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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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Posts: 287 		  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: An Indian Globe
    Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 05:55

 
An Indian Globe

 

 

On RHS, an Indian Globe taken from India is depicted, but now housed in the Oxford museum of Science. Recently, Kapil Raj in his book has made reference about it.

 

Kapil Raj, Circulation and Emergence of Modern Mapping: Great Britain and Eatly Colonial India, 1764-1820, in Relocating Modern Science Circulation and Construction of Scientific Knowledge in South Asia and Europe, Permanent Black, New Delhi, 2006.

 

Earlier, Simon Digby has presented a paper on it:

Simon Digby, The Bhugola of Ksema Karna: a dated piece of sixteenth century Indian metalwar', Art and Archaeology Research Papers, 4 (1973), 10-31.

Photo courtesy from: http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/database/imagel.htm?Imgno=156048

 

The details given by the museum are as follows:

 

Inventory no. 51703

Bhugola or Earth-Ball, by Ksema Karna, Indian, 1571

 

Date:

1571

Maker:

Ksema Karna

Inscription:

Signed in devanagari script with the date as a chronogram: "In the Saka year 1493 in the reign of the earth-lord Viraji by Ksema Karna the learned [was] the earth-ball created"

Provenance:

Presented by Captain W. H. Cobb.

Place:

India

Notes:

Ball in two parts, the lower flattened, the upper rising to a peak. There is a (snapped) hinge and a locking clasp.
Mounted on a later wooden stand with three elephant supporters.
With two circular sheets of MS transcription and English translation.

Materials:

Brass

Size:

Diameter 250 mm

Accession no.:

1927-10

Other ID:
Numbers

2191 

Texts:

Inventory no. 51703 - Reference
Inventory no. 51703 - Old Label Text
Article from Sphaera
Indian Bhugola
Inventory no. 51703 - Additional photographic material

 

So naturally, a question arises as to what happened to the other globes of India, as such globes and armillary spheres have been mentioned in the Siddhantic works extensively:

 

There had been different types of Armillary spheres (Golabandha) described in the Siddhantic works:

     Bhubhagola (terrestrial and stellar sphere) Surya Siddhanta, Chapter.XIII (1-16).

     Kagolabanha (Sphere of the Sky)

     Bagholabandha (Sphere of asterisms)

     Grahagolabandha (Sphere of planets)

 

Thus, from the period of Surya Siddhanta (c.3100-300 BCE / 5th to 11th centuries CE), it is evident that Globs and armillary spheres were used. The instruction for construction of wooden sphere has been so meticulous, there cannot be any doubt about its manufacture, existence and usage since that period. It is interesting and intriguing to note, Rev. Ebenezer Burgess (1805-1870) ridicules such verses, as with is all scientific capacity, it is unbelievable that he could not understand such an easy description. Thus, it is evident that in spite of knowing that Indians had globes and armillary spheres, they wanted to suppress.

 

If anybody reads the verses of Gola or Sphericss (Section IV, verses.1-21), it would be clear that they could be understood only with practical demonstration of what is described shown on different spheres. Incidentally, the very next verse (22), Aryabhata instructs, A light globe made of wood perfectly spherical and of even weight all round should be turned round by the observer till the unit of time through his intelligence by means of mercury, oil and water. Thus, it is evident that Globes, armillary spheres and related astronomical instruments had not been myth, as without which, such observations could not have been made and recorded to bring out treatises, which are discussed and debated even today by scientists and mathematicians and astronomers.

 

If the learned readers of the AE forum could throw more light, I would be very much grateful to them.



Edited by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao - 26-Jan-2007 at 07:31
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 03:40
The Tamils have been credited with a proverb, "Tiraikadal odiyum tiraviyam tedu" (Even by travelling seas, you earn money).
 
Therefore, the shipping technology of the ancient Tamils cannot be doubted. When I mention this, a Dutch ship has arrived at Chennai / Madras Port designed and constructed based on some 17th century ship.
 
Similarly, models of Tamil ships, as found in the literature should be constructed, and similar type of voyages conducted to prove the maritime capabilities of the Tamils. Just giving literary evidences do not serve the purpose.
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Posts: 315 		  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 04:57
 
The above website claims that it is the oldest globe of the world. It comments as follows:

"Believed to be the oldest celestial globe in the world. Only the globe is original; the base with the horizon and the meridian are more recent. An Arabic inscription states that the globe was made in Valencia by Ibrhim 'Ibn Sad and his son Muhammad in year 478 of the Hegira (1085 of the Christian era). The instrument was acquired and studied in the second half of the nineteenth century by Ferdinando Meucci, director of the Museo di Fisica e Storia Naturale of Florence".

