Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Who is the greatest Turkic leader? (REVISED LIST)
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Poll Question: Who is the greatest Turkic leader? (REVISED LIST)
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
5 [7.35%]
1 [1.47%]
14 [20.59%]
9 [13.24%]
3 [4.41%]
1 [1.47%]
2 [2.94%]
2 [2.94%]
3 [4.41%]
28 [41.18%]
You can not vote in this poll

Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who is the greatest Turkic leader? (REVISED LIST)
    Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 17:45
Here is the revised list.

I tried to include a leader from each major Turkic State.

I wish there was more than 10 options, there are still many more, AlpArslan, Alptekin, Baybars, Sah Ismail, Saltuk Bugra Khan, Razia Sultana, Alaeddin Keykubbad, Tonyukyuk, Kul Tegin, Bumin Khan, Orhan Ghazi, Ertegrul Gazi, Mete Han.........................

Or instead I could open another post and include another ten and you could vote between the top twenty?    

Edited by Bulldog - 13-Nov-2006 at 14:20
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 17:51
Talk about covering different time periods and geography. Lots to cover. Each in their own right has taken a state under their rule to greatness. I will obstain from voting since I could rationalize any one of them as a top choice for starting or improving on what they already had.

Some of them were military geniuses but were poor governors. Some were state builders. The rare few had a combination of military expertise, statecraft and leadership. Take a guess at who they were.
    
    

Edited by Seko - 26-Sep-2006 at 17:58
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 21:52

Why isn't Yavuz Sultan Selim on the list? He didn't even get an honorouble mention.
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 11:30
SorryEmbarrassed
 
There's so many great leaders that I couldn't include them all.
 
I tried to include a leader from each major state and area.
 
Maybe we could do another poll for who had most significance in terms of culture, influence etc....?
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 15:36
Well, all had their points - Seljuk was the pioneer of Turkish entry into Anatolia, Suleiman the magnificent coined the golden age of the Ottoman realm and Ataturk did the impossible in re-inventing Turkey and paving the way for what it is today - but I voted for Attila the Hun just because he was THE barbarian king that shook Rome, yeah!
Back to Top
Sirona View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 23-Sep-2006
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 62 		  Quote Sirona Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 16:12
I voted for Attila as well. Maybe it's a very Western oriented answer but the decline of the Roman Empire was a very crucial point in history. 
Back to Top
Giordano View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jun-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 62 		  Quote Giordano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 06:28
Suleyman the magnificent is nothing.His father Yavuz soultan Selim was great commander and during his short life time won great wars,when he died Suleyman found a great empire,great army and full treasure.He ruled in luxury for 46 years,don't attend wars ,did reforms as married his concubine!
He gave the maritime trade rights to France and this became big trouble for the empireship for centuries.During Suleyman the magnificent ,all succesful
events made the others.Sokullu,Barbarossa,Sinan,Turgut etc.
I think western world loved the Suleyman a lot and named as "Suleyman the magnificent."


Edited by Giordano - 28-Sep-2006 at 06:29
War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it.
Desiderius Erasmus
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 12:36
Suleyman the Magnificent really was one of those Great World Leaders, he recieved so much repect even from Europe that the Itallians called him "Grande Turko"Grand Turk which is were this phrase originates from.
 
He expanded the borders of the Ottoman Empire immensely, made the Ottoman navy
one of the most powerfull in the world. He was also a very just ruler, law and justice was very advanced and developed, everybody the right to excersise their rights in the courts across the land, the poor were protected, traders regulated, there were standardisation laws and so on, its really quite amazing.
 
Here are a few examples,
 
Suleiman was renowned as a just and fair ruler, choosing his subordinates according to merit rather than social status or popularity. The Austrian Ambassador, Ghiselain de Busbecq, wrote of him, "In making his appointments, the Sultan pays no regard to any pretensions on the score of wealth or rank, nor does he take into consideration recommendations or popularity; he considers each case on its own merits, and examines carefully into the character, ability and disposition of the man whose promotion is in question.".

In 1553 Suleiman declared a law to stop the persecution of Jews via Blood libels, decreeing that all accusations of the slaughter of Christian children by Jews be referred to the Imperial Divan where the courts would expose these lies. The preparation of the law included the input of Moses Hamon, a favorite doctor and dentist of the Sultan. Another symbol of the Muslim-Jewish tolerance was the building of a synagogue and mosque side by side in the Buyuk Corapci Han which was built by Suleiman

Some Christian slaves in the Ottoman Empire under Suleiman rose to positions of great prominence. Ibrahim Pasha became Grand Vizier for thirteen years.

