Muslims and the Caste System
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of the South Asian subcontinent
Forum Discription: The Indian sub-continent and South Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14658
Printed Date: 12-May-2024 at 13:40
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Muslims and the Caste System
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Subject: Muslims and the Caste System
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 04:22
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In Islam one of the most fundamental principles is the absolute equality of all people (except in terms of piety) and therefore Islam is incompatable with the caste system. However, from a number of things Ashok and AP Singh have said, I gather that there are many muslims across the subcontient who aren't strictly following this rule, and partake in the caste system. Or at the very least, are aware of what caste their ancestors belonged to. I'm wondering what information people know about muslims participating in the caste system, how widespread it is, (and some basic information on the system probably wouldn't go astray)? Omar, |
Replies:
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 06:02
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Although not as rigid as the Indian caste system, the Muslims practice the same widely in India at least. Not only muslims, but also christians.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Dear Sir
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 01:26
Judging from a number of things I've read on this forum,I've come to the conclusion that many Muslims from the sub-continent are racists.I guess that deserves another thread.
Omar which of the two evils is worse,in your opinion.Caste system or racism? -------------  AHAM BRAHMASMI
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 02:21
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Racism. You can change your caste by your deeds, but not the race.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 02:23
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Well has not Islam itself created a new type of caste system? Like for instance syeds. You cannot become a syed but have to be born a syed. Obvioulsy they believe they are different than the rest of humanity and "blessed" favorably. Then we have Arabs. Arab muslims believe they are different than other muslims because they speak the "holy language" of the Quran. Another caste we have in Islam is the Ismailis. I don't think you can become one just because you feel like it. Then we have the shia and sunni castes. Just off the top of my head. ..actually the word caste can have so many interpretations. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 02:40
If you have a concern about a particular member, please send me or Anuj a PM with a link to the posts in question and we will look into it. I don't know enough about the caste system to make a judgement, but Vivek's answer looks good to me.
Theoritically there shouldn't be, pratically is what I started the thread to discuss.
Sorry we don't think that. Our title Syed is just our lineage, it doesn't make us any better or worse than anyone else. ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 04:33
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In India everybody has castes, including the christians !
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 10:00
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I have a question here...
If muslims and christians in India also do have caste in the social hirarchy..
wht is their caste rank like? I mean.. like hindus.. they have Brahmin, Ksyatria.. and etc (sorry if i do any wrong spelling here!)
this is something strange.. muslims and caste
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 20:16
Isnt the source of distinction: "The best of you are those who are best in deeds". There is no syed caste. ------------- |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 01:59
You can say what you want but the fact is that non syeds cannot become syeds no matter how hard they try or how much they want to. Its similar to how a kshatriya cannot become a brahmin no matter how much he studies or how much he wants to, its just not accepted in orthodox vedic hinduism. Also no matter how much an ashkenazi desires to be shepardic he cannot become one. Same thing in Islam. Now you can say there is no syed caste but do you know any syeds who have decided that they will disolve the title as a gesture of equality? I don't. In fact they seem to like being part of this group and want to hold on to it. I really haven't looked into this much but I do believe that there are quite a few syeds who look down upon non syeds simply because of having a certain bloodline. Lol which can be anywhere from 1/256th to 1/2 original Quraishi I suppose but the point is that its quite close in definition to what I and many others would consider a caste. Of course if you don't like this definition you will argue against it thats understandable. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 03:59
Their are shias, sunnis, khojas, ismailis, bohris, memons, syeds, queraishis, pathans, malabaris, ahmadis, ashrafs, ajlaf, arzal, shaikh, pathan, mughal / turk, swat, gujjar, maniyar, khatik, lodhi, mujawar, machhimar, julaha, teli, darji, dhunia, kunjra, hajjam, rangrez, halalkhor, lalbegi, abdal, bediya......their are so many ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 05:06
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Lets change the question, everyone is pointing out families and ethnic groups and saying they are castes. What is the caste system? The details and the basics for people who indoctrinated from birth to not trust it. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 05:37
Yeah... I'm agree with Omar here
Sunni and Shias are not caste.. In Malaysia also we have those who are from Syeds and Shaikhs' families and they are for real not refer to caste system...
