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Jagatai Khan
Chieftain
Jeune Turc
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
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Posts: 1270
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Topic: Armenia vs. Azerbaijan Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 17:23 |
Ok.So answer only Karabakh problem.
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Zagros
Emperor
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 18:31 |
Karim-oglu was wanting a serious topic discussing the issue that he raised - because it is a fairly sensitive issue that can potentially lead to many undesirable and off-topic subjects I am moderating it very carefully.
I would appreciate if everyone from this point on only discussed the original subject. Many thanks.
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Neoptolemos
Colonel
Joined: 02-Feb-2006
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 20:48 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Maybe your officers are being trained in Turkey, but ours are being trained in Greece
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Is that right? Do you have any links/sources about this? (I know this may be only remotely relevant with the subject)
Edited by Neoptolemos - 01-Feb-2007 at 20:56
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mamikon
Sultan
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 21:21 |
Greece
Greece is Armenia's closest ally in NATO and the two cooporate on multiple issues, thus a number of Armenian officers are
trained in Greece every year, and military aid/material assistance has been provided to Armenia. In 2003, the two countries
signed a military cooperation accord, under which Greece will increase the number of Armenian servicemen trained at the military
and military-medical academies in Athens.
In February 2003, Armenia sent 34 peacekeepers to Kosovo where they became part of the Greek contingent. Officials in Yerevan have said the Armenian military plans
to substantially increase the size of its peace-keeping detachment and counts on Greek assistance to the effort
http://www.answers.com/topic/military-of-armenia
I have read it at others places but this will suffice
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Kerimoglu
Consul
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 04:15 |
, No Mamikon, u was not lying, and I never say anyone that he lies. U was just ironic to my question, and so ironic that, tried to say Armenia is the worlds strongest nation/country. That is why I warned u about your attitude. Unlike you, I think war is going to happen, sooner or later. And I did not not ask whether it will happen or not. I asked, if it will happen, which side would win and why. I, of course support my side, and I believe that Azerbaijan would win, and I put several arguments in, like our population is almost 4-5 times bigger than yours. Officially, armored vehicles, mbt's and artillery we have is 1.5 times bigger than yours (Sirius gave those information), we have the same ammount and almost the same types of warplanes. You have 102 base in Gumru, which is Russian, but officially they do not have a right to interfior. If u say - yes they will - then I should just add that Azerbaijani government was asked for 10 000 Afghans help, but we refused, which I think was one of the great mistakes of Azerbaijni government. Those two minorities - I dont know what are u talking about. Do u mean Talish's and Lazgi's? No they weren't problem, the problem was the civil war between 3 powers, which at the end two lost and one took the throne.
Anything else?
Oh, u want to say me trained by Greeks, Armenians will fight better??? But this is another topic.
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History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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mamikon
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 15:54 |
Originally posted by Kerimoglu
, No Mamikon, u was not lying, and I never say anyone that he lies. U
was just ironic to my question, and so ironic that, tried to say
Armenia is the worlds strongest nation/country. That is why I warned u about your attitude. |
Which one of my comments are you referring to. By the way, what makes
you think, I implied that Armenia is the world's strongest...thats very
silly
Originally posted by Kerimoglu
Unlike you, I think war is going to happen, sooner or later. And I did
not not ask whether it will happen or not. I asked, if it will happen,
which side would win and why. I, of course support my side, and I
believe that Azerbaijan would win, and I put several arguments in, like
our population is almost 4-5 times bigger than yours. Officially,
armored vehicles, mbt's and artillery we have is 1.5 times bigger than
yours (Sirius gave those information), we have the same ammount and
almost the same types of warplanes. You have 102 base in Gumru, which
is Russian, but officially they do not have a right to interfior. If u
say - yes they will - then I should just add that Azerbaijani
government was asked for 10 000 Afghans help, but we refused, which I
think was one of the great mistakes of Azerbaijni government. Those two
minorities - I dont know what are u talking about. Do u mean Talish's
and Lazgi's? No they weren't problem, the problem was the civil war
between 3 powers, which at the end two lost and one took the throne.
Anything else? |
Well, what can I say, you believe in war. I choose to believe in peace.
But if war does start, I wish you good luck on the field...you and the
other 100,000 innocent adolescents whose lives your state is willing to
sacrifice, for absolutely nothing.
With respect to statistics. Azerbaijan has 3x the population, not 4 o
5. Moreover, 10% of it are minorities (excluding the Armenians).
Your army does have more planes, and tanks, and manpower. That really didnt help in the first war....
10,000 Afgans? where would tou get 10,000 Afghans (btw you are aware
that there were 1000 Afghan merceneries fighting in the first war
right?)
I have read that there was a Talish rebellion in 1993, suppressed by Heydar Aliev.
I really find it useless, on debating a war that probably will not take
place Especially when we know but a speck of information on the
countries involved.
Originally posted by Kerimoglu
Oh, u want to say me trained by Greeks, Armenians will fight better??? But this is another topic. |
Well, seeing how the Turkish army seems to be most effective fighting
women and children, I would place my bet on the Greek army training
process, but of course, this too, is up to a debate. By the way, Armenian officers are being trained in Russia too.
