Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The Pomak Language - a Bulgarian dialect?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Pomak Language - a Bulgarian dialect?
    Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 19:39
Yes I can easely point you to some bulgarian (or Slav) words:
 
Orhn: Mne mo zavt Orhn. Tbe kak to zavt?

In russian: Menja zovut Orhan, Tebja kak zovut?
 
Hilmiy: Mne mo zavt Hilmiy.
The same.
 
Orhn:  At kad si?
Bulgarian: ot kude si? Ot as you said is greek. Let it be greek.
Hilmiy: At Bratnkovo. T at kad si?
The same.
 
 
Orhn: Ya som at Sdnovitso. mash li drg brtye?

Ya is russian and old bulgarian. Som like bulgarian sum. at again greek.
 
Hilmiy: mom ann sstro i dvamna brtie.
Bulgarian: Imam edna sestra i dva (dvamina) brata.
 
Hilmiy: Klko si godn?
Bulgarian: Na kolko si godini?
 
etc.etc.etc.
 
kotetsi and velentza -- what do they mean???
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 19:58

I mean the bulgarian words which are respective of the pomak words I posted.

 
Kotetsi means "hutch"
 
Velentza means "rug"
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
The Chargemaster View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

Kishokan

Joined: 02-Feb-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 13:32
The "pomak"- english dictionary is so foollish thing, as foollish thing is the "macedonian"- english dictionary. They are in fact bulgarian - english dictionaries.
Back to Top
The Chargemaster View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

Kishokan

Joined: 02-Feb-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 14:21
Some greek words in the bulgarian language:

drum(dromos) = way;
pederast(paideo-erastos) = homosexual man(boys-lover);
ama = but (i am not sure is it greek)

...and thowsands universal words.

There is a tiny source about the lingiustic characteristic of the bulgarian dialect in the Rhodope mountains(Rodopi), but is in bulgarian: http://bgrod.org/Ezik/index.php?p=smolqngovor

Той има и значителен брой гръцки думи като омес (лице), прогима (закуска), харкома (котел), апраци (сарми), арнисвам (перставам), лаха се (случва се),  каматан (красив), тора (довечера) и др.


greek words in rhodopian bulgarian dialect - english - official bulgarian:

omes        - face          - лице;
progima   - breakfast  - закуска;
harkoma  - cauldron   - котел;
laha se     - happen     - случва се;
kamatan  - beautiful   - красив;
tora          - tonight     - довечера.
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 14:26
Originally posted by The Chargemaster

ama = but (i am not sure is it greek)
It is Turkish.
 

omes        - face          - лице;
progima   - breakfast  - закуска;
harkoma  - cauldron   - котел;
laha se     - happen     - случва се;
kamatan  - beautiful   - красив;
tora          - tonight     - довечера.
 
I can add a few more words (I heard them from Cypriot Greeks)
 
'mutsuna'      -  nose
'mutra'           -  face (in turkish 'surat')


Edited by bg_turk - 25-Jun-2006 at 14:28
Back to Top
osmanlija View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 22-Apr-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote osmanlija Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 21:50

      Pomak language is a Bulgarian dialect for sure.But differences from the standart Bulgarian seem big.Once i met a guy from a village near Smolyan.He told me that in their village,they use only "sreden rod".They say "ya som bolno" instead of "as sum bolen".He also told me that Pomak dialects vary a lot.That looks sensible since they are seperated from Christian Bulgarians for hundreds of years.If we also consider that they were Bogomils even before the Ottoman Conquest of Rhodopes,we can understand it better how they were seperated than other Bulgarians.It is well-known that they lived in the mountains for long time in the history. 