Luckily.. we dont have tht kind of social system.. caste... if muslims have caste.. wht is Islam for them actually?
i found this article about caste system by muslim in India :
http://www.anti-caste.org/muslim_question/caste/bhatty_article.html - http://www.anti-caste.org/muslim_question/caste/bhatty_article.html
Maybe someone can explain about Ashraf and Non-Ashraf issue
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 07:34
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Then how else would you define a caste, if the above listed communities are not castes. Ask any shaikh or syyed to marry a kunjra muslim & you will get the answer. Ask any Kunjra to eat with a bedia & you will get the answer. Ask any pathan to marry a malbari & you get the answer. The theory of islam may be anything, but come to india to see the system. Infact indian muslims are fighting the government for recognition of their cast system as official, since till now the govt. under the influence of ashrafis, deobandis & barelvis has refused to officially accept that this caste system exists. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 07:35
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Ashrafis are original muslims who came from arabia, iran etc.. Non ashrafis are the hindus who were converted. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 07:36
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For example Shaikhs & sayyeds are ashrafis whereas the gujjars of both india & pakistan are ajlafis.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 08:27
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Ask any shaikh or syyed to marry a kunjra muslim & you will get the answer.
In turkey, syyed simple means, People from The prophet family(So you cannot become syyed). They can and do marry with others. Infact It is not such important thing to become syyed.(If you are not religious, people just will ignore your syyed ground)
It looks like a lot of thing is different at india. If A syyed or other groups refuse marrying with others, This is a caste.
It is interesting. This type of injustice is totally against to islam mentality.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 08:36
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It's not actually injustice, but a form of groupism or say inclusivity or inbreeding in scientific terms.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 08:39
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In fact, as an advocate of some of its merits, I would like to ask you, Would a millionair industrialist prefer his daughter marrying the son of an industrialist or a pauper. And while I am not being racist, would a chinese parent prefer their son marrying a polynesian or a Chinese ? ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: AP Singh
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 09:32
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Is everybody who is pious irrespective of his religion is considered equal human being to others or only Muslims are considered equals among themselves? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 11:36
They are trying to make it legal? wow... this is really.. strange.. but interesting..
well.. if u say for muslims they ar etrying.. do u mean Hindus.. have made theirs legally acceptable?
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Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 14:58
That would hardly mean anything today though since by now they would have mixed with the native muslims to quite an extent. Similar to how the bombay parsees have also mixed with indians. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 22:17
All people are strictly equal in any way humans can measure.
I agree, in addition there the (majority I assume) who converted from Buddhism. From my experience living in Pakistan, there is certainly classism but I wouldn't say it was castism. People will be predjudice against people based upon wealth and education and even a little bit about family name. But people don't care (or probably even know) whether your decendent from a convert or a migrant. ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 02:51
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The caste system was basically class based. Over a period of time, it bacame birth based. That's what happens now.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 05:41
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1. There is one famous "Mandal Commission" judgment delivered by the Hon'ble Supreme Court of India - Indira Shawney & Ors vs Union of India.
2. This judgment discusses at length about the caste systemm in Islam mentioning different stratrification made theologically placing Sayyids at the top and Labbais at the bottom. One should reead the judment before discussing about "the caste system oif Muslims".
3. The Muslim caste system exhibits otherwise in their "treibal identities" coupled with theological "Sunni", "Shia", "Wahabi", Khaidiyani", "Bohras", "Ahmeddiyas" and so on.
4. Of course, the Christianb caste suystem is the denomication with stratified churches in every country cuopled with theological concepts of doctrine of trinity, immaculate conception, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, blood etc.
5. How Indians are treated in foreign countries is well known whether they are Hindus, Muslims or Christians. Whites always consciousness of "Race", "Racism", "Racialism".
So why accuse one another?
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 06:11
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Infact the caste system & untouchability exist more so in muhammedanism rather than hinduism.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 11:38
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Infact rubbish. ------------- |
Posted By: Tipu Sultan
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 12:22
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well said malizai vivek is biased to the core against muslims and christains. so i am an indian muslim and i have to add something here.vivek says there is caste system in india which is absolutely rubbish.can i prove it ? yes i can. vivek i openly challenge you to mention one mosque in india where a person who is in all rags cannot stand beside shoulder to shoulder next to the richest person.(both being muslims) |
Posted By: jayeshks
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 18:00
No, Christian denominations are more analagous to things like differences between Vaishnavs and Shaivites etc. It's not a vertical stratification of groups by any means. The Caste system has its merits and its origins are sensible but there's no need to pretend it isn't what it is. ------------- Once you relinquish your freedom for the sake of "understood necessity,"...you cede your claim to the truth. - Heda Margolius Kovaly |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 14:40
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 01:43
And I openly challenge you to tell me why are the muslims fighting for being included as BC & OBC if Islam doesn't have a caste system. And also challenge you to tell me why Shias & sunnis are not allowed in each others mosques so often. Got more challenges to give, But friend, first you need to answer my question as to how you claim to know more about the original tipu then the original tipu himself. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 02:29
shia and sunni .. not a caste.. try to be more relevant
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 02:40
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A caste is about a division, so is Shia & Sunni. they are segregated. In my hometown there are riots between the two all the times & Hindus have to be appointed as mediators between the two. Also did you read the sample list of muslim castes I had provided in earlier. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 02:48
The Indian government gives reservations to the so called underdeveloped castes, legally. The muslims & christians are crying that notwithstanding there religion they are also discriminated against in their own religions, so their caste system should also be made legal. Infact they are right in demanding this, because they have suffered for sonm long & they deserve this. But the upper castes muslims are denying them this right. they say that muhammedanism does not recognise castes, so they muslim castes should not be legally recognised, as it would be unislamic. But then they continue to oppress the poor muslim lower castes & don't give them equality. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 05:38
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to vivek... try to make some research... wht are the definition of caste and mazhab... from there u can see the diff and it cant be used similarly (i wish)... rather thn make ur own sentiment between these two words..