How, then Indians could have globe dated thereafter, as mentioned above?
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Posts: 0 		  Quote ASHWINKUMARIYER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 02:59

I do not know exactly on th date of the Ksema Karna Globe, but it well corroborates with Dharmic Scriptures mentioning that earth a globe was supported by elephants. I remember Ramayana mentioning in Balakanda (in the Story of Sagara) that earth was carried by Four Elephants bye the names of Virupaksha, Mahapadma, Bhadra and Sumanasa. However, the Ksema karna Globe has only three elephants.

It has to be noticed that earth was considered to be flat by western scientists till a few centuries back, while earth was well mentioned to be a globe in scriptures such as Matsya Purana. Though scientifically it is obvious that the earth cannot be carried by four elephants, philosophically the four elephants can be interpreted to Dharshanas.
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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 09:28
Originally posted by ASHWINKUMARIYER

I do not know exactly on th date of the Ksema Karna Globe, but it well corroborates with Dharmic Scriptures mentioning that earth a globe was supported by elephants. I remember Ramayana mentioning in Balakanda (in the Story of Sagara) that earth was carried by Four Elephants bye the names of Virupaksha, Mahapadma, Bhadra and Sumanasa. However, the Ksema karna Globe has only three elephants.

It has to be noticed that earth was considered to be flat by western scientists till a few centuries back, while earth was well mentioned to be a globe in scriptures such as Matsya Purana. Though scientifically it is obvious that the earth cannot be carried by four elephants, philosophically the four elephants can be interpreted to Dharshanas.
 
The earth was not considered to be flat by western scientists: that is one of the most popular myths in history. It was only the church and uneducated people who believed that. The Greeks knew at least as early as the 7th century BC that the Earth was round.
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 09:41
That second globe is a celestial globe. It depicts the skies and the stars, not the earth. So that one might well be the oldest celestial globe, without being the oldest earth globe.
 
And I agree with Decebal in part. But in fact even the church new the earth was round, and never even denied the fact. Dante described a round world in his Divine Commedia in 1300, a work much favored by the Church.

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Posts: 315 		  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 04:02

When exactly, the western scientists started considering that the earth was not flat?

Who was the Greek in in 7th cent.BCE considered that the earth was round and the evidence to that effect?

Who had the concept of "Celestial globe" first?

Can evidence be produced for such claims?
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Posts: 0 		  Quote ASHWINKUMARIYER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 04:14

I just am curious on what are the contents of Ksema Karna Globe. I want to compare to description of India and World in the puranas.
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 04:29
Originally posted by Decebal

The Greeks knew at least as early as the 7th century BC that the Earth was round.
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan

Who was the Greek in in 7th cent.BCE considered that the earth was round and the evidence to that effect?
 
The info Decebal gave you is common knowledge.
 
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Indeed. I see no need to give 'evidence' for the obvious. The tale that people once thought the earth was flat was thought up in the 16th century, an age when 'middle-ages bashing' was popular. A lot of fables about the 'low culture and knowledge' of the Middle Ages were thought up then, with the aim of boasting the age's own achievements.

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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 05:17
Aristotle was the first to write about it in his own words, but such people like Thales in Miletus and Pythagoras are also understood to have believed this.
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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 09:30
Indeed, as the others have said, the fact that the Greeks knew the Earth to be round is common knowledge.  I invite you to read the entries in the Encyclopedia Britannica on ancient Greek astronomy, Thales of Miletus and Pythagoras. Thales probably knew that the Earth was round as early as the late 7th century BC , while Pythagoras explicitly says it.
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Posts: 287 		  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 12:02

I have already mentioned as follows:

 

So naturally, a question arises as to what happened to the other globes of India, as such globes and armillary spheres have been mentioned in the Siddhantic works extensively:

 

There had been different types of Armillary spheres (Golabandha) described in the Siddhantic works:

     Bhubhagola (terrestrial and stellar sphere) Surya Siddhanta, Chapter.XIII (1-16).

     Kagolabanha (Sphere of the Sky)

     Bagholabandha (Sphere of asterisms)

     Grahagolabandha (Sphere of planets)

 

Thus, from the period of Surya Siddhanta (c.3100-300 BCE / 5th to 11th centuries CE), it is evident that Globs and armillary spheres were used.

The question is what happened to the Globes used by the Indians.

 

Coming to the Greeks, had they considered that the earth was round, it is OK, but where is the proof? Had they any such globes / spheres?

 

Generally, the concept of shape of round is taken as circle. So configuring earth as Round or circle is different from conceiving it as a sphere or globe.

