Mahrabbal, You are talking constantly about Polish anti-semitism but maybe You should first have a look about Your own. Wasn't that in France that Jews wanted to escape of France because of anti-semitic atmosphere? Did You apologize for it? There is nothing like that in Poland.

And why do almost all the Jews escaped to Poland in the past from tollerant Europe? The answer is because You would slaughter them.

 

Maharbbal, I'd like to remind that it was you, who has begun this discussion about Polish-Jewish relations, history and morality. And by now you permanently support your opinions by crap arguments, like these below

Originally posted by Maharbbal Besides I see a difference between a real but somewhat overemphasized peak of antisemitic actions in 2001-2005 and the murder of 2500 Jews coming back from the death camps by their Polish neighbours

 

Here we have:

 

1. a comparison of Frech-Jewish relation in the begining of 21th c. to the Polish-Jewish relations in 1940's

This is a crap comparison. If you want to be honest, compare French-Jewish relations in 1940's (you can begin from this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France#The_Statute_on_Jews - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France#The_Statute_on_Jews )

to Polish-Jewish relations in those time (you can begin here: http://www.geocities.com/jedwabne/english/przemilczana_kolaboracja.htm - http://www.geocities.com/jedwabne/english/przemilczana_kolaboracja.htm  more here: http://www.geocities.com/jedwabne/english/index.htm - http://www.geocities.com/jedwabne/english/index.htm )

 

2. and crap statistic ('2500 Jews coming back from the death camps by their Polish neighbours') which is not only false (in reality there were some 300 Jews killed after WWII in Poland), but also deprived of context (Jews weren't the only one victims of criminals after WWII; thousands of Poles were killed by criminals in the country which was totaly damaged and depraved by the total war)

 

Originally posted by Maharbbal and the systematically anti-jewish policies of a national government.

 

It is another crap statement. Even Communists weren't 'systematically anti-jewish'. In the period 1945-1956 a lot of Jews were more than welcomed workers of the State administration. For example they were largely employed by the Ministry of Public Security, whose main goal was a political repression and physical elimination of Communist opponents.

 

Number of Jews in France were very small comparing to Poland. Most ecape because Your ancestors would kill them most probably.

You compare destroyed Poland from 40s ruled by Communists and not independent to France year 2000 and You find France better behaving toward Jews. What a competition.

You don't have a clue about situation after WWII in Poland so You don't have any idea what You are talking about. First learn some basic things than try to play specialist. It was a civil war in Poland. Poland was not independent. Main positions in goverment were often taken by Russian communist like Defence Ministry.

And Polish president not only expressed his support for Jews but He apologised for Jews killed in Jedwabne. Tell me other country who apologise for incidents were there war less than 100 its citizens involved. I e.g. don't feel any links to bandits that killed Jews in Jedwabne. They were traitors cooperating with Nazis for me. 

This is a crap comparison. If you want to be honest, compare French-Jewish relations in 1940's (you can begin from this link
Agree with you but please remember that the comparison was drawn by Majkes and not by me. I was merely answering his insinuations that there was any point of comparison between both cases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France#The_Statute_on_Jews -

 

I gave my sources, your point is interesting but I'd like to see the sources… 

I'm Jewish… from Ukraine originally.

You compare destroyed Poland from 40s ruled by Communists and not independent to France year 2000 and You find France better behaving toward Jews. What a competition.
C'mon a century-long of violent antisemitic action in Poland can't be all due to the communists. Whatever the reason (religious hatred, populist manipulation, traditional xenophobia, etc) it had been ages since Poland hadn't been a safe heaven for the Jews.

You don't have a clue about situation after WWII in Poland so You don't have any idea what You are talking about.
Lol my stepfather was a Polish dissident, later important civil servant for the Polish government. I've followed step by step the Polish domestic turmoils from 1988 to 1996. That said I ain't no specialist but lets say I have some clues.

First learn some basic things than try to play specialist. It was a civil war in Poland. Poland was not independent. Main positions in goverment were often taken by Russian communist like Defence Ministry.
Hear me well, I am not thinking half a second to deny the fact that Poland was a dictatorship installed and maintained by violence and wickedness, closely monitored from Moscow but I don't see how this affected the aversion to Jews the Poles show during the period.

Tell me other country who apologise for incidents were there war less than 100 its citizens involved
France, Belgium, Germany, Holland, etc.

I e.g. don't feel any links to bandits that killed Jews in Jedwabne. They were traitors cooperating with Nazis for me.
That is where we will disagree. I don't see this event as the deed of some rare misguided criminals but as the extreme outburst of a general antisemitic feeling amongst the Poles. Not all of them, and hopefully nowadays not even majority. But during most of the 19th and 20th century it had been lets say a topos of Polish domestic history to have some violently antisemitic deeds and policies.