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 06:31
That subject is for the other thread. Keep this thread for this subject. ------------- |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 06:34
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I am extremely doubtful of the existance of a muslim caste system. When
I started the thread I had in mind the existance of muslims that still
consider themselves Rajput or Brahmin or something. A caste system
independent of the hindu one is extremely unlikely in my opinion. There
is of course classism, but this is based on wealth and education.
------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 06:37
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Well than waiting for answers on this thread. I was still thinking it's one big empire. AE I mean.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 20:05
Come on this topic has been done to death in multiple threads here. There is a large amount of pakistanis who claim "mughal" descent and it is only done to put themselves on a higher social standing than the rest of pakistan. You see countless pakistanis claiming Iranian, Afghan/pathan, Arab and even Turkish heritage. Nobody would do that unless it made them feel better or be treated better because of it. And I am not really saying this is supposed to be a part of Islam but considering it is part of Pakistan it is by extension a part of Islam from an outsider's point of view. Hindus are supposed to have a caste system and they do have a strict and open one. Muslims are not supposed to have a caste system but they 1) Created new castes and 2) Subtly follow older castisms left from pre-Islamic cultures from which they converted in various parts of the world. |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 21:57
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Maqsad..Pathan, Arab, Turk, Mughal, are all ethnicities, not castes. Pakistan does not have a caste system, it does have a class system like other countries. Some subcontinentals might claim to be Arab or Mughal or whatever (I really dont know, I havent come across that many), but the important point is in the eyes of the Pakistani law, none of these ethnic groups is recognized as above the other. It might be true that individuals have their own preferences (again I think you've spent too much time on some of the forums mentioned in the other thread), but each person thinks themselves superior to the other group generally. It's no different to one ethnic group thinking they're superior to another in another country. This is not a caste system though..and how can it be if people can pick and choose which ethnic group they are? Generally you get poor people, rich people in every ethnic group in Pakistan, be they Punjabi, Arab, Mughal, Pathan or whatever, and there is no specific job or career each one is destined to do..which makes it very different from a social caste system as the subcontinent knows it. The "purity" of an individual is not determined by which ethnic group they belong to. The occupational status of Pakistanis is also not based on ethnic groupings. These are what forms a caste system. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 01:56
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All these castes existed in the whole of India, including the so called old pakistan also. Omar you are right, this is because of the hindu influence. Outsiders point to the caste differences & claim fidderentiation, Doesn,t this exist in every society in the world. In my home town the fighting between the sunnis & shias is so intense that Hindus have to be called to guard the tazias as unbiased outsiders. The other communities claim superiority on different lines colour (black vs white), turk, arab, mughal etc.. vs the locals, invaders vs the natives etc.. one tribe vs the other. In india we don't have that haphazard system, Indians organised that in a formal manner & legitimised it. And all the Indians who were converted to other religions, muslims & christians followed that system & continue to do so. It may be very surprising but even Indian Jews have become a part of this caste hierarchy. If anybody claims that his community doesn't differentiate on the basis of birth, he would be plainly lying. The poor & low caste, untouchable muslims in India are fighting for the legal recognition of this caste system in India but sadly, are not able to do so due to the opposition & continued oppression form the Muslim uppercastes. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 07:35
Caste does not exist in Pakistan and if you look at history it never once did exist in Pakistan because it is an invention of the East and central Indians.
Name the other societies in the world that have a caste system and why they are caste systems.
This is sectarian violence, not castism. Sunnis and Shias can have the same jobs, the same social status.
EVERY community claims superiority, that's the difference. A Pathan considers himself superior to the others, a Balochi then considers himself superior to a Pathan, this is the difference between the Shudras who have been brought up to believe they are impure, and the other castes in India that all consider them to be inferior and impure. You can hopefully see what I'm pointing towards here.
To an extent this is true of some Muslim Indians - but they are surrounded by castism so it is not surprising they follow it to some degree.
In Pakistan you can grow up in a poor family, and become the richest man there. You can change your social status in other words.
