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Zagros 
Emperor 
Suspended Joined: 11-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8792 |
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 Topic: Azerbaijan Turkish LanguagePosted: 19-Oct-2006 at 14:43 |
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Well, I will let you know what my Tabrizi friend says when I hear from him. Another point: If Pahlavi banned Azari and the rest of it, howcome Koorosh Yaghmaee and Googoosh both sang Azari songs in the 70s?
Reyhan (Koorosh) and Ayerligh (Googoosh). Edited by Zagros - 19-Oct-2006 at 14:51 |
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Bulldog
Caliph 
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 16:20 |
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More examples of Iran-Torke Turki
Sami Yusuf - Anam (Mother)
Elses
Azeri-Song
Oh and let's use sources to back up wild claims, we can all say anything we like, oh Persian is 80% Arabic root I could say it but a Persian speaker would know I was talking nonsense so let's be a little more sensible before making unverifiable ridiculous claims. Edited by Bulldog - 19-Oct-2006 at 16:24 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Zagros
Emperor
Suspended Joined: 11-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8792 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 05:21 |
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My Question:
"Ali jan, man ye soali daram: Farghe Torki e Torkiye ba Torki e Azarbaijan e Iran kame ya ziad? Masalan: Ye Azarie mamooli be rahati Torki e Torkiye halish mishe ya na?"
"I have a question: what is the difference between Turkish Turkish and Iranian Azari Turkish, is it a lot or a little? Eg: Can an ordinary Azari easily comprehend Turkish Turkish or not?"
This is what my friend had to say:
"rastesh shoresh jan kelamat moshtarak hastesh vali noe talafoz fargh mikone baraye hamin ham agar ham man begam on nafahme!albate man turkiye onaro baladam chon onja zendegi kardam ... vali kolan baraye ye azari sakht nistesh ke turkiye onjaro yad begire.... "
"Really, there are a lot of words in common but the way of pronunciation of those words is quite different, for this reason there is not mutual intelligibility. I however, have lived in Turkey and I understand their Turkish... Overall it's not at all hard for an Azari to learn their Turkish."
Which is almost concurrent with what I have been told by my other Azari friends, and was what I was saying all along, that they are not intelligible because they are essentially different dialects and actually require a bit of study. I alluded to the common root before.
It is misleading to say that there is no difference.
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Kerimoglu
Consul 
Joined: 05-Oct-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 313 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 06:02 |
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Ok, Zagros, u touched to very beautiful point. Let me explain. Azeri Turks living in Iran have been living there since Turks came to Middle east. In Fact they were more close to Persian atnicity than other Turks did. And living directly under Iran authority, from 1817, Turks living in Iran had many parts changed. They adopted a lots of words as well as accent. That is the reason, that i see, is why u uys understand each other not bad. Now i am writing all the words that I know down, which I can understand from your sentence: Jan-Life, Body
Man-BEn????
Farghe-Ferq-Fark-Arabian word that means difference
Rahat-comfortable
kelemat-kelem-kelme-word???
Moshterak-Musterek-togeter, collaborated??
Albate, we say Elbette, surely!
yad-forign?? It must be word of foreign language, u know.
Anyway, i claim that, those are the only words that i could understand, except the names, of course.
U know, Albanian words in our language, well, there ism, but it will take a big time for me to find those words and compare if we do have it in other turkish languages, or not. if we dont, then surely they must be native caucasian only if they are not persian or arabian origin.
By the way, another example, UZUNDIRAZ means very tall man in Azeri turkish. Uzun means tall in turkish and Diraz means tall in Persian, so Tall-Tall man.
We have a great influance in Azerbaijan language from Arabians that other turks did, and we have it even much more than persian. But I simply cannot deni the influance of Persian language to mione. There is a big one, which I am not saying the words in a negative way or oppinion. I do not have any negative thoughts about Perisans either.
