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Vivek Sharma
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Topic: Muslims and the Caste System Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 01:56 |
All these castes existed in the whole of India, including the so called old pakistan also. Omar you are right, this is because of the hindu influence.
Outsiders point to the caste differences & claim fidderentiation, Doesn,t this exist in every society in the world.
In my home town the fighting between the sunnis & shias is so intense that Hindus have to be called to guard the tazias as unbiased outsiders.
The other communities claim superiority on different lines colour (black vs white), turk, arab, mughal etc.. vs the locals, invaders vs the natives etc.. one tribe vs the other.
In india we don't have that haphazard system, Indians organised that in a formal manner & legitimised it.
And all the Indians who were converted to other religions, muslims & christians followed that system & continue to do so.
It may be very surprising but even Indian Jews have become a part of this caste hierarchy.
If anybody claims that his community doesn't differentiate on the basis of birth, he would be plainly lying.
The poor & low caste, untouchable muslims in India are fighting for the legal recognition of this caste system in India but sadly, are not able to do so due to the opposition & continued oppression form the Muslim uppercastes.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 07:35 |
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
All these castes existed in the whole of India, including the so called old pakistan also. Omar you are right, this is because of the hindu influence.
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Caste does not exist in Pakistan and if you look at history it never once did exist in Pakistan because it is an invention of the East and central Indians.
Outsiders point to the caste differences & claim fidderentiation, Doesn,t this exist in every society in the world.
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Name the other societies in the world that have a caste system and why they are caste systems.
In my home town the fighting between the sunnis & shias is so intense that Hindus have to be called to guard the tazias as unbiased outsiders.
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This is sectarian violence, not castism. Sunnis and Shias can have the same jobs, the same social status.
The other communities claim superiority on different lines colour (black vs white), turk, arab, mughal etc.. vs the locals, invaders vs the natives etc.. one tribe vs the other.
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EVERY community claims superiority, that's the difference. A Pathan considers himself superior to the others, a Balochi then considers himself superior to a Pathan, this is the difference between the Shudras who have been brought up to believe they are impure, and the other castes in India that all consider them to be inferior and impure. You can hopefully see what I'm pointing towards here.
In india we don't have that haphazard system, Indians organised that in a formal manner & legitimised it.
And all the Indians who were converted to other religions, muslims & christians followed that system & continue to do so.
It may be very surprising but even Indian Jews have become a part of this caste hierarchy.
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To an extent this is true of some Muslim Indians - but they are surrounded by castism so it is not surprising they follow it to some degree.
If anybody claims that his community doesn't differentiate on the basis of birth, he would be plainly lying.
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In Pakistan you can grow up in a poor family, and become the richest man there. You can change your social status in other words.
The poor & low caste, untouchable muslims in India are fighting for the legal recognition of this caste system in India but sadly, are not able to do so due to the opposition & continued oppression form the Muslim uppercastes.
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LOL!! The poor Muslims want to be discriminated against is what you say
Edited by TeldeInduz - 12-Oct-2006 at 07:36
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Vedam
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Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 08:29 |
I don't believe in the caste system, and caste atrocities are truely disgusting but TeldeInduz to say that the caste does not exist in Pakistan, and exists amongst muslims only in India is simply not true. You need to read current affairs more. There was a recent case in September of Gazala Shaheen, a graduate from near Multan who was raped because "her Uncle was seen with someone of a higher caste." The police said there are hundreds of cases like this in Southern punjab.
Also not every Brahmin in India is "sly" as someone seemed to imply, it may interest you to know that Iqbal the Poet/philosopher who thought up the notion of a muslim state came from Brahmin stock. His grandfather Sahaj Ram Sapru was a Kashmiri Pandit.
TeldeInduz you make me laugh with your "ancient Pakistanis" and the way you want to seperate Pakistan completely from India as we don't have a shared history, if anyone went by what you are saying they would think that Pakistan was 2000 miles away from India not on its border.
Tell me are the "ancient Pakistanis" related to the ancient Americans and Austrailians, is there also an ancient Islamabad
Edited by Vedam - 12-Oct-2006 at 08:40
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 10:03 |
Originally posted by Vedam
I don't believe in the caste system, and caste atrocities are truely disgusting but TeldeInduz to say that the caste does not exist in Pakistan, and exists amongst muslims only in India is simply not true. You need to read current affairs more. There was a recent case in September of Gazala Shaheen, a graduate from near Multan who was raped because "her Uncle was seen with someone of a higher caste." The police said there are hundreds of cases like this in Southern punjab. |
This is just false. These are NOT castes..these are family names. I don't know of this case, but I had a quick look and it seems that they're referring to "Bhattis" and "Miralis". These are NOT castes. If you don't believe me look at politicians, judges, lawyers, doctors in Pakistan. The "low caste Bhatti" occupies positions of power in all of these jobs. Here is the Rawalpindi chief judge..note he is clearly not lower caste.