LOL!! The poor Muslims want to be discriminated against is what you say  ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Vedam
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 08:29
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I don't believe in the caste system, and caste atrocities are truely disgusting but TeldeInduz to say that the caste does not exist in Pakistan, and exists amongst muslims only in India is simply not true. You need to read current affairs more. There was a recent case in September of Gazala Shaheen, a graduate from near Multan who was raped because "her Uncle was seen with someone of a higher caste." The police said there are hundreds of cases like this in Southern punjab.
Also not every Brahmin in India is "sly" as someone seemed to imply, it may interest you to know that Iqbal the Poet/philosopher who thought up the notion of a muslim state came from Brahmin stock. His grandfather Sahaj Ram Sapru was a Kashmiri Pandit.
TeldeInduz you make me laugh with your "ancient Pakistanis" and the way you want to seperate Pakistan completely from India as we don't have a shared history, if anyone went by what you are saying they would think that Pakistan was 2000 miles away from India not on its border.
Tell me are the "ancient Pakistanis" related to the ancient Americans and Austrailians, is there also an ancient Islamabad
 |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 10:03
This is just false. These are NOT castes..these are family names. I don't know of this case, but I had a quick look and it seems that they're referring to "Bhattis" and "Miralis". These are NOT castes. If you don't believe me look at politicians, judges, lawyers, doctors in Pakistan. The "low caste Bhatti" occupies positions of power in all of these jobs. Here is the Rawalpindi chief judge..note he is clearly not lower caste.
9. Rawalpindi and Capital Teritory Islamabad http://www.dcomoh.gov.pk/courts/ - http://www.dcomoh.gov.pk/courts/
That is right, there is not really much shared history, perhaps just something like the last couple of centuries worth. This is changing as Pakistan develops its own identity. An example is cricket. Now cricket was introduced into British India by the British, and both Pakistan and India became great cricketing nations because they were under the influence of the same foreign influence. Now, as Pakistan develops its own identity, had you find football (only played in Balochistan during recent times) becoming hugely popular in Pakistan so much so that international football associations are investing into there. India does not have the same passion for football. If you looked back to the times of the Archemid Empire, you would have found there was a lot of Persian influence on Pakistan, but that faded, and in time the Indian influence will too.
Pakistan has Persian, Arab, British and Indian influences. In fact right across the globe people have influenced Pakistan due to its position on the Silk route, and its geostrategic position. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 02:53
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 09:31
No no, nowhere in the RigVeda does it mention about castes. After the Aryans moved from Pakistan to India in about 1000-500 BC, the castes were created by the Gangetic Indians in 100 BC by Manu and written down in the Dharma Shustra. If you can find one quote from the RigVeda that mentions castism in any form then I'd accept what you say. Fact is these castes were created from the Ganges and Hinduism in its current shape spread from that area. I dont think it ever reached Pakistan as stated in the Mahabhata.
Class differences do exist in Pak. Also it is not feudal anymore. The last feudal place that was being supported from the outside has now gone with the elimination of the sardars.
Sects are a form of differentiation. The difference between sects and castism is that one sect is brought up to believe that they are superior to the other sect. A caste system is a form of social stratification where each caste has a different social rank in society. People cannot move from one caste to another, but people can become shia or become sunni from other sects. These are some basic differences between the two. I can't really comment on the shia/sunni fighting, all I know is that in Pak there is very little of it. There's more Dalit violence in India or if you want sect type violence which is more accurate, Hindu-Muslim violence in India.
True, so everyone thinks everyone is unholy, just like the Hindus think the Muslims are. This is not a caste system though.
The caste system never made its way into the ancient Pakistan area. Unless Mahabharata is wrong, and Manu travelled from the Ganges to the Indus, converted all the Kushans from Buddhism to Hinduism and then went back.
The feudal system is reported by many organizations to be all over India. Example here http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2006/1459/ - http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2006/1459/
Pakistan did have a feudal system (sardari) in Balochistan supported probably by India, but now it's gone.