Turkey turks and Azeri turks (both living in Iran and Norther Azerbaijan) speak the same. Even there is no any big dialects. But Iran turks are more close to Persia both in language and culture. Edited by Kerimoglu - 20-Oct-2006 at 06:04 |
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History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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Kerimoglu
Consul
Joined: 05-Oct-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 313 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 06:10 |
 Man, in 70's Iran was one of the greates places in the world. Gogoosh and others were the best singers. There were all the signs of modernization, only in army in 70's there were more than 400 F 14's and 100 F 16's when Turkey had only Sabres yet.
Now Iran, oh man, I wanna cry  , in the hands opf couple mullahs doing nonsense there, why Iran should need a nuclear power and all of those ??? Anyway, I am sorry for going off topic. Those were my personal oppinions and they're not directed to any members of this forum. Please do not take those as a threat, but there is no need for comparison Iran in 70's and iran now. It is surely going backwords. And I am sorry for that. I believe that, people in authority in Iran now just do not want to lose their positions and that is the reason why it is almost a totalitarian regime there.Edited by Kerimoglu - 20-Oct-2006 at 06:11 |
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History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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bleda
Earl 
Suspended Joined: 07-May-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 283 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 06:30 |
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100 f16 400 f14 are you sure????
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Zagros
Emperor
Suspended Joined: 11-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8792 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 08:40 |
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Kerim jan - Thanks for your input and I agree with it.
Now for the words you mentioned:
Jan-Life, Body - correct, but in the context we used it it means "dear". Iranic word.
Man-BEn???? - means I (I have a question). Iranic root.
Farghe-Ferq-Fark-Arabian word that means difference - Yes, Arabic.
Rahat-comfortable - or easy - Iranic
kelemat-kelem-kelme-word??? words - Arabic.
Moshterak-Musterek-togeter, collaborated?? "The same" Arabic.
Albate, we say Elbette, surely! - Albate can be used like "however" or "but".
yad-forign?? It must be word of foreign language, u know. - No yad is used like "yad begiram" -to learn, it also refers to memory, "yad et miad?" "Do you remember?"
-- No F16s but F4 Phantoms, F5s and F14 (about 100, not 400). |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 11:34 |
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Zagros the Turki of Iran/Azerbaycan(North) and Turki of Turkey is not a different dialect, it is same dialect and mutually intellegeble.
I posted some clips, someone speaking Turkey Turkish without speaking to an Iran Turk in his life will easily be able to understand it.
A few different words and a few pronounciation differences does not make a dialect.
Is Manchester, Liverpudlian or Geordie(Newcastle) English therfore not English? well anybody stating such a claim is being absurd.
Eastern Turkey and Azerbaycan Turki is infact closer than London Enligsh is to Newcastle accent English.
BAKHTIYAR VAHABZADE
Yasha Yasha
Alihan Samedon Sibel-Can
Yar bashina don senin
Song
And Icherem
P.s "Rahat" is Arabic
Men/Ben I don't think its "Iranic"
Edited by Bulldog - 20-Oct-2006 at 11:40 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Zagros
Emperor
Suspended Joined: 11-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8792 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 12:21 |
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Man, means I - same in German and in all other IE languages in one form or another. I dont think there are any borrowed pronouns, in any language.
I don't understand Turki, in any dialect/accent/language so those meant nothing to me. I will trust the word of my friends and personal contacts if that's OK. I don't have any agenda in wanting to know; it has always been personal interest, but pan nationalists always said there was no difference here, and I believed them, rather naively. Sorry but my friends have no political affiliations, and I treat them as neutral.
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 12:48 |
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Everybody has pollitical affliations and bias' of some sorts especially when it concerns themselves.
Turki in Iran and Turki in Turkey are not different dialects, they are the same language with some regional variations and in the case of Eastern Turkey there isn't a large accent difference either.