      I also find it nonsense the Greek nationalistic view about Pomaks.They may use some Greek words,also they use many more Turkish words but that doesnt change the fact that they speak a Slavic language.All the grammar is the same with Bulgarian and Macedonian except for slight differences.
      I can also understand why most of them dont want to consider themselves as Bulgarians.It is not a very old history what is done in Rhodopes by the Bulgarian army between 1968-1972.Many of the victims' corpses were found in the reservoir of the river Maritsa and in dams,also in the woods.In some houses all the habitants were taken by the police and their neighbours didnt hear anything about them.Many people had to take shelter in forests and woods to escape the torture and air planes sprayed poisonous gases on forests near Samokof,Dospat,Yakorudo,Babyak,Bansko.Many corpses were found in Dospat dam.People who were fleeing away to Greece to take refuge in Greece were shot from the helicopters.
And these people still live in Rhodopes.The young people hear the stories of their grandparents and parents.So it is not hard to understand why a important part of the Pomak population dont call themselves as Bulgarians
     
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 07:53
Cill out, I just told that a lot of greek words exist in the pomak vocabulary. Where is the nationalistic view?
 
Why some of you are always try to explain anything as a nationalistic attempt?
 
And stop fighting about their bulgarian or turkish origin...
 
Something else I want to say is that I can't take seriously people who say that there is no pomak language but they talk about "macedonian language"....
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 08:01
Originally posted by dorian

Cill out, I just told that a lot of greek words exist in the pomak vocabulary. Where is the nationalistic view?
 
Why some of you are always try to explain anything as a nationalistic attempt?
 
And stop fighting about their bulgarian or turkish origin...
 
Something else I want to say is that I can't take seriously people who say that there is no pomak language but they talk about "macedonian language"....
 
Some of you do the same with the same frequency. I cannot take seriously people who always try to find greek footstep in any topic. Any language contain greek words it is widely accepted. No needs to repeate this every time.  Keeping in mind that nowadays a lot of them are replaced with their english analogues.
Back to Top
Yiannis View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 08:32
I believe  you're easily offended and that Dorian was merely trying to show that the Pomac language is Bulgarian in origin but also influenced by other languages as well. At least that's what I understood from his posts....
 
 
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
Back to Top
Tangra View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28 		  Quote Tangra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 18:27
Osmanlija
I can also understand why most of them dont want to consider themselves as Bulgarians.It is not a very old history what is done in Rhodopes by the Bulgarian army between 1968-1972.Many of the victims' corpses were found in the reservoir of the river Maritsa and in dams,also in the woods.In some houses all the habitants were taken by the police and their neighbours didnt hear anything about them.Many people had to take shelter in forests and woods to escape the torture and air planes sprayed poisonous gases on forests.
 
It will be very sad and ignorant if they don't want to call themselves Bulgarians because of what communism did to them as what happened to them during that time was strictly related to government's decisions based on this dictative policy.
 
 Don't foget there were as many bulgarians hurt killed disappered and tortured and abused by the regyme of communism. Need I mentioned Belene....
 
Hell, those poisonoeus gases you talk about you think they were designed to hurt only pomacs? they hurt any other living human being there as much as pomaks and is because communism and its regyme in general didn't care.
 
In fact considerinmg the history Bulgaria had under the Ottoman Empire it is actually amazing that Bulgarians left so many pomacs living in Bulgaria after 1910  and lived with them peacefully and shared their land with them without any problems up until the Communist dictature which punished bulgarians just as mercelessly as pomaks.
 
 
You don't hear about anything being done to pomaks before communism or over the past 20 years since communism was abolished. Do you?
 
In fact since communism was abolished Bulgarians are the only ones!!! in Europe who have allowed turks to have their own party in the governemnt !
 
It is kind of funny to hear that they didn't want to call themselves bulgarians because of what communism did to them..... give me a break!
 
  That's borderline ungratefulness one and secondly it is absolute unability to separate the bulgarian nationality and history form Communism and its ideology and brutality.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Tangra - 26-Jun-2006 at 18:41
HUBAVA SI MOYA GORO!
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 18:46
Originally posted by Tangra

In fact considerinmg the history Bulgaria had under the Ottoman Empire it is actually amazing that Bulgarians left so many pomacs living in Bulgaria after 1910  and lived with them peacefully and shared their land with them without any problems up until the Communist dictature which punished bulgarians just as mercelessly as pomaks.
 


Actually Tangra you are wrong on claiming that Bulgarians "peacefully shared their lands" with the Pomaks after 1910. In many ways the faith of the Pomak population in Bulgaria was worse than what we Turks had to endure.

