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Omar al Hashim
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Topic: Pope's gaffe? Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 00:55 |
Look at the situation of the Palestinean people, for instance. If
their leader have been a little bit more flexible, by now they could
have already a really independent and peaceful state. Arafat lost the
change of peace when it was at his hands. |
The palestine conflict is one where negotitation cannot lift the palestinians out of oppression barring somesort of miracle. To say that Arafat had an oppurtunity to end the war is completely incorrect. If the palestinian state is going to be under a strangled hold from the Israeli military and settlements, nothing would change. The only real possibilty is for Israel to become a multi-ethnic state. Although this is against Zionest agendas.
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Mortaza
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 14:17 |
We have a word at Turkish.
"lm gsterip sıtmaya razı etmek"
It means, Someone say you that you will die, and because of this you will accept illness.(I am sure other turks who have better english can translate this better.)
Negotiations are generally like this. If you dont want to die, You should accept illness.
Now If Palestinean leader have been a little bit more flexible, They would accept illness.
And you speak about freedom. Tell me, are you really free of doing and saying what is correct in your country?
cant understand point?
Edited by Mortaza - 17-Oct-2006 at 14:18
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:34 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
People should realize violence is just barbarism and it does not have any justification at all. Not even the fight for justice. Ghandi didn't have to send anyone to kill or to be kill to win India's independence. Why it is necesary to kill innocents when we can deal with our enemies in a better way, by negociations?
negotiation is not everytime acceptable situation. How can you negotiate over your freedom. will you bartain less freedom? |
Yes, you can! If you are strong enough you don't need to resort to violence to win!
You have been tough to believe the only way to resove problems is to shot people. Well, look at the random killings in the U.S., in schools, business, for example, and find out the culture of the violence only produces more death.
Look at the situation of the Palestinean people, for instance. If their leader have been a little bit more flexible, by now they could have already a really independent and peaceful state. Arafat lost the change of peace when it was at his hands.
And you speak about freedom. Tell me, are you really free of doing and saying what is correct in your country?
Pinguin
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malizai_
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 05:23 |
Ghandi, DID NOT gain independence for India. There was whole host of factors discussed elsewhere in AE.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 05:21 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Ghandi didn't have to send anyone to kill or to be kill to win India's independence. |
He caused the death of millions!
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Mortaza
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 04:43 |
People should realize violence is just barbarism and it does not have any justification at all. Not even the fight for justice. Ghandi didn't have to send anyone to kill or to be kill to win India's independence. Why it is necesary to kill innocents when we can deal with our enemies in a better way, by negociations?
negotiation is not everytime acceptable situation. How can you negotiate over your freedom. will you bartain less freedom?
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malizai_
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 16:14 |
Perikles
"Right now their religion makes them so fanatics"
Are u oblivious to everything other than religion that makes them so fanatical "Right now".
I will clarify further what Mortaza has tried to convey on my part fully.
I DONT think the life of a Russian is any less important than a Chechen's. Those in Beslan were Ossetians and not Russians, they were providing bases for the aerial bombing of Chechnia among other things. Some Chechens lost their marbles after they lost the 30th or 50th member of their family, they couldnt care less wht happened to themselves or the devils that helped the Russians do this to them. Is it justified NO, can i Understand Y what happened, happened, YES. + There is a lot of suspicion surrounding the military operation in Beslan.
Chechen freedom was cursed by OIL since day one.
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 10:48 |
Imperialism is not an excuse for Terrorism. But the reverse is not an excuse either.
In short nothing justify to kill civilians. Not because the "national security", those "magnific ideals", or that "revelation from God".
People should realize violence is just barbarism and it does not have any justification at all. Not even the fight for justice. Ghandi didn't have to send anyone to kill or to be kill to win India's independence. Why it is necesary to kill innocents when we can deal with our enemies in a better way, by negociations?
Pinguin
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Mortaza
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 09:20 |
I think he is trying to say, If a chechen kill russian, It is bad, but at least It has some reason.(Like most probably this chechen met a lot force.)
If a rus kill chechen, It is bad, and It has not any reason.
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perikles
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 09:10 |
Malizei all the terror acts are the same. It must be convicted. There is no difference if muslins do that or state or army. The act of terror is always act of terror. I could not see where do you dissagee. All that i wrote are facts. Unless you have different opinion of violence of muslins. Rught now their religion makes them so fanatic. Remember that they told the poor muslins that it is honnor to explode and kill christians.
Anyway what i am saying is that christians and muslins are guilty as well.
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malizai_
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 07:32 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Mortaza
Well, when violence spread generalizations start. Let's hope things calm down so toleracy has a chance. Otherwise you are going to see things change fast from a tolerant attitude to the extremes.
