Pope's gaffe?
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Topic: Pope's gaffe?
Posted By: Seko
Subject: Pope's gaffe?
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 13:02
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I suppose the Pope's latest speech in Bavaria deserves to be discussed. Let's keep it decent.
PARIS (AFP) - Pope Benedict XVI was facing sharp reactions to a lecture in which he linked Islam with violence, with Muslim leaders in several countries demanding he apologise. "We hope that the Church will very quickly... clarify its position so that it does not confuse Islam, which is a revealed religion, with Islamism, which is not a religion but a political ideology," the head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM), Dalil Boubakeur, told AFP Thursday. Benedict provoked the outcry with comments on Tuesday in a theological lecture to staff and students at the University of Regensburg, in the most political part of a largely personal visit to his native Bavaria in southern Germany. Couching his criticism in a historical reference to a 14th century Byzantine emperor, the pope implicitly denounced connections between Islam and violence, particularly with regard to jihad, or "holy war". "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached,'" Benedict said, quoting the Byzantine source on the Prophet Mohammed, founder of the Muslim faith. The comments provoked an outcry among Muslims in several countries... Looks like the Pope should join AE for a lesson on proper protocol and the art of identifying misnomers versus bigotry. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060914/wl_afp/vaticanpopeislam_060914160443 - http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060914/wl_afp/vaticanpopeislam_060914160443 |
Replies:
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 15:23
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Is he related to Prince Phillip?
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Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 18:11
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THe Pope is too good for anything over here. Seriously he is too good for almost anything in the world ------------- |
Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 21:00
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I knew he was kind of old fashioned, but who knew he would try to get the Crusades started again? ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 00:42
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He served in the army. I think he must be the first pope for 1500 years to have seen action.
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Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 00:44
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You’d think these Muslims would be more worried about those using Islam for perverted things….such as cutting peoples heads off and blowing them selves up in restaurants and supermarkets. I wonder why people are so afraid of words… The Muslim world needs to grow up. They are acting like children over words that a Pope was merely quoting. Im sorry to say it, but it seems the Muslim world as a majority demands unconditional respect. Respect is something the Muslim world thrives off of. In other words, the Muslim world actually cares what some Church leader says about their religion (in this case did he actually say something?) I also like how Muslims are quick to point out the crusades…never mind that 300 years before the Crusades Muslims invaded Spain, France, Italy, the Byzantium Empire ect and that never received any condemnation from the the west. Why? Because we for the most part recognize it is history and it is not worth opening old wounds. This is the 21st century. I think the Muslim world needs update their calendars by 1000 years. The Crusades are over. The Muslims won. Why is this such a big deal? Without the crusades…who would Saladin be? |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 10:10
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Loknar, why does the western world broadcast al qaeda tapes that calls for its destruction 'like doom is around the corner and we need to fight this terror'? (though honestly they dont get taken as seroiusly like they use to) ... sorry difference is al qaeda represent a tincy-wincy % of the muslim world and the patriach in rome the largest and most powerful (schismastic) church. BTW is there any context on that quote? context is the key before i judge ------------- 
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 10:18
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I agree, context is necessary for this quote. Still, the Vatican now claims that the quote was not intended to insult muslims. Perhaps it is me, but I reallt really cannot think of any context in which this quote could possibly not be insulting.
The man literally said: Mohammed never brought the world any good, only death and destruction. That is just insulting!
That being said, I do think some muslims tend to overreact. I saw images on the telly of groeps of angry shouting people burning popelike scarecrows. They should not do that, it makes the whole muslim world look bad. If someone would say this about jesus, you would not get riots in the street, I bet. ------------- 
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 11:24
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I think oecumenism must have limits. If the CEO of Coca Cola was saying Pespi taste like sh*te, use child workers and has only brought to the world obesity and rotten teeth, nobody would think there is any problem. Why the hell when the pope is saying "we're better and the other one is worse" every body screams? Besides one must realize that if somebody must feel threaten here it is the Pope himself. What is going on with catholicism nowadays? Protestant, atheist and muslim are progressing nobody wants to be a priest any longer they are all dying out. We must get used to a Pope fighting back for his life. Incidently I'm quite close to agree with him yet I'd argue Jesus didn't do much better. I mean both have a pretty bad record even if personally they must have been good fellows. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 11:54
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IF a CEO of Coca Cola said those things and publicly announced a connection to obesity and child labor then I would think that CEO is detrimental to his company and would need to be released from his position. Surely we know that Coke has enough sugar to rot teeth and cause weight gain, but we don't hear their leader broadcasting it to the world. Imagine the public concern this would bring.
Muslims could use a better public image no doubt, and are mostly responsible themselves. It doesn't help when the leader of a large organized religion makes antagonizing statements in a politically charged and polarized world though. ------------- |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 11:58
paraphrasing or quoting another so to show what bad logic or thought sounds like would be context that is not offensive. I'm a little bit skeptical, beuase of the way the cartoon thing was spread, and that if it is true that would be MASSIVE. lets not jump at shadows, but i'm in no way defending that preist. -------------
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Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 13:32
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Ofcourse people in the Muslim world seem to be overacting.
I think this is precisely, because they place a high value on the Pope for the fact that he is the head of Vatican. So these Muslims, who overact, think that his view will effect the whole Christian World.. This is where fellow Muslims fail.. The Vatican itself is not taken very seriously by the most of fellow Christians.