Suleiman continued the policy of religious tolerance toward Jews initiated by Bayezid II (14811512), who had welcomed Jews expelled from Spain in 1492.

In a letter to Pope Paul IV (155559) in 1556, Suleiman asked for the immediate release of the Ancona Marranos, who faced persecution after falling under Papal authority; Suleiman declared them to be Ottoman citizens. The Pope had no alternative but to release them, thus demonstrating the influence of the Ottoman Empire. Suleiman also employed a Jewish personal physician, Rabbi Moshe Hamon.

In the city of Jerusalem, the rule of Suleiman and the following Ottoman Sultans brought an age of religious peace; Jews, Christians and Muslims enjoyed the freedom of religion that the Ottomans granted them and it was possible to find a synagogue, a church and a mosque in the same street. The city remained open to all three religions.

 

In adition to being just, tolerant and an enforcer of laws he was also a very cultured man and a great poet, his poetry is still loved today.

"The people think of wealth and power as the greatest fate,
But in this world a spell of health is the best state.
What men call sovereignty is a wordly strife and constant war;
Worship of God is the highest throne, the happiest of all estate's

In adittion he was also a lover and had one of the great romances with his wife "Hurrem Sultan".

He composed this poem for Hurrem:

"Throne of my lonely niche, my wealth, my love, my moonlight.
My most sincere friend, my confidant, my very existence, my Sultan
The most beautiful among the beautiful...
My springtime, my merry faced love, my daytime, my sweetheart, laughing leaf...
My plants, my sweet, my rose, the one only who does not distress me in this world...
My Istanbul, my Caraman, the earth of my Anatolia
My Badakhshan, my Baghdad and Khorasan
My woman of the beautiful hair, my love of the slanted brow, my love of eyes full of mischief...
I'll sing your praises always
I, lover of the tormented heart, Muhibbi of the eyes full of tears, I am happy."
 
 
 

In addition to all this he was responsible for a golden age in architecture and was responsible for hundreds of great works, to realise just what extent this reach one only has to look at the "Unesco World Heritage List", 

Bosnia- Mostar Bridge and region
 
Turkey- Istanbul Historic quarter (including, Suleymaniye Complex-Mosque-CaravanSaray-Imarathane/House to feed the poor-Mekteps-Medresses-Markets, Fountains)Topkapi Palace extenstions and many other complexes.
 
Safranbolu area, many buildings dating from Suleyman the Magnificents era
 
Israel - Jerusalem, The Historic Walls and area
 
Syria- Aleppo historic area, many buildings date to Suleyman era.
 
Egypt- Cairo historic area, buildings dating to Suleyman era
 
A lion in war, most civillised and cultured in peace, patron of the arts and contributer to the arts and architecture of a huge geographical area, really he was a fantastic leader. That half a century must have been one of the best era's to live in.
 
 
I am Sultan Suleyman Han, son of Sultan Selim Han, son of Sultan Bayezid Han.
I am Suleyman. To the east I am the Lawgiver. To the west I am the Magnificent.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 12:56
Well I think I am somewhat agree with my greek friend. Even He is not a bad leader, He is absolutely for fram becoming best leader of Ottomans.
 
Yavuz, Fatih, Murat 1, Murat  2, Murat 4, Abdulhamit 2. All of these patisahs are better than Kanuni.
 
Also Ataturk are not much effective like others. He is absolutely effected and protected Turkey, but not effected world that much.
 
I think I will choose timurlenk(Even I dont like him) within these list.
 
 
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 13:16
Common, ok Yavuz, Murat and Abdulhamit maybe can be compared but Suleyman the Magnificent was not only a great leader, he left huge influence and is best remembered.
 
His system of tolerance, justice and multiculturism are the pillars of what is considered "civillisation" in the West today.
 
Most people respect Suleyman the Magnificent regardless of ethnicity, you don't just have to be a Turk to love this great leader, he stands for benevolent rule, equality, human rights, tolerance and justice these are virtues admired by all humans regardless of nation.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 13:18
Could we give an explanation before giving a vote please, it will be more informative, I'd like to know why you voted for whoever you did and I'm sure others would aswell.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 13:59
Bulldog, it would be hard to pick anyone other than Suleyman after reading your glorifying and lengthy post on him.