I opened a thread on the history of the Pomaks some time ago:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11629&PN=1

The Bulgarian plunders against the Pomak population are also well described in the Carnegie report on the conduct during the Balkan wars. An online version is available here.

http://knigite.abv.bg/en/carnegie/index.html


Edited by bg_turk - 26-Jun-2006 at 18:52
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 18:51
Originally posted by osmanlija

Many of the victims' corpses were found in the reservoir of the river Maritsa and in dams,also in the woods.In some houses all the habitants were taken by the police and their neighbours didnt hear anything about them.Many people had to take shelter in forests and woods to escape the torture and air planes sprayed poisonous gases on forests near Samokof,Dospat,Yakorudo,Babyak,Bansko.Many corpses were found in Dospat dam.People who were fleeing away to Greece to take refuge in Greece were shot from the helicopters.


The information that you present is actually quite new to me. I know the Pomaks were subjected to the "rebirth" campaign much earlier than us Turks but I never realized the situation was that bad. Could you please state your sources for the information above?

Viktor Bojkov has studied the technology and the methods used during the "rebirth" process against the Turks (which was previously rehearsed on the Pomaks), and I provided sections of his article here, for those who are interested:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11996


He does not mention any gas poisoning, shooting from helicopters or corpses in dams but it is possible he might have missed that info.


Edited by bg_turk - 26-Jun-2006 at 19:03
Back to Top
Tangra View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28 		  Quote Tangra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 19:04
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Tangra

In fact considerinmg the history Bulgaria had under the Ottoman Empire it is actually amazing that Bulgarians left so many pomacs living in Bulgaria after 1910  and lived with them peacefully and shared their land with them without any problems up until the Communist dictature which punished bulgarians just as mercelessly as pomaks.
 


Actually Tangra you are wrong on claiming that Bulgarians "peacefully shared their lands" with the Pomaks after 1910. In many ways the faith of the Pomak population in Bulgaria was worse than what we Turks had to endure.

I opened a thread on the history of the Pomaks some time ago:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11629&PN=1

The Bulgarian plunders against the Pomak population are also well described in the Carnegie report on the conduct during the Balkan wars. An online version is available here.

http://knigite.abv.bg/en/carnegie/index.html
 
Thank you for the information BG_turk
 
Its genuenly new to me and I am quite surprised.


Edited by Tangra - 26-Jun-2006 at 19:05
HUBAVA SI MOYA GORO!
Back to Top
osmanlija View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 22-Apr-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote osmanlija Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 06:03
bg_turk,
i have read it in an English book written by a Turkish author.He had the sources in the book,unfortunately i dont have the book at home now.The book was about the atrocities committed by the Communist government against Turks,Pomaks and gypsies.Also the author provided many names in the book,also mentions about many more events.One of the interesting source was that,some Pomaks tried to apply to immigrate to Turkey,and in the document that the Bulgarian government responded was written "Since those people are Bulgarians,they done have the right to immigrate to Turkey"  "njamate pravo da se izselite sas semejstvoto, taj kato po proizhod ste Bulgari"
tangra,
you are right that all those were committed in the communist era,i didnt want to accuse any bulgarian for those.I just wanted to mention that its not very easy to forget these kind of events for people.
Also i want to mention that my father knows about these events well.At that time he lived in the Pazardjik oblast and was not very far from that events.He also tells me about what his Pomak friends told him that he had in the army.He told me that Pomaks resisted even more than Turks in the "vazroditelnija process".Also according to my observations Pomaks in Bulgaria are much more religious than Bulgarian Turks.
Its also interesting to me that i met some Pomaks in Turkey that still didnt forget pomak language.I also know some villages in Bursa,Manisa,Canakkale,Balikesir and Trakia region where only Pomaks live.
 
 
Back to Top
The Chargemaster View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

Kishokan

Joined: 02-Feb-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 11:46
Originally posted by osmanlija

I also know some villages in Bursa,Manisa,Canakkale,Balikesir and Trakia region where only Pomaks live.

That`s very interesting! Thumbs Up
Please, tell us more about these villages, or at least their names(use the turkish alphabet).
Back to Top
Tangra View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28 		  Quote Tangra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 14:58
Originally posted by osmanlija

tangra,
you are right that all those were committed in the communist era,i didnt want to accuse any bulgarian for those.I just wanted to mention that its not very easy to forget these kind of events for people.
Also i want to mention that my father knows about these events well.At that time he lived in the Pazardjik oblast and was not very far from that events.He also tells me about what his Pomak friends told him that he had in the army.He told me that Pomaks resisted even more than Turks in the "vazroditelnija process".Also according to my observations Pomaks in Bulgaria are much more religious than Bulgarian Turks.
Its also interesting to me that i met some Pomaks in Turkey that still didnt forget pomak language.I also know some villages in Bursa,Manisa,Canakkale,Balikesir and Trakia region where only Pomaks live.
 
 
Thank you Osmanlija !
 
There is no way anyone can forget this and not only Pomaks but all of us- we shouldn't forget  the events of our mutial history. We should forgive but we must remember.
 
At the time this was happening that broke the hearts of the majority of the Bulgarian population but as you know at that time no one could argue with a communist law and order. 
 
The Bulgarian people is just starting to rebuild itself and that is why I am refreshed to see that we as a nation have started to work to move past the grudges from the past. It is good that Turks can have their own party and say in the governemnent for this stands to show the true feelings of christian Bulgarians versus Pomaks and Turks and that we have allowed and shared with our minorities powers which other countries have not yet.
Under democracy we have the freedom to be normal human beings and live neighborly and we all should pick up our ends of the table.
 
I believe we should always remember the mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them.
 
Regards


Edited by Tangra - 27-Jun-2006 at 16:01
HUBAVA SI MOYA GORO!
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 17:12
Tangra I applaud you, people like you will take Bulgaria forward! The beautiful country needs beatiful minds Smile
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Tangra View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28 		  Quote Tangra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 17:44
Originally posted by Bulldog

Tangra I applaud you, people like you will take Bulgaria forward! The beautiful country needs beatiful minds Smile
 
Thanks Bulldog !
The truth is that I love all of my bolkan brothers and cousins and If i had a chance to be reborn i would chose the be reborn a Bolkan blood again.
 
My dream is to see every etnicity preserved and respected and holding hands together in a society of new era  in which we could build an empire of Respect and Togetherness. We must be true to the history and learn form it.
The Bolkans is a small paradise and the people of the Bolkans we all hold lots of hot blood and passion and pride which if directed in the right direction can be our driving power to success and long standing Peace and pull us out of any social and economic troubles we endure presently.
 
Unity is the Power!
 
I hope soon some day my dream shall come true!


Edited by Tangra - 27-Jun-2006 at 17:47
HUBAVA SI MOYA GORO!
Back to Top
osmanlija View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 22-Apr-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote osmanlija Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 13:00
the chargemaster
I know the names of 2 villages in Bursa."Gndoğdu" and "Armutky".I know many more villages but i dont know the names.These are the names of the villages in the Biga region near anakkale:Abdiağa, Akkayrak, Arabaalan, Camialan, eşmealtı, Elmalı, Harmanlı, Havdan, Ilıcabaşı, Işıkeli (Eşeki), İlyasalan, İskenderky, Kapanbelen, Kaynarca, Yeşilky (ilingir Mahallesi), Yolindi    Most of those villages are founded by Rhodope Pomaks.the villages eşmealtı was founded by Pomaks from northeastern Bulgaria(from Botevgrad).Yeniitlik was founded by Pomaks from Lofa(Love).For thpse who speak Turkish
in this site you can learn more about the Pomaks and other minorities in Biga.There is a deep information about where the immigrants came from.
 
I had some friends from Pomaks.I can say that most Pomaks who live in big cities usually dont speak Pomak.But most say me that their grandparents and parents still speak it.Pomaks who live in villages are usually religious.Once i asked a Pomak "what do you think about the theory that the Ottomans forced Pomaks to convert?"He answered me "dont ever say it in a Pomak village,they will kill you"Smile
Its for sure that in Turkey there is bigger Pomak population than in Bulgaria as i can see everywhere someone from some Pomak origin.
Back to Top
The Chargemaster View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

Kishokan

Joined: 02-Feb-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 14:15
Your information is better than all sources which i has read up to this day!

Seni COK tesekurederim! You are a good source, i think! Thumbs Up
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.