Personally I do not take serious someone when he speaks on a subject ignorantly..here,in this case, Benedict also seems to be ignorant on the philosophy of Muhammad. If he wasnt, he would quote Muhammad himself not an emperor who lived 700 years later than him. ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 13:55
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I lost the original post so this one is a bit more decent Seko. I find myself asking again and again what was the purpose of his speech. It is no good to say he was quoting, because he is a coward who does not have the courage to say himself what he feels. We have all quoted and we all know what it means to quote. It would be another thing if he said what he said and quoted in support of his viewpoint.
Loknar
If some cleric issued a fatwa for your head u would be scared of his words too. So IF i called u an a****** then u wouldn't be offended, its only words, right!. Something tells me u wont be as grown up as u want others to be.
The pope is either ignorant of history, other people's sentiments, stupid, or all the these things. I personally think he is neither of these things and knew fully what he was doing. Maybe he thinks that the catholic church is lagging behind the evangelical ones. I think the Imam of the Kaaba(is there such a thing?) should come up with a couple of comments of his own and then we can all live happily everafter. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 14:20
| a conflict will feed both islam and christianity. So maybe his aim was some food for christianity. |
Posted By: Bashibozuk
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 15:04
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What I don't understand is that while Vatican decides to "overuse" its "freedom of speech" during wrong times on sensitive issues against over sensitive people, you can see no true Muslim, Hindu, or Confician authorities which is interested in stating any provocative words against any other religion.
The West (Catholic world) should become aware of how religious figures may still (in 21st century as Loknar enlightened us) cause huge conflicts and they'll continue this until the day they're all out of service. So maybe we aren't the best example for many westerners, but West still can't get rid of any religious authorities (with political influence and authority) like we abolished them in our country 72 years ago. They still have much way to go in the procedure of secularization. ------------- Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar, Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar. Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar, Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben. |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 15:08
| Well Infact bin laden is not leader of islam, but pope is. |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 16:53
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As Greek this Pope make some quotes that historical the previous Saint Fathers was very difficult to said. Like these two
Thus, despite the bitter conflict with those Hellenistic rulers who sought to accommodate it forcibly to the customs and idolatrous cult of the GREEKS, biblical faith, in the Hellenistic period, encountered the best of Greek thought at a deep level, resulting in a mutual enrichment evident especially in the later wisdom literature. Today we know that the GREEK translation of the Old Testament produced at Alexandria - the Septuagint - is more than a simple (and in that sense really less than satisfactory) translation of the Hebrew text:
it is an independent textual witness and a distinct and important step in the history of revelation, one which brought about this encounter in a way that was decisive for the birth and spread of Christianity. A profound encounter of faith and reason is taking place here, an encounter between genuine enlightenment and religion. From the very heart of Christian faith and, at the same time, the heart of GREEK thought now joined to faith, Manuel II was able to say: Not to act "with logos" is contrary to God's nature =========================================================
The encounter between the Biblical message and GREEK thought did not happen by chance. The vision of Saint Paul, who saw the roads to Asia barred and in a dream saw a Macedonian man plead with him:
"Come over to Macedonia and help us!" (cf. Acts 16:6-10) - this vision can be interpreted as a "distillation" of the intrinsic necessity of a rapprochement between Biblical faith and GREEK inquiry. ================================================================
In my opinion we must be more carefully as about the reactions against in this Pope.He speaks and mention some historical truths that I know is very hard to accept them.When a Catholic Pope speak for Christianism and Greek philosophy when the Greek Orthodoxe Church is very severe in this issue then we must see the forest and not the tree.The same goes to the Muslim-Christian relationships.
Below you can the all speech
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 17:41
More like 500 IIRC, at the very least. Pope's leading their own armies has not been all that unusual. I wonder how Benedict's PR will handle this one. ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 17:45
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Glad to have his full script.
Now onto a few issues. The Pope seems to stress the importance of faith, inquiry and Godliness. He presents a transforming epic of certain aspects of Greek religious history. The virtues of faith and reason/enlightenment. He also conveniently mentions a letter by a 14'th century Byzantine Emporer, who by the way had been losing territories to those infidel muslims. The letter vilifies Islam and one of it's prophets. Quite the opposite feel good story he presented about Christianity. Now, I ask, is this sensible and fair? ------------- |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 19:00
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Let me narrate u a fable: There was once a hunter out on an expedition on his horse closely followed by his donkey for carrying provisions and the quarry. He kills a few lions skins them and loads the skins onto his donkey, he travels a little further when all of a sudden he falls prey to a lion's ferocious leaping attack and succumbs. The horse flees with fright and the donkey buckles in a separate direction. hopelessly lost he wanders through the forest till he finds that all animals flee before him with fright. He later realizes that this is due to the appearance of the lion he has taken thanks to the skins. After years serving as the beast of burden he basks in this new found glory strutting where ever he goes feeling as the king of the Jungle would. A little further he come across a pride of lions, considering himself now as one of them he opts to go and say hello. His hello gets the kind of reception that a lion gives to a donkey, and alas the donkey is no more.
Moral of the story is that we know a donkey when we hear one.
