaul&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Gaul , without any intervening land. This, it will be remembered, was the notion of Columbus, when contemplating the possibility of a western passage to India.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#anch4 - 4  This appears also to be somewhat obscure. It is clear that if India lies to the west of http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Gaul&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Gaul , it cannot be Pliny's meaning that it is refreshed by the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=west%3C%2Fi%3E%20wind&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - west wind blowing to it from http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Gaul&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Gaul . He may possibly mean that the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=west%20wind&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - west wind , which is so refreshing to the west of http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Europe&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Europe , and http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Gaul&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Gaul in particular, first sweeps over India, and thus becomes productive of that salubrity which http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Posidonius&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Posidonius seems to have discovered in India, but for which we look in vain at the present day. Amid, however, such multiplied chances of a corrupt text, it is impossible to assume any very definite position as to his probable meaning. The http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=French&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - French translators offer no assistance in solving the difficulty, and Holland renders it, "This http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=west%20wind&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - west wind which from behind http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Gaul&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Gaul bloweth upon India, is very healthsome," &c.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#anch5 - 5  As to the Etesian winds, see 1. ii. c. 48.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137;query=chapter%3D%23247;loc=6.20#anch6 - 6  In the geographical work which http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Patrocles&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Patrocles seems to have published, he is supposed to have given some account of the countries bordering on the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Caspian%20Sea&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Caspian Sea , and there is little doubt that, like other writers of that period, he regarded that sea as a gulf or inlet of the Septentrional Ocean, and probably maintained the possibility of sailing thither by sea from the Indian Ocean. This statement, however, seems to have been strangely misinterpreted by Pliny in his present assertion, that http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Patrocles&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman - Patrocles had himself accomplished this circumnavigation.



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Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 11:44
I have not read the post, but Iran? A wild guess!


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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 11:48
Did Pilny mean Gaul-istan (Golestan) province in the north-east of Iran? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province

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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 11:49
Originally posted by Sparten

I have not read the post, but Iran? A wild guess!
Exactly! LOL


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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 11:51
Originally posted by Sparten

I have not read the post, but Iran? A wild guess!


Actually not, his source just says that you can go West to India as well as East - ie Gaul is exactly where it always has been.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Did Pilny mean Gaul-istan (Golestan) province in the north-east of Iran? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province


No, he doesn't. He means the Roman Gaul, ie Gallia. Pliny knew the world was round.


Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:11
is it possible that he refers to a place where the Galat Gauls were installed?

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I am a free donkey!


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:21
No, he doesn't. He means the Roman Gaul, ie Gallia. Pliny knew the world was round.
 
I'm sure you know that Pliny lived almost 2,000 years ago, 16 centuries before Galilei, yes?
 
Golestan is in the east of the Caspian sea, please read footnote number 6, it is obvious that Pliny thought the Caspian sea is connected to the Indian Ocean, so Golestan could be in the west of India.


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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:26
You didn't have to wait until Gallileo to know the world is round:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Centuries before Pliny was born, Greeks were able to even measure the circumference of the earth with remarkable accuracy. Who would bother to measure circumference, without knowing the spherical nature of our planet?





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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:32
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

No, he doesn't. He means the Roman Gaul, ie Gallia. Pliny knew the world was round.
 
I'm sure you know that Pliny lived almost 2,000 years ago, 16 centuries before Galilei, yes?
 
Golestan is in the east of the Caspian sea, please read footnote number 6, it is obvious that Pliny thought the Caspian sea is connected to the Indian Ocean, so Golestan could be in the west of India.


Yes, but you must have missed that Erathostenes lived 19 centuries before Galilei.Wink

Anyhow, it is quite an exagerration to say that Pliny knew the world was round. My point was that he meant what we call France, and say that India stretches around. The Romans were more into how to get to places, not to put them on a map. Pliny wrote Gallia in the Latin original, so it's pretty clear what he is referring to. If he meant something else, he would have specified it - he was writing for a Roman audience and for them Gallia meant Roman Gaul.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:56
Its been known the world is round since.................. even before the Greeks. Anyone who went sailing, or lived on a mountain can tell you that.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 13:12
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Did Pilny mean Gaul-istan (Golestan) province in the north-east of Iran? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province
 
No.
 
Gaul consisted of Italy north of the Rubicon, and Europe west of the Rhine and north of the Pyrenees. Certainly Caesar never conquered Golestan and divided it into three parts Smile
 
Some Gauls did migrate late on into Asia Minor and where they settled is called Galatia. Maybe they also colonised part of Iran too, so I guess if you want to argue that Persians are descendants of Gauls, you may have a case.
 
PS It's seems to be obvious that, postulating a K->Dj sound shift at some point, Kerman and Kermanshah were settled by Germans, whereas a group of people from Newcastle colonised Kordestan. But I hate to think what kind of ladies originally populated the various Khorasans - presumably apart from their vocational status they were also Japanese?


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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 15:00
Originally posted by Constantine XI

You didn't have to wait until Gallileo to know the world is round:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Centuries before Pliny was born, Greeks were able to even measure the circumference of the earth with remarkable accuracy. Who would bother to measure circumference, without knowing the spherical nature of our planet?

ok, according to your link, this is 19th century reconstruction of Eratosthenes's map of the known world:
 


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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 15:27
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Constantine XI

You didn't have to wait until Gallileo to know the world is round:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Centuries before Pliny was born, Greeks were able to even measure the circumference of the earth with remarkable accuracy. Who would bother to measure circumference, without knowing the spherical nature of our planet?

ok, according to your link, this is 19th century reconstruction of Eratosthenes's map of the known world:
 


That is not problematic. Eratosthenes could not have filled in the corners of such a map because they frankly had to use guesswork. They drew only what they knew. The fact they considered their known world to be surrounded by ocean is technically correct.

If they were to make a model of their known world, with it being part of a globe, how big or small should their "known" part be compared to the rest of the "unkown" globe? Clearly this type of problem meant they could only draw a map which was a two dimensional representation of what they did definitely know about - with the edges of the known world unsurprisingly distorted and surrounded by ocean.


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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 16:42

Plinly certainly knew Gaulish people who lived around the Caspian sea, of course it seems he has called them Gaels and thought they are the same Cadusians ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii ) who have been mentioned by Greeks.

-> Gaeli, quos Graeci Cadusios appellavere (Book 6, Chapter 18)

sources:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0138&query=page%3D%23431 - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0138&query=page%3D%23431
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/6*.html - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/6*.html

Unfortunately there is not much info about Gaulish language in Gaulistan province of Iran, I hope this project give us some info:

http://www.hrelp.org/grants/projects/index.php?projid=150 - http://www.hrelp.org/grants/projects/index.php?projid=150

Documentation of the language and lifestyle of the Galesh, province of Golestan, Iran
Helen Jahani, Uppsala University

Project Summary:
The Galesh are herdsmen in the Alborz mountains. Their total number is unknown, but diminishing rapidly due to the modernisation of the Iranian society. This project attempts to find out if the language of the Eastern Galesh in Golestan is similar to any of the languages of the settled population in the area or if it should be regarded as a language of its own. In Galeshi there are many terms for husbandry and dairy production, which are not found among the agriculturalists. Since the lifestyle of the Galesh is severely threatened this project will document important aspects of it before it is too late.



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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 16:44
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Constantine XI

You didn't have to wait until Gallileo to know the world is round:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Centuries before Pliny was born, Greeks were able to even measure the circumference of the earth with remarkable accuracy. Who would bother to measure circumference, without knowing the spherical nature of our planet?

ok, according to your link, this is 19th century reconstruction of Eratosthenes's map of the known world:
 



This map completely consistent with the statement that India is to the West of (Roman) Gaul, assuming the world is round. :)


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 19:14

You should read footnotes, there are some problems, if we consider "Gaul" as "European Gaul", for example no.2 says "It is clear that if India lies to the west of Gaul, it cannot be Pliny's meaning that it is refreshed by the west wind blowing to it from Gaul."

What is the reason that Pliny says that Alexander and others sailed from India to the Caspian sea?

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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 19:22
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Plinly certainly knew Gaulish people who lived around the Caspian sea, of course it seems he has called them Gaels and thought they are the same Cadusians ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii ) who have been mentioned by Greeks.