Alright, so they are not doing it because they want a caste system of discrimination against them, they're doing it so that they can get the benefits which are denied to them by the government. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Tipu Sultan
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 12:19
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And I openly challenge you to tell me why are the muslims fighting
for being included as BC & OBC if Islam doesn't have a caste system. And also challenge you to tell me why Shias & sunnis are not allowed in each others mosques so often. Got more challenges to give, But friend, first you need to answer my question as to how you claim to know more about the original tipu then the original tipu himself. i accept the challenge pal,yes you ar right muslims are fighting to get reservation in obc and bc and thats stands for other backward class and back ward class. it is to do with class and not with caste.today i am may be poor but tomorrow i am become rich.class is mobile but caste is rigid and immobile. now shias and sunnis is not caste system it is like the catholics and protestants. amd i know more about tipu than you because he is a muslim and even i am a muslim.he was against caste sustem even i am against caste system. he supported the untouchables even i support the untouchables.i dont see why they must not get reservation of 33% in medical colleges and IIM's. down with brahminism.long live india and indians  |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 13:06
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Ok while class and caste and sect might not mean the exact same semantically they are similar enough to be considered one and the same thing when you look at things in broad perspective over a long timeline. So to a great extent caste = class = sect. |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 14:24
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No, A moth will never become a butterfly. ------------- |
Posted By: Tipu Sultan
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 20:57
| yes class is mobile like it depends on wealth while caste is immobile and depends on your birth. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 04:01
Not quite true. Feudalism is alive and strong in the non-tribal regions of Pakistan. It is less strong, but still there in India. ------------- |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 12:36
I've spoken to people with all sorts of views on this. I don't think you can call places in Pakistan feudal as such (and I would say also India in reality). The only place where there was a feudal lord generating his own private Army through land ownership was in Dera Bugti. I havent seen other places in Pakistan that operate like this. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 18:31
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Zamidars probably would maintain a fair few guards, but probably unlikely anything that could be considered an army. When I was living in Karachi a house up the street from us had 16 guards, 8 day 8 night, all armed with automatic shotguns and rifles. I was thinking more on the lines of a rich zamidar owning land with peasants working on it. It used to be the case that the zamidar would hold all the peasants ID cards, although this may (or may not) have changed when Musharaf re-issued all the cards. ------------- |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 20:01
I totally agree that some Pakistani landlords (you call them zamindars), own a lot of land and employ peasants to work for them. It's a matter of definition then. I would say this isnt feudalism, it's more landlordism perhaps. This isnt unlike someone owning lots of land/property in the West. Feudal I think is more like the case in Afghanistan with private landlords with big armies stronger than the central government. Balochi sardarism was similar to this. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: AP Singh
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 01:59
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Id Mubarak to all Muslim brothers.
AP Singh |
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 06:49
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Reply to Sri. Jayesks.
"No, Christian denominations are more analagous to things like differences between Vaishnavs and Shaivites etc. It's not a vertical stratification of groups by any means.
The UN Apartheid study group reported in early 60s, that Apartheid has been the inspiration from the biblical concept of "the servant of servant should be servant for ever" and "the hewers of wood and drawers of water" etc. The Dutch Reformed Church has three churches:
1. for whites.
2. for coloured and
3. for blacks.
We heathen / kafir Indians do not know as to such division has been vertical or horizontal.
Here, right in Tamilnadu, the Christrians and Muslims do not change. There has been reports many times about the prohibition of women in mosques. Definitely, their caste system has been more "theological" than the "converted" theology or God. Perhaps, the imposed theology has hardened them psychologically.
The Caste system has its merits and its origins are sensible but there's no need to pretend it isn't what it is".
Nothing is mentioned about it (pretending). I have given the examples based on the judgement and books written by the Muslims themseves.
Where the social stratification is not there in this world?
Kindly give examples.
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Posted By: RajputGirl
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 03:18
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Pakistani Muslims claiming to be Rajput, Brahmin, Khatri and Jatt seriously impede their "We're not like Indian Hindus" campaign.
Don't claim descent from Indian Hindu sects and then spew TeldeInduz's jargon unless you want to look like a complete idiot.
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 11:21
I dont' claim descent from Indian Hindu sects. I don't believe I ever have done..And Pakistanis claiming to be Jatt has nothing to do with castes. Castes are Brahmin, Kshatriyas, Untouchables and one other. Jatt is not a caste, so I dont know why you have mixed ethnicities up with castes. Also I dont know why a Jatt is derived from an Indian Hindu sect. Jatt has nothing to do with Hinduism, it's just a word given to Pakistani/Indian ethnic groups. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 21:12
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Again the ignorant, knowledge challenged, rabble rousing due to the inferiority complex. Do some homework & find out what caste is. At least you will not look like a intellect-challenged person in an intellectual topic. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 03:28
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Incidentally, I would like to ask one question:
According to Mamueller and others, the Vedic Aryans created caste / Varna system.
If that is the case, wherever, Aryans went, there should have been / should be such stratification.
Then , how is that only in India "caste" is talked about?
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 04:03
Their is a caste system everywhere. the non Indian caste systems are much more harmful than the Indian ones. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 05:48
You are right, or he's right. The Vedic Aryans that left Pakistan and settled or ruled in the Gangetic plains created the caste system to seperate them off from the locals. This caste system was based on colour of the individuals, but this was after they had left Pakistan which is why the caste system is not present in Pakistan now, I suppose. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 14:26
Take the example of the British. Not everywhere the British went did a South African segregated state emerge. In other places the racial & class divide was much smaller, in others there was much less. The formation of divides between communites is quite complicated, the structure will not appear in all places just because the same people went there.
