Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Battles of the Varangian Guard

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
think View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 435
  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Battles of the Varangian Guard
    Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 11:06
Ive read sketchy accounts on their battles an their role within the Byzantium empire an i was wondering what battles did they take part in an did they win or loose...

How long where they within the ranks of the Eastern Romans?

Is there any evidence left over, perhaps names of cities?

How many numbers where they fighting against an what were their numbers?

How vital were they to the Byznatines?

Some general info would be nice, an some lesser known info...

Some webistes say they were Russians an some say they were scandanavians Confused


Edited by think - 10-Oct-2006 at 11:09
Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1231
  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 12:28
 I can offer some general info on them, the Varangians as a people originated from Scandanavia but moved into Russia I think in the 8th or 9th century, where they participated in trading activities and as mercenaries, very similar activites to that of the vikings in general. Gradually moving southwards to the Black sea, where they came into contact with Byzantium.

 They appeared as mercenaries in the Byzantine army in the 9th century and were in regular sometimes hostile contact with Byzantium throughout the 10th century and continued to act as soldiers for the imperial army at the same time. Usually the founding of the Varangian guard is cited as being during the reign of Basil II 976-1025 when Basil recieved several thousand Varangians from the prince of Kiev to helpput down a rebel, in exchange for Basils sister in marriage and I believe the princes conversion to Christianity.

 However as I previously mentioned, Byzantiums contact with these fierce Varangians was much older, in any event Basil formed these men into his own imperial bodyguard. The reason for this was, unlike most guards in Roman/Byzantine history the Varangians were incredibly loyal to the Emperor, they would often fight to the death for their Emperor often regardless of how effective the current Emperor was. Also upon an Emperors death they would immediately transmit their loyalty to his successor, again regardless of how he came to the throne.

 In battle I can't offer much detailed information, though I do recall they fought under the future Nowegian king Harold Hadrada (Acolyte of the Varangians, the title of the guards commander) in Sicily in the mid 11th century. By the late 11th century the guard had a high percentage of Anglo-Saxons in the ranks, those who had left England during the reign of William the conqueror and had made their way to Constantinople. Perhaps they knew they would eventually meet the Normans in battle and get their revenge.

 The Varangians actually met the Normans who were led by Robert Guiscard at the battle of Dyrrhachium in 1081 were they were almost destroyed after pursuing some of the routing Norman troops, the Byzantine did end up losing the battle and almost the war.

 Finally I know that the Varangians were the only unit to hold their ground during the siege of Constantinople in 1204 and were destroyed almost to the man and were believed to have been disbanded after that. However there is apparently some record of these by now Englishmen serving under the Nicaean Emperors and perhaps even the Palaeologians.

 Thats a general outline of them and I think I got most of it right LOL but there are guys on here who know a ton more about them than me.

 


Edited by Heraclius - 10-Oct-2006 at 12:30
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 07:18
I think Heraclius said most of it already, but there is one point I dont agree on:
The Varangians were never a tribe. The name is used only for the guards in Constantinople, not for a people. They were Scandinavians, but many came to Constantinople through Russia, where the Swedes had settled. They often were people who were exiled or chased out by opponents, Scandinavia was politically very dangerous in the ninth and tenth centuries. Often they were rivalling royal sons or nobles. The best known one was Harald Hardradi (hard-ruler, 1046-1066) who eventually made it to king of Norway and died at Stamford Bridge trying to win England for himself.
 
After the invasion of England by the Normans in 1066 the guard started to change. The Scandinavians, due to politically more stable conditions at home, became less present. In time they were almost fully replaced by Anglo-Saxons who had left England (or were banned) because of the Norman presence there.
 
I can imagine this might be the reason they were so eager to get these Normans at Dyrrhachium...Wink

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 08-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1943
  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 17:37
I don't have much detailed info, but you should look into the campaigns of George Maniakes, the Byzantine general, under whom Harald Hardrada served when he commanded the Varangians.
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 407
  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 10:35
AS far as i can remember ,Varangian guards are mentioned by Anna Comnena's "Alexiad"- taking part in Dyrrachium battle.
They were deployed in front of the rest army,first fought with Normans, but soon,because they marched far from the rest army they were defeated.
Also,i think there is a mention of them fighting the Crusaders on the walls of Constantinople ,in 1204.

Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1231
  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 07:07
I've found two other battles;
 
The battle of Beroia 1122, the Byzantine army under the Emperor John II Comnenus was recalled from Asia Minor to march against the Pechenegs who had crossed the Danube again, apparently the Byzantines had a hard fight trying to break the Pecheneg laager, but when the Varangians were sent in they beat their way through and the Pechenegs fled and were annihilated.
 
Also the battle of Sirmium 1167 Manuel I Comnenus this time lured the Hungarian army to the city of Sirmium in the ancient Roman province of Pannonia where the Byzantine army routed the Hungarians. The Varangians definately took part, however what exact influence they had is unknown it seems, the Byzantine army was made up of Italians, Serbs, Turks, Cumans and other barbarians in this battle, so it's hard to tell who dealt the decisive blow specifically.
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Turk Nomad View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 11-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 228
  Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 14:46
Pechenegs and Cumans are Turks friendWink
 
Well,ı heard in battle of Manzikert(1071),there were varangians in Bryzantine army.They all killed by Turkmens...
Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1231
  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 15:02
Originally posted by Turk Nomad

Pechenegs and Cumans are Turks friendWink
 
Well,ı heard in battle of Manzikert(1071),there were varangians in Bryzantine army.They all killed by Turkmens...


 The whole of the Varangians wernt present, many remained in Constantinople, although those who did participate in the battle almost certainly died to the man, which is honourable as they would often fight to the death, although its certain to mean they recieve greater casualties when things went wrong. Fair play to the Turks though, those who fought for Byzantium at Manzikert remained loyal and were killed pretty much to the man to.

 *friends* as you claim, didn't stop them being defeated.


Edited by Heraclius - 14-Oct-2006 at 15:04
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Vikingrage View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 05-Oct-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Vikingrage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 15:10

Read up on Harald Hardrada, he went out on a huge campaign and took territories and keeps all over in the name of the Empress of Byzantine. Supposivly the Queen wanted to Marry him but the woman he loved was in Russia (Keiv?) He was thrown into jail for wanting to leave his Mercenary life to try and become King of Norway. He and his friend who were thrown into jail escaped because a woman who owed a debt to St.Olaf i beleive who was related to Harald, before he left he found the General responsible for arresting him and cut out his eyes. Then he went back to Russia. Harald is my Hero, its been a while since Ive read his saga.

Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 407
  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 03:13
Originally posted by Heraclius



Originally posted by Turk Nomad

Pechenegs and Cumans are Turks friend

Well,ı heard in battle of Manzikert(1071),there were varangians in Bryzantine army.They all killed by Turkmens...
The whole of the Varangians wernt present, many remained in Constantinople, although those who did participate in the battle almost certainly died to the man, which is honourable as they would often fight to the death, although its certain to mean they recieve greater casualties when things went wrong. Fair play to the Turks though, those who fought for Byzantium at Manzikert remained loyal and were killed pretty much to the man to.*friends* as you claim, didn't stop them being defeated.

    
Certainly killed?Why?
Most of the Byzantine army retreated after Mantzikiert battle.
The casualties are prooven overestimated.
Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 04:36
In an essay I wrote discussing losses at Manzikert, I did identify that certain Turkish units (obviously not the Uz, who defected) and the Varangian guard accompanying the Emperor were practically wiped out to a man. Aside from these, the only other real casualties were the Armenian right wing and some of the Russian cavalry on the Byzantine left. The rest managed to get away well enough.
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 407
  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 04:46
Thnx Constantine-can u give me the link about this ?
Is it clarified this in the sources,or it came after research ?
It would be reasonable though, because Varangians were an infantry unit,and also quiet heavy armored.
On the other hands most other Byzantine units ,as well as Turkish consisted of cavalry.
Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 05:38
This essay, which I regard as reliable, discusses the battle and its implications. Reference is made to which units were destroyed, which escaped and which avoided combat outright. Enjoy!