-> Gaeli, quos Graeci Cadusios appellavere (Book 6, Chapter 18)

sources:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0138&query=page%3D%23431 - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0138&query=page%3D%23431
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/6*.html - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/6*.html

Gaels are not Gauls and Gauls are not Gaels. The Gaels lived (and still do) in the British
Isles. The Gauls lived on the mainland. Pliny may have thought there were people named Gaeli who were also called Cadusii by the Greeks, and indeed there may have been some. But they weren't the same people called Gaels in the West (actually did the Romans use 'Gaeli' for the Gaels in fact? I'm not sure.)
 
Anyway, flattering though it may be to be assumed not to need it, the standards of this forum require you to provide a translation of substantial foreign language texts.
Unfortunately there is not much info about Gaulish language in Gaulistan province of Iran,
Probably because there is no Gaulish language isn't Golestan. Incidentally it would be good if you could make your mind up whether you are talking about Gaul or Gaels.
I hope this project give us some info:

http://www.hrelp.org/grants/projects/index.php?projid=150 - http://www.hrelp.org/grants/projects/index.php?projid=150

Documentation of the language and lifestyle of the Galesh, province of Golestan, Iran
Helen Jahani, Uppsala University

Project Summary:
The Galesh are herdsmen in the Alborz mountains. Their total number is unknown, but diminishing rapidly due to the modernisation of the Iranian society. This project attempts to find out if the language of the Eastern Galesh in Golestan is similar to any of the languages of the settled population in the area or if it should be regarded as a language of its own. In Galeshi there are many terms for husbandry and dairy production, which are not found among the agriculturalists. Since the lifestyle of the Galesh is severely threatened this project will document important aspects of it before it is too late.

I note there is nothing there to give any reason to believe that the Galesh are either Gauls or Gaels.
 
By the way how's your project coming alonfg to prove that that India was first settled by peoples from America, since they are both called Indians?
 


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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 07:33

There is certianly a relation between Gaels, Gauls, Gallians, Galatians, ... which are all the names of Celtic peoples, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt : their root may be the Common Celtic *galno, meaning 'power' or 'strength'.

As you read in this book: http://books.google.com/books?id=eGAMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA6&dq=celtic+caspian - Chambers's Information for the People , "The Celtic nation possessed, a space of country extending from the Pillars of Hercules [Gibraltar] to Asia Minor and beyond the Caspian. (east of the Caspian sea)" and this book: http://books.google.com/books?id=VjYCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA230&dq=celtic+caspian&lr=&as_brr=1 - The Annual Review and History of Literature  says "The Celtic tongue once prevailed from Gibraltar to the Caspian. The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."



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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 11:47
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."
Ah, that's the way it goes. I was waiting for this statement of yours.


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 12:11
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

As you read in this book: http://books.google.com/books?id=eGAMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA6&dq=celtic+caspian - Chambers's Information for the People , "The Celtic nation possessed, a space of country extending from the Pillars of Hercules [Gibraltar] to Asia Minor and beyond the Caspian. (east of the Caspian sea)" and this book: - The Annual Review and History of Literature says "The Celtic tongue once prevailed from Gibraltar to the Caspian. The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."


Do you also agree on the author's conclusion about the reason behind the "love of the Negroes for night dancing"?


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 13:08

Is it important that I agree or not? Do you have a better hypothesis, other than what most scholars believe?

http://www.fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Celt - http://www.fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Celt : The Celtic language family is a branch of the larger Indo-European family, which leads some scholars to a hypothesis that the original speakers of the Celtic proto-language may have arisen in the Pontic-Caspian steppes.



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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 13:40
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Plinly certainly knew Gaulish people who lived around the Caspian sea, of course it seems he has called them Gaels and thought they are the same Cadusians ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii ) who have been mentioned by Greeks.

-> Gaeli, quos Graeci Cadusios appellavere (Book 6, Chapter 18)

sources:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0138&query=page%3D%23431 - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0138&query=page%3D%23431
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/6*.html - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/6*.html



Gaels are not Gauls. Gaul is "Galli" in Latin, as far as I know. Pliny does not say those people are Gallic! You are making things up again. Again I suggest you to stop the word plays.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You should read footnotes, there are some problems, if we consider "Gaul" as "European Gaul", for example no.2 says "It is clear that if India lies to the west of Gaul, it cannot be Pliny's meaning that it is refreshed by the west wind blowing to it from Gaul."

What is the reason that Pliny says that Alexander and others sailed from India to the Caspian sea?

 The Romans considered the Caspian sea to be a bay of a Northern ocean, thus it could be possible to sail from India. Further, he never says that Alexander sailed that way (you make many similar reading mistakes, maybe you skim everything through without understanding?). As for your question, maybe you should follow your own suggestion and read the last foot note.


Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Is it important that I agree or not? Do you have a better hypothesis, other than what most scholars believe?


You haven't started with source criticism yet, I presume?


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 19:59
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There is certianly a relation between Gaels, Gauls, Gallians, Galatians,

And between Welsh, Irish, Scots and Bretons but they don't have similar names.
On the other hand the Doges of Venice had nothing much to do with the dogs at the Kennel Club.
... which are all the names of Celtic peoples, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt : their root may be the Common Celtic *galno, meaning 'power' or 'strength'.

As you read in this book: http://books.google.com/books?id=eGAMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA6&dq=celtic+caspian - Chambers's Information for the People ,

Written in 1849, and a popularisation even then. Studies of PIE were only just beginning and I doubt if anyone at Chambers new anything about them.
"The Celtic nation possessed, a space of country extending from the Pillars of Hercules [Gibraltar] to Asia Minor and beyond the Caspian. (east of the Caspian sea)" and this book: http://books.google.com/books?id=VjYCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA230&dq=celtic+caspian&lr=&as_brr=1 - The Annual Review and History of Literature  says "The Celtic tongue once prevailed from Gibraltar to the Caspian.
 
Well if you take that literally then a lot of Gaels were not Celts. It is of course trivially wrong. Portugal and parts of Spain and Ireland are west of Gibraltar.
And http://books.google.com/books?id=VjYCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA230&dq=celtic+caspian&lr=&as_brr=1 - The Annual Review and History of Literature  dates to 1805 for Pete's sake. We've come on a little from then.
 
Anyway Celts aren't Gaels, though Gaels are usually considered Celts (pace Paul). Gaels are the westernmost of the Celtic peoples. In the early studies of Indo-European studies, Gaelic was not even considered to be a Celtic or I-E language, though it is now.
 
 The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."
 
It would be very strange if it did. Migrations usually spread out in more than one direction (where geography permits).


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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 20:20

Styrbiorn, it seems you believe there has never been any migration to Europe and all peoples of this continent have alwyas lived there! It is really interesting for me that you prefer to believe the existence of the Copernican science in the ancient times but not a Gaulish presence in the east of the Caspian sea!!



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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 21:05
http://www.giftofireland.com/Celticmummies.html - http://www.giftofireland.com/Celticmummies.html  
 
The mystery of China’s celtic mummies
 
Solid as a warrior of the Caledonii tribe, the man’s hair is reddish brown flecked with grey, framing high cheekbones, a long nose, full lips and a ginger beard. When he lived three thousand years ago, he stood six feet tall, and was buried wearing a red twill tunic and tartan leggings. He looks like a Bronze Age European. In fact, he’s every inch a Celt. Even his DNA says so.
His discovery provides an unexpected connection between east and west and some valuable clues to early European history.
 
Tocharian language is said to be closest to Celtic language: http://ib.frath.net/w/Tocharian - http://ib.frath.net/w/Tocharian do you agree?