The pope is very subtle in his underhanded way in which he equates the islamic religion sanctioning holywar as the tool for conversion to Islam, period. I dont have a problem with the view he holds. But it is the way he has shrouded his views as part of historical interpretation. ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 20:21
Perhaps there is no need for PR to be involved. Perhaps the Pope meant to say what he said. He is not entirely wrong.
Many Moslems seem to think they are special and entitled to an exalted place. They also seem to think that their "prophet" is immune from criticism. They are wrong on both counts.
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 21:22
You'll probably find that the TV cameras paid some youths so they could get some pictures. Thats what usually happens, or they re-use old film.
Thats true. The net affect of this is that a lot of catholics are going to be walking down to mosques to apologise for their clergy. Thats what happened the when Cardinal Pell did the same. The only christians who would be influenced by this are those who already believed it (and maybe the "Christians" - who really aren't christians at all in my opinion)
No, this not about differences of opinion the difference is spreading a lie for the purposes of bigotry. If I said George Washinton was a murderous criminal that wreaked havoc across the American coloneys enforcing his rebellious ideas by the sword. Many Americans would get offened and rightly so, however if I said that since thats a lie that I'm attempting to pass off as fact. If I said that George Washinton was a seperatist against our glorious empire, then thats a point of view. Nothings wrong with points of view, so long as they are factual and are not intended to cause strife. ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 01:31
Got your point. But did the pope say anything wrong ? Is'nt the truth same ? ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 05:19
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Pope had spoken in favour of dialogue between religions, which is something that also support and consider urgent and necessary. Benedict emphasised was a decisive and uncompromising renunciation of all forms of violence in the name of religion. In my opinion Pope just explored the historical and philosophical differences between Muslim and Christian religions and of course the relationship between violence and faith.
Byzantine Emperir words were as Pope said: Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.
Pope said twice the word "I quote" in order to stress the words were not his and added that violence was incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. As I said in my previous post, his style is certainly very different from Paul but when he speaks said hard historical truths.And we must not forget that this Pope in the previous position in the Vatican worked hard for better relations with Muslims and Orthodox Church.
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 05:36
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And we must not forget that this Pope in the previous position in the Vatican worked hard for better relations with Muslims and Orthodox Church.
In what ways exactly? For I seem to remember that he came from the department of the church which is, for all the changes in name, still the Roman Inquisition. Not the most forgiving and peace making institution... -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 05:38
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He could have just quoted from the Kuran, which could have been politicaly more correct for him & still conveyed what he really wanted to say.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 06:50
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A question to the Muslim people. Does really Quran, Sunna,Hadith or any relative call Islamic people to spread faith by war ?
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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 07:13
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No, but if I remember correctly it does say you can fight if the religious community is attacked. At least Muhammed conceded this to his followers when they came under pressure from their opponents in Arabia.
I do get the impression the Muslims howl at the slightest little mentioning of their faith in a negative context these days, it's one incident after the other, it's growing rather tiresome and I doubt they earn much respect in the world community this way. Manuel II does have a point too, Muhammed really didn't come up with a lot of new material, it's more like a simplified version of Christian and Jewish beliefs with added rituals. Of course, concerning the Pope's attitude, it should be remembered that this is the man who also claims listening to the Beatles is sinful. ------------- |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 07:32
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Well I make a research because my knowlenge for Jihad and Quran is a couple books.I found the below quotes as about Quran [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=1320 - http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=1320
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392 - http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=797085 - http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=797085
I think Quran is clearly as about those who disbelieve. Or the English translation is not good
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 08:07
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But it also says: 109.001 Say : O ye that reject Faith! 109.002 I worship not that which ye worship, 109.003 Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 109.004 And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, 109.005 Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 109.006 To you be your Way, and to me mine. The problem with those holy books (apart from the question if they are true) is that they're terribily inconsequent. Really, for an atheist like me remarks like "your religion is more violent and mine is more reasonable" are so pathetic.
Would be a good idea, but I think it is impossible, as long as all religions rigidly adhere to their own thruth criteriums. Whenever the pope says there is much truth in other religions as well (which he sometimes does), he doesn't mean catholicism can learn from other religions, but that other religions are right only on the points they have in common with catholicism. That's hardly a good base for a dialogue. |
Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 08:22
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I so tire of this endless predictable reaction from Muslims, I don't even care anymore what is said, it's frickin pathetic. We had the cartoons awhile ago, which IMO showed just how backward some people are in this world that they rioted over something so damn trivial. Likethey have nothing better to do with their time. Must one always watch what he/she says incase the oh so sensitive Muslims get offended? i'm sick to bloody death of it, it's so pathetic. ------------- A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 08:22
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Seperate the faith from the faithful since both religions have had good and bad leaders-followers. Do that and first it is not so important to look at the religoius books for answers, and second such statements/quotes can be understood given certain peroids in certain places. Manuel's quote can be understood in that way, how the quote is used is what can make it offensive. ive skimmed over the latin patriach's speech , and i dont think his intention was to offend, but i can only guess . Maybe it was insensative at this point in time, and massive disclaimers are most probably needed when such subjects are touched on. (particularly at such a high level within the church). pity though For people that think his intention was to offened, I ask this question, How do you know his intention? Muslim's are definatley very sensative and i do think this is also being manipulated and exploited. This should be understood in the enviroment created by the war on terror, war on lebanon, racial profiling in our security, the bad /biased media, internet ... i can understand why a small misunderstanding can become a big deal so quickly. now i read two churchs in the west bank get attacked (not even latin churchs) and i bet the attckers dont see the irony of their actions. -------------
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Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 10:54
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when will this planet be free from all this popes, priests, mullahs or what else, which are walking on this earth since several millennia and whispering out this poison of belief, war and rescue?
when will this planet be free from leaders, which are using the religions and it's representatives on earth , to implement their viperish thoughts.?
not before those who belive all these promises of an eternal live are still the willing subsidaries of the redeemer.
who cares about the pope ?
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http://imageshack.us"> 
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 13:27
The muslim world stands accused of violance and it responds with ... violance.   ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 13:40
Perhaps because these particular individuals are, to simply put it, idiots. Look at the state of them, have they no lives? Is this the highlight of their week or something, the traditional protest against nothing? There is no other word for it, other than pathetic. ------------- A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough. |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 13:50
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Certainly looks rather disgusting. That such individuals share objections by demonstrating through sheer anger. That type of reaction is not the way to protest in my opinion. Yet there are a bunch of people that react with emotion instead of reason.
Extremists aside, if the Pope (who has a history of bias against Islam) really wants to have dialogue with muslims he would be better off not to incite the easily exciteable. But show sensitivity and genuine desire for open discussions with a little more tact. ------------- |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 17:33
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I'll just add that the quotes from the Quran supplied by akritas should not be read out of their context, nuances are everything here. Islam does not legitimize aggression, as in drawing first blood, in the name of the faith. Still, it remains more open to violence than say, Christianity or Buddhism. This probably has to do with the political context in which Islam arose, and how Muhammed was forced to relate to it in a way that was necessary if his religious community should survice. Meaning that even though Muhammed initially favoured a non-violence approach, he later discovered this wasn't possible and conceded the right to fight in certain situations. Of course this was exploited by political leaders during the Arab conquests following Muhammed's death in ways which he might not have approven of, so one should be careful with completely equalizing Islam with the Arab conquests. At least that's what I think, I know it is quite easy to turn this the other way. ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 19:58
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Another link to the speech, for those who don't like PDFs http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748 - http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748 ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 20:55
Oh come on the Inquisition is not the History of the World evil priests torturing poor unfortunates. The inquisition is a means to deal with catholics who have been found to be out of touch with catholic teaching. Also, the means to get them back in touch with catholic teaching was to instruct them like a religion class and then if they refused to believe it then they were removed from the church (not sure on that though). It was the secular authorities that gave out the punishments never the catholic church. In fact the reason the spanish inquisition had so many people in it was because the inquisition prisons were much better than the spanish civil prisons and criminals would say something heretical to end up there.
The catholic church as a heiarchy tends to show a preference for not going with political correctness but with saying things that strenghthen their own political position in the world.
From what I understand this Pope is more of an intellectual type and wants to bring up the concept of what is jihad rather than the reality of past or presently occuring jihads.
Of course he's the Pope he's God's representative on earth, which makes him right. I know that's lame so let me explain. Most of the major dogmatic beliefs in the Catholic Church are so vague that it is quite easy to logically alter them into saying that this was Catholic teaching all along. Pope's have used it in the past to make it possible for catholics to believe in evolutionary theory. Dialogue is made possible because the Church as an entity is always striving for the revealed truth and as such God's revealations can come as compromises between different churches. In the end though you are correct the Catholic church sees itself as the one true church and any dialogue is done with the explicit purpose of making someone Catholic. Though the evolution of the church can and has occured. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 23:00
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What really bothers me about Muslims is that I never hear about any outrage when a popular Cleric allows the deaths of people or calls for violence. Where's the outrage across the world like we see in the above pictures?
Just a couple months ago a Cleric gave Bin Laden some kind of official Islamic permission to kill 10,000 Americans civilians. He actually put a limit on the amount of lives he's allowed to take! I believe this Cleric is from Egypt.
But why not call for him to resign from his post for giving a image of violence to a Religion thats supposed to be of love and peace? If getting upset about offencesive images and hearing someone calling your religion violent is enough to make a violent responce; why isn't it the same when someone in Islam who remains in the public eye and not hiding like the terrorist, makes those images seem true?
Other then that, I like how Muslims believe in advancing civilization instead of staying in stagnation. Or atleast reading the forums thats the image I get. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey 
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Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 01:11
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Just a question; didn't mohammed (sp?) lead military campaigns and at one point execute 700 Jews? I bought a translated copy of the Quran but have yet to read it. My view is that Islam has as its prophet a military and spiritual leader which is completely different from christianity. I think this is a contributing factor to the conflicts between the two religions. I am a lutheran (christian) and hold christ (christianity) higher than mohammed (Islam) because christ didn't lead military campaigns. But of course that is my opinion and I don't get upset when people disagree with me on that. I think it comes down to other people believing in something just as much as you do only what they believe is different. Peace on this earth will never exist until there is only one religion left or no religions at all. Sad but true.
On a side note I wouldn't underestimate the fact that the muslim world is infinitely poorer and therefore less educated than the christian world. Generally speaking it is the ignorant who are the religious zealots. An example is that the muslims I have met on this forum have acted in as civilized a manner as the christians (depending on the christian sometimes more civilized). If only we could control our emotions.  ------------- "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann 
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 03:09
Thank you Reginmund. You said every thing I wished to say. The context of those verses is clear, don't fight unless your forced to, but if you are fight properly.
Because the media doesn't report and you don't listen. Not because it doesn't happen. They just aren't interested in saying anything good about Islam ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 10:25
If there is any huge mass protests, whether peaceful or violent that can compare to the ones we see all the time, then show me. I honestly haven't heard of any huge protests calling for the resignation of a top Cleric, all I ever see are their followers that seem to number in the hundreds who are chanting for him. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 11:18
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Cleric in Islam are not appointed to a mosque as such. They are added as necessary. So if you build a local mosque typically they hire local people to lead the prayers/ They may get a stipend but usually they are not professional clerics as such.
As for the others, they are not clerics but theologians. Who work for their organizations. So to ask for their resignations would be fruitless.
First know, then critisize.
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Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 12:21
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And yet Muslims were calling for countries to apologize on the behalf of newspapers. By law the news papers were allowed freedom of speech. Their freedom allowed them to portray Muslims as bloodthirsty terrorist, then you have these guys, "Clerics", who are very popular that just give off that image of aggression and not peace. Thats my point, get up in arms about those who claim to be a Muslim and who are viewed for the world to see as one! Because if you want to end the stereotype, then you have to stop the reasons for it.
I'm not saying to stop the radical Islamic terrorists like Al Qaeda, but to protest those who are allowed to walk in public and give lectures on how violence is the answer towards others using Islam as a guise. Start at the roots, then branch out is all I'm saying. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 12:45
Muhammed was declared war upon as soon as he came out in the ope-he had to wage war
Crusades? The library in Egypt that was burned down? Spanish inquistion? Ring any bells? ------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 12:47
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Muslims all around the world are doing a good job on showing tht pope he was wrong...a curch was bombed down I think lately....."Take that Benedict!! Who's violent now?!?!" ------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 14:31
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Good point Guardian. Just as some of us don''t approve of the Pope's misguided intentions we certainly do not approve of the bombing of churches in return. By defending a belief many others show how disfunctional they can be. I definitley object to violent reactions by moslems. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 14:58
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Every once in awhile we will hear from a Muslim who comes on tv from the community in the US saying this isn't what their beliefs are about, which I believe. But I never see mass protesting anywhere on a large scale that you see with cartoons and the Pope's words.
We dont see any mass christian mass protesting about pope too. It is interesting all muslims should mass protest because of some maniacs, but christians should not protest, If leader of their religion attack other religions.
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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 15:08
I guess this is because we don't give a damn about what the leaders of our religion say.
Neither do we protest if someone attacks our religion. If some allegation is untrue, it cannot hurt you and you can always debate it instead of becoming berserk. ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 15:17
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I guess this is because we don't give a damn about what the leaders of our religion say.
why do you think,we give a damn to what bin laden do or say?(Plus bin laden dont represent islam, but pope absolutely do represent christianity)
Neither do we protest if someone attacks our religion. If some allegation is untrue, it cannot hurt you and you can always debate it instead of becoming berserk.
Yeah, instead of going to berserk, you just attack other countries, and kill some innocent women and children.(Should we continue to generalize each other?)
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Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 15:26
My point flew right over your head. If they are going to protest about people saying bad things about them, then why not protest those who call for violence and claim to be Muslim? It's these kind of people that create the stereotypes that seem to make the Muslim regions inflame into a inferno.
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 15:34
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That was not a religious matter and didn't happen over cartoons or someone throwing words around.
Realy? tell this to bush.
Christians also don't protest, get violent over cartoons, start burning things, and making demands. The Muslims seem to.
True christians generally talk at stormfront.
My point flew right over your head. If they are going to protest about people saying bad things about them, then why not protest those who call for violence and claim to be Muslim? It's these kind of people that create the stereotypes that seem to make the Muslim regions inflame into a inferno.
Not excatly true, If pope dont create any stereotype about christianity, I am sure these people wont create any strerotype too.
So If a steretype was created, It is not because of muslims but It is because of minds which accepted these stereotypes.
Plus none of these people represent islam(Muslims dont accept bin laden as their leader remember?) as whole, but pope do.
is this realy so much difficult to understand? |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 15:37
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LOL sorry, I just read a newspaper. And It says.
Kardinal Julian Herranz said, Pope talk in the name of God. So pope dont just present christiand but also jesus, god and holy spirit?
It looks like even your gods attacked muslims.
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 15:43
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Pope didnt offend anyone. Like everyone else he can use freedom of speech. If you remember not long time ago we were discussing about denish cartoons and eralier about the death of Theo van Gogh.
Just look at those creazy muslims, their angry faces, fanatic sight, bloodhungry hands. They are ready to kill any of us together with our famillies and home pets just in case if one of us has verbally offend them.
Islam in the past was a great religion but nowadays, lets face it, it is religion that has degenerated into madness.
In times of crusades Muslims were way more enlighted than Christians but today.... so many of them are pervert maniacs...
Remember muslim reaction when Al Kaida destroyed WTC? It was euphoria... people were on the street looking as happy as if they got World Cup in soccer. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 15:47
I honestly hope your joking that Religion is the motivation behind it all.
[/quote]
is this realy so much difficult to understand? [/quote] I'm finding it is for you.
Now I personally know they don't represent Islam, I said that many times already, but people who don't know anything about Islam which can be said to be the majority of the west will believe stereotypes because of these people. These people only feed those who draw offensive cartoons.
Then again it's a never ending cycle since the protests usually seem to become violent which just make the stereotypes seem true for people... ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 15:58
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So your saying it wasn't planes that crashed into our buildings that caused the war?
I honestly hope your joking that Religion is the motivation behind it all.
So you are telling me Allah ordered bin laden to crash your buildings, and He attacked your building only because of religious reason. Not any relation with israel? It is interesting you are talking about bin laden religion, but not bush religion.
True Christians? What defines a true Christian? Then again you might have to discuss this with a Christian as I'm not one.
I mean. You are right. Christians dont go berserk. They talk and talk at stormfront.
Read what I said about Clerics. There are popular clerics past and present who call for violence.
Well, I dont remember any famous men(I respected)that called for killing christians.
and Islam has no cleric. Our imams are not more special than next muslim. Imam is someone who lead praying, nothing more.
Then again it's a never ending cycle since the protests usually seem to become violent which just make the stereotypes seem true for people... True, but pope is not someone who have no idea about what is islam.
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 16:00
There was a joke about it:
Pope died and went to heaven. At the gates of Heaven ST. Peter welcomes him and askes:
- WHO ARE YOU?
-Im Pope
- WHO?
- Pope, bishop of Rome
- Iv never heard about it,
-im a governor of God on earth, im his voice and I represent him on earth - said Pope
St. Peter told him to wait at the gates and went to God and told him about the Pope.
"I dont know about any such guy but ask Jesus, maybe he knows who is that Pope." said God and St. Peter came to Jesus and told him the story.
Jesus said that both God and St. Peter should wait and he will go to talk with the pope.
After 30 minutes Jesus comes back to God and St. Peter. He cannot stop laughing, falls on the ground and laughs. After some time he finally was able to speak and says to God and St. Peter who are watching him with curiosity:
-" Guys, do you remember that fishing club i started 2000 years ago"
-yes - answered God and St. Peter
- so - Jesus said- they still exists and even got billion members
 ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 16:39
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? ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 17:18
What I've been saying is why don't Muslims protest against those who are able to walk freely in their countries, such as one Cleric in Egypt, and use Islam as a political tool for violence.
Maybe it happens, I don't know, I never see any protest. But I find it funny that cartoons and words that portray a Muslim as violent causes enough stir to make violence, yet a Religious man in the Muslim community calls for it publicly and nothing is done, atleast as far as I know. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 17:30
Mosquito, as one of the more religious people here I have to still say love that joke.  ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 17:32
Relax man...Relax...
A group of angry faces you saw on Polsat Channel can not account for the many of 1 billion people. ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 17:41
Mortaza,
1-Benedict XVI does not represent the Christianity in ''whole''. He is the head of the Vatican. That is to say, the Catholic world
2-Christians in Europe does not care about him. I have met hundred of European Christians,yet not met one single religious one so far.
Do you know the condom crises between the EU and Vatican? Please make a search on Google.
As I said before we put a higher value on Benedict XVI than the western Europeans
 . So his remarks has frustrated Muslims.This is what angry Muslim fellowers fail on3-Your point about Bin Laden is true. Same for others whom Christians consider as representing Islam. And this is the point where believers of Christianity fail to recognize.It is the fact that there is no clergy class in Islam..So what one imam says does not bind whole community. ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 19:48
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OMG the generalizations are beyond belief.
Just a couple of truths:
Justinian "Just a question; didn't mohammed (sp?) lead military campaigns and at one point execute 700 Jews? I bought a translated copy of the Quran but have yet to read it. My view is that Islam has as its prophet a military and spiritual leader which is completely different from christianity. I think this is a contributing factor to the conflicts between the two religions. I am a lutheran (christian) and hold christ (christianity) higher than mohammed (Islam) because christ didn't lead military campaigns. "
Well, Justinian u have managed to say what u want without causing strife, unlike the pope. ------------- |
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 20:34
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The Pope should have known better. He should known by now that Islam is a very fragile religion and that something as small as a comment can turn an ant hill into a mountain. ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 21:07
------------- |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 21:14
Where did you get that conclusion from? ------------- |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 21:57
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Good question, I sometimes amaze even myself. ------------- |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 07:26
Is this y 65% of al-qaeda are university graduates? According to an asia times report i think. ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 07:48
But how does a person make a guess to their fragility. It seems to be getting more & more without following any laws. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 09:20
The religion of Islam is not fragile. Those who tend to talk about the negative aspects of some of its followers may be though.  It's a religion with followers of many shapes, sizes and mentalities.
People amazingly could make a guess and accusation on anything. Even call a billion people fragile. 
Back to the main topic. If the pope wanted to have genuine dialogue then he could have said so without taking a nasty shot at another religion. Is he an expert on Islam? About the historical fate of the 700 Jews, its been discussed before and if you read the various threads in the past you would have known that Muhammed left the fate of them to the decision of one of their own. ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 09:33
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 09:38
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but was he really taking a shot seko? i just cant see anything more than a clumsily used (not so sensative quote) and a few very sensative protesers who most propably havent read the whole speech and just heard parts of the quote. Add in a some ironic violence, populist demand for an apolgy...wait another apology um.....not enough we want more than that apology, mix it in with the western media giving the protesters more airplay then they should, add some flour and i can bake you an issue.  -------------
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 11:17
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Well, many differencens between Christians and Muslims are obvious.
When you say joke about christians, pope, Jesus (whatever) most of catholics (or christians) laugh (if joke is good).
When you say joke about Islam many muslims want to cut your head off, kill your familly, burn your house, crash your car and rape your cat...
------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 12:10
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I would say there is a huge problem in the Muslim world with that train of thought. And I wont subscribe to 'it's only a few muslims who do it'. It is true that most muslims arent terrorists but for most Muslims in the middle east, they would riot in the streets over things they shuoldnt. Remember the danish cartoons? That epsiode really shook me. I, from then on, abandoned the thought process that 'its not all muslims'. I firmly believe that the vast majority of muslims would deny me my freedom of speech and expression to burn the koran and draw offensive pictures of mohmmed.
I would never do those things, in fact i deplore it. But if somebody were to portray Jesus as a terrorist, while i would hate it, I would still relent and say it's their right to do it.
No most muslims arent terrorists, but most would deny the common westerner their freedom of speech. Which is why the 2 worlds arent compadable.
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Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 13:17
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About Pope's comment and freedom of speech.
Freedom of thought and religion:
"There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient."
[2:256]
Freedom of opinion:
"Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve...."
[18:29]
About those who uses Islam for their ill actions:
"He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed."
[3:7]
"Therefore, woe to those who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains."
[2:79]
And as for me, I value the comments of some of the AE users (such as Northman, Seko, Omar al Hashim, etc.. ) much more than the comments of some Pope
------------- |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 14:07
You know that is very clever and un-prejudiced to generalise muslims that way..keep up the good work ------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 14:10
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edit: accidently hit the post button too soon. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 14:11
So you're saying Al-Qaeda members are representative for Muslims?  ------------- |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 14:13
Yes-a vast majority of muslims-christians, and jews-even hindus would deny you of that sort of freedom of speech, so you shouldn't focus on only one sect, that would be making an unbelivably large mistake
------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 14:15
You know, you may not notice it but some of your choice of words might be considered very offensive to some poeple
------------- It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. &nb |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 14:19
I'm going to test that theory.
The christian one:
The Pope goes to New York.
He is picked up at the airport by a limousine. He looks at the beautiful car and says to the driver, "You know, I hardly ever get to drive. Would you please let me?" The driver is understandably hesistant and says, "I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm supposed to do that." But the Pope persists, "Please?" The driver finally lets up. "Oh, all right, I can't really say no to the Pope." So the Pope takes the wheel, and boy, is he a speed demon! He hits the gas and goes around 100 mph in a 45 zone. A policeman notices and pulls him over. The cop walks up and asks the Pope to roll down the window. Startled and surprised, the young officer asks the Pope to wait a minute. He goes back to his patrol car and radios the chief. Cop: Chief, I have a problem. Chief: What sort of problem? Cop: Well, you see, I pulled over this guy for driving way over the speed limit but it's someone really important. Chief: Important like the mayor? Cop: No, no, much more important than that. Chief: Important like the governor? Cop: Wayyyyyy more important than that. Chief: Like the president? Cop: More. Chief: Who's more important than the president? Cop: I don't know, but he's got the Pope DRIVING for him! The muslim one:
An Imam was feeling bored one Friday and decided to take the day off away from the Masjid. He told the assistant Imam he wasn't feeling well and drove off. He stopped at a golf course about forty miles away (so that no one would know him.) Up in Heaven, the angels were talking. One said to another, "He can just get away with that! This is wrong - Jummah is mandatory for him and he is an example for so many believers!" The other angel agreed but decided to wait to see how Allah would take care of him. The Imam teed off on the first hole and suddenly, the wind picked up, blowing the ball right in the hole for a 420 yard hole-in-one. The angels looked at each other in great surprise. One said, "Why did He do that??" The other realized the wisdom behind it and smiled... "Who's he going to tell?" ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 15:03
This is a good one
BTW, Everybody loves to hear jokes. The problem is the intention of the people making the joke. There is a difference of making a joke for a good laugh and making a joke for insulting. ------------- |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 15:12
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And here is a sarcastic one:
A man is taking a walk in Central park in New York. Suddenly he sees a little girl being attacked by a pit bull dog . He runs over and starts fighting with the dog. He succeeds in killing the dog and saving the girl's life. A policeman who was watching the scene walks over and says: "You are a hero, tomorrow you can read it in all the newspapers: "Brave New Yorker saves the life of little girl" The man says: - "But I am not a New Yorker!" "Oh ,then it will say in newspapers in the morning: 'Brave American saves life of little girl'" – the policeman answers. "But I am not an American!" – says the man. "Oh, what are you then? " The man says: - "I am a Saudi !" The next day the newspapers says: "Islamic extremist kills innocent American dog.
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Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 17:06
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Tell me how im being offensive?
