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Decebal
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Topic: Racism towards Gypsies Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 19:44 |
This topic is inspired by the recent conversations in the Balkan Beauties thread, where some Bulgarians were completely outraged at Gypsies being considered representative for Bulgaria.
I have a personal viewpoint on this, because I grew up in Romania, the country with the largest gypsy population in the world, and I have to say that along with the vast majority of my fellow Romanians, as a child I was very racist towards gypsies. I used to hate them, and I would get very mad if foreigners would call them Romanians. A long while ago, I emigrated to Canada and since then I became a lot more tolerant towards every culture and tried to eliminate racism from my life and my outlook. Which sooner or later had to include acceptance of the gypsies. Which to my shame, has been slow in coming, even though I no longer feel that I am racist towards anyone else, such as Africans, Asians or the people closest to gypsies, Indians. For myself, they stand alone as a people apart, for some reason that I can't explain.
I just find it hard not to think, when people point out Romanian gypsies who emigrate abroad and take part in organized crime, that "they are not really Romanians, they're just gypsies... what do you expect?" And I've sen this kind of attitude countless times from fellow Romanians or Eastern Europeans in general. I suppose it's been ingrained in us.
I find that their situation in Europe is very similar to that of black people in the US: many of them are caught in a cycle where society marginalizes them, they are unable to get a good education and so turn towards a life of crime, which makes the rest of society marginalize them further. To make the comparison even more accurate, in Romania, many gypsies had the status of slaves until the 19th century.
Do you people think that it is possible for racism towards gypsies to stop and for them to ever be fully integrated in European societies?
Edited by Decebal - 03-Jun-2006 at 19:46
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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Achilles
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Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 20:34 |
Ithink in todays day and age, yes it is possible. people seem to be
more open-minded and compasionate then they were a few years back, but
that is just my view.
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Der Erste hat den Tod,
Der Zweite hat die Not,
Der Dritte erst hat Brot.
Fur immer frei und ungeteilt
-always free and undivided-
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Maharbbal
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Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 20:45 |
Hi,
Congratulation for your fight against the racist inside you!
Maybe you'd be interested to hear the story of the integration of the gypsies (gitanos) into the Spanish society. During the 18th c. they were trully out-casted and very poor as well. The enlighted elite felt only disdain for that backwardish population. Only at one point Napoleon's France invaded the territory, thus what ever was French was poorly regarded by the patriotic Spaniards, including the French dress code they used for decades.
The only clothes that weren't French at all was the gypsises' costume. In less then two years the fashion was overwelmingly worn by every body (see the Goya's paintings). As so, the gypsies found their position within the Spanish society; they are still highly particular but they perfectly fit in the general landscape.
Maybe this will occur in Romania and Eastern Europe.
M.
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DayI
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Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 20:46 |
I saw/heard that first time when there whas a murder accured because of MP3-player in belgium, the murder whas a polish but the polish media and people called him as "not real pole" but a gypsie.
Then last week there whas a "gypsie" debat in my city Gent at vreemdelingencentrum (baargiekaai), i thought it will be interesting because also myself got the feeling from the polish media that gypsies where somewhat the "unwanted people" or "niggers" of europe, yeah so i thought they are somewhat what the "black" people where in USA in the 50's.
So all in all i've been there, they debated about problematics of gypsies in Europe, how they systematically genocided and discriminated by some governments self. I couldnt listen further when a slovak gypsie showed his ID-cart where whas a remark wich meand he whas a gypsie also showed some documents that "skinhead" organisations where covered/protected by the media and the governments self todo freely what they wanted against those "gypsies" without being punished.
But also i want to hear the other part of it, so may i ask Decebal what caused you to hate gypsies? What whas the real reason behind of it?
To answer your question, I think the racism in eastern and western europe will be ended when they learn to accept "other" people as a human being too, they must get over their "inferior complexes" and a good education.
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Paul
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Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 23:31 |
Funny this should come up, yesterday I walked down to the local supermarket, located on an estate of warehouse shops and sure enough in the car park was a load of caravans, junk all over the place, an oil barrel with a fire in it and half a dozen wild kids running riot. Immediately I thought, ohno gypsies, and diverted around the camp.
here's a few interesting links,
BBC News story on Gypsies in Europe
BBC comprehensive history of gypsies site [seriously recommend checking out the photo gallery]
A site tracking the modern day persecution of gypsies in the UK
Britain's most famous gypsy
Edited by Paul - 03-Jun-2006 at 23:37
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Dawn
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 01:24 |
I too never really understood the european hatred of gypsies. Hope someone can help inlighten me. The last discussion I had about them was with the Polish fellow I worked for at the time. It didn't make much sense.
Edited by Dawn - 04-Jun-2006 at 01:25
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Guests
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 03:31 |
Well its pretty obvious decebel why the Gypsies stand out, you grew up around them.
As for your last statement Decebal Black people in the USA can get an education if they want one. Its the exact same as in Australia, the Aboriginals are paid to go to school yet they dont because they dont want an education, most would rather bludge off the goverment.
Probably the same with Canadas natives.
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Digenis
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 04:31 |
I think its a vicious circle.
Gipsies follow a different way of life.This would be normal centuries ago,but it condemns them to poverty. Poverty gives birth to illeteracy , crime and deception. Illeteracy,crime and deception give birth to prejudice,discrimination and racism. Racism assures maintenance of poverty and lack of education for these people. And the circle goes on...
well,i am not sure for the solution. Is it possible these people to be fully respected,educated and not isolated by society but in the same time to preserve their unique culture?
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Giannis
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 06:42 |
Gypsies way of life is a nomadic way of life. How is possible to send your children to school when you are travelling every now and then?
Here in Greece people dislikes gipsies and for another reason, child abuse, every morning that i go to work i see barefooted children begging for some euro, while a grownup can be seen in a nearby car drinking his coffee and ''supervising'' his or hers employes.
I can't say that all gipsies are ''child abusers'', but 9 to 10 child beggars are gipsies.
And this is not a phenomenon of poverty, they are propably the only people that exchanges gold for goods.
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Komnenos
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 08:02 |
There are a numer of parallels between the persecution of the Gypsies in Europe and that of the Jewish people.
Both have been throughout centuries the most identifiable ethnic minority living in Central Europe, and as such been subjected to periods of persecution in periods of social crisis, be it economical, in times of war, or in times of natural disasters, like the plague etc. And then as now, the incapability to explain or to deal with such crisis leads to blaming the most vulnerable parts of society. Both Gypsies and Jewish served as as the target of periodical mass hysteria turned into violence, or later in organised genocides as in Nazi-Germany when up to 800.000 Gypsies were murdered.
But the similarities go further, both people's evident incapability to integrate into existing societies has been a mixture of firstly to attempt to preserve their ethnic and cultural identity, and secondly the refusal of the "host" society to let them integrate.
The often mentioned fact that Jewish people were over represented in the financial sector is of course the result of the a medieval restriction that would not allow Jewish people to take up any other occupation than that of money-lenders or changers. The same with the Gypsies, society only allowed them to do jobs that no one else would do, and that suited their itinerant life-style.
About both people there has been a multitude of rumours, prejudices and out right lies, that have been constantly perpetuated and still are proving to be impossible to eradicate.
As with Jewish people or Homosexuals, a society's or an individual's capacity to show tolerance against an ethnic minorities as the Gypsies is an indicator how far progressed and enlightened they are.
Tito's Yugoslavia's attempt to give its Gypsy population full equal rights amongst the other ethnic groups of the country, and actively supporting and promoting their cultural activities (Newspapers, Radio stations, schools, etc) was certainly a proof that it can and should be done.
That the newly "democratic" countries in SE Europe have taken the relationships between Gypsies and the majority population back to the Middle Ages, is somewhat indicative for the upsurge in nationalism and xenophobia on which their identities are partly built on.
Edited by Komnenos - 04-Jun-2006 at 08:03
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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 08:11 |
Originally posted by DayI
I saw/heard that first time when there whas a murder accured because of MP3-player in belgium, the murder whas a polish but the polish media and people called him as "not real pole" but a gypsie.
Then last week there whas a "gypsie" debat in my city Gent at vreemdelingencentrum (baargiekaai), i thought it will be interesting because also myself got the feeling from the polish media that gypsies where somewhat the "unwanted people" or "niggers" of europe, yeah so i thought they are somewhat what the "black" people where in USA in the 50's.
So all in all i've been there, they debated about problematics of gypsies in Europe, how they systematically genocided and discriminated by some governments self. I couldnt listen further when a slovak gypsie showed his ID-cart where whas a remark wich meand he whas a gypsie also showed some documents that "skinhead" organisations where covered/protected by the media and the governments self todo freely what they wanted against those "gypsies" without being punished.
But also i want to hear the other part of it, so may i ask Decebal what caused you to hate gypsies? What whas the real reason behind of it?
To answer your question, I think the racism in eastern and western europe will be ended when they learn to accept "other" people as a human being too, they must get over their "inferior complexes" and a good education.
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first they tought he was north-african
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 08:13 |
"That the newly "democratic" countries in SE Europe have taken the
relationships between Gypsies and the majority population back to the
Middle Ages, is somewhat indicative for the upsurge in nationalism and
xenophobia on which their identities are partly built on."
you talk about "newly "democratic" countries in SE Europe" just like we talk about gypsies.
very sad, sorry
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Decebal
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 09:13 |
Originally posted by DayI
But also i want to hear the other part of it, so may i ask Decebal what caused you to hate gypsies? What whas the real reason behind of it?
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Growing up over there, I was always told that I should beware of gypsies, that they steal and don't work. I've had some bad experiences with them myself. Many of the bullies in my neighborhood were gypsies, and I have gotten beaten up a couple of times by them, for no better reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or for not having maoney on me when they tried to mug me. I know several people who have gotten pickpocketed by gypsies. Most of the beggars are also gypsies.
Overall, there is this perception, perhaps warranted, that most of the crime in that part of the world is perpetrated by gypsies. They have a serious image problem, and the children of the people from Eastern European countries are taught to mistrust them from early on.
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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Decebal
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 09:17 |
Originally posted by machine
Well its pretty obvious decebel why the Gypsies stand out, you grew up around them.
As for your last statement Decebal Black people in the USA can get an education if they want one. Its the exact same as in Australia, the Aboriginals are paid to go to school yet they dont because they dont want an education, most would rather bludge off the goverment.
Probably the same with Canadas natives.
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Many gypsies in Eastern Europe can get an education too, if they want it. But statements such as "if they want one" miss the point. If the black or gypsy children grow up in abject poverty and if they have to work to support their family from early on, it makes it much harder to stay in school. If when they get out of school, they cannot get a good job because they are discriminated against, then can you really blame them for not thinking that school is worthwile?
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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bg_turk
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 09:43 |
The stereotypes against gypsies being lazy, dirty and that they steal are very common, but let me give you the other side of the coin. I know a few gypsies that are not leading a nomaidc lifestyl but are settled farmers, many of them are kind, educated and respectful, but they are still discriminated because of their skin color. Here is an instance of discrimination against a gypsy woman. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4372689.stm
In March 2003, Mrs Dunkova inquired about a saleswoman's job at a shop in Prague after seeing an advertisement in the window.
On entering the shop, she was told the position was no longer open.
What the shop's manager did not know was that Mrs Dunkova was working with a Czech human rights group.
A few minutes later, a member of the group, this time a
non-Roma woman, inquired about the same job. She was given an interview
immediately.
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Edited by bg_turk - 04-Jun-2006 at 09:44
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 10:20 |
And about discrimination: "he European Court of Justice has criticised Germany for failing to
transpose the EUs Employment Framework Directive (2000/78/EC) on time.
In a recent judgment, the Court found that Germany had failed to create
the proper legal framework for equal treatment on the basis of
religion, disability and sexual orientation. The EU legislation
dating from 2000 should have been introduced into national law in all
EU Member States by December 2003. Germany must now take the necessary
steps to comply with the Directive" http://ec.europa.eu/comm/employment_social/fundamental_rights/news/news_en.htmdiscrimination is everywhere and germany is not better than romania http://www.nzherald.co.nz/location/story.cfm?l_id=8&ObjectID=10126345
Edited by Richard XIII - 04-Jun-2006 at 10:39
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
Albert Einstein
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Achilles
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 12:26 |
when i was a child I was always told stories about how when the Gypsies
would come through the villages in the old country, they would
stealanything and everything that they could get there hands on, even
babies. I am not sure how true this actually is, but at the time i
whole heartedly believed it (becuse it was my greatgrandmother and
grandmother that told me the stories).
I read somewhere that the gypsies of the past (maybe not the present)
had the belief that they were god's chosen people and thus had
the right to take anything that they wanted with no consequences. I'm
not sutre how acurate this is either
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Der Erste hat den Tod,
Der Zweite hat die Not,
Der Dritte erst hat Brot.
Fur immer frei und ungeteilt
-always free and undivided-
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Spartakus
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Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 14:11 |
I do not like people who have still closed societes.
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--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Guests
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Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 01:05 |
Originally posted by Decebal
Originally posted by machine
Well its pretty obvious decebel why the Gypsies stand out, you grew up around them.
As for your last statement Decebal Black people in the USA can get an education if they want one. Its the exact same as in Australia, the Aboriginals are paid to go to school yet they dont because they dont want an education, most would rather bludge off the goverment.
Probably the same with Canadas natives.
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Many gypsies in Eastern Europe can get an education too, if they want it. But statements such as "if they want one" miss the point. If the black or gypsy children grow up in abject poverty and if they have to work to support their family from early on, it makes it much harder to stay in school. If when they get out of school, they cannot get a good job because they are discriminated against, then can you really blame them for not thinking that school is worthwile? |
The Aboriginals dont work, its a rare site. If they dont think school is worth while i couldnt care less. The oppurtunity is there, they get government funding etc and if they dont take it its not my problem.
I also dont think that Aboriginals are as hated as much as Gypsies are, in comparison. I was never taught to hate Aboriginals, i dont hate them its just i dont care what they do, its not my problem if they dont succeed.
Decebal if you had not moved to Canada would you still hate Gypsies???
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 01:31 |
I think the situation between Australian aboriginals and European
gypsies is quite different and the two situations should not be treated
as being on the same level.
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