Well other Turkiye Turks here can comment and tell us if they can understand the language in those clips or if its a different language and mutually un-intellegeble.
p.s The Bahtiyar interview, is by "Banu Avar" who is a journalist from Turkiye, she is interviewing the famous Azeri poet, does it look like she is struggling there is no subtitles either.
Edited by Bulldog - 20-Oct-2006 at 12:50 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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shinai
Shogun 
Joined: 13-Oct-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 219 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 17:42 |
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Bulldog, I agree with you that almost all words you are using in Turkish could be used in azeri but the problem is that the language is close to die in Iran. The process of the Turkification has been stopped after Pahlavi era and it started to move revers afer Islamic Republic comes around.
I agree that the Turkish TVs are more popular than Iranian TV in Iranian azerbaijan, I saw it myself, people can understand it because they watch it regularly, I remeber a joke about a begger in Tebrzi telling that
"Yardim edin, lutfen" instead of telling "bagisliyin"
 I am not happy of what going to the language that my grandparents used to speak, because when I watch the Turkish Tvs I remember my grand mother, she was a Bayat but my dad can not sepak like her.
my mother side are from kardag, which I donot know where is that , but she also does not know how to say "Yugurt",even she does not say"Gatuk", she says "Mast". Theere was Mountain close to us used to be Gaflanti, now it is ghaflan kuh. Azeries could be same as Turkish in 16th cetury but now it is like persian.
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 18:08 |
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Pahlavi era wasn't Turkifying anyone Shinai, the Azeri Turkish awakening is quite recent going back only a few decades especially after the establishment of the Republic of Azerbaycan in the North, the Karabagh war, the collapse of the soviet Union and removal of Iron curtain.
You hardly ever used to see Tork of Iran speaking Turki or talking about wanting to be educated in Turki etc, now there are many and the number keeps growing, Torke are now more active their exposed to alot more Turkish influence due to media, certain groups, globolisation which is bringing the world closer and understanding of different areas are becomming much easier and open.
Its up to the Tork of Iran to not let their language "die", Turkish is an important language which is growing in influence and speakers, I think knowing more than one language is great, if you know Turki, Farsi also Arabic or Kurdi than all the better, languages open up doors its a great benefit. From what I see alot of Tork of Iran carry on speaking Turki and now value it alot more, its a great benefit, you guys can go to Republic of Azerbaycan, Turkey, Turkish Cyprus, areas of the Caucaus, Turkic areas in the Balkans and Turkmenistan and communicate without problems, be accepted as a fellow brother and easily fit in. You can also go to Afganistan and Tajikistan and speak with Persian-Dari speakers there, I think Farsi is close to these languages.
What an advantage!
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Maziar
Chieftain 
Arteshbod Joined: 06-Nov-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 1155 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 23:31 |
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Nice discussion here around. About the term Torke-Khar i agree with Zagros, i have seen persian sources which are dated many years befor Pahlavis either.
Btw, Azeri people use this term theirselves!! The most jocks about Azeris are made by them. I remember as i was a child and my family was to visit my grandmother, any time we asked grandma "what's up?" she used to answer "eshaklar doghob, famil chokhalib"  |
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Alborz
Earl
Joined: 02-Nov-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 256 |
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 02:49 |
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Zagros, im not quite exactly sure, but I think "Azari" is pretty much Turkish, but richer in terms of vocabulary and even grammar than the turkish spoken in Turkey, since that has been degraded by unculturalism that engulfed the anatolians in early 20th century. anyway, the language is not Azari, azari was regional dialect of persian/pahlavi. Azari and Arrani languages were just dialects of pahlavi, and today the languages in both regions that are prominent are Turkish. anyway, I believe this "Bulldog" is politically or something motivated, I have read many of his posts. they smell fishy.