 

That is why perhaps, AELFGIFU was referring to 16th century people were thinking that the earth was flat, in spite of the Greeks considering that the earth was round!
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 12:29
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao

That is why perhaps, AELFGIFU was referring to 16th century people were thinking that the earth was flat, in spite of the Greeks considering that the earth was round!

 
I did not say that. Please do not try to twist my words, it makes you look stupid.
 
I said that in the 16th century, it was popular to make up tales about the 'stupidity' of the middle ages. Things like the 'prima nocta', as still so fruitfully displayed in the Braveheart movie for instance, was thought up in the 16th century. And the tale that people in the middle ages did not know the world was spherical was also thought up in this time.
 
Like I have told before: One piece of proof is Dante, who described the earth as being spherical in 1300, in this way:
 
The difference is that in the middle ages, people not being aware of the continent of America, and only being vaguely aware of Africa and Asia, estimated the sphere a lot smaller. Because the ancient Greek knowledge was lost to them.

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Posts: 287 		  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 21:12
This is what you wrote:
 
ALFIQUFU: Indeed. I see no need to give 'evidence' for the obvious. The tale that people once thought the earth was flat was thought up in the 16th century, an age when 'middle-ages bashing' was popular. A lot of fables about the 'low culture and knowledge' of the Middle Ages were thought up then, with the aim of boasting the age's own achievements.
 
Now, you claim with the following:
"I did not say that. Please do not try to twist my words, it makes you look stupid.
 
I said that in the 16th century, it was popular to make up tales about the 'stupidity' of the middle ages. Things like the 'prima nocta', as still so fruitfully displayed in the Braveheart movie for instance, was thought up in the 16th century. And the tale that people in the middle ages did not know the world was spherical was also thought up in this time".
 
So how the trasition had taken place?
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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 23:52
The transition took place during an age of European civilization, the Renaissance, when a medieval Germanic culture rediscovered its ancient  Latin and Greek predecessor and tried to emulate it again. People starting reading the Classics, wanted to start matching the architectural feats of the Roman empire, and founded universities in which the language of instruction was Latin, even if Latin was no longer a vernacular language. To top it off, the fundamental fracture of the one institution which dominated the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church, (this fracture is commonly referred to as the Reformation), a century later, just added to the feeling of disconnect from the old Medieval Germanic culture and made the Classical world as a possible model for the new world to come.
 
Naturally, such a society would want to distance itself as much as possible from its medieval roots that it had abandoned, so the first the intellectual elite and later the common people started to invent a whole mythology on the evils and absurdities of the said period. So you get the myths that they were ignorant and superstitious, that they had no idea of the world they lived in.. and so on and so forth. It is this rhetoric which lay unchallenged until the Romantic revival of the 19th century which still shapes the imagination of most people.
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Posts: 287 		  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:21

The world chess champion raised some fundamental questions:

Without zero, how the Romans had done their calculation for constructing buildings?

With Roman numbers I, II, III etc, how they would have done multiplication and division?
 
How the values of Sine, Cosine etc., would have been worked out?
 
How the spherical trigonometry etc., would have been thought about?
 
 
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:32
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao

This is what you wrote:
 
ALFIQUFU: Indeed. I see no need to give 'evidence' for the obvious. The tale that people once thought the earth was flat was thought up in the 16th century, an age when 'middle-ages bashing' was popular. A lot of fables about the 'low culture and knowledge' of the Middle Ages were thought up then, with the aim of boasting the age's own achievements.
 
Now, you claim with the following:
"I did not say that. Please do not try to twist my words, it makes you look stupid.
 
I said that in the 16th century, it was popular to make up tales about the 'stupidity' of the middle ages. Things like the 'prima nocta', as still so fruitfully displayed in the Braveheart movie for instance, was thought up in the 16th century. And the tale that people in the middle ages did not know the world was spherical was also thought up in this time".
 
So how the trasition had taken place?
 
Geez, do I really have to explain the difference between
 
16th century people were thinking that the earth was flat (your quote)
and
"The tale that people once thought the earth was flat was thought up in the 16th century" (my quote)
 
seems pretty obvious no?

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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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Posts: 287 		  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:39

O yes,

 
I have acknowledged your remarks also!
 
Anyway, note DECEBAL has responded differently.
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:48
No, Decebal has in his reply, explained the exact same thing as what I was saying, only more elaborately and far more clearly.
 
Edit -  by the way, your signature is incorrect. History is not exactly what happened in the past, but that what has been written down in the past, adapted and changed by that what people thought to be true and what people wanted to be true.
 
Exactly what happened is the Past, no more, no less.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 22-Mar-2007 at 09:50

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