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Omar al Hashim
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Topic: Muslims and the Caste System Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 04:22 |
In Islam one of the most fundamental principles is the absolute equality of all people (except in terms of piety) and therefore Islam is incompatable with the caste system. However, from a number of things Ashok and AP Singh have said, I gather that there are many muslims across the subcontient who aren't strictly following this rule, and partake in the caste system. Or at the very least, are aware of what caste their ancestors belonged to.
I'm wondering what information people know about muslims participating in the caste system, how widespread it is, (and some basic information on the system probably wouldn't go astray)?
Omar,
Edited by Omar al Hashim - 11-Sep-2006 at 04:22
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 06:02 |
Although not as rigid as the Indian caste system, the Muslims practice the same widely in India at least. Not only muslims, but also christians.
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Dear Sir
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Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 01:26 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
In Islam one of the most fundamental principles is the absolute equality of all people (except in terms of piety) and therefore Islam is incompatable with the caste system. However, from a number of things Ashok and AP Singh have said, I gather that there are many muslims across the subcontient who aren't strictly following this rule, and partake in the caste system. Or at the very least, are aware of what caste their ancestors belonged to.
I'm wondering what information people know about muslims participating in the caste system, how widespread it is, (and some basic information on the system probably wouldn't go astray)?
Omar,
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Judging from a number of things I've read on this forum,I've come to the conclusion that many Muslims from the sub-continent are racists.I guess that deserves another thread.
Omar which of the two evils is worse,in your opinion.Caste system or racism?
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 02:21 |
Racism. You can change your caste by your deeds, but not the race.
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maqsad
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Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 02:23 |
Well has not Islam itself created a new type of caste system? Like for instance syeds. You cannot become a syed but have to be born a syed. Obvioulsy they believe they are different than the rest of humanity and "blessed" favorably.
Then we have Arabs. Arab muslims believe they are different than other muslims because they speak the "holy language" of the Quran.
Another caste we have in Islam is the Ismailis. I don't think you can become one just because you feel like it.
Then we have the shia and sunni castes.
Just off the top of my head. ..actually the word caste can have so many interpretations.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 02:40 |
Originally posted by Dear Sir
Judging from a number of things I've read on this forum,I've come
to the conclusion that many Muslims from the sub-continent are
racists.I guess that deserves another thread.
Omar which of the two evils is worse,in your opinion.Caste system or racism? |
If you have a concern about a particular member, please send me or Anuj
a PM with a link to the posts in question and we will look into it.
I don't know enough about the caste system to make a judgement, but Vivek's answer looks good to me.
Originally posted by Maqsad
Well has not Islam itself created a new type of caste system? |
Theoritically there shouldn't be, pratically is what I started the thread to discuss.
Like for instance syeds. You cannot become a syed but have to be
born a syed. Obvioulsy they believe they are different than the rest of
humanity and "blessed" favorably. |
Sorry we don't think that. Our title Syed is just our lineage, it doesn't make us any better or worse than anyone else.
Edited by Omar al Hashim - 12-Sep-2006 at 05:36
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 04:33 |
In India everybody has castes, including the christians !
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Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 10:00 |
I have a question here...
If muslims and christians in India also do have caste in the social hirarchy..
wht is their caste rank like? I mean.. like hindus.. they have Brahmin, Ksyatria.. and etc (sorry if i do any wrong spelling here!)
this is something strange.. muslims and caste
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malizai_
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Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 20:16 |
Originally posted by maqsad
Well has not Islam itself created a new type of caste system? Like for instance syeds. You cannot become a syed but have to be born a syed. Obvioulsy they believe they are different than the rest of humanity and "blessed" favorably.
Then we have Arabs. Arab muslims believe they are different than other muslims because they speak the "holy language" of the Quran.
Another caste we have in Islam is the Ismailis. I don't think you can become one just because you feel like it.
Then we have the shia and sunni castes.
Just off the top of my head. ..actually the word caste can have so many interpretations. |
Isnt the source of distinction: "The best of you are those who are best in deeds". There is no syed caste.