Edited by mamikon - 04-Feb-2007 at 15:55
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Roberts
Chieftain
aka axeman
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Location: Riga
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Posts: 1138
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:20 |
Wasn't Russia during Karabakh war selling weapons on both sides? I heard something like this - that they sold tanks to Azeris while Anti-tank weapons to Armenians.
Edited by axeman - 04-Feb-2007 at 16:20
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Batu
Baron
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Location: Barad-dur
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 01:09 |
Well, seeing how the Turkish army seems to be most effective fighting
women and children, I would place my bet on the Greek army training
process, but of course, this too, is up to a debate. By the way, Armenian officers are being trained in Russia too.
[/QUOTE]
hey what do you mean "Turkish army seems to be most effective fighting
women and children".we fought the hardest guerilla\terrorists in the
world.
Edited by Batu - 05-Feb-2007 at 01:13
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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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mamikon
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 02:00 |
I mean, seeing how the Turkish army seems to be most effective fighting
women and children, I would place my bet on the Greek army training
process, but of course, this too, is up to a debate. By the way, Armenian officers are being trained in Russia too.
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Kerimoglu
Consul
Joined: 05-Oct-2006
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 03:16 |
Maybe "you" should beat Karabakh before you get a chance to play with the big dogs
- That was what I was referring dear Mamikon.
Armenia is the world's strongest...thats very silly
-No no no, dear mamikon, this is absolutely clever. But I doubt it still, u know. U need to proove it.
Well, what can I say, you believe in war. I choose to believe in peace. But if war does start, I wish you good luck on the field...you and the other 100,000 innocent adolescents whose lives your state is willing to sacrifice, for absolutely nothing.
- Here, dear Mamikon, I would guess u are right. U know, It is life, and everyone should believe in something. Thank you for your comment, U too, have a good luck with your peace, after invading Karabgh. U know, it has nothing to do with war, btw, in my eyes, it is revange. And may be motherland meens "absolutely nothing" for you, but u know, we are TURKS, man, 100 000 is absolutely nothing for us - they are going to be SHAHID for Magnificent Allah and Heroes for our Honor, even if they lose.
With respect to statistics. Azerbaijan has 3x the population, not 4 o 5. Moreover, 10% of it are minorities (excluding the Armenians).
-What does World Fact Book say, is a bit different, u know. May be u want to say, with respect to Armenian Government Statistics. And even 3x is enough for us to win - I think so.
10,000 Afgans? where would tou get 10,000 Afghans (btw you are aware that there were 1000 Afghan merceneries fighting in the first war right?)
-Yes, they only accepted 1000, becouse 10 000 asked for trouphy, and the government refused, but 1000 fought for Jihad, voluntaary.
I have read that there was a Talish rebellion in 1993, suppressed by Heydar Aliev.
-U are right here. And another rebellion took place in Ganja, by Rasul Guliyev. And those 2 rebellions did have a negative influence in war. But do not hhesitate on believing that they will not be problem in next war.
Well, seeing how the Turkish army seems to be most effective fighting women and children, I would place my bet on the Greek army training process, but of course, this too, is up to a debate. By the way, Armenian officers are being trained in Russia too.
-Do not use, please, words and sentences which may touch some feelings of people. This is really dangerous, u know that - better than me. I am telling again, This is not the topic to discuss whether Turkish army is Better or Greek, I am not giving u answer for this, which I believe is the very right thing.
Thank you, Kerimoglu
Edited by Kerimoglu - 05-Feb-2007 at 03:24
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History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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kajdom
Janissary
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 05:30 |
bothside are in the same size. no one win. both armies are crapy.
Edited by kajdom - 05-Feb-2007 at 05:38
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Kerimoglu
Consul
Joined: 05-Oct-2006
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:50 |
How cute, thanks dduuuuuuude
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History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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Bulldog
Caliph
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Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 2800
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 08:00 |
Maziar
Don't be so optimistic Kerimoghlu, i think Iran will help Armenia, the relations between Iran and Azerbayjan are not very well.
Actually relations between Azerbaycan and Iran have been improving. In addition to this funding of Azeri groups has increased by those who want to see Iran divided. Recently there were huge protests in Tebriz, however, currently there isn't a huge problem right now, unfortunately there are those that want to see this escalate and become a problem for Iran.
Therefore I have to disagree, Iran will not support Iran infact it could face some public pressure to help Azeri's in the current climate.
Although if Iran did help Iran, there could also be the possibility of the U.S using it as a pretext to attack Iran in the name of protecting Azerbaycan from agressers.
In conclusion I don't think Iran will get involved, its an unecessary risk and potential crisis point.
