Are France and Poland antisemitic?

Originally posted by Maharbbal Polish president apologized already for Jedwabne. Don't you know about it? BTW, there is a difference between Jedwabne and German crimes. I don't write about the scale (milions killed by Germany and 250 killed in Jedwabne)Holocaust was commited by the state (Nazi Germany), while the murder in Jedwabne was commited by some 20 - 30 Poles, who were inspired and supported by German soldiers. It wasn't an activity of Polish state but Polish criminals.

Originally posted by Maharbbal Before you start talking about things you have no clue about you should wonder why the French Jewish community represents half of the Jews in Western Europe and less than a third of the aliyas from that region.

Edited by ataman - 01-Jul-2007 at 01:11

To continue an argument started here

Edited by Maharbbal - 01-Jul-2007 at 07:53

1. a comparison of Frech-Jewish relation in the begining of 21th c. to the Polish-Jewish relations in 1940's
I was clearly referring to the 1960s. I'm leaving aside your point on judeo-bolchevism, for your own sake.

Number of Jews in France were very small comparing to Poland. Most ecape because Your ancestors would kill them most probably.

Originally posted by Maharbbal 1. a comparison of Frech-Jewish relation in the begining of 21th c. to the Polish-Jewish relations in 1940's This is a crap comparison. If you want to be honest, compare French-Jewish relations in 1940's (you can begin from this link Agree with you but please remember that the comparison was drawn by Majkes and not by me. I was merely answering his insinuations that there was any point of comparison between both cases.   2. and crap statistic ('2500 Jews coming back from the death camps by their Polish neighbours') which is not only false (in reality there were some 300 Jews killed after WWII in Poland), but also deprived of context (Jews weren't the only one victims of criminals after WWII; thousands of Poles were killed by criminals in the country which was totaly damaged and depraved by the total war) I gave my sources, your point is interesting but I'd like to see the sources�  It is another crap statement. Even Communists weren't 'systematically anti-jewish'. In the period 1945-1956 a lot of Jews were more than welcomed workers of the State administration.  I was clearly referring to the 1960s. I'm leaving aside your point on judeo-bolchevism, for your own sake.

apperantly France has been so recently18 July, 2004 :

Edited by TheDiplomat - 01-Jul-2007 at 14:28

You are a Jew from Ukraine and Your father was Polish dissident?? Strange.



Woo, Diplomat is quoting Sharon, lets take note of it. This declaration was made in the midst of a diplomatic crisis between Israel and France and should be considered in its context. Besides, the number of aliyas did not rise significantly in 2005 and drop a year later.
I guess as a Jew who lived in France I should know about the level of antisemitism in this country. It is mostly the deeds of a small number of Muslim or Rightist youngsters, 300 antisemitic abuses (pious Jewish population in France: 600,000) have been counted in France in 2005 including insults. Two synagogues got attacked by cocktail Molotov but the same year a mosque was too. In 2007 over 12 catholic holy places have been burned to give you something to compare with.
Although distressing these actions may be everybody knows they come from a bunch of teens and should be considered as vandalism and not as a sign of an incoming genocide. During the 2005 riots despite the presence of a large Jewish community where they took place no antisemitic action was recorded.

I think there is a stark difference between Polish and French contemporary Anti-Semitism. There are two things that I think are interesting in those differences too.

Both France and Poland have had significant issues when it comes to Nationalism and what I'll call 'Mild, neo-fascism' in recent politics. The support for rather extreme right wing parties clearly shows there is a certain amount of xenophobia and a considerble amount of anti-semitism. I don't think that anyone from either country can deny that, nor can they deny that it is possible that there is more significant anti-semitism in France and Poland than in some other nations, without similar successes of the nationalist parties.