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 17:21
doesnt matter, the facts are that when bin Laden bombed WTC majority of muslims were happy. Maybe not all of them went out on the streets showing their enthusiasms but even in private talk some of them were saying that Americans got what they deserved. I know because i talked to some. In general first they were saying that are against terrorism but next were adding that Americans were asking for such punishment.
In Great Britain local muslims, not foreigners murdered in London tens of innocent people. In Madrid died hundrieds.
It is clash of civilisations and sooner or later it will result in much more violent conflict. Maybe not soon because islamic fanatics dont feel strong enough yet but if they get chance they will try to kill all of us. Call it generalisation if you want but you cant deny facts that if they had atomics they would have already nuked most of us. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 17:36
How in Earth can you know that the majority of the muslims were happy just by talking a few around ? Your ignorance level goes even beyond by calling it a fact.
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Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 17:49
Make up your mind please. First you call it majority and describe it as a fact. A minute later you are telling it does not matter. Excuse me but it matters for an intelligent discussion.
Yes, these God damn terrorists murdered hundreds and maybe thousands which we do not know about. But they are terrorists. Any intelligent soul, without a religion or not, fight against them. ------------- |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 18:06
I was commenting on what you wrote, not your state of mind. If you call something is black for sure and then say it maybe white, anybody can question your comment (not your state of mind).
How are you getting to these imaginary statistics ? 150 million people supporting an idiot murderer and you are afraid it maybe more? Interesting. I have no more comment.
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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 18:07
I believe you have the gist of contemporary Islam, Mosquito.
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 18:21
they already murdered one yesterday. Maybe not beheaded but shot. It was Italian nun working in hospital.
The brave lions of Jihad murderd 70 years old nun shooting in her back to revange the pope's insult. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 18:37
Normal faithful Muslim people are like me Mosquito. It is obvious that the ones you are describing are not normal. Generalizing people by attaching common behaviors to them is not good as you are doing now. What amazes me is that you are calling them the majority. After the attack on WTC, billions of people prayed after our lost including the muslims for sure. ------------- |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 18:45
Then he deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his unworthy life. It is that simple. God rest her soul.
The complex part of the solution is how we can identify the feeding parties of these murderous people. As a believer and a Muslim, I am telling you, according to Quran, that bastard is directly going to Hell. But the problem is that bastard was thinking the otherwise. Which in turn means, there are groups, powers that are feeding people like him with bullsh*t. They must be identified. This is my humble opinion. ------------- |
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 19:01
 Now, I don't mean to offened anyone, but sometimes I think Muslims are just waiting for a fight. They will protest and burn flags over the most dumbest things, such as the Cartoons published in the Danish magazine. Again, I don't mean to offened anyone, it's just my opinion. ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 19:08
Well Scorpius, it wasnt my intention in offend you and I hope that i didnt.
I always had great respect for Islam. It is just last few years since I started to change my mind. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 19:31
Thanks for your kind words Mosquito and don't worry, I am not offended at all. I just felt sorry that because of some evil people who call themselves Muslims (and they are not), whole population of Muslims are identified as violent, unstable, murderous fanatics. And I fear the idea of growing opinions of this kind. Not long time ago, I was in I hope you understand me, too. That is what I am afraid of ... Edit: HTML ------------- |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 19:46
Its terrible to hear such things. Im Polish and in my country for centuries we had multireligious society. In old Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania were catholics and protestants, muslims and jews, armenians and orthodox christians but we have never had any religious wars. Everyone was living in peace with members of other religions and in time of religious wars in Europe we were proud of our tollerance.
But nowadays I slowly become a jacobine in the french fashion and i adopt similar vievs on religions and ways how people demonstrate their beliefs. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 03:41
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Sometimes I feel that people already go into something with a biased state of mind. For instance if you are a Muslim, or even if you arent and youve heard of the Popes speech from someone who was offended, dont go into it thinking that you yourself obviously have to be offended as well. Here is an opinion from a Muslim on the speech:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detaileditorial.asp?fileid=20060919.E02&irec=1 - www.thejakartapost.com/detaileditorial.asp?fileid=20060919.E02&irec=1
I dont blame Muslims for being offended at some direct things that people may say. After all how can you help being "offended", its an emotion. For some, its difficult to be offended. Stuff just seems to role off their back. What I do have a problem with is the fact that some of these Muslims think that because a certain people have said or drawn derogatory words or caricatures about their faith that that is a pass for them to kill said people.
In my personal opinion I think these fanatics take passages from the Koran out of context and apply it to todays world, thats probably their justification. Which I would think Muslims today would probably disagree with, just my opinion tho.
------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |
Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 04:02
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I liked this pope when he was playing Stanley Roper in Three's Company. ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum/forums.html |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 04:08
|
The root cause is that muslims are fanatical about their belief. they are taught that everything that is written is good, all else is evil. They are taught that kuran is the best book in the world & is the only truth in the world. They are taught that they are the only belivers, all else are infidels. If their system of education changes, they will become more like others. Like Jinna the founder of pak for example, he always spoke for the muslims, but himself was fully westernised, drank liquor & ate Port. There is this hisoty of the great library at Alexandria being burnt down, the reason Kuran is the only truth / good book in this world. The reasoning given by the invaders muslims for destroying all this knowledge was that whatever is not mentioned in kuran doesnt deserve to survive. And any book containing things mentioned in kuran or agreeing with it also need not survive since kuran has all that information !!! ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |