The reason for antisemtism...

Originally posted by Maharbbal Thnak you Yisahshkhar for your precious comments. Originally posted by Jagiello   I absolutely agree.However,there are other reasons as well.Mostly,in different periods and places there are different reasons(in nazy Germany,in the Middle East,in the medieval times).I beleave the most common reason is the saying "where are 2 Jews soon there will be 5".It means that they allmost do not integrade in other cultures.They allso keep to their culture and religion,which is very good for them,but not for the others.Because of this reason they allays succeed in trade and other jobs,but do not really care for the country they live in.The tread is very big and long and i do not thing it shoud be disscused.  Just to make sure before I overly excited. Are you saying: that is what people thought or are you personally impling that Jews don't integrate? If you're talking about people's belief, I guess you may be wright but please bring us sources. Otherwise, I afraid that you are wrong and simply carrying on anti-semistic preconceptions.

Yes, just about every nation, tribe, and people have suffered injustices at the hands of others, and their plights need to be exposed, their pain deserves to be acknowledged.

But to claim that the "whole sense" of Jewish identity is based on persecution and discrimination is an over-generalization at best. Normal Jewish self-image stems from an understanding of 3,000 years of history and Hebrew literature. It includes the hope of becoming a "nation of priests" and a "light upon the nations", of being the "children of Israel", or those who struggle with God and life, and try to make the best of this short life.

Now I admit that the Holocaust and anti-Semitism is, today, a big part of Jewish-American identity (and perhaps of world Jewry) and this is partially a consequence of the post-modern, post-holocaust, and post-religious condition that most of the world currently finds itself in: where God is dead, and the only thing that people have to unite themselves with each other is a common history of tragedy.

But Jews are not the only group to build a common-identity from the ashes of the painful past -- what would African-American consciousness be without the experience of slavery -- or Palestinian identity without the 1948 and 1967 wars with Israel? These are natural human reactions and not necessarily bad or negative -- in fact, its a process of transforming pain into pride and honor.

Of course, there is always the danger of going too far with one's suffering, and turning it into a victim-complex. I'm sure there are many Jews who shout "anti-Semite" at anything that moves, but I don't doubt for a minute that the same can't be said for other peoples. So why are you focusing on Jews? Do you think they are the only ones who are capable of self-pity?

One more thing needs to be said -- Jewish suffering is unique, just as all peoples' suffering is unique in-itself. The denial of the peculiar nature of the Holocaust, for instance, which wiped out one third of world Jewry, while the rest of the civilized world fell silent, is a trauma that perhaps some people simply cannot understand.

Yes, other peoples were singled out in the Holocaust, but not to the same degree as the Jews. Why is this important? Because it needs to be recognized that the Holocaust was just the cap on the bottle of 2,000 years of persecution directed at Jews -- and this is unique, because Jews are also the only people who wrote the Bible and spread it to the world, and later reaped the consequenced from folk (Christians and Muslims) who believed that they were the "new" chosen people.

Now you might say that Jews brought much of this hatred upon themselves for a host of reasons, or that they are self-discriminatory by assuming "Chosen" status, but that is a separate argument. The truth is that all people have suffered, and no peoples' suffering should be elevated above others --- but at the same time, let's not lose sight of the moments in time when the Jews really are singled out for special treatment and hatred.

Originally posted by omshanti Here is a link to the list of genocides against assyrians. How about the treatment of the Irish by the English, or Kurds and Armenians by the Turks, or Caucasic people (such as the Chechnians or Circassians) by the Russians, or the Tibetans by the Chinese, or the Native Americans by the settlers, or the situation of Ainus and Koreans in Japan, Gypsies (Roma people) in Europe ..... need I go on?

Once more, Yisahshkhar, I have only one thing to say: bravo.

Originally posted by Jagiello   I said that over generations Jews always remember their roots and never forget that they are firstly Jews and than citizens of a given country.For example,if a german emigrates to France after 100 years his ancestors will not think of themselves as germans,but as french,and if a Jew goes to France his ancestors will alwys remember that they are Jews,not french.This is very general and i can't say it for sure about all Jews but generaly it is prooven over the centuries.I respect them for that ,but others think it is very bad and it becomes one of the reasons for anti-semitism.