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maqsad
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 01:59 |
Originally posted by malizai_
Isnt the source of distinction: "The best of you are those who are best in deeds". There is no syed caste. |
You can say what you want but the fact is that non syeds cannot become syeds no matter how hard they try or how much they want to. Its similar to how a kshatriya cannot become a brahmin no matter how much he studies or how much he wants to, its just not accepted in orthodox vedic hinduism. Also no matter how much an ashkenazi desires to be shepardic he cannot become one. Same thing in Islam. Now you can say there is no syed caste but do you know any syeds who have decided that they will disolve the title as a gesture of equality? I don't. In fact they seem to like being part of this group and want to hold on to it. I really haven't looked into this much but I do believe that there are quite a few syeds who look down upon non syeds simply because of having a certain bloodline. Lol which can be anywhere from 1/256th to 1/2 original Quraishi I suppose but the point is that its quite close in definition to what I and many others would consider a caste. Of course if you don't like this definition you will argue against it thats understandable.
Edited by maqsad - 13-Sep-2006 at 02:00
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 03:59 |
Originally posted by cahaya
I have a question here...
If muslims and christians in India also do have caste in the social hirarchy..
wht is their caste rank like? I mean.. like hindus.. they have Brahmin, Ksyatria.. and etc (sorry if i do any wrong spelling here!)
this is something strange.. muslims and caste |
Their are shias, sunnis, khojas, ismailis, bohris, memons, syeds, queraishis, pathans, malabaris, ahmadis, ashrafs, ajlaf, arzal, shaikh, pathan, mughal / turk, swat, gujjar, maniyar, khatik, lodhi, mujawar, machhimar, julaha, teli, darji, dhunia, kunjra, hajjam, rangrez, halalkhor, lalbegi, abdal, bediya......their are so many
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 05:06 |
Lets change the question, everyone is pointing out families and ethnic groups and saying they are castes.
What is the caste system? The details and the basics for people who indoctrinated from birth to not trust it.
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 05:37 |
Originally posted by Omar
Lets change the question, everyone is pointing out families and ethnic groups and saying they are castes.
What is the caste system? The details and the basics for people who indoctrinated from birth to not trust it.
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Yeah... I'm agree with Omar here
Sunni and Shias are not caste.. In Malaysia also we have those who are from Syeds and Shaikhs' families and they are for real not refer to caste system...
Luckily.. we dont have tht kind of social system.. caste... if muslims have caste.. wht is Islam for them actually?
i found this article about caste system by muslim in India :
Maybe someone can explain about Ashraf and Non-Ashraf issue
Edited by cahaya - 13-Sep-2006 at 05:38
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 07:34 |
Then how else would you define a caste, if the above listed communities are not castes. Ask any shaikh or syyed to marry a kunjra muslim & you will get the answer. Ask any Kunjra to eat with a bedia & you will get the answer. Ask any pathan to marry a malbari & you get the answer. The theory of islam may be anything, but come to india to see the system. Infact indian muslims are fighting the government for recognition of their cast system as official, since till now the govt. under the influence of ashrafis, deobandis & barelvis has refused to officially accept that this caste system exists.
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 07:35 |
Ashrafis are original muslims who came from arabia, iran etc.. Non ashrafis are the hindus who were converted.
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 07:36 |
For example Shaikhs & sayyeds are ashrafis whereas the gujjars of both india & pakistan are ajlafis.
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Mortaza
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 08:27 |
Ask any shaikh or syyed to marry a kunjra muslim & you will get the answer.
In turkey, syyed simple means, People from The prophet family(So you cannot become syyed). They can and do marry with others. Infact It is not such important thing to become syyed.(If you are not religious, people just will ignore your syyed ground)
It looks like a lot of thing is different at india. If A syyed or other groups refuse marrying with others, This is a caste.
It is interesting. This type of injustice is totally against to islam mentality.
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 08:36 |
It's not actually injustice, but a form of groupism or say inclusivity or inbreeding in scientific terms.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 08:39 |
In fact, as an advocate of some of its merits, I would like to ask you, Would a millionair industrialist prefer his daughter marrying the son of an industrialist or a pauper.
And while I am not being racist, would a chinese parent prefer their son marrying a polynesian or a Chinese ?
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AP Singh
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Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 09:32 |
Is everybody who is pious irrespective of his religion is considered equal human being to others or only Muslims are considered equals among themselves?
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