|
An Indian Globe
|
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/database/imagel.htm?Imgno=156048 - - - - - - - - -  |
On RHS, an Indian Globe taken from India is depicted, but now housed in the Oxford museum of Science. Recently, Kapil Raj in his book has made reference about it.
Kapil Raj, Circulation and Emergence of Modern Mapping: Great Britain and Eatly Colonial India, 1764-1820, in Relocating Modern Science – Circulation and Construction of Scientific Knowledge in South Asia and Europe, Permanent Black, New Delhi, 2006.
Earlier, Simon Digby has presented a paper on it:
Simon Digby, The Bhugola of Ksema Karna: a dated piece of sixteenth century Indian metalwar', Art and Archaeology Research Papers, 4 (1973), 10-31. |
|
Photo courtesy from: http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/database/imagel.htm?Imgno=156048 -
The details given by the museum are as follows:
|
Inventory no. 51703
Bhugola or Earth-Ball, by Ksema Karna, Indian, 1571 |
|
Date: |
1571 |
|
Maker: |
Ksema Karna |
|
Inscription: |
Signed in devanagari script with the date as a chronogram: "In the Saka year 1493 in the reign of the earth-lord Viraji by Ksema Karna the learned [was] the earth-ball created" |
|
Provenance: |
Presented by Captain W. H. Cobb. |
|
Place: |
India |
|
Notes: |
Ball in two parts, the lower flattened, the upper rising to a peak. There is a (snapped) hinge and a locking clasp.
Mounted on a later wooden stand with three elephant supporters.
With two circular sheets of MS transcription and English translation. |
|
Materials: |
Brass |
|
Size: |
Diameter 250 mm |
|
Accession no.: |
1927-10 |
|
Other ID:
Numbers |
2191 |
|
Texts: |
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/database/texts.htm?ID=4045501 - - Inventory no. 51703 - Old Label Text
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/database/texts.htm?ID=4046968 - - Indian Bhugola
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/database/texts.htm?ID=4048249 -
So naturally, a question arises as to what happened to the other globes of India, as such globes and armillary spheres have been mentioned in the Siddhantic works extensively:
There had been different types of Armillary spheres (Golabandha) described in the Siddhantic works:
ý Bhubhagola (terrestrial and stellar sphere) – Surya Siddhanta, Chapter.XIII (1-16).
ý Kagolabanha (Sphere of the Sky)
ý Bagholabandha (Sphere of asterisms)
ý Grahagolabandha (Sphere of planets)
Thus, from the period of Surya Siddhanta (c.3100-300 BCE / 5th to 11th centuries CE), it is evident that Globs and armillary spheres were used. The instruction for construction of wooden sphere has been so meticulous, there cannot be any doubt about its manufacture, existence and usage since that period. It is interesting and intriguing to note, Rev. Ebenezer Burgess (1805-1870) ridicules such verses, as with is all scientific capacity, it is unbelievable that he could not understand such an easy description. Thus, it is evident that in spite of knowing that Indians had globes and armillary spheres, they wanted to suppress.
If anybody reads the verses of Gola or Sphericss (Section IV, verses.1-21), it would be clear that they could be understood only with practical demonstration of what is described shown on different spheres. Incidentally, the very next verse (22), Aryabhata instructs, “A light globe made of wood perfectly spherical and of even weight all round should be turned round by the observer till the unit of time through his intelligence by means of mercury, oil and water”. Thus, it is evident that Globes, armillary spheres and related astronomical instruments had not been myth, as without which, such observations could not have been made and recorded to bring out treatises, which are discussed and debated even today by scientists and mathematicians and astronomers.
If the learned readers of the AE forum could throw more light, I would be very much grateful to them.
-------------
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
|
Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 03:40
|
The Tamils have been credited with a proverb, "Tiraikadal odiyum tiraviyam tedu" (Even by travelling seas, you earn money).
Therefore, the shipping technology of the ancient Tamils cannot be doubted. When I mention this, a Dutch ship has arrived at Chennai / Madras Port designed and constructed based on some 17th century ship.