Where I think there are stark differences comes with the attitude towards the 1930's of the people. At a recent lecture I went too, delivered by a Polish Historian, there was a discussion of Polish "fascism" which was opened with a look at the 'present'. Interestingly, he showed the statue of Dmowski that was unveiled with state honours. Roman Dmowski is a fairly interesting character from Polands History, I think perhaps his legacy has been altered by the Communist legacy. However, he was a coot, with many crazy ideas, including fears of Jewish conspiracies etc. In the modern period, where fathers of the nation are looked for, Dmowski becomes a good symbol of an early Polish idealist, if you ignore his racist side.

This I believe is perhaps the difference here, often Polish History looks back to a period that was rife with anti-semitism, with admiration. Not intentionally because it was anti-semitic but because its the only period which they can look back at with admiration. Compared to France which never had 40years of Communism and has never had to break away from 40years of "leftist" rule. There were also fears and claims that Communism was partially blamed on Jews in Poland, but it was certainly perceived as a foreign imposition - which does lead to some form of nationalism.

Anyhow, In both countries there are problems of anti-semitism. Although, I'd perhaps argue there is a more institutional background of anti-semitism in Poland.

Originally posted by Maharbbal You are a Jew from Ukraine and Your father was Polish dissident?? Strange. Before calling me a liar check what stepfather means.   Sorry I've read it too quickly. I didn't say You are a lier though, I was just astonished.   It's easy for goverment to turn some people against other, isn't it? So it is never the Poles' fault? Sorry I mean, the Polish population never had an active, radical and sizeable antisemitic minority whose deeds were covered by the silence of the majority, and all is due to the manipulations of a wicked elite. Here me well, the Poles are not unique, far from it. In the whole of Europe there have been considerable amounts of antisemitism. Lets say that where the Poles (and a few others) stand outis that they did so in a period rather close to us.   I didn't say there was no antisemitism in Poland. I just say Poland is nothing unique in Europe. It's just the number of Jews in Poland that makes it unique. France had to apologise for state actions. This is uncomparable to spologising for few hundreds Poles. Yeah and Switzerland apologized for the spoliations which obviously had been done only by a few bankers I was talking about France but I don't think that Switzerland apologised only for few bankers. Ad.1 I didn't compare sitiuation in Poland 1940 and France 2000. I was just talking about apologizing. read more carefully. Well maybe I got it rong but lets admit you were all but clear. "Mahrabbal, You are talking constantly about Polish anti-semitism but maybe You should first have a look about Your own. Wasn't that in France that Jews wanted to escape of France because of anti-semitic atmosphere? Did You apologize for it? There is nothing like that in Poland." Ok, when You write quickly it's hard to be precise. Ad.2 He gave his sources but I see You don't bother reading other posts just Your own opinion. Hum, I may have missed it because the post got deleted but as far as I can see he posted an interesting reference on 1943 but nothing on 1945-6 which was my topic. You were refering to Tomasz Grass work " Neighbourgs" if I remember well. His sources says about the same.   Ad.3 In 1968 many Jews had to escape from Poland. It was caused by fights for power in communist party. One part of its members wanted to get rid others ( in which there were many Jews ) so they started anisemitic propaganda. It was also a year of big anti comunist revolt in Poland so I asume You were talking about it. I don't see the point. I don't make a point. I'm just explaining situation. This doesn't change it was aact of antisemitism. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has urged all French Jews to move to Israel immediately to escape anti-Semitism. Woo, Diplomat is quoting Sharon, lets take note of it. This declaration was made in the midst of a diplomatic crisis between Israel and France and should be considered in its context. Besides, the number of aliyas did not rise significantly in 2005 and drop a year later. I guess as a Jew who lived in France I should know about the level of antisemitism in this country. It is mostly the deeds of a small number of Muslim or Rightist youngsters, 300 antisemitic abuses (pious Jewish population in France: 600,000) have been counted in France in 2005 including insults. Two synagogues got attacked by cocktail Molotov but the same year a mosque was too. In 2007 over 12 catholic holy places have been burned to give you something to compare with. Although distressing these actions may be everybody knows they come from a bunch of teens and should be considered as vandalism and not as a sign of an incoming genocide. During the 2005 riots despite the presence of a large Jewish community where they took place no antisemitic action was recorded.