Here is a famous Jewish joke, I hope you won't see any malice in it:

An old Jew —called Moshe of course— is dying on his bed in Tel Aviv. To his loving wife —called Rachel of course—, he asks:
- Rachel, my love, are you here?
- Of course Moshe I'll always be here for you.
- And when we were kids and the cossaks burned our village and killed our parents, you were there?
- Of course Moshe.
- And when the German sent me to a concentration camp you were there?
- Of course Moshe.
- And when the Poles tried to kill me when we came back from the camps you were there?
- Of course Moshe.
- And when the communists tried to send me to Central Asia you were there?
- Of course Moshe.
- And when the British forbid me to come in the Holy Land and parked me in Cyprus, you were there?
- Of course Moshe.
- And when the Arabs raided my kibbutz and almost killed me you were there?
- Of course Moshe.
- And when my plane got hijacked you were there?
- Of course Moshe.
- And when I was in the bus that exploded you were there?
- Of course Moshe. And I am here now.
- Then go away dirty bitch you're bringing me bad luck.

That's good one I admit

 

Ad.1 I didn't compare sitiuation in Poland 1940 and France 2000. I was just talking about apologizing. read more carefully.

 

Ad.2 He gave his sources but I see You don't bother reading other posts just Your own opinion.

 

Ad.3 In 1968 many Jews had to escape from Poland. It was caused by fights for power in communist party. One part of its members wanted to get rid others ( in which there were many Jews ) so they started anisemitic propaganda. It was also a year of big anti comunist revolt in Poland so I asume You were talking about it.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3904943.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3904943.stm

 

French Jews 'must move to Israel'

France has seen a spate of attacks against Jewish targets Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has urged all French Jews to move to Israel immediately to escape anti-Semitism.

Before calling me a liar check what stepfather means.

It's easy for goverment to turn some people against other, isn't it?
So it is never the Poles' fault? Sorry I mean, the Polish population never had an active, radical and sizeable antisemitic minority whose deeds were covered by the silence of the majority, and all is due to the manipulations of a wicked elite. Here me well, the Poles are not unique, far from it. In the whole of Europe there have been considerable amounts of antisemitism. Lets say that where the Poles (and a few others) stand outis that they did so in a period rather close to us.

France had to apologise for state actions. This is uncomparable to spologising for few hundreds Poles.
Yeah and Switzerland apologized for the spoliations which obviously had been done only by a few bankers

Well maybe I got it rong but lets admit you were all but clear.
"Mahrabbal, You are talking constantly about Polish anti-semitism but maybe You should first have a look about Your own. Wasn't that in France that Jews wanted to escape of France because of anti-semitic atmosphere? Did You apologize for it? There is nothing like that in Poland."

Hum, I may have missed it because the post got deleted but as far as I can see he posted an interesting reference on 1943 but nothing on 1945-6 which was my topic.
 

Ad.3 In 1968 many Jews had to escape from Poland. It was caused by fights for power in communist party. One part of its members wanted to get rid others ( in which there were many Jews ) so they started anisemitic propaganda. It was also a year of big anti comunist revolt in Poland so I asume You were talking about it.
I don't see the point.

 

for what purpose will you use that note?

 

Rather than attempting to quote Sharon, I intented to contribute to the thread by bringing up news that had strongly grabbed my attention then. Actually a true diplomatic crises emerged after this declaration. What should be considered in a wider context is the fact that No Israeli top leader made such a call on the Polish Jews

To prove that you are a dirty zionist who diserves to be shot at sight.
 

 

 

As for Modern France, it is far from antisemitic.  While there are some racist politicians (Jean-Marie LePen comes to mind here), it remains one of the country with the most important Jewish community in Europe and the secular approach of the government assures that religion is rarely an issue.

 

Anti-Semitic was  rampant in late 19th century France.Newspapers and public officials openly cursed Jews.

 

Read the case of Dreyfus Affair.

 

 

 

Im Polish and Im not antisemite. How will you explain it?

 

I wouldnt dare to say that in Poland or France now, the mainstream is antisemitic. There are some people that are antisemitic as well as there are some people anti-(add here any word you like).

 

As for muslims I think that it is muslim world that put itself against western/christian/liberal/non muslim - or whatever world. After watching a movie in which muslim terrorists decapitate with little knife a guy from the west, everyone becomes antimuslim. Westerners or chirstians or however we call the people who are by muslisms considered as enemies - dont kidnapp muslim people and make movies of their decapitation. Nowadays none feel safe when traveling by plain he notices that on the board are people who are looking like Arabs or others from the muslim world. Whats more muslim people come to Europe and instead of assimilating with local society they create their own ghettos trying to live in the same way as they did in the countries that they came from with the same religious restrictions, ready to kill those who violate them. Theo van Gogh was maybe an idiot but he had every right to express in his country his opinion about muslims, but muslims muredered him for that.

 

Well, I do myself also travel a lot but i belive that it is hard to judge the people unless one live with them. I would like to travel to Iran as well but ill wait till ayatollah regime collapse :). Right now im preparing myself for the trip to Cuba (must visit it before Fidel will die :) ) but I cant find my passport which I didnt use for a year and slowly im getting panicked about it.

 

And I think it is unclear what exactly the word "antisemitism" means. There are some people who call others antisemites for saying anything that Jews might not like even if it is a fact.