9. Rawalpindi and Capital Teritory Islamabad Mr. Muhammad Ashraf Bhatti District and Session Judge Chairman, Drug Court Rawalpindi and Capital Teritory Islamabad.
TeldeInduz you make me laugh with your "ancient Pakistanis" and the way you want to seperate Pakistan completely from India as we don't have a shared history
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That is right, there is not really much shared history, perhaps just something like the last couple of centuries worth. This is changing as Pakistan develops its own identity. An example is cricket. Now cricket was introduced into British India by the British, and both Pakistan and India became great cricketing nations because they were under the influence of the same foreign influence. Now, as Pakistan develops its own identity, had you find football (only played in Balochistan during recent times) becoming hugely popular in Pakistan so much so that international football associations are investing into there. India does not have the same passion for football. If you looked back to the times of the Archemid Empire, you would have found there was a lot of Persian influence on Pakistan, but that faded, and in time the Indian influence will too.
, if anyone went by what you are saying they would think that Pakistan was 2000 miles away from India not on its border.
Tell me are the "ancient Pakistanis" related to the ancient Americans and Austrailians, is there also an ancient Islamabad |
Pakistan has Persian, Arab, British and Indian influences. In fact right across the globe people have influenced Pakistan due to its position on the Silk route, and its geostrategic position.
Edited by TeldeInduz - 12-Oct-2006 at 10:13
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 02:53 |
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
All these castes existed in the whole of India, including the so called old pakistan also. Omar you are right, this is because of the hindu influence.
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Caste does not exist in Pakistan and if you look at history it never once did exist in Pakistan because it is an invention of the East and central Indians.
Caste does exist in Pakistan, It always existed, it was an invention of the Pakistanis.
Outsiders point to the caste differences & claim fidderentiation, Doesn,t this exist in every society in the world.
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Name the other societies in the world that have a caste system and why they are caste systems.
Differentiation exists in every society in the world & is maximum in the still feudal pakistan.
In my home town the fighting between the sunnis & shias is so intense that Hindus have to be called to guard the tazias as unbiased outsiders.
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This is sectarian violence, not castism. Sunnis and Shias can have the same jobs, the same social status.
Sectarian is alos a form of differentiation, More blood has been shed by the shias & sunnis fighting each other than any other sect.
The other communities claim superiority on different lines colour (black vs white), turk, arab, mughal etc.. vs the locals, invaders vs the natives etc.. one tribe vs the other.
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EVERY community claims superiority, that's the difference. A Pathan considers himself superior to the others, a Balochi then considers himself superior to a Pathan, this is the difference between the Shudras who have been brought up to believe they are impure, and the other castes in India that all consider them to be inferior and impure. You can hopefully see what I'm pointing towards here.
You are right telde friend, Yes I can see the difference, the Shias are brought up in beliving that the sunnies are unholy & the Sunnis are brought up believeing that everybody else in unholy.
In india we don't have that haphazard system, Indians organised that in a formal manner & legitimised it.
And all the Indians who were converted to other religions, muslims & christians followed that system & continue to do so.
It may be very surprising but even Indian Jews have become a part of this caste hierarchy.
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To an extent this is true of some Muslim Indians - but they are surrounded by castism so it is not surprising they follow it to some degree.
You are right again telde friend, this is true of the historical Indian Muslims, which includes the so claled Pakistani muslims
If anybody claims that his community doesn't differentiate on the basis of birth, he would be plainly lying.
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In Pakistan you can grow up in a poor family, and become the richest man there. You can change your social status in other words.
It's the same here, in fact better, for we don't have the feudal system in place here as in pakistan.
The poor & low caste, untouchable muslims in India are fighting for the legal recognition of this caste system in India but sadly, are not able to do so due to the opposition & continued oppression form the Muslim uppercastes.