Today Azerbaycan could re-take Karabakh if she wanted however, I think she shall wait. Why? well as every month goes by Azerbaycan becomes strateticall, economically, pollitically and millitary stronger while the opposite is happening to Armenia. B-t-c is complete, the Kars-Tblisi-Baku railway has been signed, Kazak and Turkmen oil and gas extensions have been signed, Sah Deniz project is becomming a reality, the EU wants the go ahead with Nabucco, Israel is interested in Blue Stream etc etc
It's a matter of time before the next battle, there will be a war, Armenia has illegally occupied Azerbaycan land and comitted massacres and humanitarian crimes against her people. Now if Azerbaycan have the capabilities to do so ofcourse they will intervine and it's logical for them to do so taking back what is internationally accepted as their's.
ofcourse nobody knows exactly what would happen but the way things are going, Azerbaycan is a far greater growing power in the Southern Caucaus region.
Edited by Bulldog - 05-Feb-2007 at 08:03
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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DayI
Sultan
Joined: 30-May-2005
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 09:38 |
Originally posted by mamikon
I mean, seeing how the Turkish army seems to be most effective fighting
women and children, I would place my bet on the Greek army training
process, but of course, this too, is up to a debate. By the way, Armenian officers are being trained in Russia too.
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Mamikon where you sirious with this underlined comment? And how effective do you think that Greece army is? Did you saw how Turkish soldiers where teaching Greeks how to use an weapon at a Nato naval expedition? Everythime when a Turkish plane go's up into Aegan see, you hear them screaming "OMG Turks are coming" and knocking the doors of Nato claiming violations of Greek-so-called-12-mile-airspace.
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DayI
Sultan
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 09:39 |
Originally posted by kajdom
bothside are in the same size. no one win. both armies are crapy.
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Thanks we needed your well argumented comment in here really, it was for me a huge moral boost.
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Antioxos
Consul
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Location: Hellas
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 09:59 |
Originally posted by DayI
Originally posted by mamikon
I mean, seeing how the Turkish army seems to be most effective fighting women and children, I would place my bet on the Greek army training process, but of course, this too, is up to a debate. By the way, Armenian officers are being trained in Russia too. |
Mamikon where you sirious with this underlined comment? And how effective do you think that Greece army is? Did you saw how Turkish soldiers where teaching Greeks how to use an weapon at a Nato naval expedition?
Everythime when a Turkish plane go's up into Aegan see, you hear them screaming "OMG Turks are coming" and knocking the doors of Nato claiming violations of Greek-so-called-12-mile-airspace.
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I m generally against military logic but i have to remind you the incident in river Evros that happen in the beginning of 1980 decade with 2 Greek soldiers and a Greek civilian and 3 Turkish soldiers and a Turkish officer the result was 2 dead soldier (1 Greek and 1 Turkish) and 1 dead Turkish officer. As you can see the effectiveness of the Turkish army on this incident was low. On the other hand lets see which Greek government is gonna bring the Turkish bid for E.U. into the Greek parliament and ask the vote of pm people with open the Turkish aggressiveness in Aegean
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Batu
Baron
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Location: Barad-dur
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 10:09 |
that doesnt show effectiveness.1974 is effectiveness.3 soldiers are not an army.probably the other greek soldiers fled anyway.
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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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mamikon
Sultan
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 10:16 |
Originally posted by Kerimoglu
- Here, dear Mamikon, I would guess u are right. U know, It is life,
and everyone should believe in something. Thank you for your comment, U
too, have a good luck with your peace, after invading Karabgh. U know,
it has nothing to do with war, btw, in my eyes, it is revange. And may
be motherland meens "absolutely nothing" for you, but
u know, we are TURKS, man, 100 000 is absolutely nothing for us - |
Thats what happens when a nation sucks the life out of a smaller one in its boundaries for 70 years or so.
Of course you are TURKS, 100,000 should be nothing for you (perhaps
thats why your state was sending human wavaes composed of 15 years old
boys ). Are you going to be on of those 100,000? Is your brother? your best friend? (or both...)
Originally posted by kerimoglu
they
are going to be SHAHID for Magnificent Allah and Heroes for our Honor,
even if they lose. |
no comment here...
Edited by mamikon - 05-Feb-2007 at 10:17
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mamikon
Sultan
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 10:23 |
Originally posted by DayI
Mamikon where you sirious with this underlined comment?
And how effective do you think that Greece army is? Did you saw how
Turkish soldiers where teaching Greeks how to use an weapon at a Nato
naval expedition?
Everythime
when a Turkish plane go's up into Aegan see, you hear them screaming
"OMG Turks are coming" and knocking the doors of Nato claiming
violations of Greek-so-called-12-mile-airspace. |
I was very serious about the underlying comment. That could be due to
the fact that I detest the Turkish army, and the precious Gendarmerie.
But more importantly, how effective can that army be, if they couldnt
beat Kurdish irregulars since 1927...If an army needs to remove
200,000 civillians to catch 1000 rogue fighters, it speaks loads about
its effectiveness.
As for the Greek army, it did stall German/Italian advance into Russia for 1.5 months.
Edited by mamikon - 05-Feb-2007 at 10:25
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Yiannis
Sultan
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 10:27 |
There was enough war-mongering and insults being thrown around over this thread. I'm particularly negatively surprised that some of the older members of the forum do not seem to have learned much from it.
It is now closed!
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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