Similarly, models of Tamil ships, as found in the literature should be constructed, and similar type of voyages conducted to prove the maritime capabilities of the Tamils. Just giving literary evidences do not serve the purpose.
|
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 04:57
http://brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/museum/esim.asp?c=401001 - brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/museum/esim.asp?c=401001
The above website claims that it is the oldest globe of the world. It comments as follows:
"Believed to be the oldest celestial globe in the world. Only the globe is original; the base with the horizon and the meridian are more recent. An Arabic inscription states that the globe was made in Valencia by Ibrâhim 'Ibn Saîd and his son Muhammad in year 478 of the Hegira (1085 of the Christian era). The instrument was acquired and studied in the second half of the nineteenth century by Ferdinando Meucci, director of the Museo di Fisica e Storia Naturale of Florence".
How, then Indians could have globe dated thereafter, as mentioned above?
|
Posted By: ASHWINKUMARIYER
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 02:59
|
I do not know exactly on th date of the Ksema Karna Globe, but it well corroborates with Dharmic Scriptures mentioning that earth a globe was supported by elephants. I remember Ramayana mentioning in Balakanda (in the Story of Sagara) that earth was carried by Four Elephants bye the names of Virupaksha, Mahapadma, Bhadra and Sumanasa. However, the Ksema karna Globe has only three elephants.
It has to be noticed that earth was considered to be flat by western scientists till a few centuries back, while earth was well mentioned to be a globe in scriptures such as Matsya Purana. Though scientifically it is obvious that the earth cannot be carried by four elephants, philosophically the four elephants can be interpreted to Dharshanas.
|
Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 09:28
Originally posted by ASHWINKUMARIYER
I do not know exactly on th date of the Ksema Karna Globe, but it well corroborates with Dharmic Scriptures mentioning that earth a globe was supported by elephants. I remember Ramayana mentioning in Balakanda (in the Story of Sagara) that earth was carried by Four Elephants bye the names of Virupaksha, Mahapadma, Bhadra and Sumanasa. However, the Ksema karna Globe has only three elephants.
It has to be noticed that earth was considered to be flat by western scientists till a few centuries back, while earth was well mentioned to be a globe in scriptures such as Matsya Purana. Though scientifically it is obvious that the earth cannot be carried by four elephants, philosophically the four elephants can be interpreted to Dharshanas. |
The earth was not considered to be flat by western scientists: that is one of the most popular myths in history. It was only the church and uneducated people who believed that. The Greeks knew at least as early as the 7th century BC that the Earth was round.
-------------
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
|
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 09:41
|
That second globe is a celestial globe. It depicts the skies and the stars, not the earth. So that one might well be the oldest celestial globe, without being the oldest earth globe.
And I agree with Decebal in part. But in fact even the church new the earth was round, and never even denied the fact. Dante described a round world in his Divine Commedia in 1300, a work much favored by the Church.
-------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
|
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 04:02
|
When exactly, the western scientists started considering that the earth was not flat?
Who was the Greek in in 7th cent.BCE considered that the earth was round and the evidence to that effect?
Who had the concept of "Celestial globe" first?
Can evidence be produced for such claims?
|
Posted By: ASHWINKUMARIYER
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 04:14
|
I just am curious on what are the contents of Ksema Karna Globe. I want to compare to description of India and World in the puranas.
|
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 04:29
Originally posted by Decebal
The Greeks knew at least as early as the 7th century BC that the Earth was round. |
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan
Who was the Greek in in 7th cent.BCE considered that the earth was round and the evidence to that effect? |
The info Decebal gave you is common knowledge.
|
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 04:48
Indeed. I see no need to give 'evidence' for the obvious. The tale that people once thought the earth was flat was thought up in the 16th century, an age when 'middle-ages bashing' was popular. A lot of fables about the 'low culture and knowledge' of the Middle Ages were thought up then, with the aim of boasting the age's own achievements.
-------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
|
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 05:17
|
Aristotle was the first to write about it in his own words, but such people like http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/thales1.html#B -
|
Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 09:30
Indeed, as the others have said, the fact that the Greeks knew the Earth to be round is common knowledge. I invite you to read the entries in the Encyclopedia Britannica on ancient Greek astronomy, Thales of Miletus and Pythagoras. Thales probably knew that the Earth was round as early as the late 7th century BC , while Pythagoras explicitly says it.
-------------
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
|
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 12:02
|
I have already mentioned as follows:
|
So naturally, a question arises as to what happened to the other globes of India, as such globes and armillary spheres have been mentioned in the Siddhantic works extensively:
There had been different types of Armillary spheres (Golabandha) described in the Siddhantic works:
ý Bhubhagola (terrestrial and stellar sphere) – Surya Siddhanta, Chapter.XIII (1-16).