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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 22:28
Oh guys, sorry to inject here, I just wanted to say I love this forumLOL

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A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 06:31
I think it is because you learn new things here! Wink Lets compare Celtic and Tucharian numerlas:
 
Celtic Numerals: http://members.tripod.com/~rjschellen/CelticNums.htm - http://members.tripod.com/~rjschellen/CelticNums.htm
Tocharian: http://members.tripod.com/~rjschellen/OtherIENums.htm - http://members.tripod.com/~rjschellen/OtherIENums.htm

Proto Celtic
1. oinos -> Tocharian "sas"? / Gaulish "oino"
2. d(w)oßu -> Tocharian "wu" / Gaulish "do"
3. treis -> Tocharian "tre" / Gaulish "tri"
4. kwetwar(s) -> Tocharian "sêtwar" / Gaulish "petvar"
5.  kwenkwe -> Tocharian "paànþ" / Gaulish "pinpe"
6. swe(k)s -> Tocharian "sŽaàk" / Gaulish "suekos"
7. sektnŽ -> Tocharian "sŽpaàt" / Gaulish "sextam"
8. okto -> Tocharian "okaàt" / Gaulish "oxtu"
9. nauin -> Tocharian "nþu" / Gaulish "nau"
10. deknŽ -> Tocharian "sêaàk" / Gaulish "decam"



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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 07:46

It is interesting to read this thread too: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=18127 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=18127


A Wakhi girl in northwestern China

One to Eleven in Wakhi language: http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Audio/Wahi/SKWahi2.qt - http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Audio/Wahi/SKWahi2.qt


North-eastern Iran



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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 08:55
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Styrbiorn, it seems you believe there has never been any migration to Europe and all peoples of this continent have alwyas lived there! It is really interesting for me that you prefer to believe the existence of the Copernican science in the ancient times but not a Gaulish presence in the east of the Caspian sea!!



There were plenty of migrations, no doubt about that. You are inventing things though. Misreading ancient sources, mixing up Gaeli with Galli, basing arguments on pre-industrial propagandists and never criticise your sources. Stop doing those things and I promise people will start listening to you more.

You even misunderstand in this very post. No one has been talking about Copernican science in the ancient time. Read this carefully: the Greeks knew the world was round, and even measured it's circumference.



Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think it is because you learn new things here! Wink Lets compare Celtic and Tucharian numerlas:
 

Or maybe we are amusing him ;)
Tocharian and Celtic languages are both Indo-European...  this seems like a repeat.

I have a feeling this is turning out to be yet another Scythian thread.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 11:01
Presumably there's a connection between 'gaels', 'gauls' and 'girls'. Half the human race is therefore Persian.
 
 
 


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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 11:45
Cyrus admit it! You're joking! I know you are.

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A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 12:02
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Cyrus admit it! You're joking! I know you are.


In that case I'll make a thread and declare myself the biggest fool of this forum. Embarrassed


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 18:50
There were plenty of migrations, no doubt about that.

just from an European country to another, not from Asia, AfrCensored, yes?!
 
You are inventing things though.
What did I invent? The problem is just that you believe in no sources, even modern websites!
 
http://celtopedia.druidcircle.net/index.php?title=Celt - http://celtopedia.druidcircle.net/index.php?title=Celt
 
 
Misreading ancient sources, mixing up Gaeli with Galli
At least Galli is more similar to Gaeli than Gaul, isn't it?
 
basing arguments on pre-industrial propagandists and never criticise your sources.
I think those poor pre-industrial scholars didn't know that modern European would hate to hear that their ancestors came from Asia!
 
Stop doing those things and I promise people will start listening to you more.
Unfortunately I couldn't find any source which proves something that you want!
 
You even misunderstand in this very post. No one has been talking about Copernican science in the ancient time. Read this carefully: the Greeks knew the world was round, and even measured it's circumference.
Yes but round like a circle not a sphere, so they believed the world to be flatround and the oceans encircle it, I'm sure you knew but what does it prove?


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 18:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
Misreading ancient sources, mixing up Gaeli with Galli
At least Galli is more similar to Gaeli than Gaul, isn't it?
Depends what alphabet you are using.
You even misunderstand in this very post. No one has been talking about Copernican science in the ancient time. Read this carefully: the Greeks knew the world was round, and even measured it's circumference.
Yes but round like a circle not a sphere, so they believed the world to be flatround and the oceans encircle it, I'm sure you knew but what does it prove?
Nope, they belived it to be spherical. As wikipedia has it:
The modern belief that especially medieval http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity - Christianity believed in a flat earth has been referred to as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_mythology - The Myth of the Flat Earth . In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history. Recent scholarship has argued that "with extraordinary [sic] few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat" and that the prevailing view was of a spherical earth.


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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 20:05
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


just from an European country to another, not from Asia, AfrCensored, yes?!


No, there were plenty of those as well. Doesn't make it right to invent some based only on name comparisons.

The problem is just that you believe in no sources, even modern websites!


I don't give much credit to the sources you have presented, no. Try to choose some more modern sources instead of posting pseudo-historians, 19th century propagandists and similar.


Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 20:29
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Misreading ancient sources, mixing up Gaeli with Galli
At least Galli is more similar to Gaeli than Gaul, isn't it?


I don't mean it as any kind of offence Cyrus, but this is the same nonsense as when you were comparing 'Slav' to sakalaba or what it was. Simply, both Slav and Gaul are modern English varieties, you don't want to say that ancient Gauls spoke English, do you?


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A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.


Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 20:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Did Pilny mean Gaul-istan (Golestan) province in the north-east of Iran? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province


Another Saka-gerrak?? When are the Slavs on turn?? Perhaps Republika Polska would be in fact pol-saka??


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A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.


Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 20:46
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There is certianly a relation between Gaels, Gauls, Gallians, Galatians, ...


Who were Gallians??

Anyway, I was thinking about opening a threat to prove that Persians come from Slovak mountains...perhaps when I get into such a silly mood...


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A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2008 at 05:10

I say it again that Pliny knew there were some Gaulish people beyond the Caspian sea, so he thought the world should be similar to it:

... For it has been explored not only by the arms of Alexander the Great and of the kings who succeeded him, by Seleucus and Antiochus, who sailed round even to the Caspian and Hyrcanian Sea ...

It is obvious if you read this chapter: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137&layout=&loc=6.39 - Book 6, Chapter 39 about the earth division into parallel circles.



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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2008 at 05:21
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There is certianly a relation between Gaels, Gauls, Gallians, Galatians, ...


Who were Gallians??

Anyway, I was thinking about opening a threat to prove that Persians come from Slovak mountains...perhaps when I get into such a silly mood...
I myself did it: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=25344 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=25344


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 10-May-2010 at 14:03
Wow! Cyrus, you sure had a lot of good friends back then? If they were your friends, then you certainly do not need enemies!

But, I can go along with you at least within some limits! As you should well know, by now, I also love "word play(s)!" And, I consider that the writers of the 15th century CE and later, also loved it! It seems that they were always playing a game with history, and its sovereigns, etc.!

But, I would, as you know, take an alternative view of this situation with so many names of people and places, whereby the word or a close sounding or spelled word, described the "Gauls!" Therefore, I propose a reduction of our currently accepted time-line by about 2,000 years in some cases, and those quotes supposedly made by certain persons from the distant past, should be moved up in time to some period starting from about the 12th Century CE, to the 18th Century CE!

Thus, I propose that these "ancient groups" or "places", are not a product of the distant past at all! Instead these words, like Gaul, Galata, Gallica, etc., represent the movement of the "Franks" from West to East! I.E., the period of what we now call the crusades, and later!

But, it is a topic not well considered to be discussed here!

It is way more radical than your view(s)!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 10-May-2010 at 14:55
is there any  scientific evidence that modern human beings are comming out of africa or it is just a speculation?
i see that many modern earopeans beliving they have been living in europe from the begining and it has never been people movement around the world!!!
i don't know what to believe any more!!
there are even afrocenterist saying the pure human race is in africa and european and asian are a mix of homo-sapiens and neandertals which lived in europe!!!
 is it true that we are all mix of nean+ sapiensShocked it is why they have hair on their chest and rest of body like neandertals!!
anyway i am a realy hairy creatureEmbarrassed and do not dare any more to send more  DNA tests and become classed as ½ neandertalUnhappy


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 10-May-2010 at 15:11
Why do you think that Neanderthals were "hairy?" It is because of the numerous representations that have been made over the last few hundred years, and nothing more!

However, I propose that some of our direct ancestors came out of the depths of a dry Med. Sea or "Black Sea", thus raised in an environment whereby sun burn was almost impossible!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 10-May-2010 at 15:20
actually neandertals have been described , having heavy muscles and hairy body because they were original  habitant of cold europe and  H-sapiens were nice and elegant  and not hairy actually they may had fur dress to protect them against cold, because they were richBig smile
by the way  ALANS which were habitant of a part of france were they too euro- born or they came from asia? it seems every people living in europe have only european origin and no one has came from africa or asia!!!


Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 10-May-2010 at 15:37
true or false about ALANS 

The Alans or Alani (occasionally termed Alauni or Halani) were a group of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians - Sarmatian  tribes,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_nomads - nomadic pastoralists  of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_millennium_AD - 1st millennium AD  who spoke an  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian - Eastern Iranian  language which derived from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian_language - Scytho-Sarmatian  and which in turn evolved into modern  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetian_language - Ossetian . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-iranica.com-0 - [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-1 - [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-2 - [3]

Contents

 [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans - hide ]
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Name - - 1  - Name
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Timeline - - 2  - Timeline
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Early_Alans - - 3  - Early Alans
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Archaeology - - 4  - Archaeology
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Migration_to_Gaul - - 5  - Migration to Gaul
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Hispania_and_Africa - - 6  - Hispania and Africa
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Alans_and_Slavs - - 7  - Alans and Slavs
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Medieval_Alania - - 8  - Medieval Alania
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Religion.2C_language.2C_and_later_history - - 9  - Religion, language, and later history
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Notes - - 10  - Notes
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#See_also - - 11  - See also
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#References - - 12  - References
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#External_links - - 13  - External links

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=1 - edit ]Name

The various forms of Alan —  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language - Greek : ΑλανοίΑλαννοίhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language - Chinese : 阿蘭聊 Alanliao ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin - Pinyin ) in the 2nd century  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-3 - [4] , 阿蘭 Alan ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin - Pinyin ) in the 3rd century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-4 - [5]  — and Iron (a self-designation of the Alans' modern  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians - Ossetian  descendants, indicating early tribal self-designation) are  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages - Iranian  dialectical forms of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan - Aryan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-iranica.com-0 - [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-5 - [6] . These and other variants of Aryan (such as Iran), were common self-designations of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians - Indo-Iranians , the common ancestors of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryans - Indo-Aryans  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples - Iranian peoples  to whom the Alans belonged.

The Alans were also known over the course of their history by another group of related names including the variations AsiAs, and Os ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language - Hungarian  Jász, Russian Jasy, Georgian Osi). It is this name that is the root of the modern Ossetian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-6 - [7]

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=2 - edit ]Timeline

< name="timeline_ea3aedbd4c026c9597cb7a4f895c8deb" id="timeline_ea3aedbd4c026c9597cb7a4f895c8deb">

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=3 - edit ]Early Alans

The first mentions of names that historians link with the "Alani" appear at almost the same time in Greco-Roman geography and in the Chinese dynastic chronicles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-7 - [8] .

The Geography (XXIII, 11) of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo - Strabo  (63/64 BC–ca. 24 AD), who was born in  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus - Pontus  on the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea - Black Sea , but was also working with  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia - Persian  sources, to judge from the forms he gives to tribal names, mentions Aorsi that he links with  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces - Siraces  and claims that a Spadines, king of the Aorsi, could assemble two hundred thousand mounted archers in the mid-1st century BC. But the "upper Aorsi" from whom they had split as fugitives, could send many more, for they dominated the coastal region of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea - Caspian Sea : "and consequently they could import on camels the Indian and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia - Babylonian  merchandise, receiving it in their turn from the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia - Armenians  and the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes - Medes , and also, owing to their wealth, could wear golden ornaments. Now the Aorsi live along  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River,_Russia - the Tanaïs , but the Siraces live along  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_River - the Achardeüs , which flows from the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus - Caucasus  and empties into  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Azov - Lake Maeotis ."

Chapter 123 of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiji - Shiji  (whose author,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian - Sima Qian , died circa 90 BC) reports:

Yancai lies some 2,000 li [832 km] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-8 - [9]  northwest of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangju - Kangju . The people are nomads and their customs are generally similar to those of the people of Kangju. The country has over 100,000 archer warriors, and borders on a great shoreless lake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-9 - [10]

The mouth of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syr_Darya - Syr Darya  or Jaxartes River, which emptied into the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea - Aral Sea  was approximately 850 km northwest of the oasis of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tashkent - Tashkent  which was an important centre of the Kangju confederacy. This provides remarkable confirmation of the account in the Shiji.

The Later  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Dynasty - Han Dynasty  Chinese chronicle, the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Later_Han - Hou Hanshu , 88 (covering the period 25–220 and completed in the 5th century), mentioned a report that the steppe land Yancai was now known as Alanliao (阿蘭聊):

The kingdom of Yancai [literally "Vast Steppe"] has changed its name to the kingdom of Alanliao. They occupy the country and the towns. It is a dependency of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangju - Kangju  (the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_River - Chu ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talas - Talas , and middle  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaxartes - Jaxartes  basins). The climate is mild. Wax trees, pines, and ‘white grass’ [aconite] are plentiful. Their way of life and dress are the same as those of Kangju. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-10 - [11]

The 3rd century  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weil%C3%BCe - Weilüe  states:

Then there is the kingdom of Liu, the kingdom of Yan [to the north of Yancai], and the kingdom of Yancai [between the Black and Caspian Seas], which is also called Alan. They all have the same way of life as those of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangju - Kangju . To the west, they border  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daqin - Da Qin  [Roman territory], to the southeast they border Kangju [the Chu, Talas, and middle Jaxartes basins]. These kingdoms have large numbers of their famous sables. They raise cattle and move about in search of water and fodder. They are close to a large shoreless lake. Previously they were vassals of Kangju [the Chu, Talas, and middle Jaxartes basins]. Now they are no longer vassals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-11 - [12]

By the beginning of the 1st century, the Alans had occupied lands in the northeast  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Sea - Azov Sea  area, along the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River,_Russia - Don  and by the 2nd century had amalgamated or joined with the Yancai of the early Chinese records to extend their control all the way along the trade routes from the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea - Black Sea  to the north of the Caspian and Aral seas. The written sources suggest that from the end of the 1st century to the second half of the 4th century the Alans had supremacy over the tribal union and created a powerful confederation of Sarmatian tribes.

From a Western point-of-view the Alans presented a serious problem for the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire - Roman Empire , with incursions into both the Danubian and the Caucasian provinces in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

Main article:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetae - Massagetae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammianus_Marcellinus - Ammianus Marcellinus  considered the Alans to be the former  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetae - Massagetae : " http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Roman_History/Book_XXXI - the Alani, who were formerly called the Massagetae " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-12 - [13]  and stated " http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Roman_History/Book_XXXI - Nearly all the Alani are men of great stature and beauty; their hair is somewhat yellow, their eyes are terribly fierce ". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-13 - [14] .

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=4 - edit ]Archaeology

Archaeological finds support the written sources. Late Sarmatian sites were first identified with the historical Alans by P.D. Rau (1927). Based on the archaeological material, they were one of the Iranian-speaking nomadic tribes that began to enter the Sarmatian area between the middle of the 1st and the 2nd century.

The Alani were first mentioned in Roman literature in the 1st century and were described later as a warlike people that specialized in horse breeding. They frequently raided the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_empire - Parthian empire  and the Caucasian provinces of the Roman Empire. In the Vologeses inscription http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-14 - [15]  one can read that  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vologeses_I - Vologeses I , the Parthian king, in the 11th year of his reign, battled  http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kuluk&action=edit&redlink=1 - Kuluk , king of the Alani.

This inscription is supplemented by the contemporary Jewish historian,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus - Josephus  (37–100), who reports in the Jewish Wars (book 7, ch. 8.4) how Alans (whom he calls a " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia - Scythian " tribe) living near the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Azov - Sea of Azov , crossed the Iron Gates for plunder and defeated the armies of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacorus_II_of_Parthia - Pacorus , king of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes - Media , and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiridates_I_of_Armenia - Tiridates , King of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Armenia - Armenia , two brothers of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vologases_I_of_Parthia - Vologeses I  (for whom the above-mentioned inscription was made):

4. Now there was a nation of the Alans, which we have formerly mentioned somewhere as being Scythians, and inhabiting at the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Azov - Lake Meotis . This nation about this time laid a design of falling upon  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes - Media , and the parts beyond it, in order to plunder them; with which intention they treated with the king of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrcania - Hyrcania ; for he was master of that  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darial_Gorge - passage  which king  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great - Alexander  shut up with iron gates. This king gave them leave to come through them; so they came in great multitudes, and fell upon the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes - Medes  unexpectedly, and plundered their country, which they found full of people, and replenished with abundance of cattle, while nobody durst make any resistance against them; for Pacorus, the king of the country, had fled away for fear into places where they could not easily come at him, and had yielded up everything he had to them, and had only saved his wife and his concubines from them, and that with difficulty also, after they had been made captives, by giving them a hundred talents for their ransom. These Alans therefore plundered the country without opposition, and with great ease, and proceeded as far as Armenia, laying all waste before them. Now, Tiridates was king of that country, who met them and fought them but had luck to not have been taken alive in the battle; for a certain man threw a net over him from a great distance and had soon drawn him to him, unless he had immediately cut the cord with his sword and ran away and so, prevented it. So the Alans, being still more provoked by this sight, laid waste the country, and drove a great multitude of the men, and a great quantity of the other prey they had gotten out of both kingdoms, along with them, and then retreated back to their own country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrian - Flavius Arrianus  marched against the Alani in the 1st century and left a detailed report (Ektaxis kata Alanoon or 'War Against the Alans') that is a major source for studying Roman  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tactics - military tactics , but doesn't reveal much about his enemy. In the late 4th century,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Flavius_Vegetius_Renatus - Vegetius  conflates Alans and Huns in his military treatise — Hunnorum Alannorumque natio, the "nation of Huns and Alans" — and collocates Goths, Huns and Alans, exemplo Gothorum et Alannorum Hunnorumque http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-15 - [16] .