Not really, the caste system was present amoungst the people of pakistan between now and then ------------- |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 15:22
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Omar, ^ if you have a reference for caste system being present in Pakistan at any point in its history, I'd like to see it. I'm not referring to ethnicity of course here, just a philosophy accepted in Pakistan by everyone, that one group of people was superior to other groups. i.e Similar to the accepted philosophy in India (at least in the Hindu groups) that the Brahmins are superior, the Kshatriyas are below them etc.. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 18:29
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Hindus have been living in the pakistan region for thousands of years, they'll have the caste system. Just because Buddhists and Muslims don't have one doesn't mean that pakistan has never had one. ------------- |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 20:03
A small proportion of Hindus have lived in Pakistan and are living in Pakistan currently for the last couple of millenia. This though is a small part of the population, that adhere to a caste system, the majority of Pakistanis do not have one. Historically, I don't agree that Pakistan had any substantial Hindu presence (in the present Hindu form), the majority were either Buddhist or followers of Vedism which didnt have a caste system. I have not seen any evidence that Pakistan land had any caste system in its history. That's one of the cultural differences between India and Pakistan today.
This quote from a Greek researcher more or less sums it up..Vedic or "Hindu" Pakistanis ate beef, got drunk and didnt have a caste system.
"The outstanding characteristics of this early Aryan society was its basic difference from the later Hinduism. Cows were not worshipped but eaten. Intoxicating spirits were not forsaken but joyously consumed. There were classes but no castes, and the priests were subordinate to the nobles rather than at the top of the social pyramid. In short, Aryan society resembled much more the contemporary Indo-European societies than it did Hinduism that was to develop in later centuries in the Gangetic Valley."
Another quote from an aptly named Dr Singh
"Both early RigVedic and gangetic Puranic sources clearly point to ethnic, cultural and religious differences and a 'clash of civilizations and nations' at the ganga indicating that the Vedic people and culture of the northwest did not accept the gangetic priests, their gods, shastras, religion, culture and Brahmanical caste ideology. The eastern gangetic heartland is not only historically a separate region, but geographically resides over 1500 miles to the southeast of the Saptha Sindhva country. Uptil the advent of Mohammed Ghori in the 13th century, the northwest was politically unified with southasia only 92 years under the Mauryas (out of 27 centuries) since the start of Saptha Sindhva’s Vedic period (1500 BC).
Pakistan (or at least Sindh) does have many Dalits that stayed back after Partition. The excuse given was that they could not move to India being too poor, but at the time of Partition prospects were much better for Dalits in Pakistan than India. The vision Jinnah had was for Dalits to be occupying government positions (only a couple now do, though when Pakistan formed Dalits were given more senior roles). ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 21:07
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Yes the vision of Jajiya, forced conversions like etc... Pakistan was not even able to accept the basis of its partiotion that it was the nation for indian muslims & called them refugees. It is only due to the old Indian heritage that it can claim what it claims.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: CHAUDRY
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 04:50
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Remember the white bannner in the pakistani flag?
It stands for the minorieties in pakistan, religious minorities.
If pakistani mussalman, or their predecessors in india (which ruled it for more then over 1000 years) wanted to force anybody, there would not have been much india left. ------------- no comment |
Posted By: ashokharsana
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 06:41
Hey Brother....Where do u stay ..Not at least in Pakistan for sure....
Pakistan's 70% poulation is divided in more than 1000 castes....Like hindus they have brahmins, Jats, gujars, rajputs, arains. They also have muslim subcastes as maulavis, pathans, Moghals, shiehk, saiyyeds and Qureshis (related to Prophet Mohammed's, MPBUH) etc...
Rest of Pakistani population is also divided on ethnic and regional basis (baluchi, swati, sindhi etc...)
And the most importent thing....Like we Hindus have brahmins as the high held caste.....Muslims also have people with Arabic origin as the highest place holders (specially the qahtenites) in caste hierachy, Their hands are kissed when people meet them and they are considered to be holy as compared to a mulsim from Indian or paksitani origin....
Please tell me If i am not correct ...?
Regards
Ashok Harsana ------------- The Real Ranas, The Real Emperors of India. http://ashokharsana.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=gurjars |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 07:52
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Look, for the last time, Pathan is not a caste. Pathan is an ethnic group. The only castes using the proper definition of the word are social ones and these are only Brahmin (top), Kshatriya (middle), untouchable (lowest). Jatt is not a caste, it is an ethnic group like Pathan. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 16:10
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Interesting info telde. I think there may be some truth to it, but not to the extent that the caste system didn't exist. Influence from the Gangietic valley will have definitely introduced this into the indus valley. Pathans & Baluchis have never had castes, but in Sindh and Punjab I still think there was.
