Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
|
Topic: Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide? Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 19:09 |
Originally posted by mamikon
no, the fact that they are on the website make the pictures inherently biased, untrustworthy and false,
|
Would you apply the same standards to the pictures on the ANI website?
not because they are taken by Turks (which they are) |
How do you know they are taken by Turks?
|
|
|
mamikon
Sultan
Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 19:19 |
The Armenian Political Parties at that were legal, and the government had
lists of their members; it could easily have taken action only againt those
it actually deemed suversive. For this information I am indebted to Norair
Pahlavouni of the U.S.I.A., formerly a member of the Dashnak central
committee.
-Davis
|
|
bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 19:36 |
Originally posted by prsn41ife
are you serious? turkey joined the war voluntarily.
|
There was no Turkey at the time, there was the Ottoman Empire, of which the lands of modern Turkey were then a part.
Not only did the Turks have nothing to do with the decision taken by the Ottoman leadership to join the war, but in fact the Turkish resistance lead by Ataturk fought against that same Ottoman leadership and put an end to its centuries long rein by the proclamation of the Republic.
|
|
|
mamikon
Sultan
Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 20:13 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by mamikon
no, the fact that they are on the
website make the pictures inherently biased, untrustworthy and false,
|
Would you apply the same standards to the pictures on the ANI
website?
not because they are taken by Turks (which they are) | [/
P]
How do you know they are taken by Turks? |
actually good point, when I clicked on one I thought I read a Turkish
name, I cant find it now, but I will continue looking through it. However I
made an amazing discovery thanks to you.
For "albums" one and two the source is "The Armenian Aspirations and
Revolutionary Movements", which it seems is a nameless propoganda
picture book. I searched on google and got this, among some Turkish
sites.
Box: 1 Fold: 58 Armenia, Booklet
(1915-20?)
DESCRIPTION: 1 booklet, "The Armenian: Aspirations and Revolutionary
Movements," mainly consisting of propaganda photographs with
descriptions in English, German, French, and Arabic. References to the
Tachnaksootioun Revolutionary Committee, the Social Democratic
Hintchak Committee, and Kevork V, Catholicos of all Armenians.
The other albums give the following sources "Massacre Exerted By The
Armenian On The Turks During World War I Pictures" and "Armenian
Church and terrosrism".
http://www.library.georgetown.edu/dept/speccoll/fl/f169%7D2. htm
Difference between these and Wegner's pictures?
Note how it says WEGNER's pictures...as in picture made by Wegner, what
he witnessed...not an album composed by the Turkish government to fool
its people...and why is it even on the site of the Turkish Ministry of
Culture and Tourism...CULTURE - what does this have to do with
Armenian claims of Genocide. Or does the government put this on every
one of its sites...to greet the wonderer I guess...
again...now it really seems they are propoganda pictures.
PS: sorry I didnt link the website, but I am losing a fight with my browser
Edited by mamikon
|
|
mamikon
Sultan
Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 20:21 |
There was no Turkey at the time, there wasthe Ottoman Empire, of
which the lands of modern Turkey were then a part.
Not only did the Turks have nothing to do with the decision taken by
the Ottoman leadership to join the war, but in fact the Turkish resistance
lead by Ataturk fought against that sameOttoman leadership andput an
end to itscenturies long rein by the proclamation of the Republic.
____________________________________________________________
This just in: Turkey has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire ... again
we were at this a couple of pages back (or maybe on another thread), you
surely deny your Ottoman heritage when it comes to the ugly parts of
your past
PS: Sorry for the dashed line...no other choice
Edited by mamikon
|
|
Iranian41ife
Arch Duke
Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 20:25 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by prsn41ife
are you serious? turkey joined the war voluntarily.
|
There was no Turkey at the time, there was the Ottoman Empire, of which the lands of modern Turkey were then a part.
