To me it sounds a little like Dutch in a way, rather plain, no fancy romance pronounciation like Italian, no smoothness like French, more 'down to earth' maybe. If I'd hear it at a very low volume in the background at some place where it wouldn't make sense, I'd mistake it for Dutch

Anyway it doesn't sound like a mixture to me, it sounds more distinct.

To an Italian ear, Greek sounds certainly "Mediterranean" (comparatively fewwell-distinct vowels, not that mess there is in languages like English or French, and a certain "harmony" of the pronunciation . . .) , with a distinct "Eastern" inflection: I could confuse it with Turkish, not with Spanish.

Originally posted by Gazi As a Turk living in Anatolia Greek doesnt sound alien to me as Turks and Greeks have intermingled and lived together for hundreds of years.Consequently there are many Greek words in Turkish.(of course they have been altered slightly)And there are probably quite a few Turkish words in Greek as well.

Yeah, you are quite right. There are lots of common words in both languages. Greek has lots of Turkish words and Turkish has lots of Greek words.

For example in Turkish most of the words about sea, sailing, fish and islands in Turkish are from Greek or Italian. And in Greek most of the words about military, musical insturments, lots of food and object names are Turkish originated. Also some heavy insult words are common btw Turkish and Greek.

It is proved that about 13,000 Turkish words are used in Greek, and more than 10,000 Greek words exist in Turkish. Mostly the sound "ch", "gh" and "sh" in Turkish became "is", "si", "tsz" "ki", "g" in Greek.

Now this is intriguing

Please name a few (other forumers won't mind since they don't understand!)

Is "malaka" one of them?

PS

It's however strange to compare it with Turkish, since these languages belong to entirelly different language trees. But you're right, we share many words (mainly for nouns)

But when I was in Iran, I could sometimes  mistake what was spoken at a distance as Greek (at least the sound of it)!

 Sure I will write them if this doesnt disturb other members (I dont think they would be disturbed.)

I dont know if "malaka" is in common use, but I know its meaning and usage as "vre malaka" but I heard "pazavank", "kerata", "orospu", "pich", "hassiktir", kerhaneci (karanagi?) are used with small differences in Greek.

I love this topic

Malaka is THE most common "bad word" in Greek. It's comparable to "wanker" and is a Greek word.

"Keratas" refers to "cheated husband", where does it come from in Turkish?

pazavank, orospu", "pich & karanagi I don't recognize, but of course we use "ai sihtir"  (what does it mean? go to hell?)

I said I wasnt sure about all of them, maybe they are used in Greek in some different structures. But I am sure about kerata and hasiktir

I didnt say these words were loaned from Turkish, I said these were common, but I am not sure about their origins. But I know that Greeks use "Malaka" like the word "fu** in English.

About the militarical names, did you know that the current army system  in most of todays modern armies of tens are originated from old Hunnic system found by Mete Han (MaoDun), who was a Turkic warior king? So some soldier types' names (for ex: akinci, sipahi, s�vari, etc.) are all loaned from Turkish.

I cant deny the enormous number of Greek originated and modified words in Turkey Turkish, but there are even more Turkish words used in current Greek, maybe not used oftenly but exist. This is the normal exchanging after more than a thousand years of life together...

Can we focus on the real issue, that is the "bad words"?

No-one has answered my question on the literal meaning of "ai sihtir" (as Greeks say). When used in Greece it has a meaning of "piss off" or "get lost"...

But apart for that one, I haven't found other curses with Turkish origin. Perhaps I have to dig deeper in my vocabulary!

Ai siktir?

Do people really use that in greece?

Bloody hell, YES!

But will somebody explain me what does it mean?!!! PM me if it's too socking...

Its something like Oh F**k.

But we also sometimes say hassiktir instead of assiktir but its not different.

It means;

F***k off,oh s**t.

Sik=pe**s(in argo) or in this meaning to f**k

hassiktir can be used as an argo expression to a bad situation.

You can also use it to tell someone to go away mare er-insultingly

We also have mal but not malaka.

