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Phallanx
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Topic: What does Greek sound like to a non speak Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 17:10 |
Originally posted by Pete
]
I do not see which bit of what I said was not correct |
I think that it's quite clear, but anyway, I 'll try to explain what I mean.
You mentioned 'Kathareuousa', that has nothing to do with this "change" since it happened in 'Koine'.
Kathareuousa' wasn't created untill the 19th cent (Adam. Korais). While
all these correct changes in the verb's suffix you provide,
happened with the 'adoption/creation' of 'Koine' during the conquests
of Alexander.
That's what I mean by partialy correct, it was only about the dates, not the changes you provide.
Edited by Phallanx
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Pete
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Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 22:05 |
Phallanx,
What I said was that the -mi verbs existed in ancient
Greek but not in Kathareuousa, that was all.
That is why many Greeks today who can read
Kathareuousa fluently are not at all familiar with
such class of verbs; they disappeared very early:
they were already a dwindling minority in Classical
Greek (and, even then, most -mi verbs also
appeared, alternatively, as -w.)
I do not think we disagreed on anything. Well, 'Great
minds think alike' , as the English saying goes...
Edited by Pete
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BirTane
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 08:12 |
teneke -tenekes -tinchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>
tepsi-tapsi-baking tin>>
tugla-tuvlo-brick>>
veresiye-verese-on credit>>
zar-zari-die>>
vernik-verniki-varnish>>
tufek-toufeki-kind of gun>>
yaka-yakas-collar>>
yali-yalos-shore>>
zor-zori-force, trouble, difficulty>>
torba-dorvas-kind of bag>>
yelek-yileko-waist coat>>
vaftiz-vaftisi-baptism>>
siftah-seftes-first sale of the day>>
takim-takimi-(set, team) (gr. the good friend)>>
supya-soupia-cuttlefish>>
takoz-takos-wedge>>
tavan-tavani-ceilling>>
susam-susami-sesame>>
soba-soba-stove>>
sokak-sokaki-street (gr.the small street)>>
Somya-so(u)mies-bedstead>>
soy-soi-relatives>>
tel-teli-chord>>
tembel-tembelis-lazy>>
temel-themelio-foundation>>
tencere-tentzeris-kinf of pot>>
tapa-tapa-cork, stopper>>
sunger-sfungari-spong>>
serbet-serbeti-sherbet>>
pide-pita-pita>>
recine-retsini-resin>>
salya-salia-saliva>>
salyangoz-saliangos (or salingari)-snail>>
rezil-rezili-ridiculed, embaressement>>
sabun-sapuni-soap>>
samata-samatas-noise>>
semer-samari-saddle>>
sakat-sakatis-cripple>>
seyran-seriani-walk, stroll>>
siva-sovas (suvas)-plaster>>
rahat-rahati-rest, relaxation>>
Obvious that the words underlined are greek...what about the others...can you recognize which are greek?
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Guests
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 08:17 |
Most of the others are from Turkish and some Turkicized Arabic words.
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BirTane
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 08:32 |
Originally posted by Oguzoglu
Most of the others are from Turkish and some Turkicized Arabic words. |
Yes Oguzoglu...i m just asking which are greek...if there is any beside the underlined...it might be not very obvious which are, as the word tefter...seems to be turkish, or arabic but is greek.
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BirTane
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 08:35 |
for example...salya...from the greek sialos
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 10:00 |
tufek-toufeki-kind of gun | Tofang (Tof+Ang) = Pea-shooter
zor-zori-force, trouble, difficulty | Zur ( Avestan Zaor) = Force, Power
Torbar (Tor+Bar) = Goods-Bearer
sokak-sokaki-street (gr.the small street) | Koikak (Koik+ak) = Small Street
Tanbal (Tan+Bal) = Self-indulgent [Tan=Body]
and there are Arabic:
sabun-sapuni-soap serbet-serbeti-sherbet seyran-seriani-walk, stroll rahat-rahati-rest, relaxation |
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Guests
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 11:05 |
Sokak is Turkish Cyrus, it comes from the verb "sokmak". But maybe this word was derived to replace the Persian usage of the word, so derived to a similar form to Persian. Because we have lots of suffixes in Turkish to create new words, because of our language's structure (suffixes and additions to word endings).
I thought Sabun was Persian or Greek since it looks IE.
"Soy" "tel" and "semer" are definately Turkish...
Edited by Oguzoglu
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Yiannis
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 11:15 |
Doesn't sabun derive from ancient greek "sapon"?
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 11:32 |
You are right about "Sabun", it is an Arabic word but comes from Greek "Sapon".
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Kenaney
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 11:38 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
tufek-toufeki-kind of gun |
Tofang (Tof+Ang) = Pea-shooter
zor-zori-force, trouble, difficulty |
Zur (Avestan Zaor) = Force, Power
Torbar (Tor+Bar) = Goods-Bearer
sokak-sokaki-street (gr.the small street) |
Koikak (Koik+ak) = Small Street
Tanbal (Tan+Bal) = Self-indulgent [Tan=Body]
and there are Arabic:
sabun-sapuni-soap serbet-serbeti-sherbet seyran-seriani-walk, stroll rahat-rahati-rest, relaxation |
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Did you know you proud Persians took more Turkish words then you gave it to Turkish??