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/markham.htm
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 407
  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 06:07
     
I would like to read the reference in the source about the Varangian guards.(if there is any).

The essay is the far more detailed and full inscription of the Battle-(as a whole).
Awsome.
     

Edited by Brainstorm - 16-Oct-2006 at 06:09
Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1231
  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 07:07
 The source Constantine XI provided is exactly the one I read when I said that not all of the Varangians were present at Manzikert, where it offers casualty figures, it states that;
 
6.      Romanus Diogenes and the Varangian Guard were defeated and captured.  We must assume that most of the Varangians were killed as Alp Arslan provided Romanus with a new escort of troops (although such a gesture was customary).  Even so, no more than 500 Varangians can have present at Manzikert as there was still a Varangian contingent at Constantinople to acclaim Michael VIII Ducas. 
 
 The reason for some of the Varangians remaining behind I assume was to ensure that a loyal unit was present in the capital whilst the Emperor was away on campaign. The fact they later sided with Ducas may have something to do with the uncertainty behind the Emperors fate and the time it took him to return provided ample opportunity for rivals.
 
 In any event, this article which I think is a sound also, reinforces a belief i've had for sometime now, that Manzikert was not as disasterous at it has been made out. The vast majority of the Byzantine army escaped, much of the army didn't even fight in the battle, the Byzantines did not just blunder into destruction or were defeated because the Turks were markedly superior. Treachery more than anything contributed to this defeat and Romanus whilst not being perfect suffered a cruel and unfair fate. Had he been allowed to retain his throne I believe much damage to the empire would of been averted.
 
 The political turmoil and absolutely scandalous concessions in territory made, nevermind the treaty signed were far worse than this defeat alone, there was no reason why Anatolia couldnt have been recovered and the Seljuks crushed. That failure was the failure of Romanus' successors, not Romanus himself nor was it entirely due to Manzikert.
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
bggeneral View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 30-Oct-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote bggeneral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 09:42
    At least one Varagian group take place in the wars of Basyl against the Bulgaria in 11th century. And at least once they save the day in the battle in Traianovi vrata. Battle was almost win for Bulgarian king Samuel, but in this moment "Crazy nordic people payed from Byzantines emperor come in fight and nothing can stop there moving". Sorry, I cannot remember the name of the chief of this group, but is famous in Scandinavia. Even Discovery channel have movie for this person.
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 08-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1943
  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 13:45
Back to Top
Turk Nomad View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 11-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 228
  Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 14:51
Originally posted by Brainstorm

Originally posted by Heraclius



Originally posted by Turk Nomad

Pechenegs and Cumans are Turks friend
 

Well,ı heard in battle of Manzikert(1071),there were varangians in Bryzantine army.They all killed by Turkmens...
 The whole of the Varangians wernt present, many remained in Constantinople, although those who did participate in the battle almost certainly died to the man, which is honourable as they would often fight to the death, although its certain to mean they recieve greater casualties when things went wrong. Fair play to the Turks though, those who fought for Byzantium at Manzikert remained loyal and were killed pretty much to the man to. *friends* as you claim, didn't stop them being defeated.

    
Certainly killed?Why?
Most of the Byzantine army retreated after Mantzikiert battle.
The casualties are prooven overestimated.
 
Man only barbarian races like franks escaped because they didn't want fight with Turks,or some other race...They ddin't want to fight for Bryzantines.After ths brabarian escapes,150000 population bryzantine army was now 110-120000,and after Pecheneg Turks joined the Turks side,this number was nearly 100000.
 
But Turk army was only nearly 50000.
 
Varangians were very brave and heroic warriors,but the warriors they fought against also heroic...They fought and dead.
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 407
  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 09:25
click on the link that is given above.

The numbers u provide are false.

The Byzantine soldiers who finally took part where less than 20.000 and the Seljuks a bit less than 15.000


Back to Top
Turk Nomad View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 11-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 228
  Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 10:02
LoLLOL
 
Dont believe every link =).
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.