Kerata is also used

pezevank=pimp

orospu=prostitiute(in a very bad lingo)

pezevank is used by Cypriots as pezevengis, and it means exactly what kerata means here in Hellas.
Yiannis may remember the old song

"ta rialia, rialia, rialia
ta selinia mona kai dipla,
ta monolira, pentolira kai pou'nta
o pezevengis pou ta'xei stin pouga"

So they used the word "pezevenk" in a song?? What a shame for the singer!

Mal.I'm talking about mal.Changed though.

Oguzoglu for example:

"Lan mal herif!"

See how it fits

Conguradilations. You are creative, but the word "mal" in Turkish morely referres to a person without improved understanding ability potential. So the words malaka and mal cant be the same word's versions, since midification at this level is not very possible...

Way to go

Why did you need to tease us? Akinci only thought the word can be a common word in both Turkish and Greek (he didnt even say that the word was derived from an original Turkish word) and I told him that the two words had nothing to do with each other. I didnt even claim that the word was a common word or originally was Turkish. So what's the problem?

Originally posted by ak?P>Ai siktir? Do people really use that in greece? [/QUOTE My mother all the time(!)

My mother all the time(!)

Actually, there used to be many Turkish words in every day vocabulary of Greeks in the 19th century, right after the liberation from the Ottomans and the founding of our state. There were many Italian ones as well, especially many naval or military terms. The standardization process of the language omitted many of them, since the hellenistike koine which had survived as the language of the Church (and is still in use) and its later product, the katharevousa, were chosen to replace common words of Turkish or other foreign root.

Makriyannis, the well known Greek warlord who wrote the memoirs of his experiences throughout his adventurous life, recorded many words in his text that are usually not understood by modern Greeks.

Such words are: "hapsi" (Turkish for prison), "yemeklikia" (Turkish for food supplies), "disbarko" (Italian for landing), "tebihi" (Arabic for warning), "jebhanes" (Turkish for ammo), "sunditos" (Italian for national citizen), "contrato" (Italian for contract), "morosa" (Italian for lover, girlfriend), "gidi" (Turkish for pimp ) and many others.

I recall my father telling me that my great grandmother used to say to people who were idle: "Don't sit there like a bimbashi". I looked the word up and I found out that it was an Ottoman military rank. Today it is used to describe a major.

Dont sit like a binbashi? That's interesting, binbashi means "the head/chief of a thousand (men/soldiers)" in Turkic militaries. But I have never heard of it being used as kind of a teasing word.

Many people also where you used to live, claim also Alexander was an Albanian so the guiberish that ancient greek sounds like...ehm Albanian doesnt impress anyone anymore.

Originally posted by vulkan02  doesn't everyone in the Balkans claim that

Really?? Have you heard Serbs claiming Alexander was Serbian? or Croats claiming the same?? Man, you really have lost contact with reality.

I know malaka is Greek but we say also "olm sen salakmisin malakmi?"

So they are Turkish words in Greek and Greek words in Turkish, but lol first time i hear the word "ha siktir" they use in Greece    

"ai siktir" is one of the most common insults in Greece. Especially if you are a driver you will hear of it from other drivers hundrends of time.

very fluid.

chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>

The expression �ais-iktir� or �ais-ihtir� or �as-iktir� which in Turkish is written �has siktir� is not certain that originates from the Turkish language, many opinions say that originates from the Hellenic. To me the etymology explanation of those who support this idea is persuasive.>>

> >

In Turkish �has siktir!� as a friend wrote in the forum means �it is a royal penis!� I can imagine what can mean as an insult�.but I have a small question�the meaning does not fit neither with the way that Turks use it neither with what they wanna express by saying it.>>

ASiktir derives from the Greek �as iktiro� (�� �������) which means �lets have mercy on you� in order to express the anger of someone for another...something like�may God help me and have pity on you and not say something bad to you�or something like�lets take pity on you and send you away instead of starting to insult you. >>

> 

Other common �bad-words� between Turks and Greeks as far as I know�

>> 

>

Also ın greek many Turkish words are used as bad-words even in Turkish are just words.>>

All the above were in use in the past and now stopped or are still in use. Mostly of Turkish origin. Maybe our turkısh friends can help more....hadi....

I've heard of the possible connection between "Oiktiro" and "Ai siktir" but I think it's coincidental (not sure though). Perhaps indeed our Turkish forum members can look a bit more on this.

Some of the other words that you mention are almost never used.