Well, no offense but obviously you don't really know what you're talking about. In France (an example I'm close of) many Jews came from Eastern Europe about 100 years ago, nowadays so to speak none of them speaks Yiddish, Polish, Hungrian or German. When it comes to the integration in the national community, not only several thousand Jewish soldiers participated to the conflicts France was ingaged in during the 20th century but many of those assimilated during the 19th century didn't welcome the Jews coming from Eastern Europe in the 1900s. Indeed, these were seen as backward peasants that would threaten the process of integration in the national community. Take the Dreyfus Affair, the interesting point there is that a Jew was officier in the high command of the French Army. To a large extent the same can be said about the US of A or in a way the Austro-Hungrian Empire. Of course you have counter example of Jews stubbornly preserving their diiference and refusing to integrate but these were rare.

Here is a joke for you to understand my point:
A rabbi in 1939 escapes from Poland and joins his familly in England. At Yom Kippour, while all his children came to celebrate in his house, he cannot stop crying. When ask for the reason of his sorrow, he explains that he won't ever be able to get over the fact that he had to run away from his village (stetel). His children are concerned so they tell him: "Father, the stetel's behind you, you're in England, you should try to integrate yourself in the English society, stop wearing this fur hat".
The next six Yom Kippour celebration, the rabbi continues to cry and every times his children ask him to remove one jewish feature from his costume (black coat, kippa, hair cut...). Eventually, he looks like a perfect English gentleman.
In 1947, for Yom Kippour, he is still crying. So his children ask him: "Father, why these tears, Eretz Israel is about to be created, all the familly survived the war, are you still thinking about your stetel?".
And the rabbi answers: "no, but I can't believe we lost India!"

Besides, the next time you state that a phenomenon is "proven over the centuries", please provide at least one example we could discuss.

Originally posted by oshmanti In my opinion the whole sense of identity of the Jewish nation is based on persecution and discrimination, which is probably why they have the loudest voice when it comes to voicing their sufferings (remember the Gypsies and Slavs also suffered in Nazi concentration camps). The sense of feeling a uniqueness from victimhood is very comforting but blinding and dangerous.

I think you are missing here an important element. The shoa is not the only catastrophy upon which the Jewish identity is constructed, it is merely the lateset, the most important in number and the best documented. Remember Babylon, Egypt or the fall of the Temples. The Jewish identity is constructed on these catastrophies maybe more so than on characters such as David and Salomon. The key prophets are linked to these catastrophies (Jeremia, Moise�). Paradoxically, these catastrophies are proof (for the religious Jews) of the fact that they are the chosen ones, that God imposes test upon them but that one day the Messaia will come .
In a sense, it is quite close to the vision the Serbian have of the battle of Kosovo or the  Shias waiting for the hidden imam.

But Jewish communities are structured upon other things:
- The religious practice, belief and social activities.
- The networks (politic, economic, social)
- Self defense in front of adversity

That being said I agree with you the sense of uniqueness is very irritating, even though this doesn't come from the Shoa but the Shoa did re-enforced it. But you have to recognize that almost all minoroties have a strong feeling of uniqueness but haven't been as successful as the Jews to convince the others of their uniqueness. Which of course makes them unique in that sense...

The problem with the Gypsies is that they are still parias. BTW slavs never went as such in death camps.

@ pinguin: I have to disagree with you: is antisemitism the only phenomenon without a cause?


Edited by Maharbbal - 13-Mar-2007 at 23:44

Originally posted by Maharbbal ....@ pinguin: I have to disagree with you: is antisemitism the only phenomenon without a cause?

Omshanti,

The assumption behind your argument is that "Jewish suffering is over-exxagerated" either by Jews or Gentiles (that part is not so clear.)

Yet you show no proof, other than vague feelings and perceptions that you've had over time. On the other hand, there is a long history of documented cases of discriminatory action against the Jews (such as the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Cossack raids against the Russians, the numerous explusions, the scapegoating, etc) that would lend credence to the idea that Jews have been especially picked on by their host countries.

Your claim that Jewish People have the "loudest voice" for complaining about their suffering is questionable. Do you have a machine that can measure the volumne of lamentations? Even if it were true, is it so bad that Jews are outspoken about injustices done upon them? Would you suggest they/we keep it inside, that we say nothing? Or just a little less than we currently do? And if we don't speak up for ourselves, who will? Certainly almost nobody -- if we take the WWII era as a case study.

You say that the "whole sense" of Jewish identity is built upon "persecution and discrimination" and yet, you give no credit to the positive core of ideas that really makes up Jewish selfhood -- being a mortal, imperfect human being, and yet struggling to live up to the image of God, wrestling with and being married to the Creator -- that is the meaning of Yisra'EL, and that is the true root of Judaism, not self-inflicted pity or victimhood.

Remember, before the suffering and slavery of the Exodus, there was  the contract between the Israelites and God in Genesis, and the peaceful settling in the land of Canaan by Abraham. This is the foundation or at least the beginning of Jewish identity.

Exactly Maharbbal you said it again, the uniqueness of Jewish people comes from the fact that the Jewish people have been successfull to convince the whole world (including themselves) that they are ''the especially persecuted/discriminated nation'', which probably gives the comfort of feeling ''special'' or ''chosen'' and which probably is the underlying idea behind the birth and usage of the term ''anti-semitism''.

Come on, this is becoming obscene. Would you say this to a Holocaust survivor's face in person? If not, then why would you say it on the Internet? Yes, I grant you that there are some Jews in the world who base their entire identity off of suffering, and feel comfortable and special because they feel like a victim. These types of creatures exist in every culture and the attributable name for them is -- losers! But to say that all Jews operate according to this behavioral code is simple stereotyping.

You are right every suffering is unique, or as a matter of fact every experience whether it be a happy one or sad one is unique, however being a victim by itself is not unique and does not make any body unique. The difference depends on whether you talk about the experience itself or the fact of being a victim.

Exactly! Jews do not hold themselves up as the only victims in the world. Do you know that Jews were at the forefront of the Black civil rights movement in the United States during the days of Martin Luther King? Why do you think this is so? Because our suffering allowed us to emphathize with their suffering, and more importantly, act in defense of their rights that were denied to us for so long. 

I never denied the Jewish nature of holocauset, but only pointed out the fact that the nature of holocaust included many non-jews whose victimhood has been mostly forgotten, such as the estimated 500000 to 800000 Gypsies....

And what's the point? Why do you feel a need to compare peoples' sufferings? Is it mature? Is it fair? Isn't it enough to listen to all peoples' pain and not judge who has endured more or less?

Jews remember the memories of those who died in the Holocaust and were not Jewish -- for instance, take a look at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial site in Israel -- http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot/prog/index_before_change_table.asp?gate=2-34

which has preserved diaries, photographs, documents, letters, and more from these victims. If their memories are being "ignored" its not the fault of Jews but the media (and they are not the same thing -- but what other group is accused of controlling it?)

And since you're opening this discussion up to the morality of Israel, let me respond to this too:

The Jewish refugees who became the nation-state of Israel did not "create" Palestinian suffering. The Jews bought their land legally from Muslims at exorbiant prices, and accepted the UN Partition that would have generated a two-state solution. The Palestinians and the Arabs and the Muslims rejected the plan and went to war against the Jews. From that decision, the Palestinian refugee problem was born. And even if you disagree with these facts, it would not change the trauma that the Jews experienced from the Holocaust. What's hypocritical is to judge or criticize the Holocaust victims because you don't agree with the actions of their descendents.

With regards to bible, perhaps the connection of the Jews with the bible and that the bible happened to spread around the world, have something to do with the fact that the Jews were so ''successfull in convincing the whole world'' as Maharbbal puts it.

And anti-Semitism is not just a "term" or a vague "concept" created in the minds of Jews to suck the sympathy out of people. Rather, it was a real phenomenom that manifested in just about every country where Jews have been living over the course of the last 2,000 years -- and it is essentially hating Jews for special reasons -- like being deniers of Christ, or deniers of Muhammad. What other people are accused of killing God, but the Jews?

The Palestinians are not the "direct victims of the Jews" but of their own rejectionist philosophies and their corrupt leaderships. The Arab leaders called on the Palestinians first to leave their homes, so that Israel could be destroyed in 1948. When that didn't work, they kept their Palestinian refugees in camps as political pawns to fester anger at the Israelis. And now the Palestinians are being led by a radical terrorist organization (Hamas) on the one hand, and a secular, corrupt revolutionary group on the other (Fatah) both of which are killing each other and Palestinian citizens on the streets. Their own sense of victimhood is apparent from the constant blaming of their problems on the Jews, and their cult of martyrdom or Shaheedism.

Anti-Semitism is not an "idea", its a reality. Whether some Jews or others are guilty of exploiting this reality at certain times for their own selfish or political advantage -- that might be true. But even so, it would not cancel out the fact that it is real in the first place.

Just look at Tehran's Holocaust conference.....





Edited by Yisahshkhahr - 14-Mar-2007 at 16:19

Well, I can't explain the case of Spain: extreme nationalism, in a time where religion was considered part of the national identity. Spain was an country invaded by the Arabs that took control of the south and "forced" a multicultural society. When the Northerners retook control of the nation took revenge with everybody that was not seen like loyal to the country, or (in theirs terms) Christians. That's why they gave the chance to convert of leave. That affected both Muslims and Jews, and while Protestants were persecuting to extinction.

Hi Pinguin,

I agree with you that ignorance or lack of understanding is also a cause for anti-Semitism, just like it would be for just about any racism against any people. I also think you're correct to say that the Jewish tradition not to marry "outside the tribe", as well as a perceived "secrecy" contributed to the historical hatred of Jews.

However, we should also remember that both the Church (which ruled Europe for many centuries) and the Islamic Caliphates officially forbid  inter-marriage and/or sexual relations (not to mention conversion) with Jews, usually on the punishment of death.

So, even if Jews would have wanted to join the Gentile society, their only choice was to surrender their spiritual-identity and therefore their community, their families, their cultures -- and that was a price too high to pay, especially when they would often still be looked upon, suspiciously, as "Jewish" by their new co-religionists.

Regarding your question, as to why there hasn't been a better PR campaign or diffusion of Jewish culture to the rest of the population -- I think that is happening today, even if its not quite good enough. At least in America, Jews are engaged in the popular culture, but as you said, there are still barriers.

These barriers, in my opinion, are residues from the past: in the year 586 BCE, Jerusalem was sieged by the Babylonians, and Judah was destroyed. The Jews were exiled and deported to Babylon. When King Cyrus conquered the Babylonians and set the Jews free -- Ezra led the Jews back to Canaan and wrote about how horrified he was to see his fellow Jews (never deported) marrying and interacting with non-Jews and Samarians. Many Biblical Scholars believe that Ezra was the scribe who wrote into the Torah much of the regulations about keeping Jew separate from Gentile.

See, during the time that the Jews were deported -- the Babylonians brought many other peoples into the land (and many came on their own accord) -- the same happened earlier in 722 BCE when Assyria destroyed the Northern Kingdom of Israel. So Canaan at the time of Ezra was a diverse place, ethnically, religiously -- and Ezra probably, perhaps fanatically, wanted to create a unity among his people -- and that's when the "barriers" were first formally erected, through the Torah. And ever since then, Jews have had an instinct to stick-to-their-own. Years later, Christian and Muslim anti-Semitism would have re-inforced this instinct, and the cycle of xenophobia is set in place. Its unforunate, but I think when we understand it in this light, there is hope for change.

P.S. Sorry if my prior post was confusing, its kind of like trying to untie a really tight knot.


Edited by Yisahshkhahr - 17-Mar-2007 at 11:04

First of all , I am not downplaying (as Maharbbal seemes to think) or denying (as Yisahshikhar seems to think) any discrimination/persecution that has happened to the Jewish people. I am simply pointing out that ''anti-semitism'' is an ignorant term/concept created by the Jewish mentality/mind that needs to be special or unique in victimhood. I am only pointing out that the Jews are not special in victimhood, that they are not the only, the most or uniquely and especially persecuted/discriminated people as meny people seem to think. I am only pointing out that the ignorant concept of ''anti semitism'' can be blinding and very dangerous.

I have figured out that pointing out those things to Jewish people is like treading on eggshells since every thing I write is taken with paranoiac tendency (which by itself prooves what I have been saying), and that generally they are considered politically incorrect. However I feel that as long as the unfair situation of the Palestinians continue, and for the sake of all those non-jewish victims whose victimhood has been ignored/forgotten under the concept of ''anti-semitism'' , I have to point those things out.

Regarding the israeli-Palestinian situation, since it is a direct consequence of the ignorant concept ''anti-semitism'' (and Zionism), and since it is the cause of the ''anti-semitism'' (as perceived by the Jews and the west) in the middle east,   I see absolutely no reason why it should not be discussed here, other than the fact that some people just can not accept that the Jews have created and continue to create a victim nation. Furthermore, it is double-standard to treat the israeli-Palestinian situation as off-topic when the term/concept of ''anti-semitism'' does not even distinguish between what is against Jews and what is against the state of israel. Anyway since this subject is not welcome here I have opened a new thread on the matter HERE .

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr Omshanti,The assumption behind your argument is that "Jewish suffering is over-exxagerated" either by Jews or Gentiles (that part is not so clear.) .

Where exactly did I ever write that ''Jewish suffering is over exaggerated'' ? As I have written many times, I am not denying any thing that has happened to Jews. I am only pointing out the fact that the Jewish people are not the only, the most , uniqely and especially persecuted/discriminated people as it is believed by most people , the idea of which is a big factor of the ''victimhood=the chosen one=special nation'' Jewish mentality.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr Yet you show no proof, other than vague feelings and perceptions that you've had over time. On the other hand, there is a long history of documented cases of discriminatory action against the Jews (such as the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Cossack raids against the Russians, the numerous explusions, the scapegoating, etc) that would lend credence to the idea that Jews have been especially picked on by their host countries..

What proof do I need to show when I am only pointing out the fact that the Jews are not the only victims or especially persecuted/discriminated people? (In fact I did write that endless list of discriminated/persecuted peoples in my second post here.) I am not down playing or denying anythimng as you seem to be assuming. You give those events as examples saying that they lend credence to the idea of Jews being especially picked on.
1. regarding Spanish inquisition, It was directed at anybody who was not catholic and anybody who was considered heretic.
2. regarding the Holocaust, I thought you already accepted and posted a link yourself to show that there were many other victims.
3. regarding the cossack raids, you wrote it yourself ''cossack raids against Russians'' where is the Jewish part? Also cossacks were much more known for their raids against their islamic neighbors.
4.regarding expulsions and scapegoating, there are limitless peoples in the world who have experienced them.
The fact that you write ''Jews have been especially picked on'' is a very good proof of what I have been saying about the Jewish mentality.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr .Your claim that Jewish People have the "loudest voice" for complaining about their suffering is questionable. Do you have a machine that can measure the volumne of lamentations? Even if it were true, is it so bad that Jews are outspoken about injustices done upon them? Would you suggest they/we keep it inside, that we say nothing? Or just a little less than we currently do? And if we don't speak up for ourselves, who will? Certainly almost nobody -- if we take the WWII era as a case study.

Personally I do not care how loud the voice of the Jewish people is. I am only concerned about the fact that many other victims are being ignored or forgotten under this loud voice, that this loud voice created the ignorant term/concept of ''ant-semitic'' under which so many people are being judged/labelled unfairly or victimized, and that the voice is so loud the Jews do not realize or choose to ignore what they are doing to the Palestinians.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr Come on, this is becoming obscene. Would you say this to a Holocaust survivor's face in person? If not, then why would you say it on the Internet? Yes, I grant you that there are some Jews in the world who base their entire identity off of suffering, and feel comfortable and special because they feel like a victim. These types of creatures exist in every culture and the attributable name for them is -- losers! But to say that all Jews operate according to this behavioral code is simple stereotyping.

Why is it becoming obscene? I would say it to a holocaust survivor in person. Just because someone is a holocaust survivor, it does not mean that you can not tell the truth to them does it?      Is it that offensive to point out the fact that there are many other discriminated/persecuted people and that the Jews are not the only, the most or uniquely and especially victimized people as they have been able to convince the world (and themselves)?

What you are doing is to use the pain of holocaust victims to hide behind the victimhood and twist and distract the argument.

Also I am not talking about individual people here, of course I know that every single human being is different and unique, but here I am talking about the way the Jewish nation acts as a whole. Every nation has a tendency or a mechanism in its actions as a whole.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr Do you know that Jews were at the forefront of the Black civil rights movement in the United States during the days of Martin Luther King? Why do you think this is so? Because our suffering allowed us to emphathize with their suffering, and more importantly, act in defense of their rights that were denied to us for so long.

Oh come on, Don't try to convince me with that line of ''our suffering allowed us to empathize with their suffering'', when Palestinians are suffering right under the nose of Jewish ignorance in apartheid Israel.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr Originally posted by Omshanti I never denied the Jewish nature of holocauset, but only pointed out the fact that the nature of holocaust included many non-jews whose victimhood has been mostly forgotten, such as the estimated 500000 to 800000 Gypsies.... And what's the point? Why do you feel a need to compare peoples' sufferings? Is it mature? Is it fair? Isn't it enough to listen to all peoples' pain and not judge who has endured more or less?

I am not comparing people's sufferings. I am only
pointing out the fact that the nature of holocaust included many non-jews whose victimhood has been mostly forgotten and ignored. First you accuse me of denying the holocaust and now you accuse me of
comparing people's sufferings. Is it that bad to point out about the non-jewish nature of the holocaust? On the other hand, in my opinion the moment you think that you are the only, the most or uniquely and especially victimized one, then you are comparing people's sufferings. Doesn't the fact that you are so paranoid about the mentionings of other victims show the Jewish mentality that I have been saying all along.

Originally posted by Yisahshkhahr And then we have two very different kinds of thinking, sort of post-modern challenges to the first, "classical", four: anti-Semitism is complicated and does not have one single cause anti-Semitism is real, but not unique, and Jews should not portray it as such ,

If by the second one you are meaning what I have been saying, then I have to inform you that you have misunderstood my posts. What I have been saying is that what has happened to the Jewish people is real (I am not denying any thing) but it is not unique at all, and that the ignorant concept/term of ''anti-semitism'' is purely a construct of the Jewish mentality that needs to be unique in victimhood and a special nation, which has no grasp on reality.



For example lets think about the Spanish inquisition which seems to have been labelled as an ''anti-semitic'' event in this thread. The inquisition was directed at any body who was not catholic or any body who was considered ''heretic''. The victims included Moslems, Protestants and Orthodox Greeks. Jews only happened to be one among so many victimized peoples and were not victimized because they were Jews, but still this whole event of Spanish inquisition seems to be perceived as an ''anti-semitic'' event by the Jewish mind.

Or lets think about Iran since it has been mentioned a few times in this thread and labelled as ''anti-semitic''. First of all how can iran be against Semitic peoples when so many Iranians are Semitic themselves. If by ''anti-semitic'' you mean anti-Jew, let me inform you that Iran is not against the Jewish people at all. Iran is simply against the state of israel due to israel's unfair establishment. However somehow the whole world has been convinced that Iran is ''anti-semitic'' and so come all those propaganda and mistranslations to prove Iran's ''anti-semiticness''.

In my opinion these two examples can be applied to most of the ''anti-semitism'' throughout history.






Edited by omshanti - 17-Mar-2007 at 22:19