Violence will not calm down.
By the way, Spanish or russian civilians are not more innocent than iraqian or chechenian civilians.
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I can agree on that. People should realize how many civilians have died in Chechenia and the Middle East because of military interventions of foreign powers.
We are not talking of innocent states on here, but of civilians killed at random.
Pinguin
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There is no justification for killing civilians, Period. Although i accept the trauma of nations who suffer high level of violence consistently. Its effects are documented in studies concerning countries affected by the vietnam war. Although i do not have raedy source at hand.
I consider the tragic and horrible Beslan incident to be one such case.
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malizai_
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 07:27 |
Perikles
That is a post ignorant in its content and hyperopic in its view. If u use the same standard for quantifying the violence as u have set out(WRONGLY). Then christians are still winning this race hands down. They are way way ahead, to put it mildly. There is no difference between state,active,passive,hybernating,private, public terrorism. Y shouldnt YOU shoulder the guilt of a million dead Iraqis since the beginning of the hostilities.
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perikles
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 06:32 |
Relegious fanatism and religious terror are very bad things.
Relegioun push people that have low educational standard to act violent. Christians done that in middle ages and now muslins done that. I can't understood why are you not accept that. Nowadays the most fanatics are the muslins. They are attacking innocent civilians.
USA army or Israel army are not better than the terrorists of Al kainta etc. They killing innocent people. You see that human life has lost its significance. In order for political reasons they don't care, muslins or christians, how they will die.
See what is happening in Iraq, Lebanon, Madrid, London, NY etc.
And pope he just read what an emperor of the BYzantium said. When Korani saying that kill those who are not believe what christians should do?
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 19:09 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
Well, when violence spread generalizations start. Let's hope things calm down so toleracy has a chance. Otherwise you are going to see things change fast from a tolerant attitude to the extremes.
Violence will not calm down.
By the way, Spanish or russian civilians are not more innocent than iraqian or chechenian civilians.
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I can agree on that. People should realize how many civilians have died in Chechenia and the Middle East because of military interventions of foreign powers.
We are not talking of innocent states on here, but of civilians killed at random.
Pinguin
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Komnenos
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 16:28 |
Originally posted by red clay
Just one of many, unfortunately, and even more unfortunate, not only are his attitudes being tolerated, but in some instances defended.
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Please guys, if you have serious problems with another members' post, send a note of complaint to a member of staff ( preferably not to me) with quotes and links, but do not post general accusations.
Thanks.
Edited by Komnenos - 15-Oct-2006 at 16:28
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Mortaza
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 16:18 |
Well, when violence spread generalizations start. Let's hope things calm down so toleracy has a chance. Otherwise you are going to see things change fast from a tolerant attitude to the extremes.
Violence will not calm down.
By the way, Spanish or russian civilians are not more innocent than iraqian or chechenian civilians.
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red clay
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 15:03 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
Originally posted by pinguin
Muslims are violent people.
That's the message they transmit, anyways.
I am particularly shocked about Madrid's attacks because most people that died were civilians that opposed the intervention on Iraq. And I was also shocked by the attacks on Russian civilians, particularly that school full of children.
Is any way Muslims could become civilized at last? How come we must respect a people, like Muslims, that keep killing civilians at random around the world? |
talk about bigoty, first hand example right there^
thats a shameful post pinguin |
Just one of many, unfortunately, and even more unfortunate, not only are his attitudes being tolerated, but in some instances defended.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 13:46 |
Well, when violence spread generalizations start. Let's hope things calm down so toleracy has a chance. Otherwise you are going to see things change fast from a tolerant attitude to the extremes.
I sincerely hope I am wrong, and you are right.
Pinguin
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malizai_
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 13:38 |
Pinguin
believe it or not u have a lot in common with the terrorists, and that is generalization. All Christians are evil vs al Muslims are evil. Not a healthy state of mind. A perfect recruit.
Anyhow the violence is political and not religious.
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 09:25 |
Well, I have the impression that religion encourages violence against civilians, and I think I have the right to express that idea.
Madrid bombing
Russia school
I was shocked at what happens in those events in Madrid and particularly in Russia, and I think nobody has the right to resort to terrorism.
If a religion is behind terrorism, well, I'll blame that religion, then. I feel it is hypocresy of westerners to shut up just because they are afraid of commiting "bigotry". I preffer the couragious attitude of Oriana Fallaci about Muslims.
You are posting from Australia, and you know about it because many of your countrymen well killed in the Bali bombings.
Pinguin
Edited by pinguin - 15-Oct-2006 at 09:26
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