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BirTane
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 11:39 |
bodrum - mpodroumi -[ ıpodromos ()] (dungeon)
mantar - manitari - [amanite ()] (mushroom)
cupra- tsipura - [ipuros (), ipura, posessıve case tis/ipuras ] (gilthead)
pavurya - kavuri -[pavuros] (crab)
Edited by BirTane
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Menippos
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 11:40 |
I will remove the non-Greek words:
tufek-tyfekion = rifle
yali-aigialos = shore
vaftiz-vaptismos = wetting
supya-soupia = cuttlefish
temel-themelio = foundation
sunger-spoggos = sponge
recine-ritini = resin
salya-sielon = saliva
salyangoz-salingx= snail
sabun-sapon = soap
Edited by Menippos
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CARRY NOTHING
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BirTane
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 11:45 |
mennipe why you removed the vaftiz....?
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Kenaney
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 11:51 |
Originally posted by BirTane
mennipe why you removed the vaftiz....? |
tufek-tyfekion = rifle yali-aigialos = shore vaftiz-vaptismos = wetting supya-soupia = cuttlefish temel-themelio = foundation sunger-spoggos = sponge recine-ritini = resin salya-sielon = saliva salyangoz-salingx= snail sabun-sapon = soap
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BirTane
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 14:08 |
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Phallanx
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 14:22 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
You are right about "Sabun", it is an Arabic word but comes from Greek "Sapon". |
I did a little search on Hellinic words that passed to the Arabic lang.
either through Aramaic or direct loans when the Arabs translated the
Hellinic texts.
F.SAGREDO tells us that :
"La lingua aramea... la mitad de su vocabulario era griego" (half of the Aramaic vocabulary is Greek)
We also know of Ibn Rosd's (sp?) (changed his name to ) texts that were destroyed for containig too many Hellinic words.
Pease do correct any spelling mistakes.
Arabic - Hellinic - meaning
giorou ->= see
koulous -> (the "" rough breathing turns into "k")=whole
al iksir-> = medical term 'to rub with oils'
demas ->=bodily frame
bear-> =son (fero= to bear give birth)
dalal->= crier, preacher
->afantiat = authority
->azm = asthma
->qouroynfol = carnation
->jins = gender, breed, race
->ishkal = dificulty
-> ayqonna = image
->intubbaa = impression
->haymana = reign
->thamael = base, foundation
->quamin = oven, furnace
->quannoun = rule, law
->iqllim = climate
->louga = word
->naoyloyn = fare
->namous = law
-> akhttaboutt (note the boutt from ) octopus
->ballatt = palace
->rahha = ridge,breast
-> fanous = light
->shamandour = seal, sign, herdsman
->ryaq = streem
->iskim = shape
-> taqnia = technique
->oqyanos = ocean
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Pete
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 15:27 |
The words in BirTanes list are a mixture, but the
vast, vast majority are Turkish (in the sense that
Greek got them from Turkish), and some, before
being Turkish, were/are Arabic (rahat, susam, etc.)
or Persian (zor, tembel, etc.).
I do not have an etymological dictionary or books on
etymology here at home, so I cannot check anything
- although one has to be careful, because nationalist
ideologies have occasionally led writers of all
countries to make up etymologies: in the past,
Turkish linguists claimed that rota came from
Turkish yrt(mek), Greek linguists claimed that
(h)ayde came from Greek agete, etc.
I think (without certainty) tufek(i) is not originally
Greek but Turkish, and that sokak(i) is originally
Arabic, not Persian and not Turkish - although it
exists in Turkish and Greek and [if you tell me so] in
Persian [I do not know Persian].
The only word in the list (besides those that you
guys pointed out already) that I though was originally
Greek is pide/pita. I have read somewhere that
it is one of those back-and-forth words (Ancient
Greek pykte > Latin picta > Modern Greek
pitta.
Etymologies are great fun, but you cannot build
the number of foreign words into a we are better
argument. Please let us not start with "look how
many words we gave you" / no, you took more
words from me than I did from you!
I really think that
1) Turkish gave more words (directly) to Greek than
Greek(directly) to Turkish
2) Persian gave more words to Turkish that Turkish
to Persian
3) Arabic gave more words to Turkish (and probably
Persian) than Turkish (and probably Persian) gave
to Arabic.
But so what? But my point is: okay, maybe
Language A gave more words to Language B - but
what is that supposed to prove anyway? One could
claim it was the result of nasty domination, another
could say it was the result of cultural superiority. I
think it is openmindedness: if your neighbour has a
useful new object or concept, it would be stupid not
to adopt it. Why should that be shameful? Should the
Greeks not have adopted coffee and some (now)
traditional dishes from the Turks? Can you imagine
what a loss that would be? Can you imagine Greeks
today without kefi and kafes? Turkish words,
of course - which, by the way, Turkish took from
Arabic, and so on. Similar exchanges happen in all
fields, from music to art, from philosophy to
technology.
As we often see in literature, you can take someone
elses original creation and you can make
something good - sometimes even better. The
Ancient Greeks got cultural and literary inspiration
from the East, and developed it into one of the
highest civilization that ever existed - certainly not an
unoriginal one. Ancient Greek writers also kept
taking ideas (plots, characters, styles) from each
other, and the literature they wrote as a result kept
getting better and better. Some of the best things
written in Medieval Greek literature are taken from
French and Italian models. Modern Greek literature
took some inspiration from French and English
literature too. Why is that a problem?
And anyway... why should the actions of our (maybe)
ancestors (or our passport) determine if we,
personally, individually, are to be admired or not?
Edited by Pete
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Menippos
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 18:40 |
Guys I am sick and tired of reading personal accounts of what people believe is the truth.
When I entered this forum, what attracted me was the academic research
some people had done in posing their views and the way it was presented.
No offence to anyone, this is a general comment.
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CARRY NOTHING
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Phallanx
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Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 18:50 |
Just to clear any probable misunderstandings, what I present is based
on the linguistic research of Anna Tziropoulou Eustathiou found in her
book 'ELLHN LOGOS'.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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