As Suleyman took the title of sultan his enemies were in a state of relief. His father had been a stern threat to the east and the west was hesistant to confront him. Suleyman was a true warrior and stateman. After his invasion and subjugation of Belgrade he took on the Knights of St. John at Rhodes. This was no small feat. Mehmet II couldn't do it. The Sultan showed his magnificence at this battle by allowing the knights to have unhindered transport out of Rhodes and dismissing military conscription for the young male inhabitants.

For the Ottoman populous he carried another appellation, that of Kanuni - the Law Giver. His liberal laws were ahead of his time.

Would he be my best out of this poll? I guess I'll wait for another day before I place my vote.
    
    

Edited by Seko - 28-Sep-2006 at 14:00
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 15:41
Common, ok Yavuz, Murat and Abdulhamit maybe can be compared but Suleyman the Magnificent was not only a great leader, he left huge influence and is best remembered.
 
Militarily, Kanuni was not better than Fatih
 
Both are great politician, but again Fatih was better.
 
Both invested culture much, but I think Fatih was more intelligent. (He have some ideas like building new rome ext.)
 
Fatih laws are as much famous as Kanuni one.
 
Also Fatih effect over all world was much more than Kanuni.
 
And most important point, Greeks hate Fatih not Kanuni.Big smile
 
Kanuni was luckiest patisah, not best.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 16:16
Seko I'm going to try and go through the list to explain why I included each one, I'm quite a fan of Suleyman the Magnificent/Kanuni aswellTongue
 
Also I have replaced Seljuk Bey with AlpArslan, so its one Seljuk for another. Altought Seljuk Bey founded the Empire, was a great warrior and lived till over 100, there is not as much information about him, the pollitical system of the state etc AlpArslan is more well known, Malizgerit had huge influence, he led the way for Malik Sah and the "Seljuks of the Rum", who had an amazing golden age, building hundreds of Hans/CaravanSaray;s, Hospitals, Schools, Baths, Universities, Mosques, Palaces, Millitary buildings all across Anatolia. Were responsible for promoting culture and the arts, Yunus Emre, Mevlana, Nasreddin Hodja all were from this period. Also it led the way to the Ottomans. AlpArslan's influence is too prolific for him not to be included.
 
 
 
 
Malizgerit was a great triumph which had a HUGE impact as explained above, this famous conversation after the battle between Byzantine-Seljuks shows the nobility of AlpArslan.
 
Alp Arslan: "What would you do if I was brought before you as a prisoner?"
Romanus: "Perhaps I'd kill you, or exhibit you in the streets of Constantinople."
Alp Arslan: "My punishment is far heavier. I forgive you, and set you free."
 

 
 
 
Since the Turkmen calendar reform of 2002 the month of August is called in Arp Arslan's name.
 
 
Also in the "Ruhname" of Turkmenistan

Try to be the equal of the learned Pyragy and Gorkut,

Try to be the equal of the valiant Alp Arslan, agry beg and Togrul,

For Oguz Han people lagging behind does not suit

It is the Trkmen themselves who can make this nation grand.

Mankind is not always full of virtue or conscious of virtue; arrogance may triumph sometimes. Why does arrogance lead to calamity?

In this world, if people establish the balance between their heart and the world, their deeds progress properly, in the right course. Though man lives on Earth, he is always watched over by Allah, the Almighty. Allah did not send man and then leave him all alone in this world. Every one has a friend or companion.

One who follows and abides by the injunctions of religion and consults friends about his or her affairs always reaches his destination. But if one says, I am the man. I succeed - no need for help, one fails. My Lord sent me to the earth and He backs me up is not the right approach either!

 
Here is a great site to discover the cultural genius and civillisation of the Seljuks of Anatolia, their extensive building projects across Anatolia are amazing. "Divrigi"Hospital and Mosque are on the Unesco World Heritage List, also there great buildings in Isfahan-Iran, Konya, Alanya, Sivas, Erzerum are most impressive.
 
 
Mortaza
Militarily, Kanuni was not better than Fatih
 
Both are great politician, but again Fatih was better.
 
Whats the reason you think this?
 
Both invested culture much, but I think Fatih was more intelligent. (He have some ideas like building new rome ext.)
 
But Suleyman  was more successfull wouldn;t you agree?
 
Fatih laws are as much famous as Kanuni one.
 
Fatih's laws were great I agree, the Yasa and Shariah law was the most advanced today, even if applied today it would be accepted as a just system.
 
Also Fatih effect over all world was much more than Kanuni.
 
Both are immensely well known, I don't think its possible to simply say Fatih II is better known, Suleyman the Magnificent is known everywhere and even taught in most places.
 