E.g. no one used Kaltaka as an expression, everyone used the word "putana" which derives from Italian and less often the Greek expression "porni".

I have never heard the words: "Sikeme", "Kiopeki", "kahpe" or "serseri" but "Poustis" or "tsoglani" are very widelly used insults, almost totally replaced the original Greek words.

Phallanx,

"ai siktir" is a Turkish originated thing. You say "ai", but we say "has" in Turkish, and you know what "sik" means in Turkish, I dont have to explain it here. "tir" is a Turkish addition to identify something specifically. and "Ai siktir" is a very general Turkish word, loaned by Greek.

I dont have any ideas of what those words mean, but it is clear that we dont use most of them in Turkish.

But Greeks have lonaed more words than Turkish loaned from Greek. Turkish was mainly influenced with Arabic and Persian, but Greek was mainly influenced with Turkish and Italian, Roman, and even a bit of Persian.

Your "sariki" comes from the Turkish word "sarik". It is derived from the verb root of "sarmak" (the same verb root of the food 'sarma'). "-�k" is a Turkish addition to create new words, for specific meanings.

So "sarik" means something that is covered,winded, surrounded etc. in Turkish. If you know "Karniyarikis", originally "Karni yarik" in Turkish, you will see the similarity with the words "sarik" and "yarik". "Yarmak" is also a verb in Turkish, and "yarik" is derived from it... 

Greek cuisine is mainly influenced with Turkish, altough the sea food and sailing words are mostly of Greek/Italian origin. "Dolmas, bureki, sarmas, imambayildiki, tatsik (cac�k), kadayif (in fact, a middle Eastern food), ayrani, kapuska etc." are some common foods that are adopted by Greek from Turkish.

And I am sure most of us here have reached the "tsakir-kefi" (�ak�r keyif in Turkish) level of drinking...

As all of us Turkish forumers are very wise about it, there is no such word/insult "malaka" used in Turkish. We have millions of other insulting, swaring words we use. But they are mostly of Turkish, and a little bit Arabic origin. For example, we usually use the word "ibne" as an insult meaning gay or feminime, but it means his daughter or some similar thing in Arabic...

And it is damn funny that we are analysing sware words gramatically, and discussing about them in an international history forum...

Hayvan is Turkish? I had no clue. Oh man my mom uses it on me everyday.  

Dear Yannis....all these that i said about asihtir is not my etymology....but of scientists...maybe they have wrong maybe not. Lets not be absolute in what we say.

I dont know your age and of course neither of the rest in the foroum...i said that these words and others started years ago to vanish, and depends in which area someone is living in Greece. Believe me that in North Greece where more refugees from Turkey came, thes words were in the daily life.

The Greeks in my school use that word ever other sentence or more. I still don't have a good definition of it...

Simple: used between friends and in a friendly tone it has a friendly meaning, use it  to a stranger and it's an invitation for a -serious- fight. It's better never ot use it anyway, since it's equivalent to "wanker"....

I travel a lot and I'm continously mistaken for a Spaniard, but mainly when I speak in English.

You're right, people told me that as well! Actually Israeli people said that to me...

Phallanx,

First of all, all of my grammatic explanations of Turkish origins in my last post are right. You can ask them to any single Turk, even the anti-Turkish ones. All linguistic information is correct, and those show the enormous Turkish influence on Greeks and their language.

And those words of Niagara, etc. are jokes we tell each other in anectodes, and I am very serious. These arent serious Turkic/Turkish researches, these are just funny. Noone believes and cares about these except some Greeks trying to prove us we believe those things.

...

So he is the one to teach me what my language is all about? We know what is our language and hw unique it is, it is our own language, that we inherited from our own ancestors, and a little foreign vocabulary. But you should worry about what your language really is, because you speak a derived version of Ancient Iranic language with a huge Turkish and Italian vocabulary in it. At least we dont speak other nations' languages, but our own. Face it please, you speak your version of Indo European languages (Persian origin), but we speak our own language of Altaic languages, Turkic origin, with a little Arabic and Persian vocabulary support. And even  most of those Arabic and Persian words were derived by Turks in their grammer during Ottoman time...

In the post Turkish independence period, with the studies of Ataturk and Turkish Language Institution, the Turkish language reform took place and lots of new Turkish words were derived from the old Turkic roots. If you look at the structure of altaic languages, they are the easiest languages to derive new words. They are very systematical, and regular.

The Ottoman language was very like our current Turkish, but the language of the government and the palace was way different from the language spoken all over the empire. The language of the palace was mainly influenced with Arabic and Persian, but definately not Greek.

Altough, after the hundreds of years of Turkish rule over them, Greeks and their language was way different than the original. Greek language was heavily influenced with especially Turkish and Italian. And the enormous Turkish influence, both cultural and linguistically on Europe cannot be denied after those hundreds of years of Turkish authority.

Modern Greek appears in verse from the 12th century and was creatively adapted in Cretan Renaissance literature. The question of a national language did not arise, however, until the 19th century with the emergence of the newly independent Greek state. Katharevousa ("purifying" Greek), an artificial compromise between the archaizing and the spoken forms, was imposed as the official language from 1834 until 1976. After 1976, demotike, the language used in speech and creative literature, became the officially taught language. Katharevousa is now used in official documents. The division between them has its roots in the first centuries of the present era and presents a series of ever-changing oppositions that affect both speech and writing. The four major dialect groups--Peloponnesian, Northern Greek, Cretan, and Dodecanesian-Cypriot--all derive from the Hellenistic koine.

The principal changes that distinguish modern Greek are superseding of pitch-accent by stress; further iotacism of vowels; transforming the voiced plosives b and d to the voiced fricatives v and dh; loss of modal particles; and less variable word order because of replacement of pitch-accent by stress. Morphological groups that were originally distinct have become unified, with a consequent reduction in the number of inflections. Its vocabulary remains basically Greek, with many Latin loanwords and later borrowings, but mainly from Turkish and Italian.

In vocabulary, Modern Greek vernacular is characterized by the use of a large number of words borrowed directly from foreign languages, especially from Italian, Turkish, and French, and by a great facility for combining words. The purists, however, avoid the use of foreign words, preferring to meet the demand for new words to express new concepts by coining words based on analogous Ancient Greek expressions, striving at all times to preserve the Ancient Greek forms and idioms.

It is tempting to assume that Turkish food is like Greek food where actually the reverse is true due to 400 years of Turkish rule.  The Turkish Empire once covered southeastern Europe, Anatolia and the Arab world.  In 1680 the Turks helped Hungarian rebels against the Habsburg (Austrian) rule and Vienna was under siege by Turkish armies in 1683.  In 1483 parts of Greece were under Turkish rule and remained so until the 19th century.  

Such 'typically' Greek hallmarks such as the bouzouki, ouzo, and mez�des are just a few examples of Turkish influence.  The bouzouki is an instrumental variation of the saz (kopuz), a member of the lute family brought by the Turks to the Balkan and Greek countries. Ouzo is Greek style raki, and many other famous 'Greek' dishes are really Turkish in origin. Mez�des is a word derived from the Turkish 'meze' which means appetizers or hors d�oeuvre.  > The well-known Greek 'dolmadakia' or stuffed grape leaves is of Turkish origin (dolmak is a verb in Turkish meaning  'to fill or stuff'.)>

Toward the end of the Ottoman rule, the Greeks suffered harshly and are naturally resentful of any mention of Turkish influence.  Still one cannot intelligently deny that the food, bouzouki music and of course the dance (especially the sirtaki) is more Turkish than Greek.  There are hardly any pre-Ottoman manuscripts on Greek music or food as it was prior to Ottoman occupation.  One of the oldest cookbooks written is Turkish and dates from 700 AD.> >

>>Turkish cuisine (palace cuisine) was so advanced in the Ottoman dynasty (1299 to 1923), highly developed and specialized that very little foreign influence occurred until Turkish foreign policy opened to the western world (French and English).  The use a bechamel sauce is an example of French influence.> >

Thanks for the update Oquzoglu. It's now clear to me how come and we have so many Central-Asian dishes in Greek cuisine. As you mention, stuffed vineleaves are a prime example of Altaic cooking.

About the music, what can I say? It seems that you never wondered why traditional Ottoman music is so close to Greek Orthodox psalm or why the system used to write it is still the Byzantine one...