ý Kagolabanha (Sphere of the Sky)
ý Bagholabandha (Sphere of asterisms)
ý Grahagolabandha (Sphere of planets)
Thus, from the period of Surya Siddhanta (c.3100-300 BCE / 5th to 11th centuries CE), it is evident that Globs and armillary spheres were used. |
The question is what happened to the Globes used by the Indians.
Coming to the Greeks, had they considered that “the earth was round”, it is OK, but where is the proof? Had they any such globes / spheres?
Generally, the concept of shape of “round” is taken as “circle”. So configuring earth as “Round” or “circle” is different from conceiving it as a “sphere” or “globe”.
That is why perhaps, AELFGIFU was referring to “16th century people were thinking that the earth was flat”, in spite of the Greeks considering that “the earth was round”!
-------------
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
|
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 12:29
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
That is why perhaps, AELFGIFU was referring to “16th century people were thinking that the earth was flat”, in spite of the Greeks considering that “the earth was round”! |
I did not say that. Please do not try to twist my words, it makes you look stupid.
I said that in the 16th century, it was popular to make up tales about the 'stupidity' of the middle ages. Things like the 'prima nocta', as still so fruitfully displayed in the Braveheart movie for instance, was thought up in the 16th century. And the tale that people in the middle ages did not know the world was spherical was also thought up in this time.
Like I have told before: One piece of proof is Dante, who described the earth as being spherical in 1300, in this way:
The difference is that in the middle ages, people not being aware of the continent of America, and only being vaguely aware of Africa and Asia, estimated the sphere a lot smaller. Because the ancient Greek knowledge was lost to them.
-------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
|
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 21:12
|
This is what you wrote:
ALFIQUFU: Indeed. I see no need to give 'evidence' for the obvious. The tale that people once thought the earth was flat was thought up in the 16th century, an age when 'middle-ages bashing' was popular. A lot of fables about the 'low culture and knowledge' of the Middle Ages were thought up then, with the aim of boasting the age's own achievements.
Now, you claim with the following:
" I did not say that. Please do not try to twist my words, it makes you look stupid.
I said that in the 16th century, it was popular to make up tales about the 'stupidity' of the middle ages. Things like the 'prima nocta', as still so fruitfully displayed in the Braveheart movie for instance, was thought up in the 16th century. And the tale that people in the middle ages did not know the world was spherical was also thought up in this time".
So how the trasition had taken place?
-------------
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
|
Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 23:52
|
The transition took place during an age of European civilization, the Renaissance, when a medieval Germanic culture rediscovered its ancient Latin and Greek predecessor and tried to emulate it again. People starting reading the Classics, wanted to start matching the architectural feats of the Roman empire, and founded universities in which the language of instruction was Latin, even if Latin was no longer a vernacular language. To top it off, the fundamental fracture of the one institution which dominated the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church, (this fracture is commonly referred to as the Reformation), a century later, just added to the feeling of disconnect from the old Medieval Germanic culture and made the Classical world as a possible model for the new world to come.
Naturally, such a society would want to distance itself as much as possible from its medieval roots that it had abandoned, so the first the intellectual elite and later the common people started to invent a whole mythology on the evils and absurdities of the said period. So you get the myths that they were ignorant and superstitious, that they had no idea of the world they lived in.. and so on and so forth. It is this rhetoric which lay unchallenged until the Romantic revival of the 19th century which still shapes the imagination of most people.
-------------
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
|
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:21
|
The world chess champion raised some fundamental questions:
Without zero, how the Romans had done their calculation for constructing buildings?
With Roman numbers I, II, III etc, how they would have done multiplication and division?
How the values of Sine, Cosine etc., would have been worked out?
How the spherical trigonometry etc., would have been thought about?
-------------
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
|
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:32
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
This is what you wrote:
ALFIQUFU: Indeed. I see no need to give 'evidence' for the obvious. The tale that people once thought the earth was flat was thought up in the 16th century, an age when 'middle-ages bashing' was popular. A lot of fables about the 'low culture and knowledge' of the Middle Ages were thought up then, with the aim of boasting the age's own achievements.
Now, you claim with the following:
" I did not say that. Please do not try to twist my words, it makes you look stupid.
I said that in the 16th century, it was popular to make up tales about the 'stupidity' of the middle ages. Things like the 'prima nocta', as still so fruitfully displayed in the Braveheart movie for instance, was thought up in the 16th century. And the tale that people in the middle ages did not know the world was spherical was also thought up in this time".