ZAGROS, regarding iran isnt a persian country. that statement doesnt make any sense since persian=iranian. Iran is a persian-speaking nation no question about that. Every body in Iran speaks persian. however, many iranians are bilingual like peoples of other nations. this was also the case back when Aran and shervan (now frm r. azerbaijan) were part of this nation.
just read what our lovely patriotic poet Mohammad Hossein Shahriar beautiful wrote:
 remember Zagros jaan, reading poetry by these men makes you understand a bit more Edited by Alborz - 21-Oct-2006 at 03:03 |
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"Who so shall worship Ahura Mazda, divine blessing will be upon him, both while living and when dead" Darius The Great
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 09:37 |
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Alborz your correct about "Azari" being a different language.
The Turki of Azeri in Iran/Azerbaycan is very rich and they have many poets and literary figures to represent this.
Alborz
ZAGROS, regarding iran isnt a persian country. that statement doesnt make any sense since persian=iranian. Iran is a persian-speaking nation no question about that. Every body in Iran speaks persian. however, many iranians are bilingual like peoples of other nations.
Can't all the groups be Iranian like Persians aswell. Being bi-lingual is a great advantage.
Shahriyar is a great poet I agree,
"Heydar Baba, Salam" proved that he could write Azeri with equal elegance and power.
The poem became so popular and so many Azerbaijanis identied so closely with it that many songs were written and many stanzas have been incorporated into proverbial expressions in everyday Azeri speech. "Heydar Baba" broke the cultural isolation and silence of Southern Azerbaijan. It can be said that it was responsible for reviving literary Azeri language in Iran. It quickly became known not only in Southern Azerbaijan but throughout the rest of the Turkic world and signaled a new chapter in the literary history in Southern Azerbaijan as the Azeri language at that time was not ofcially recognized nor publication ofcially allowed in Iran. Greetings, Haydar Baba Heydar Baba, when pheasants take flight, When the March wind strikes down the bowers, Heydar Baba, let your back bear the mark of the sun. Haydar Baba, may your brows be bright. Heydar Baba, my steps never crossed your pass. Haydar-Baba, when geese fly over at night, Kor-oghli's eyes recognize dark shadow, Mounts on his horse, Girat, and gallops away, Here I can not achieve my purpose so quickly! I can not sleep unless Eyvaz returns safely! 75- Haydar-Baba, give birth to brave sons, Break the necks of the wicked, Trap the wolves at the high way, Let the herd freely graze in the open, The sheep become fat! 76- Haydar-Baba, may you always be cheerful! Your mouth enjoy good fare! Your table be open to both friends and strangers, Tell the world that my poet son Shahryar! Has sorrow piled upon sorrow in all his days! Ey Iran Qesrini eliyle tiken,
Iran'dan hamise belalar eken, Bulaq gzlerini dumanlar ken, Perisan memleket, dertli memleket. stne atesler yagan topragim, Muhabbet ocagim, lfet ocagim, Ay menim hamiya bar verin bagim, Ah ekme, bulutlar yanar ahindan. Tarix az grmeyib qudurqanlari, Qanlini qan tutar, qandir onlari, Ey menim xalqimin qartal vuqari, Enme, z zirvenin ucaligindan. Ne qadar ki yasar cahanda gnes, Ne qadar ki sudan ekinir ates, Sarq adli zyn gvher qasi tek, Parlasin, Parlasin qoy, AZERBAYCAN. Read much more here
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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barbar
General 
retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 12:09 |
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I think it's better we clarify the difference of a language and a dialect. There are seven major dialects in Chinese, they are not mutually understandable at all, but still they are considered to be dialects rather than different languages. While Turkic languages are quite mutuably understandable , they are considered to be different languages. What is dialect then? If the two languages are mutually understandable, have similar grammatical structure, shouldn't they be considered as the same language with dialectal difference? No one can claim that Turkey Turkish and Azari Turkish have no difference, we know even Anatolian Turkish has many dialectical differences within itself. The same goes to any language due to the regional difference. Azari Turkish belongs to the Oghuz branch of Turkish languages together with Turkey Turkish. That means they are even in the same dialect, just with the regional difference. |
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Either make a history or become a history.