I don't agree with these muslim castes. For the simple reason that one of the important factors about a caste is that they don't intermarry, and I would fall into multiple categories (mughali, syed, quraeshi) (+most people who call themselves Quraeshi in Pakistan & India have no relation to the Quraeshi tribe, they took the name when they converted) ------------- |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 18:18
Though Islam and Chistianity do not have religously codifed caste systems, the Christian concept of "In Christ there is neither slave nor free" and the Islamic equivelant have not been practiced.
What Asok is illustrating is that Pakistan has a "De facto" caste system that is based on ethnicity, sect membership, skin color, warrior status, family status and descent from the Prophet Mohammed. Membership in many of these "quasi castes" is inherited and intermarriage is discouraged. Then factor is differing educational oppurtunities. Changing "quasi castes" is difficult. In the USA we too had (have) "quasi castes" based on many of these factors .
Though there is a huge academic / religous difference between the religously codified castes of Hinduism and casteless (in theory) Christianity and Islam, to the "man on the ground" (sometimes literally), there can be very little diference.
Yes, castes systems exist everywherte, but not all non Indian caste systems are less harmful that the Indian one.
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Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 23:15
| Cryptic is correct, people just use religion as a fig leaf to cover up how they really do things behind the scenes. A pig with lipstic look a lot different but in reality it is still just another pig. |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2006 at 07:48
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Maqsad, cryptic, plz look up what caste means..it has to do with social status..no ethnic group in Pakistan is deprived. Pathans have ruled, Punjabis have ruled, Balochis have had positions of high office, as have Sindhis. Muhajirs control Karachi.
If there was the slightest caste system in Pakistan, none of these ethnic groups would have achieved their status. Pakistan does have a class system though like in the West..and historically Punjabis and Sindhis were the Vedic civilization mentioned above, so I don't think they had a caste system like anyone else in Pakistan historically.
Now class systems are a different matter, and in this Pakistan definitely does have super rich and super poor. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 07:20
Perhaps I am transferring the former U.S. class / quasi caste system to Pakistan. In USA, high social status (money, influence) was almost always linked to ethnically Anglo Saxons of the Episcopelian Protestant group.
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 20:05
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Maqsad what caste are you?
think there is only one contiguous community of hindus that live in Sindh. They may have a caste. Other than that i find the suggesion of a prevalent caste system a bizzare case of extrapolation. It is like saying the saudis mut still have some idol-worship left in them.
Pathans live in a comunity of equals. Caste is a concept that is alien to their society. The division of identity that existed in Punjab post partition was one based on division of labour, but one wasnt bonded to a particular form of labour/employment/profession. Better understood as class. Still this concept of class can not be equated to a 'system'. ------------- |
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 01:07
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The main points to be considered are as follows:
1. It is the question of "Aryans", "Aryanization" etc., based on "racial theory" opposed "Davidians" in India.
2. As "Aryans" have been there (before miscegenation), there should be Varna / caste system - one way or the other, wherever, "Aryans" supposed to invaded / migrated.
3. Like "Dravidians", there should be opposing groups in all those non-Indian areas / nations.
4. If any religion or society has simlar stratification, not necessarily based on colour, but also supported by the religious injunction / theology, it could be existing.
5. Among the Mohammedans / Muslims, the division based on theology are - Sunnis, Shias, Wahabis, Hannabis, Khadhiyanis, etc.
Sayydids, Bohras, leddais, etc., based on social stratificatory factors, tribal groups / divisions.
6. Christians of course take strength from the biblical conceopts of "servant of servant should be servant forever", "the drawers of waters and hewers of wood", etc. A to Z denominations etc.
7. "Caste" is the word, coined / cast by the Portuguese from the word "casta" in Indian context. But, such "caste" has been there in every society, otherwise conceived, perceived and stratified as denominations, ethnicity, ethnos, class, creed, and so on.
8. Thus, sociologists, anthropologists, historians and other scholars deal with these factors differently; theologians approacxh differently; however, politicians enjoys, when all these differe, interpret and theorize variously!