Not only did the Turks have nothing to do with the decision taken by the Ottoman leadership to join the war, but in fact the Turkish resistance lead by Ataturk fought against that same Ottoman leadership and put an end to its centuries long rein by the proclamation of the Republic.
|
wow, if this isnt the biggest history chaning statement i have ever read:
so you are saying turkey didnt exist as a nation? well turkey is mentioned in many books written before 1920, so it existed. Ottoman Empire just means the dynasty of the ottomans that ruled turkey.
for example, when people say sassanid empire, that just describes the dynasty, when in reality it was a persian empire.
and the only reason ataturk rebelled against hte ottomans was because of his nationalism, feeling that turkey had been disgraced and shamed and that he needed to change the government and westernise turkey. no because he wanted to overthrow the ottomans because they were "bad".
the fact is that turkey joined the war volunatrily, and therefore everything that came from that decision is solely the fault of turkey itself, for bringing itself into the war when it could have stayed neutral.
|
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
|
|
bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 22:07 |
Originally posted by mamikon
its people...and why is it even on the site of the Turkish Ministry of Culture and Tourism...CULTURE - what does this have to do with Armenian claims of Genocide. Or does the government put this on every one of its sites...to greet the wonderer I guess...
|
True, I also believe the state should leave the study of history to the historians, but when the Armenian state and Armenian lobbies abroad exert pressure on parliamentaries to vote over what occurred in history, you cannot really expect the Turkish state to remain indifferent to what the majority of its citizens view as a gross injustice against them.
again...now it really seems they are propoganda pictures.
|
The images are graphic and quite shocking so they certainly can be used for propaganda purposes.
Unless you claim that these images are fabrications, that they do not represent people killed by the armenians, that the persons on these images are not Turkish, I do not see how these images are false.
What kind of image is not a propaganda image in your opinion?
Concerning Armin Wegner's work, you are right. He was a true humanist and he has done a great service to humanity by revealing what the Armenians have experienced. If it was not for his picture we would have very few images of the suffering of the Armenians. Here is a biography of him:
http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous/bycountry/germany/wegner _armin_t.html
Massacres of genoicidal proportions against Armenians in the territories that were controlled by the Turks have occurred there is no doubt, and Armin Wegner was a witness of them, but this does not disprove the fact that equally horrific massacres have occurred in the terrritories under the control of the Russian.
Amin Wegner took his images when he was on a leave between July and August 1915. But what Amin Wegner did not witness were the horrendous massacres against muslims that had occurred months earlier in early May in Van during the Armenian revolt and its subsequent occupation by the Russians on 17th May. He could not have possibly witnessed these autrocities because they took part in territories that were under enemy occupation and Wegner was a German officer allied to the Ottoman Empire. All he saw was vengeful Turks comit unjustified reprisals against innocent Armenian civilians.
Edited by bg_turk
|
|
|
mamikon
Sultan
Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 22:19 |
Yes but that Ministry website jsut gives a vague reference, its
not even a reference. It doesnt say who took the picture, and
when...
ok, so lets assume there was a horrendous massacre in Van. Did it occur in every,
if it did, wouldnt you expect anyone, to take a picture. After all, it
would have been far easier to take pictures and leave country of
Armenian atrocities than of Turkish.
"True, I also believe the state should leave the study of history to
the historians, but when the Armenian state and Armenian lobbies abroad
exert pressure on parliamentaries to vote over what occurred in
history, you cannot really expect the Turkish state to remain
indifferent to what the majority of its citizens view as a gross
injustice against them."
is there another choice? Turkey had more than 70 years to come to terms with its past on its own, did it?
|
|
bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 22:55 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Yes but that Ministry website jsut gives a vague reference, its not even a reference. It doesnt say who took the picture, and when...
|
What do you mean it is not even a reference. The book can even be ordered here:
http://www.thomashaker.de/search.php4?term=the%20armenian%20 aspirations%20and%20revolutionary%20movements&PHPSESSID= a6522cbae5fcd079fcbab2bd90ba736a
ok, so lets assume there was a horrendous massacre in Van. |
Yes, there was, and as a result of it Van lost 62% of its muslim population.
Did it occur in every, if it did, wouldnt you expect anyone, to take a picture. After all, it would have been far easier to take pictures and leave country of Armenian atrocities than of Turkish.
|
What do you mean? There are pictures.
Turkey had more than 70 years to come to terms with its past on its own, did it?
|
Well, by distorting history, completely ignoring the Muslim casualties and making it appear as if only Armenians were the victims of Genocide, you are not helping this process of coming into terms with history, are you? It is not that Turks must come to terms with their own past, but both Turks and Armenians must come into terms with their mutual past.
Edited by bg_turk
|
|
|
mamikon
Sultan
Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:04 |
Question:
Are you claiming that Armenians genocided Turks?
|
|
Qajar
Consul
Joined: 18-Feb-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:13 |
Are you claiming that Armenians genocided Turks? ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
I can claim this. I can provide enough materials and links with information about turk massacre in Anatolia and Caucauses.
|
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.
Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.
|
|
mamikon
Sultan
Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200
|
Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:22 |
really?
please do?
and, can you define Genocide?
|
|
Iranian41ife
Arch Duke
Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
|
Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 00:15 |
OMG.
Qajar, please define genocide before you provide your "evidence".
|
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
|
|
Neoptolemos
Colonel
Joined: 02-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 659
|
Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 01:17 |
This sounds sth like: "Turks commited massacres, but Armenians did also. So if you say that there was an Armenian Genocide, there was a Turkish genoside also". LOL
|
|
|
bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
|
Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 02:10 |
Originally posted by Neoptolemos
LOL
|
I dont see what is so funny
|
|
|
bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
|
Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 02:23 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Question:
Are you claiming that Armenians genocided Turks?
|
A million muslims have lost their lifes in the Eastern provinces of Van, Bitlis, Erzurum, Diyarbakir, Mamuretuaziz, Sivas and Trabzon as a result of the war between 1912 and 1922. According to Halacoglu, half of them died in massacres by Armenians bands and collaborators in the Russian army. Is this not a genocide?
|
|
|
Digenis
Colonel
suspended
Joined: 22-Nov-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 694
|
Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 02:45 |
Originally posted by Neoptolemos
This sounds sth like: "Turks commited massacres, but Armenians did also. So if you say that there was an Armenian Genocide, there was a Turkish genoside also". LOL
|
Yes thats the spirit! Imagine a German staring a thread like :Holocaust-mutual killings! I guess some Nazis were killed by Jews too,so why dont we start discussing about Nazi's Genocide by the Jews ? The whole civilized world cannot be convinced by some desperate Turks (even from Bulgaria ) who try to prove that black is white,and white is black..
|
|
bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
|
Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 03:16 |
The above more than obvious desire of yours to act as a moral booster, chearleader, and a back-scratcher for anybody who shares your anti-turkish obsessions and turk-bashing inclinations, simply makes you look like a typical oily flatterer of the lowest level, whose only motivation for debate is to satisfy his own nationalistic ego by scoring cheap points in a discussion, in which any constructive or substantial contributions on your behalf are virtually nonexistent!
You are taking advantage of the Genocide against Armenians for your utterly contemptful propaganda purposes against the Turks and I sincerely believe that this is something that you should be ashamed of!
Edited by bg_turk
|
|
|
Neoptolemos
Colonel
Joined: 02-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 659
|
Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 04:11 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by Neoptolemos
LOL
|
I dont see what is so funny |
What is funny is your logic that, hey don't accuse as for a genoside b/c Armenians did a genoside as well. What is not funny is that you're trying to deny a genoside b/c there were some bad guys on the other side who commited massacres as well.
|
|
|
Komnenos
Tsar
Retired AE Administrator
Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361
|
Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 04:16 |
This discussion is moving in circles. Best to rest and see if any new arguments come up. In a few weeks.
|
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
|
|