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Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod Joined: 06-Nov-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 1155 |
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 13:21 |
I can't agree with this, the differences between the two are very great. While Azeri people have a Pahlavi accent (this is very obvious how they speack persian or turkish, wich is very different to anatolian ) and they use old pahlavi words. I agree with you that azeri turkish is a turkish dialect, but i don't agree this dialect is similiar like the anatolian. |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 15:33 |
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Maziar do you speak "Turki"? well then how can you disagree with people who do speak it and therefore are in a better position to make such judgements.
There isn't a dialect, its an accent, if you knew Turkish you would realise that you can turn on Azerbaycan Tv, go watch an Azerbaycan film, go talk with Azeri Turk with no trouble.
The Azeri accent is no different to Erzerum, Igdir, Kars, Elazig accent of Anatolia.
The "Oghuz" Turkish is a branch, Azerbaycan and Turkey Turkish is a part of this.
The differences are this.
Accent
Regional words, certain lexical differences
As I said, these two forms of Turki are closer than a London Cockney and a Newcastle Geordie accent, London Cockney is not a dialect of English, its a regional accent with certain colloquial differences.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod Joined: 06-Nov-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 1155 |
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 17:45 |
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Yes i speak Turki, but for sure not as good as you. My father is a Kurd and my mother an Azeri, i speak the both kurdish and Azeri Turki , but not very well becouse at home we only speak Persian.
"The differences are this. Accent
Regional words, certain lexical differences"
yes, thats what i said too. |
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Tangriberdi
Earl
Joined: 03-Aug-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 267 |
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 21:17 |
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Azrbaycanin Turki dilind danishabilmiram, ama hm szlrini fhmylirm(anliram). Onlarin bir coxu hm mnin Turki dilimi fhmylil(anliler). Azerbaycanin Turki dilinde konushamiyorum, ama btn szlerini anliyorum (fehmediyorum). Onların oğu da benim Turki dilimi anliyorlar(fehmediyorlar) .
I cannot speak Azerbaijani Turkish. but I understand all. They also understand my Turkish language.
One thing:
If I don't have the knowlege of Turkish language in a superior level it is possible that I cannot understand some words in Azerbaijani Turkish as they cannot understand Anatolian Turkish if they replace Yoghurd /Qatiq with Persian Maast. That is the process. That is the reason why they cannot understand us. They forget their great-grandmothers' word and take Persian ones.
Azerbaijani Turkish singular pronoun mn is not a loan word from Persian.
It is a direct descendent of old Turkic Bn. It is a widespread change that B turns into M in Turkic languages.. Eg: Buz>Muz, Ice, Bin>Min Thousand
Infact Persian Mn may be a result of Turkic influence on Persian.
So, Many Iranologists know well that the word referring to the First Singular Pronoun in old Iranic Languages is Azya or Aiziya as inherited by Kurdish as Ez which is also seen some other Iranic languages except Persian and closely related ones. Ez also a cognate to Latin Ego Germanic Ek Slavic Az etc...
It is more probable that Persian Mn is a borrowing from Turkmen or Azeri Turkish or a form of IE me* which replaced Azya or Aiziya>Ez.
And That Azerbaijani Turkish have some Pahlavi words does not mean that Azerbaijani Turkish derived from Pahlavi. Today Persian lacks bdast, Tba, Vayug which are washing for prayer, Pan, and Bride respectively. But they exist in modern Anatolian Turkish. That does not mean Turkish derived from Persian.
Azerbaijani Turks borrowed these words from Pahlavi before it disappeared in the region that is it.
Denying the very Turkishness of Azerbaijani Turks , you Pan Iranist will never avoid to distort the facts. I belive this.
Edited by Tangriberdi - 23-Oct-2006 at 10:33 |
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