In any case, the truth is that many civilization co-existed in this part of the world and left traces on one another.

The bouzouki is an instrumental variation of the saz (kopuz), a member of the lute family brought by the Turks to the Balkan and Greek countries

I will dissapoint you here...buzuki of course has turkish name...no doubt about it but the mother of buzuki as also of saz and many other similar instruments is the ancient "Pandora" , of greek origin

This is your language not ours. A huge part of Turkish language is Persian, something that can be seen by counting the words without phonetic armony.  And many of the words that we have from Turkish is not actually all from Turkish but from Arabs, loans that both Turks and Greeks took from them.

many of arabic words are loan from greek language....as tefter, kalem, kafa, and many others.

Thats true...

Partly true...but the current Turks difficult to understand the old Turkish...because had more influences from Arabs.

Yes we had great influence..is normal...but you had also. ...But 20 years now this changed...we use only few words in our daily life wich derives from Turkish...we know thw words but we replaced them from ours...like cakmak...now we say anaptiras.

It is not like that. Anyone can read all these types of Greeks, and to understand it very well, except some words which do not support anymore in daily life.

Ah zamanim yok! I will answer you in time..I m trying also to find in English article...Turks and Greeks published a lexikon with the Turkish words in Greek language and the opposite and i will dissapointed also here, you have more Greeks in yours than we have Turkish in ours. But they are not so many ...neither for us neither for you, as much as I remember range between 1700-2200 words. Not so many for making us fighting )))))).

kendine iyi bak...

Hi BirTane, nice to meet you here..

I see that you speak Turkish, and your username is turkish too. I am curious, where do you live, and where/how did you learn Turkish?

Sen de kendine iyi bak, zaman bulduk�a yaz...

Phallanx,

Yes Phallanx, Ottomans adopted Greeks their language by force, and closed all Greek elementary schools because they were child hater imperialists. Greeks were enforced to eat Turkish food, listen Turkish music and adopt Turkish words. The Ottomans even invented slanted eye machines to change Greeks into Turanoids...

And we have a Sun God Theory (not Sun Language, please dont misunderstand it) and we believe Greeks immigrated to current Greek lands from Altay region, Eastern Kazakhstan. And Ottomans massacred millions of Greeks because they hated poor innocent Greek citizens of their empire.

And please, can you give me the web adress of that online dictionary? I am very curious...

Please Phallanx, say what you wanna say, I am open to your bannable insults. You should vomit your hatred freely, and get rid of your historical paranoias.

Me, wanna be Mongol? Why should I want to? I am a Turk, and I know we are closer to Mongols, our cousins, than we are closer to Slavic mix Greeks. This is the fact and noone can deny it. In fact, you are a wanna be Greek who is half Slavic and half Turkish. What you inherited from your ancient Greek ancestors is only their names, even not their language. We are Turanoids, and we are not Greeks, so as you arent. Kapish??

Me, illiterate? You, the kid who cannot even realize the theory is called "The Sun Language Theory", not the "Ancient Egyptian Sun God Theory" after thousands of posts about it, are blaming me with being illiterate. Grow up little hateful boy. You possibly have a thick skull that doesnt let information pass easily to your brain...

You, a Greek, come here and try to teach me a past theory of ours. Ok boy, please, be my Turkish teacher. Firstly, I wanna learn some Turkish grammer. Teach it please...

And you have proved me once you being illiterate. I asked the web adrees of that site, not your home's adrees, so dont worry, I dont want to be your guest, I just want to visit that web page and read what your claims are, and then judge their trulyness.

Originally posted by Menippos How come and this thread has turned into another greco-turko-whateverelse conflict again??? Moderators, please....

I think so Menippos. This is a rediculous thing to change regular topics into national and personal wars, but please, read the posts above, and objectively, tell me who started this by changing the discussion into an attacking base?

What to expect from a Turk to say..Anyway, all people live on earth. It's very difficult for a nation not to mix up with others. But the main point is what the extent of the mix and the influence is and if the DNA of the people has changed significantly or not. It's stupid to say all these without having evidence. Go and check some researches about Greek people. You'll see that Greeks are a pure nation like most of the european nations. Some ignorant and blind people (from all the countries) always say inaccuracies only to show their hatred about the others. It doesn't work!