And most important point, Greeks hate Fatih not Kanuni.Big smile
 
LOL Well that's fine if you've got a problem with Greeks but most Greeks are very nice people like Turks aswell so adding points for annoying others isn't very fair.
 
Its very rare for leaders to be admired and respected internationally, Suleyman is one of these. Fatih II by the way was also very tolerant, civillised and a believer in law and justice but taking Constantinople made him an enemy of Greeks and alot of Christians.
 
Kanuni was luckiest patisah, not best.
 
I think it was more than just luckTongue


Edited by Bulldog - 28-Sep-2006 at 16:39
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Adalwolf View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 08-Sep-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1230 		  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 16:21
Suleyman the Magnificent. Skilled military commander, and effective ruler. A winning combo!
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 16:26
Whats the reason you think this?
 
 aim of Fatih was a new rome, he was destroying older romestates one by one.(Istanbul, Athen, Trabzon)
 
aim of kanuni? he followed a lot gainless wars.
 
But Suleyman  was more successfull wouldn;t you agree?
 
I agree, but Suleyman have more money, thanks too Selim. I accept Murat 2 was also a good patisah and give Fatih a full treasure, but not as full as Suleyman have
 
Both are immensely well known, I don't think its possible to simply say Fatih II is better known, Suleyman the Magnificent is known everywhere and even taught in most places.
 
I agree again, but I am not talking about fame but effect. Taking Istanbul effected world much more than taking malta.
 
I think it was more than just luckTongue
 
but even under rule of Selim 3, Ottomans were as much powerful as Kanuni times. So even luck is not only reason, It helped much to Kanuni.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Mortaza - 28-Sep-2006 at 16:28
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 09:54
Mortaza you have made strong points for the inclusion of Fatih Mehmed II the Conqueror,
I agree he was one of the greatest leaders, who should I replace with him on the list in your opinion?
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 09:28

Ataturk is one of the greatest turkic leaders of all time in my opinion, Obviously.

Why?, His intelligence. :)
Back to Top
Afsar Beghi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jun-2006
Location: Azerbaijan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 341 		  Quote Afsar Beghi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 10:51
I think you cant compare these people with each other , cause they led the turkic people in different circumstances, so its hard to compare their qualitys.
But at the end I agree with ataturk being the greatest, for his intellegence like said above and because he saved our nation and identity.
Dadaloğlum bir gun kavga kurulur,
Oter tufek davlumbazlar vurulur,
Nice ko yiğitler yere serilir,
Olen lr kalan sağlar bizimdir!
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 15:47
That's not a proper explanation, the other leaders were just as intellegent and visionary.
 
If you choose AtaTurk please explain why in detail and bring convincing arguments.
 
Just off the top of my head I can list some of AtaTurk's achievments.
 
Great warrior, fought in Seven Wars I think before the Independance War, was a comander in the epic battle of Gallipoli and Sakarya, was one of the very few people to recieve the highest millitary honour status.
 
Revolutionary leader, teared the humilliating treaty of Sevres up, united a nation and didn't bow to Imperialist Super Powers, became inspirational to other nations being occupied or at war with the same powers. Central Asian revolutionaries, North African revolutionaries, South Asian also admired what he did, Jina'h of Pakistan even called himself "BozKurt" for a while.
 
Intellegent and visionary leader, most of the population of Turkey was uneducated and technologically backwards, he helped modernise Turkey, set up a state educational system, gave woman the vote, contrary to popular
belief saw the problem wasn't religion but the nation not knowing their religion and
the few who did using and corrupting it. So he translated the Holy Kur'an , Sunnah and
Religous material into Turkish and handed it out to the people for free.
 
Now, also he saw Central Asia as being the homeland of Turks and urged Turkey
to set up strong links for the future. He supported "Isa Alptekin" who
founded the short lived Eastern Turkistan-Xinjiang China. Supported the 
"Basmachi" movement in Central Asia, the Azerbaycan revolutionaries and sent
agents to all Turkic areas.
 
However, can he be considered greatest "Turkic" leader? that's another question,
yes he supported the short lived Eastern Turkistan and fought for Azerbaycan and
Turks of the Caucaus and Balkans. 
 
But he won't recieve the same respect as he gets in Turkey and nearby Turkic areas
as in Central Asia. This shouldn't be taken as an insult its logical for this
to be the case. 
 
 
Oh and p.s Who should I replace "Fatih II" with in the list???
 
 
 
 
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.062 seconds.