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LOL!! The poor Muslims want to be discriminated against is what you say
LOL LOL. The lower caste, untouchable muslims who face severe discrimination form the hands of their upper caste muslims desperetly want them to accept the fact that they are being discriminated, for it would lead to them getting equal rights, but the hypocritical uppercaste muslims who dominate all their media, social hierarchy etc.. simply refuse to grant them what they so rightfully want.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 09:31 |
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
All these castes existed in the whole of India, including the so called old pakistan also. Omar you are right, this is because of the hindu influence. |
Caste does not exist in Pakistan and if you look at history it never once did exist in Pakistan because it is an invention of the East and central Indians. |
Caste does exist in Pakistan, It always existed, it was an invention of the Pakistanis. |
No no, nowhere in the RigVeda does it mention about castes. After the Aryans moved from Pakistan to India in about 1000-500 BC, the castes were created by the Gangetic Indians in 100 BC by Manu and written down in the Dharma Shustra. If you can find one quote from the RigVeda that mentions castism in any form then I'd accept what you say. Fact is these castes were created from the Ganges and Hinduism in its current shape spread from that area. I dont think it ever reached Pakistan as stated in the Mahabhata.
Differentiation exists in every society in the world & is maximum in the still feudal pakistan.
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Class differences do exist in Pak. Also it is not feudal anymore. The last feudal place that was being supported from the outside has now gone with the elimination of the sardars.
Sectarian is alos a form of differentiation, More blood has been shed by the shias & sunnis fighting each other than any other sect
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Sects are a form of differentiation. The difference between sects and castism is that one sect is brought up to believe that they are superior to the other sect. A caste system is a form of social stratification where each caste has a different social rank in society. People cannot move from one caste to another, but people can become shia or become sunni from other sects. These are some basic differences between the two. I can't really comment on the shia/sunni fighting, all I know is that in Pak there is very little of it. There's more Dalit violence in India or if you want sect type violence which is more accurate, Hindu-Muslim violence in India.
You are right telde friend, Yes I can see the difference, the Shias are brought up in beliving that the sunnies are unholy & the Sunnis are brought up believeing that everybody else in unholy.
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True, so everyone thinks everyone is unholy, just like the Hindus think the Muslims are. This is not a caste system though.
You are right again telde friend, this is true of the historical Indian Muslims, which includes the so claled Pakistani muslims
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The caste system never made its way into the ancient Pakistan area. Unless Mahabharata is wrong, and Manu travelled from the Ganges to the Indus, converted all the Kushans from Buddhism to Hinduism and then went back.
It's the same here, in fact better, for we don't have the feudal system in place here as in pakistan.
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The feudal system is reported by many organizations to be all over India. Example here
Pakistan did have a feudal system (sardari) in Balochistan supported probably by India, but now it's gone.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Tipu Sultan
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Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 12:19 |
And I openly challenge you to tell me why are the muslims fighting
for being included as BC & OBC if Islam doesn't have a caste system.
And also challenge you to tell me why Shias & sunnis are not allowed in each others mosques so often.
Got
more challenges to give, But friend, first you need to answer my
question as to how you claim to know more about the original tipu then
the original tipu himself.
i accept the challenge pal,yes you ar right muslims are fighting to get reservation in obc and bc and thats stands for other backward class and back ward class. it is to do with class and not with caste.today i am may be poor but tomorrow i am become rich.class is mobile but caste is rigid and immobile.
now shias and sunnis is not caste system it is like the catholics and protestants.
amd i know more about tipu than you because he is a muslim and even i am a muslim.he was against caste sustem even i am against caste system. he supported the untouchables even i support the untouchables.i dont see why they must not get reservation of 33% in medical colleges and IIM's. down with brahminism.long live india and indians
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maqsad
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Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 13:06 |
Ok while class and caste and sect might not mean the exact same semantically they are similar enough to be considered one and the same thing when you look at things in broad perspective over a long timeline.
So to a great extent caste = class = sect.
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malizai_
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Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 14:24 |
No, A moth will never become a butterfly.
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Tipu Sultan
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Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 20:57 |
yes class is mobile like it depends on wealth while caste is immobile and depends on your birth.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 04:01 |
Originally posted by Telde
Class differences do exist in Pak. Also it is not feudal
anymore. The last feudal place that was being supported from the
outside has now gone with the elimination of the sardars. |
Not quite true. Feudalism is alive and strong in the non-tribal regions of Pakistan. It is less strong, but still there in India.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 12:36 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by Telde
Class differences do exist in Pak. Also it is not feudal anymore. The last feudal place that was being supported from the outside has now gone with the elimination of the sardars. |
Not quite true. Feudalism is alive and strong in the non-tribal regions of Pakistan. It is less strong, but still there in India.
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I've spoken to people with all sorts of views on this. I don't think you can call places in Pakistan feudal as such (and I would say also India in reality). The only place where there was a feudal lord generating his own private Army through land ownership was in Dera Bugti. I havent seen other places in Pakistan that operate like this.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 18:31 |
Zamidars probably would maintain a fair few guards, but probably unlikely anything that could be considered an army. When I was living in Karachi a house up the street from us had 16 guards, 8 day 8 night, all armed with automatic shotguns and rifles.
I was thinking more on the lines of a rich zamidar owning land with peasants working on it. It used to be the case that the zamidar would hold all the peasants ID cards, although this may (or may not) have changed when Musharaf re-issued all the cards.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 20:01 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Zamidars probably would maintain a fair few guards, but probably unlikely anything that could be considered an army. When I was living in Karachi a house up the street from us had 16 guards, 8 day 8 night, all armed with automatic shotguns and rifles.
I was thinking more on the lines of a rich zamidar owning land with peasants working on it. It used to be the case that the zamidar would hold all the peasants ID cards, although this may (or may not) have changed when Musharaf re-issued all the cards.
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I totally agree that some Pakistani landlords (you call them zamindars), own a lot of land and employ peasants to work for them. It's a matter of definition then. I would say this isnt feudalism, it's more landlordism perhaps. This isnt unlike someone owning lots of land/property in the West. Feudal I think is more like the case in Afghanistan with private landlords with big armies stronger than the central government. Balochi sardarism was similar to this.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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AP Singh
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Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 01:59 |
Id Mubarak to all Muslim brothers.
AP Singh
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M. Nachiappan
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Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 06:49 |
Reply to Sri. Jayesks.
"No, Christian denominations are more analagous to things like differences between Vaishnavs and Shaivites etc. It's not a vertical stratification of groups by any means.
The UN Apartheid study group reported in early 60s, that Apartheid has been the inspiration from the biblical concept of "the servant of servant should be servant for ever" and "the hewers of wood and drawers of water" etc.
The Dutch Reformed Church has three churches:
1. for whites.
2. for coloured and
3. for blacks.
We heathen / kafir Indians do not know as to such division has been vertical or horizontal.
Here, right in Tamilnadu, the Christrians and Muslims do not change. There has been reports many times about the prohibition of women in mosques. Definitely, their caste system has been more "theological" than the "converted" theology or God. Perhaps, the imposed theology has hardened them psychologically.
The Caste system has its merits and its origins are sensible but there's no need to pretend it isn't what it is".
Nothing is mentioned about it (pretending). I have given the examples based on the judgement and books written by the Muslims themseves.
Where the social stratification is not there in this world?
Kindly give examples.
Edited by M. Nachiappan - 10-Nov-2006 at 06:54
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RajputGirl
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Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 03:18 |
Pakistani Muslims claiming to be Rajput, Brahmin, Khatri and Jatt seriously impede their "We're not like Indian Hindus" campaign.
Don't claim descent from Indian Hindu sects and then spew TeldeInduz's jargon unless you want to look like a complete idiot.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 11:21 |
Originally posted by RajputGirl
Pakistani Muslims claiming to be Rajput, Brahmin, Khatri and Jatt seriously impede their "We're not like Indian Hindus" campaign.
Don't claim descent from Indian Hindu sects and then spew TeldeInduz's jargon unless you want to look like a complete idiot. |
I dont' claim descent from Indian Hindu sects. I don't believe I ever have done..And Pakistanis claiming to be Jatt has nothing to do with castes. Castes are Brahmin, Kshatriyas, Untouchables and one other. Jatt is not a caste, so I dont know why you have mixed ethnicities up with castes. Also I dont know why a Jatt is derived from an Indian Hindu sect. Jatt has nothing to do with Hinduism, it's just a word given to Pakistani/Indian ethnic groups.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 21:12 |
Again the ignorant, knowledge challenged, rabble rousing due to the inferiority complex.
Do some homework & find out what caste is. At least you will not look like a intellect-challenged person in an intellectual topic.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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M. Nachiappan
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Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 03:28 |
Incidentally, I would like to ask one question:
According to Mamueller and others, the Vedic Aryans created caste / Varna system.
If that is the case, wherever, Aryans went, there should have been / should be such stratification.
Then , how is that only in India "caste" is talked about?
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