So how the trasition had taken place? |
Geez, do I really have to explain the difference between
“16th century people were thinking that the earth was flat” (your quote)
and
"The tale that people once thought the earth was flat was thought up in the 16th century" (my quote)
seems pretty obvious no?
-------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
|
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:39
|
O yes,
I have acknowledged your remarks also!
Anyway, note DECEBAL has responded differently.
-------------
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
|
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:48
|
No, Decebal has in his reply, explained the exact same thing as what I was saying, only more elaborately and far more clearly.
Edit - by the way, your signature is incorrect. History is not exactly what happened in the past, but that what has been written down in the past, adapted and changed by that what people thought to be true and what people wanted to be true.
Exactly what happened is the Past, no more, no less.
-------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
|
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:50
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
The world chess champion raised some fundamental questions:
Without zero, how the Romans had done their calculation for constructing buildings?
With Roman numbers I, II, III etc, how they would have done multiplication and division?
How the values of Sine, Cosine etc., would have been worked out?
How the spherical trigonometry etc., would have been thought about? |
Our posts have been going right over your head.
|
Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 13:23
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
The world chess champion raised some fundamental questions:
Without zero, how the Romans had done their calculation for constructing buildings?
With Roman numbers I, II, III etc, how they would have done multiplication and division?
How the values of Sine, Cosine etc., would have been worked out?
How the spherical trigonometry etc., would have been thought about?
|
Oh please, just because Gary Kasparov is a chess world champion, that does not make him an authority on history, or on ancient mathematics. He actually believes the theories of a Russian mathematician who believes that western history was completely invented by 16th century monks, and that these monks also built all these Roman, Greek and Egyptian ruins to give creedence to their theories... It's ludicrous...
Now on the subject of building without the use of 0 in mathematics. I think that modern people have a hard time thinking outside the scientific paradigm which is prevalent today. Have you ever read Thomas Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions"? He talks about paradigms: scientific climates of opinion, which among other things, make it very difficult to understand scientific and engineering theories and methods which were developed using a different paradigm. Now, 0 is a very useful concept which makes it much easier to perform calculations using a positional notation. But this doesn't mean that calculations in a different notation without using 0 are impossible. The Romans used an abacus for most calculations and also had algorithms for performing the basic arithmetic operations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_arithmetic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_arithmetic
As the dominant culture in Roman times was Greek, you should probably look up Greek mathematics as well. Read up on Euclid, Thales, Pythagoras and Archimedes. Then decide if such a civilization was indeed incapable of building the constructions which have passed down to us.
-------------
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
|
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 20:18
|
He has been quoted to appreciate the connection of mathematics with logic and vice versa and how a chess player has to think and apply in his moves. So when a person with such capabilities raise questions logically and mathematically, it is quite reasonable to respond.
That Romans could have worked out with abacus or the way in which the wikipedia explains is different from how eaxactly Romans did. We can think a long how Romans could have done with their numbers to get results so that they were applied for their day to day work.
Coming to the building, not only the mathematics involved with the geometrical pattern associated with natural symbols and their conversion into exhibited forms by hands. Here, practice perfected and the professional skill are differentiated. For the former, perhaps, no mathematics or logic is required, however, everything is ingrained in the minds of such genius, when the exhibit proves his skill.
-------------
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
|
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 22:12
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
He has been quoted to appreciate the connection of mathematics with logic and vice versa and how a chess player has to think and apply in his moves. So when a person with such capabilities raise questions logically and mathematically, it is quite reasonable to respond.
That Romans could have worked out with abacus or the way in which the wikipedia explains is different from how eaxactly Romans did. We can think a long how Romans could have done with their numbers to get results so that they were applied for their day to day work.
Coming to the building, not only the mathematics involved with the geometrical pattern associated with natural symbols and their conversion into exhibited forms by hands. Here, practice perfected and the professional skill are differentiated. For the former, perhaps, no mathematics or logic is required, however, everything is ingrained in the minds of such genius, when the exhibit proves his skill. |
Examples of Fomenko, your Russian chess champ's man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zbrHFwIMdM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zbrHFwIMdM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRQB1bGqzE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRQB1bGqzE
|
Posted By: K. V. Ramakrishna Rao
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 05:26
Well. can you give some evidences of globes prepared by the Romans or the Greeks?
-------------
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
|
|
Print Page | Close Window
Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com
|
|