In Cathay and the Way Thither, 1866,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Yule - Henry Yule  writes:

The Alans were known to the Chinese by that name, in the ages immediately preceding and following the Christian era, as dwelling near the Aral, in which original position they are believed to have been closely akin to, if not identical with, the famous Massagetæ. Hereabouts also Ptolemy (vi, 14) appears to place the Alani-Scythæ, and Alanæan Mountains. From about 40 B.C. the emigrations of the Alans seem to have been directed westward to the Lower Don; here they are placed in the first century by Josephus and by the Armenian writers; and hence they are found issuing in the third century to ravage the rich provinces of Asia Minor. In 376 the deluge of the Huns on its westward course came upon the Alans and overwhelmed them. Great numbers of Alans are found to have joined the conquerors on their further progress, and large bodies of Alans afterwards swelled the waves of Goths, Vandals, and Sueves, that rolled across the Western Empire. A portion of the Alans, however, after the Hun invasion retired into the plains adjoining Caucasus, and into the lower valleys of that region, where they maintained the name and nationality which the others speedily lost. Little is heard of these Caucasian Alans for many centuries, except occasionally as mercenary soldiers of the Byzantine emperors or the [p. 316] Persian kings. In the thirteenth century they made a stout resistance to the Mongol conquerors, and though driven into the mountains they long continued their forays on the tracts subjected to the Tartar dynasty that settled on the Wolga, so that the Mongols had to maintain posts with strong garrisons to keep them in check. They were long redoutable both as warriors and as armourers, but by the end of the fourteenth century they seem to have come thoroughly under the Tartar rule; for they fought on the side of Toctamish Khan of Sarai against the great Timur. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-16 - [17]

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=5 - edit ]Migration to Gaul

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alani_map.jpg">
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alani_map.jpg">
Alan migrations in the 4th–5th centuries. Red: migrations; Orange: military expeditions; Yellow: settlement areas.

Around 370, the Alans were overwhelmed by the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns - Huns . They were divided into several groups, some of whom fled westward. A portion of these western Alans joined the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals - Vandals  and the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sueves - Sueves  in their invasion of Roman  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul - Gaul .  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Tours - Gregory of Tours  mentions in his  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_historiae_Francorum - Liber historiae Francorum  ("Book of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks - Frankish  History") that the Alan king  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respendial - Respendial  saved the day for the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals - Vandals  in an armed encounter with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks - Franks  at the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_of_the_Rhine - crossing of the Rhine  on December 31, 406). According to Gregory, another group of Alans, led by  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goar - Goar , crossed the Rhine at the same time, but immediately joined the Romans and settled in Gaul.

In Gaul, the Alans originally led by Goar were settled by Aetius in several areas, notably around  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orl%C3%A9ans - Orléans  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence,_Dr%C3%B4me - Valentia . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-17 - [18]  Under Goar, they allied with the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundians - Burgundians  led by  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundaharius - Gundaharius , with whom they installed the usurping Emperor  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovinus - Jovinus . Under Goar's successor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangiban - Sangiban , the Alans of Orléans played a critical role in repelling the invasion of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attila_the_Hun - Attila the Hun  at the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ch%C3%A2lons - Battle of Châlons . After the 5th century, however, the Alans of Gaul were subsumed in the territorial struggles between the Franks and the Visigoths, and ceased to have an independent existence.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavius_A%C3%ABtius - Flavius Aëtius  settled large numbers of Alans in and around  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorica - Armorica  in order to quell unrest. The  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language - Breton language  name  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_%28name%29 - Alan  (rather than the French Alain) and several towns with names related to 'Alan', such as  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allainville,_Yvelines - Allainville, Yvelines ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alainville-en_Beauce&action=edit&redlink=1 - Alainville-en Beauce ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loiret - Loiret ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allaines - Allaines  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allainville,_Eure-et-Loir - Allainville ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eure-et-Loir - Eure-et-Loir , and  http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Les_Allains&action=edit&redlink=1 - Les Allains ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eure - Eure , are taken as evidence that a contingent settled in  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorica - Armorica ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany - Brittany , which retained a reputation for outstanding horsemanship with  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Tours - Gregory of Tours  and into the Middle Ages, preferring to remain mounted to fight in contrast with all their neighbors, who dismounted in battle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-18 - [19]

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=6 - edit ]Hispania and Africa

Following the fortunes of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals - Vandals  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suevi - Suevi  into the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_peninsula - Iberian peninsula  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania - Hispania , comprising modern Portugal and Spain) in 409, the Alans led by Respendial settled in the provinces of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusitania - Lusitania  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthaginiensis - Carthaginiensis : "Alani Lusitaniam et Carthaginiensem provincias, et Wandali cognomine Silingi Baeticam sortiuntur" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydatius - Hydatius ). The Siling Vandals settled in  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baetica - Baetica , the Suevi in coastal  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaecia - Gallaecia , and the Asding Vandals in the rest of Gallaecia.

In 418 (or 426 according to some authors, cf. e.g. Castritius, 2007), the Alan king,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attaces - Attaces , was killed in battle against the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths - Visigoths , and this branch of the Alans subsequently appealed to the Asding Vandal king  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunderic - Gunderic  to accept the Alan crown. The separate ethnic identity of Respendial's Alans dissolved. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-19 - [20]  Although some of these Alans are thought to have remained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_peninsula - Iberia , most went to North Africa with the Vandals in 429. Later Vandal kings in North Africa styled themselves Rex Wandalorum et Alanorum ("King of the Vandals and Alans").

There are some vestiges of the Alans in Portugal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-20 - [21] , namely in  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alenquer - Alenquer  (whose name may be Germanic for the Temple of the Alans, from "Alen Ker", and whose castle may have been established by them; the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaunt - Alaunt  is still represented in that city's coat of arms), in the construction of the castles of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torres_Vedras - Torres Vedras  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_of_Almourol - Almourol , and in the city walls of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon - Lisbon , where vestigies of their presence may be found under the foundations of the Church of Santa Luzia.

In the Iberian peninsula the Alans settled in  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusitania - Lusitania  (cf.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alentejo - Alentejo ) and the Cartaginense provinces. They became known in retrospect for their massive hunting and fighting dog of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molosser - Molosser type, the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaunt - Alaunt , which they apparently introduced to Europe. The breed is extinct, but its name is carried by a giant breed of dog still called  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alano_Espa%C3%B1ol - Alano  that survives in the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Country_%28autonomous_community%29 - Basque Country . The dogs are traditionally used in  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar - boar  hunting and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle - cattle  herding.

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=7 - edit ]Alans and Slavs

At the time of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attila_the_Hun - Attila the Hun  a portion of Alans living in the "Sarmatia of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerian_Bosporus - Cimmerian Bosporus " moved northwest into the land of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venedes - Venedes  (according to  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Antonius_Coccius_Sabellicus - M.A. Sabellico ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Auguste_de_Thou - J.A. de Thou  and some others historians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-21 - [22] ), possibly merging with  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture - Western Balts  there to become the precursors of historic  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs - Slav nations .

Third-century inscriptions from the Greek colony of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanais - Tanais  at the mouth of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River,_Russia - Don River  mention a nearby Alan tribe called the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats - Choroatos  or  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats - Chorouatos . The historian  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy - Ptolemy  identifies the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi - Serboi  as a  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatia - Sarmatian  tribe who lived north of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus - Caucasus , and other sources identify the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi - Serboi  as an Alan tribe in the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga - Volga -Don steppe in the 3rd century. In the 7th century the Serboi and Choroatos migrated into the western  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans - Balkans , supposedly at the invitation of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Roman_Empire - Eastern Roman Emperor   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius - Heraclius , and settled there among earlier Slavic migrants to become ancestors of the modern  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs - Serbs  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats - Croats . Some Serboi settled on the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe - Elbe , and their descendants are the modern  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs - Sorbs . Tenth-century  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire - Byzantine  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab - Arab  accounts describe a people called the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belochrobati - Belochrobati  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats - White Croats ) living on the upper  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula - Vistula , an area later called  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrobatia - Chrobatia .[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed - citation needed ]

It's believed, that some Alans resettled to the North ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barsils - Barsils ), merging with  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgars - Volga Bulgars  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burtas - Burtas , eventually transforming to  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Tatars - Volga Tatars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-22 - [23]

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=8 - edit ]Medieval Alania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Khazar0.png">
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Khazar0.png">
Map showing the location of Alans, c. 650.
Main article:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alania - Alania

Some of the other Alans remained under the rule of the Huns. Those of the eastern division, though dispersed about the steppes until late  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages - medieval  times, were forced by the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols - Mongols  into the Caucasus, where they remain as the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians - Ossetians . Between the 9th and 12th centuries, they formed a network of tribal alliances that gradually evolved into the Christian kingdom of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alania - Alania . Most Alans submitted to the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire - Mongol Empire  in 1239–1277. They participated in  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe - Mongol invasions of Europe  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_conquest_of_the_Song_Dynasty - the Song Dynasty in Southern China , and the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kulikovo - Battle of Kulikovo  under  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamai - Mamai  of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde - Golden Horde http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-23 - [24] .

In 1253, the Franciscan monk  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Rubruck - William of Rubruck  reported numerous  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europeans_in_Medieval_China - Europeans in Central Asia . It is also known that 30,000 Alans formed the royal guard ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asud - Asud ) of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Dynasty - Yuan  court in  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanbaliq - Dadu  (Beijing).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo - Marco Polo  later reported their role in the Yuan Dynasty in his book  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_Milione - Il Milione . It's said that those Alans contributed to a modern Mongol clan,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asud - Asud .  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Montecorvino - John of Montecorvino , archbishop of Dadu (Khanbaliq), reportedly converted many Alans to Roman Catholic Christianity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-24 - [25] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_note-25 - [26]

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=9 - edit ]Religion, language, and later history

In the 4th–5th centuries the Alans were at least partially Christianized by Byzantine missionaries of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism - Arian  church. In the 13th century, fresh invading  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol - Mongol  hordes pushed the eastern Alans further south into the Caucasus, where they mixed with native Caucasian groups and successively formed three territorial entities each with different developments. Around 1395  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur - Timur 's army invaded  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Caucasus - Northern Caucasus  and massacred much of the Alanian population.

As the time went by,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digor - Digor  in the west came under  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabard - Kabard  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic - islamic  influence. It was through the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabard - Kabardians  (an East  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassia - Circassian  tribe) that  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam - Islam  was introduced into the region in the 17th century. After 1767, all of Alania came under Russian rule, which strengthened  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church - Orthodox Christianity  in that region considerably. Most of today's Ossetians are  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodoxy - Eastern Orthodox Christians.

The linguistic descendants of the Alans, who live in the autonomous republics of Russia and Georgia, speak the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetic_language - Ossetic language  which belongs to the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeastern_Iranian - Northeastern Iranian  language group and is the only remnant of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian - Scytho-Sarmatian   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect_continuum - dialect continuum  and which once stretched over much of the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_steppe - Pontic steppe  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia - Central Asia . Modern Ossetic has two major dialects:Digor, spoken in the western part of North Ossetia; and Iron, spoken in the rest of Ossetia. A third branch of Ossetic,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jassic - Jassic  (Jász), was formerly spoken in Hungary. The literary language, based on the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_dialect - Iron dialect , was fixed by the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_poet - national poet ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosta_Xetagurov - Kosta Xetagurov  (1859–1906).

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=10 - edit ]Notes

  1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-iranica.com_0-0 - - b   http://www.iranica.com/newsite/index.isc?Article=http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/unicode/v1f8/v1f8a013.html - Encyclopedia Iranica, "Alans" V. I. Abaev External link
  2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-1 - ^  Agustí Alemany, Sources on the Alans: A Critical Compilation.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brill_Academic_Publishers - Brill Academic Publishers , 2000  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9004114424 - ISBN 90-04-11442-4
  3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-2 - ^  For  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnogenesis - ethnogenesis , see  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Pohl - Walter Pohl , "Conceptions of Ethnicity in Early Medieval Studies" Debating the Middle Ages: Issues and Readings, ed. Lester K. Little and Barbara H. Rosenwein, (Blackwell), 1998, pp 13–24) ( http://www.kroraina.com/bulgar/pohl_etnicihttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ethnic_group&action=editty.html - On-line text ).
  4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-3 - ^   http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/hhshu/hou_han_shu.html - The Hou Hanshu
  5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-4 - ^   http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/weilue/weilue.html - The Weilüe
  6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-5 - ^  Alemany p. 3
  7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-6 - ^  Alemany pp. 5–7
  8. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-7 - ^  See Agustí Alemany, Sources on the Alans Handbook of Oriental Studies, sect. 8, vol 5) (Leiden:Brill) 2000.
  9. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-8 - ^  The Chinese  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_%28Chinese_unit%29 - li  of the Han period differs from the modern  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_base_unit - SI base unit  of length; one li was equivalent to 415.8 metres.
  10. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-9 - ^  Perhaps what is known in the sources as the Northern Sea". The "Great Shoreless lake" probably referred to both the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea - Aral  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea - Caspian  seas. Source in Watson, Burton trans. 1993. Records of the Grand Historian by  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian - Sima Qian . Han Dynasty II. (Revised Edition), p. 234.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University_Press - Columbia University Press . New York.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0231081669 - ISBN 0-231-08166-9 ;  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0231081677 - ISBN 0-231-08167-7  (pbk.)
  11. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-10 - ^  Hill, John E. 2003. "Annotated Translation of the Chapter on the Western Regions according to the Hou Hanshu." Revised Edition – to be published soon.
  12. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-11 - ^   http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/weilue/weilue.html - For an earlier version of this translation
  13. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-12 - ^  Ammianus Marcellinus, XXXI.2.12
  14. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-13 - ^  Ammianus Marcellinus, XXXI.2.21:Proceri autem Halani paene sunt omnes et pulchri, crinibus mediocriter flavis, oculorum temperata torvitate terribiles et armorum levitate veloces.
  15. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-14 - ^   http://www.lostlanguages.com/parthian.htm - Vologeses inscription.
  16. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-15 - ^  Vegetius 3.26, noted in passing by T.D. Barnes, "The Date of Vegetius" Phoenix 33.3 (Autumn 1979, pp. 254–257) p. 256. "The collocation of these three barbarian races does not recur a generation later", Barnes notes, in presenting a case for a late 4th century origin for Vegetius' treatise.
  17. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-16 - ^  Giovanni de Marignolli, "John De' Marignolli and His Recollections of Eastern Travel," in  http://www.archive.org/details/cathayandwaythi00marigoog - Cathay and the Way Thither: Being a Collection of Medieval Notices of China , Volume 2, ed. Henry Yule (London: The Hakluyt Society, 1866), 316–317,
  18. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-17 - ^  Bernard S. Bachrach, "The Alans in Gaul", Traditio 23 (1967).
  19. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-18 - ^  Bernard S. Bachrach, "The Origin of Armorican Chivalry" Technology and Culture 10.2 (April 1969), pp. 166–171.
  20. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-19 - ^  For another rapid disintegration of an ethne in the Early Middle Ages, see  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Avars - Avars . (Pohl 1998:17f).
  21. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-20 - ^  Milhazes, José.  http://www.rtp.pt/index.php?article=264957&visual=16&rss=0 - Os antepassados caucasianos dos portugueses  –  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A1dio_e_Televis%C3%A3o_de_Portugal - Rádio e Televisão de Portugal  in  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_language - Portuguese .
  22. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-21 - ^  Ioachimi Pastorii Florus Polonicus, seu Poloniae historiae epitome nova, Lugduni Batavorum ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leiden - Leiden ), 1641 (see in the Preface).
  23. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-22 - ^  (Russian)  http://kitap.net.ru/bayar.php - Тайная история татар
  24. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-23 - ^  Handbuch Der Orientalistik By Agustí Alemany, Denis Sinor, Bertold Spuler, Hartwig Altenmüller, p. 400–410
  25. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-24 - ^  Roux, p.465
  26. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#cite_ref-25 - ^   http://www.luc.edu/publications/medieval/vol2/guzman.html - Christian Europe and Mongol Asia: First Medieval Intercultural Contact Between East and West

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=11 - edit ]See also

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrations_period - Migrations period
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians - Sarmatians
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians - Scythians
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians - Ossetians

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=12 - edit ]References

  • Agustí Alemany, Sources on the Alans: A Critical Compilation.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brill_Academic_Publishers - Brill Academic Publishers , 2000  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9004114424 - ISBN 90-04-11442-4
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Bachrach - Bernard S. Bachrach , A History of the Alans in the West, from their first appearance in the sources of classical antiquity through the early Middle Ageshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Minnesota - University of Minnesota  Press, 1973  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0816606781 - ISBN 0-8166-0678-1
  • Bachrach, Bernard S.  http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0040-165X%28196904%2910%3A2%3C166%3ATOOAC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S - "The Origin of Armorican Chivalry."  Technology and Culture, Vol. 10, No. 2. (Apr., 1969), pp. 166–171.
  • Castritius, H. 2007. Die Vandalen. Kohlhammer Urban.
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Golb - Golb, Norman  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omeljan_Pritsak - Omeljan Pritsak , Khazarian Hebrew Documents of the Tenth Century. Ithaca: Cornell Univ. Press, 1982.
  • Hill, John E. 2003. "Annotated Translation of the Chapter on the Western Regions according to the Hou Hanshu." 2nd Draft Edition.  http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/hhshu/hou_han_shu.html - [1]
  • Hill, John E. 2004. The Peoples of the West from the Weilüe 魏略 by Yu Huan 魚豢: A Third Century Chinese Account Composed between 239 and 265 CE. Draft annotated English translation.  http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/weilue/weilue.html - [2]
  • Yu, Taishan. 2004. A History of the Relationships between the Western and Eastern Han, Wei, Jin, Northern and Southern Dynasties and the Western Regions. Sino-Platonic Papers No. 131 March 2004. Dept. of East Asian Languages and Civilizations, University of Pennsylvania.

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=13 - edit ]External links

  • http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/texts/hhshu/notes19.html - Strabo and Hou Han Shureferences discussed
  • http://www.kafkas.org.tr/english/bgkafkas/Ethnicgeography_Ossets.htm - Caucasus Foundation: Caucasus Today: Ossets
  • http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:DfH6I9af-54J:home.btconnect.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/Oric.Basirov/origin_of_the_iranians.htm+basirov+origin+iranians&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1 - Brief histories of the pre-Imperial Iranian peoples, Dr Oric Basirov
  • http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/70%20Dateline/alan%20dateline%20En.htm - The Alans Timeline
  • http://www.enciklopedia.gobeportal.com/index.php?title=Main_Page - The Transylvanian szeklers The Golden Scythians
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 29-May-2010 at 14:18
Kalhur, wrote;

"is it true that we are all mix of nean+ sapiens it is why they have hair on their chest and rest of body like neandertals!!
anyway i am a realy hairy creature and do not dare any more to send more DNA tests and become classed as ½ neandertal!"

Come on man, do it! "It is so easy a cave man could do it!"

Just why would you even worry about it? If some new theories are correct then Neanderthal people were much more like the other people in more ways than we now know! They were not sub-human in any degree! Just like today, they were merely "different!", you know like red-haired people with thousands of feckles! Weird! of course, but just "different!"

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2010 at 17:26
Perhaps we shold disregard the above comments concerning Neanderthals, etc., and return to the question regarding the real location of Gaul?

Have all the answers been presented?

Ciao!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Aijn
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2010 at 08:25


 
 Gaul consisted of Italy north of the Rubicon, and Europe west of the Rhine and north of the Pyrenees. Certainly Caesar never conquered Golestan and divided it into three parts Smile
 
Yes, Gaul north of the Alps was called Gaul Cisalpina. Celts apparently invaded Roman Empire and settled there. Alternatively, they lived there before the beginning of The Roman Empire. I lean toward the alternative. 

Some Gauls did migrate late on into Asia Minor and where they settled is called Galatia. Maybe they also colonised part of Iran too, so I guess if you want to argue that Persians are descendants of Gauls, you may have a case.

Galatia is more tricky. There are no ancient sources, save for the Bible, locating any Galatians in the Middle East. 
 






Posted By: Aijn
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2010 at 08:39
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There is certianly a relation between Gaels, Gauls, Gallians, Galatians,

And between Welsh, Irish, Scots and Bretons but they don't have similar names.
On the other hand the Doges of Venice had nothing much to do with the dogs at the Kennel Club.
... which are all the names of Celtic peoples,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt  : their root may be the Common Celtic *galno, meaning 'power' or 'strength'.

As you read in this book:  http://books.google.com/books?id=eGAMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA6&dq=celtic+caspian - Chambers's Information for the People ,

Written in 1849, and a popularisation even then. Studies of PIE were only just beginning and I doubt if anyone at Chambers new anything about them.
"The Celtic nation possessed, a space of country extending from the Pillars of Hercules [Gibraltar] to Asia Minor and beyond the Caspian. (east of the Caspian sea)" and this book:  http://books.google.com/books?id=VjYCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA230&dq=celtic+caspian&lr=&as_brr=1 - The Annual Review and History of Literature  says "The Celtic tongue once prevailed from Gibraltar to the Caspian.
 
Well if you take that literally then a lot of Gaels were not Celts. It is of course trivially wrong. Portugal and parts of Spain and Ireland are west of Gibraltar.
And  http://books.google.com/books?id=VjYCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA230&dq=celtic+caspian&lr=&as_brr=1 -  dates to 1805 for Pete's sake. We've come on a little from then.
 
Anyway Celts aren't Gaels, though Gaels are usually considered Celts (pace Paul). Gaels are the westernmost of the Celtic peoples. In the early studies of Indo-European studies, Gaelic was not even considered to be a Celtic or I-E language, though it is now.
 
 The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."
 
It would be very strange if it did. Migrations usually spread out in more than one direction (where geography permits).



Welsh and Gauls is the same if you disregard consonant shift. 

Celts are just Gauls nothing else, a different name applied to antiquity.

What are your sources about Gaulish not having been considered IE. What was it considered THEN ?


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 19:24
Dear Aijn, I have no sources concerning wether or not Gaulish was considered IE, or not! So maybe you were asking the question to another poster above?

However, I would consider that the Gauls (whom ever they were and where ever they lived?) had a language that still exists today!

In W. Europe it could be some mixture of Flemish and German? In Turkey? In Eastern Europe mpost probably it was more Germanic?

You see, all I can make are guesses, which places me in the same catagory as all of the so called experts on the subject!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 20:06
Since no one has posted here for a while, I thought that no one really had the "Gall" to do so?

But, perhaps, if one was to consider that these "sound alikes" were actually "related?", then we might have a whole new show?

Besides the so called "experts" what really seperates the meanings?

One might even consider the effiminate word "Gal" is also related?

As well as this word/name?

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Gail

And can we not forget the word "Gale?"

http://www.dictionary.net/gale

And there even exists other possibilities?

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 20:20
Originally posted by opuslola

Since no one has posted here for a while, I thought that no one really had the "Gall" to do so?

But, perhaps, if one was to consider that these "sound alikes" were actually "related?", then we might have a whole new show?

Besides the so called "experts" what really seperates the meanings?

One might even consider the effiminate word "Gal" is also related?

As well as this word/name?

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Gail

And can we not forget the word "Gale?"

http://www.dictionary.net/gale

And there even exists other possibilities?
Here's more about Gall:
 

Galls are outgrowths on the surface of lifeforms caused by invasion by other lifeforms, such as parasites or bacterial infection. Plant galls are abnormal outgrowths #cite_note-0 - [1] of /wiki/Plant - plant tissues and can be caused by various /wiki/Parasite - parasites , from /wiki/Fungi - fungi and /wiki/Bacterium - bacteria , to /wiki/Insect - insects and /wiki/Mite - mites . Plant galls are often highly organised structures and because of this the cause of the gall can often be determined without the actual agent being identified. This applies particularly to some insect and mite plant galls. In human medicine pathology, a gall is a raised sore on the skin, usually caused by chafing or rubbing. #cite_note-1 - [2]

Insects

Insect galls are the highly distinctive plant structure formed by some /wiki/Herbivore - herbivorous insects as their own microhabitats. They are plant tissue which is controlled by the insect. Galls act as both the habitat and food source for the maker of the gall. The interior of a gall can contain edible nutritious starch and other tissues. Some galls act as "physiologic sinks", concentrating resources in the gall from the surrounding plant parts. #cite_note-2 - [3] Galls may also provide the insect with physical protection from predators. #cite_note-3 - [4]

Insect galls are usually induced by chemicals injected by the /wiki/Larva - larvae or the /wiki/Adult - adults of the insects into the plants, and possibly mechanical damage. After the galls are formed, the larvae develop inside until fully grown, when they leave. In order to form galls, the insects must seize the time when plant cell division occurs quickly: the growing season, usually spring in temperate climates, but which is extended in the tropics.

The /wiki/Meristem - meristems , where plant cell division occurs, are the usual sites of galls, though insect galls can be found on other parts of the plant, such as the leaves, /wiki/Stalk_%28botany%29 - stalks , /wiki/Branch - branches , /wiki/Bud - buds , /wiki/Root - roots , and even /wiki/Flower - flowers and /wiki/Fruit - fruits . Gall-inducing insects are usually species-specific and sometimes tissue-specific on the plants they gall.

/wiki/Gall-inducing_insect - Gall-inducing insects include /wiki/Gall_wasp - gall wasps , /wiki/Gall_midge - gall midges , /wiki/Tephritidae - gall flies , /wiki/Aphid - aphids (such as /wiki/Melaphis_chinensis - Melaphis chinensis ), and /wiki/Psyllid - psyllids .

 Fungi

One gall-inducing fungus is /wiki/Gymnosporangium - Cedar-apple rust. Galls are often seen in /wiki/Millettia_pinnata - Millettia pinnata leaves and fruits. Leaf galls appear like tiny clubs; however, flower galls are globose.

It is worth noting that the fungus Ustilago esculenta associated with Zizania latifolia, a wild rice, produces an edible gall highly valued as a food source in the Zhejiang and Jiangsu provinces of China. #cite_note-4 - [5]

 Bacteria and viruses

/wiki/Agrobacterium_tumefaciens - Agrobacterium tumefaciens is an example of a gall-causing bacterium.

 Other plants

/wiki/Mistletoe - Mistletoe can form galls on its hosts

 Uses

Galls are rich in resins and /wiki/Tannic_acid - tannic acid and have been used in the manufacture of permanent inks (such as /wiki/Iron_gall_ink - iron gall ink ) and astringent ointments, in /wiki/Dyeing - dyeing , and in /wiki/Tanning - tanning . A high-quality ink has long been made from the /wiki/Oak_marble_gall - Aleppo gall , found on oaks in the Middle East; it is one of a number of galls resembling nuts and called "gallnuts" or "nutgalls". The larvae in galls are useful for a survival food and fishing bait; see the /wiki/Indigenous_Australians - Indigenous Australian foods /wiki/Bush_coconut - Bush coconut and /wiki/Mulga_apple - Mulga apple . Nutgalls also produce /wiki/Purpurogallin - purpurogallin .

 Gallery

/wiki/File:Maple_leaf_gall.jpg -

/wiki/File:Maple_leaf_gall.jpg">

Gall on a /wiki/Maple - Maple leaf

/wiki/File:Diplolepis-rosae.jpg">

Rose bedeguar gall on a /wiki/Wild_rose - wild rose in summer.

/wiki/File:Diplolepis_Quercus01.jpg">

/wiki/Oak_artichoke_gall - Oak artichoke gall (Andricus fecundator)

/wiki/File:Gallwespe_bedient_sich_Eichel2.jpg">

/wiki/Knopper_gall - Knopper gall (Andricus quercuscalicis)

/wiki/File:Diplolepis_Quercus02.jpg">

/wiki/Knopper_gall - Knopper gall (Andricus quercuscalicis)

/wiki/File:Eikengallen_op_mannelijke_bloeiwijze.jpg">

Neuroterus albipes forma laeviusculus

/wiki/File:Eucalyptus_gall.jpg">

/wiki/Eucalyptus - Eucalyptus leaf gall

/wiki/File:Oak_Gall.jpg">

Andricus kollari /wiki/Oak_gall - oak gall

/wiki/File:Andricus_lignicola_-_Cola-nut_Gall.JPG">

/wiki/Cola-nut_gall - Cola-nut galls (Andricus lignicola) on Pedunculate Oak

/wiki/File:Gymnosporangium_juniperii_telial_form.jpg">

/wiki/Gymnosporangium - Gymnosporangium

/wiki/File:Oak_marble_galls_1.JPG">

/wiki/Oak - Oak marble galls, one with a Gall fly exit hole and another with Phoma gallorum fungal attack.

/wiki/File:Red-Pea_gall_Cynips_divisa_on_Oak.JPG">

/wiki/Red-pea_gall - Red-pea gall (Cynips divisa) on Pedunculate oak.

/wiki/File:Oak_marble_gall_sectioned.JPG">
Sectioned gall showing central 'cell' and inquiline chamber; exit-hole and a possibly parasitised stunted gall specimen.
/wiki/File:Pineapple_gall.JPG">

/wiki/Pineapple_gall - Pineapple gall on /wiki/Sitka_Spruce - Sitka Spruce caused by Adelges abietis.

/wiki/File:Developing_Pineapple_Gall.JPG">

Developing Pineapple pseudocone galls on /wiki/Norway_Spruce - Norway Spruce

/wiki/File:GoldenRodGallSk.jpg">

/wiki/Goldenrod - Goldenrod Gall

/wiki/File:Oakgall3800ppx.JPG">

An /wiki/Oak - Oak tree with multiple /wiki/Oak_apple - Oak apples .

/wiki/File:Oakapple3800px.JPG">

Oak Apples on an oak tree.

/wiki/File:Eriophyes_tilae_tilae_close_up.JPG">

/wiki/Eriophyes_tiliae_tiliae - Lime nail galls (Eriophyes tiliae tiliae)

/wiki/File:Gall_of_peach_tree_leaves.jpg">
http://www.allempires.com/wiki/File:Diplolepis-rosae.jpg -
 
/wiki/File:Diplolepis_Quercus01.jpg -
 
/wiki/File:Eucalyptus_gall.jpg -
 
/wiki/File:Developing_Pineapple_Gall.JPG -
 
/wiki/File:GoldenRodGallSk.jpg -


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 20:22
Perhaps some one can explain just how this seemingly lost tribe, ever became related to the Gauls?

Supposedly they fought against the "Catalans" in the area of Constantinople, in the 12th century CE! And yet, it seems even the "Franks" hired both of them as mercenaries in this same period? I.e. Alans and Catalans! And it seems that it was only the Catalans who actually fought back! They actually defeated the powerful Duke of the Franks / Gauls? / Gallics? / French?, and took Athens, and its possessions from them, including their wives, etc.!

I would suggest that you look at the Wikipedia article concerning the Alans, and especially at this map that accompanies the article!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

Any denier's out there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_denier

Or should I have asked for "denhars?" or "Dinars?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_dinar

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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2011 at 15:56
like most of "ancient" nations inside someones brains,imaginary!


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 10:29
Lightheaded&Crazy mouth sparks Everywhere on earth's surface.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2013 at 22:27
OK, Medenaywe! Just give us a reason to explain the words "Catalans" from the "Alans?" And please do not use colors in your answer, they just defeat the purpose.

Were the "Alans" ever in Espania/ Hispania? We are told the "Catalans" actually ruled in parts of Greece for a number of years, and that they fought the "Alans" in what is now Turkey.

Regards, Ron

Ron

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