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Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 07:30
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My "caste" is rajput punjabi sunni muslim and before islam it may have been kshatriya who knows, or it could have been one of the other hindu castes or I could have come from outside the region but you all seem to be missing my point entirely, I was not referring to some hidden secretly practiced remnants of the brahmanic caste system in Islam. What I was saying is no matter what relgion, government or social structure a person lives in...human nature tends to lean towards partitioning oneself off due to an "us versus them" metnality. I am saying it is human nature. Look at these two articles I found about the ancient english apartheid caste system in 5th and 6th century England: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5192634.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5192634.stm http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=588&art_id=qw1153228321565B216 - http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=588&art_id=qw1153228321565B216 I even made a thread about the English caste system here, though it hasnt quite 'caught fire' there lol: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16426&KW=&PID=306297#306297 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16426&KW=&PID=306297#306297 |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 12:43
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^Actually you're missing the point Maqsad. A Rajput Punjabi Sunni Muslim is not a caste. A Rajput Punjabi Sunni Muslim can be president of Pakistan (like Bhutto), just as a Pathan can be president of Pakistan (like Yahya Khan). But if you're an untouchable in India, you will never be prime minister of India. This is what the caste system is..a social status. Even in your links you refer to an apartheid system whereby one group of people is SOCIALLY SUPERIOR to another group. This is not the same as ethnic identity where all people are of the same social standing. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 12:53
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Posted in wrong place. Edited. *DELETE* ------------- |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 13:17
Right, but can an ahmadi be president of pakistan? Can he even get credit in his own country for being the only person from a muslim country to win the nobel prize in physics? |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 13:39
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Even Ahmadis do get official recognition in Pakistan (though I will admit they do get some discrimination on account that they are considered heretic). The Nobel Physics Prize winner in fact was made head of SUPARCO and made science advisor to Pakistan's presidents before his move to Italy.
Another famous Ahmdiya is MM (Mirza Muzaffer)f Ahmad, the former chief secretary of Pakistan. So yes, they do not have a fixed social status either within Pakistan. The only people that have a caste system in Pakistan are Hindus, and most of these are Dalits. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 16:53
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My point is old castes were demolished in the paki revolution[islam if you want to call it that]....but due to human nature castism was not eliminated from the human psyche. New castes have been created under different names and guises. Human nature is hard to change. |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 16:55
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There were no castes in Pakistan before Islamic times..Unless you can show some evidence that there was. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 17:14
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Pushing asides the shifts to buddhism in pakistan's history there must also have been periods in Pakistan's pre-islamic history when brahmanic hinduism was the state religion for various city states and the social system for various tribes. Do I really have to prove that? |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 17:30
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"Brahmanical Hinduism" originated in the Ganges, not from Pakistan. If you read the Mahabharata there's proof of this, and depending on when you think it was written, proof that Pakistan did not follow the caste system historically.
The only period left really is between 0AD and 12 AD, and I think yu'd find that this was after the Maurya Period under which a lot of Pakistan became Buddhist. The leftovers were Vedic I assume mixed with some Hindus that converted when Pakistan was ruled by Indian invaders. I have not seen any evidence the society in Pakistan ever used a caste system, just assumptions that if it was ruled by a Hindu king, society must be Hindu. In fact, the society in Pakistan was always hostile to Hindu rule for this very reason.
------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 18:55
| I do not deny that the culture, the personality and the nature of pakistani peoples is against the ruthlessness of the mainstream brahmanic caste system but I do suspect a less vicious form of castism did occur in pakistan. No sources or links but now that it has piqued my curiosity I have made a mental note to be on the lookout. I'm going to see if I can come up with something in the next few days. |
Posted By: M. Nachiappan
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 04:31
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About English "casrte system", I have indirectly inferred as follows:
"Caste" is the word, coined / cast by the Portuguese from the word "casta" in Indian context. But, such "caste" has been there in every society, otherwise conceived, perceived and stratified as denominations, ethnicity, ethnos, class, creed, and so on.
As the word "race" should not be used, I have not used it.
That "caste" form of divide, differentiation, or any such variance, has been there in every society and that is why "certain group of people" are treated by "other group" differently in social interactions, gatherings and other occassions.
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Posted By: sayak
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 12:08
an untouchable can easily be the prime minister. most of the politics in india is caste based. in north india parties representing lower castes like samajwadi or bahujansamajwadi party have considerable power. congress is strongest in south india and hence the majority of its elected members come from lower classes: indeed most parties of southern india are so. only 20% of india is upper caste-do not think this fact is not reflected in the indian parliament.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 12:28
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There caste system in pakistan in not the same as in india.
In india it is a part of hindu religion.The correct way to desribe the caste system in pakistan would be the clan system.
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 12:07
LOL!! That was a funny one   Untouchables can be prime minister of India and leaders.. Oh really. Can you name one untouchable prime minister or president of India, you can use the entire history of the country if you like. India's parliament is predominantly upper caste and does not reflect the 20% upper caste or however much in Indian society. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: sayak
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 21:35
| deve gowda? |
Posted By: AP Singh
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 02:20
| There is no untouchable in the present day India and hence there is no question of untouchable becoming prime minister of India. This social evil was put to death by Mahatma Gandhi forever a long back. |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 03:34
How is Deve Gowada an Untouchable when his family were all farmers. The Untouchables are barely allowed to handle the faeces of the upper castes let alone their food.
------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |