I feel that Jesus would have certainly agree that Buddhism was from God. he himself was a man of peace and wanted to get away from some harsh doctrines/dogma of the Old Testament and Judeo aspects
During the 19th century a Russian journalist visited a Buddhist monastery in Ladakh and read a manuscript describing the life of a monk who lived centuries ago called Issa. As a young man, it is believed Jesus encountered Therevada monks in Judea and went back east with them, studying in India until he reached the age of 30. After either faking his death at the crucifixion or having someone else die in his place, he apparently went to Kashmir with his mother, married and had children. He called himself Yuz Asaf and died aged 125. His tomb in Srinigar has become a tourist attraction and is currently housed in a purpose-built building
No. The simple answer is that Christianity under Emperor Constantine was a mish-mash of many previous religions including paganism, in order to allow Constantine to placate and pacify as many of his subjects as possible under his new church.
This leads to lots of references that appear to be similar individuals and occurrences throughout written history, such as The Biblical Flood of Noah, which was directly plagiarized from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh.
Don't forget, too, that new gods and new religions have to meet pre-existing standards, so they must be gods or sons of gods, born of virgins, capable of performing miracles, healing the sick and raising the dead, and capable of resurrection. They also have to be somehow responsible for The Creation of Everything. Otherwise they aren't in the running.
Some things are relevant for both Jesus and Buddha. Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary, Buddha's mother was impregnated by a white elephant. Jesus died on the cross, Buddha nearly starved to death under a tree. Both defeated mighty demons. On the other hand Buddha never claimed to have created the world and rarely mentioned the gods
During the 19th century a Russian journalist visited a Buddhist monastery in Ladakh and read a manuscript describing the life of a monk who lived centuries ago called Issa. As a young man, it is believed Jesus encountered Therevada monks in Judea and went back east with them, studying in India until he reached the age of 30. After either faking his death at the crucifixion or having someone else die in his place, he apparently went to Kashmir with his mother, married and had children. He called himself Yuz Asaf and died aged 125. His tomb in Srinigar has become a tourist attraction and is currently housed in a purpose-built building
No. The simple answer is that Christianity under Emperor Constantine was a mish-mash of many previous religions including paganism, in order to allow Constantine to placate and pacify as many of his subjects as possible under his new church.
This leads to lots of references that appear to be similar individuals and occurrences throughout written history, such as The Biblical Flood of Noah, which was directly plagiarized from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh.
Don't forget, too, that new gods and new religions have to meet pre-existing standards, so they must be gods or sons of gods, born of virgins, capable of performing miracles, healing the sick and raising the dead, and capable of resurrection. They also have to be somehow responsible for The Creation of Everything. Otherwise they aren't in the running.
Yup well the ole G man had his share of bigotry and other alleged probs...so his views on Christianity vice christians might be considered suspect. And no Jesus was not a Hindu.
All right CV, I'll sign up for your congregation, that is, if you don't mind a real practicing Buddhist. The very idea of Jesus being a Buddhist is an oxymoron. Now, there is such a thing as a Zen Christian, and even a few Christians who are Zen practitioners. But had the historical Jesus even adopted Buddhist meditation practices, for which there is no evidence, he would still have been a practicing Jew whose followers founded what became Christianity,
ps. My onw personal Koan for Christians is this: Were you suddenly to discover irrefutable evidence that the historical Jesus was a mere man, would you still be a Christian? (in the sense of following the teachings of Christianity)
It appears to me that if they answer yes, they would be true Christians, as opposed to the kind of people who get into religion simply as an insurance policy against possible damnation.
Gandhi seemed to approve of Jesus' teachings. He once famously said "I like Christ, but not Christians, because Christians are so unlike Christ"
All right CV, I'll sign up for your congregation, that is, if you don't mind a real practicing Buddhist. The very idea of Jesus being a Buddhist is an oxymoron. Now, there is such a thing as a Zen Christian, and even a few Christians who are Zen practitioners. But had the historical Jesus even adopted Buddhist meditation practices, for which there is no evidence, he would still have been a practicing Jew whose followers founded what became Christianity,
We support all comers.....
Amen.
ps. My own personal Koan for Christians is this: Were you suddenly to discover irrefutable evidence that the historical Jesus was a mere man, would you still be a Christian? (in the sense of following the teachings of Christianity)
It appears to me that if they answer yes, they would be true Christians, as opposed to the kind of people who get into religion simply as an insurance policy against possible damnation.
Amen again. For he was a real...'mere' man... as well as what's also been claimed. What evidence available; contentious or other, accepted or rejected, bears this out. And as a consequence I find no fault with the appellation 'mere' man. For indeed he himself testified to it...and demonstrated it. Scripture abounds to it's veracity.
But my revision of 'Jesus loves me' is ntl catchy and certainly fitting reference the revisionism that has permeated this thread.
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 10-Oct-2012 at 23:39
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
All right CV, I'll sign up for your congregation, that is, if you don't mind a real practicing Buddhist. The very idea of Jesus being a Buddhist is an oxymoron. Now, there is such a thing as a Zen Christian, and even a few Christians who are Zen practitioners. But had the historical Jesus even adopted Buddhist meditation practices, for which there is no evidence, he would still have been a practicing Jew whose followers founded what became Christianity,
ps. My onw personal Koan for Christians is this: Were you suddenly to discover irrefutable evidence that the historical Jesus was a mere man, would you still be a Christian? (in the sense of following the teachings of Christianity)
It appears to me that if they answer yes, they would be true Christians, as opposed to the kind of people who get into religion simply as an insurance policy against possible damnation.
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Something just sprang into my mind: both Jesus and Buddha accepted outcasts in countries with a caste-system: priests and nobles at the top and peasants, slaves and untouchables at the bottom
During the 19th century a Russian journalist visited a Buddhist monastery in Ladakh and read a manuscript describing the life of a monk who lived centuries ago called Issa. As a young man, it is believed Jesus encountered Therevada monks in Judea and went back east with them, studying in India until he reached the age of 30. After either faking his death at the crucifixion or having someone else die in his place, he apparently went to Kashmir with his mother, married and had children. He called himself Yuz Asaf and died aged 125. His tomb in Srinigar has become a tourist attraction and is currently housed in a purpose-built building
This is actually two strand mixed into one;
1. Nicolas Notovitch, a Russian journalist, travelled through Tibet in 1887. He heard stories about ancient manuscripts that contained accounts of the prophet Issa, identified by the Tibetan monks as Jesus. He eventually gets to Himis, where the Buddhist Lama reads to him, from various texts, verses that tell the story of this Issa. Notovitch has them translated verbally, then writes them down, and on returning home rearranges them into a coherent narrative, which he publishes as "The Life of Saint Issa: Best of the Sons of Men" in French in 1894. http://www.scribd.com/doc/76374838/4/THE-LIFE-OF-SAINT-ISSAis a 1914 reprint in English (pp98-146)
In this story, Issa (Jesus) is a manisfestation of the Holy Spirit, born to teach, and deliver the Hebrews from the power of the Romans. When Issa is 13 his parents are inundated with offers of marriage because he is so clever, but Issa runs away to the East inorder to pursue his studies. He goes to the Jainists, but rejects their religion. He then goes to the Hindu Brahmans, who over the course of six years teach him how to cure through prayer, to explain scripture and to drive out demons. But they get angry at him for teaching and mixing with the lower castes, and resolve to kill him, and Issa moves on to the lands of the Buddhists. He is with them another six years, studying the language and sacred texts, before he is sent out to spread the word of Buddha. He then returns to Palestine, travelling through pagan lands and Persia, preaching against idolatry and human sacrifice, and calling people to abstain from theft, dishonesty and debauchery. Arriving in Palestine he starts to preach, and the people flock about him and accept his every word. But the governor, Pilate, fears an insurrection and orders Issa arrested. Pilate demands that he be tried by a Jewish court, but the Jewish judges and priests declare him innocent, so Pilate judges him under Roman law, but cannot find anyone to witness against Issa. Eventually Pilate overides his pretence at any justice and has Issa crucified. Issa dies and is buried by his family, but because the Jews hang around his tomb praying and lamenting him, Pilate is scared and has his body stolen so that it would not be worshipped. This then leads to the belief that Issa had been ressurected and gone to Heaven. The accounts of Jesus in Palestine returned to India via Indian merchants about three or four years after the crucifixtion.
Contemporaries viewed Notovitch as a hoax or having been duped by the Buddhist Lama, and another traveller claimed that he visited Himis but could find no one who remembered the Russian, nor knew anything about a prophet called Issa. However subsequent travellers to Tibet have found evidence that there are stories about a prophet Issa, who is identified by the Tibetans with Jesus, and claimed as an exponent of Buddhist teachings. None of this proves how old the stories are, nor that they are anything more than Buddhist propoganda.
2. The teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, religious leader and founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in 1889. He claimed that he was the Second Coming of Jesus, though not Jesus himself. In order to substantiate that claim he needed to show that Jesus hadn't died on the cross and been taken into Heaven (as in that case the first Jesus would be returning), but claimed that he had travelled to Kashmir and was buried there, under the name of Yuz Asaf.
There are stories about a great teacher and healer called Yuz Asaf in the Kashmiri area, and his tomb is on show. But when the stories about him date from is unknown, and the period that he lived in is uncertain. His name has been variously translated as 'leader of the purified' (because he healed a group of lepers), a Christian saint called Josaphat, a Buddhist title, or (by the Ahmaddi) as 'son of Joseph.
Putting the two stories together, despite the fact they contradict each other (one says Issa was a Buddhist and died on the cross in Palestine - the other that Yuz Asaf was a forerunner of Islam and died of old age in Kashmir), has been done by revisionist historians.
Nah, I didn't study history in university, I did Education and Geography, and in Bulgaria you go directly in narrow specialization.
This aside, when it comes to Jesus, there isn't really evidence for anything - there is Christian lore/gospels and Christian doctrine that had been asserted for centuries to the point that people see as evidence something that they wouldn't accept in any other case in their lives. Why do I have to accept a impossible theory that he was resurrected, instead of the very probable guess that his body was stolen?
How is the resurrection evidenced or proved? It's not, people just like the story, that's why they buy it - wishful thinking. Of course there wouldn't be evidence of the body was stolen - it any like that survives, if would destroy Christianity, and there are like 38,000 denominations with vested interest in that; even of there was evidence of that, it wouldn't be allowed to exist.
Besides, I'm not trying to prove that the body was stolen - I noted that for a person who doesn't accept resurrection, there are only 2 options to guess what happened - that it was stolen, or that Jesus didn't die there and then. Is there evidence for that it was stolen - no. Is there evidence that Jesus didn't die - no. Is there evidence that Jesus died - beyond lore and religion built on them/which is no evidence, but rumors/ - no.
So, since the 3 scenarios are un-evidenced, why should I accept the most impossible scenario, that is not evidenced either, but only accepted by people on faith? I don't have to.
Sure you are not required to answer my question, no matter what the possible reasons for a refusal to do so are. You are not required to label my position either, no matter what the reasons for me having such are.
Sorry if I butted in, I thought your post was about the whole post Nick wrote, which included the stealing of the body of Jesus, not only about the brother; and since I introduced this part /the stealing/ I felt partially responsible for his response that brought yours; so I responded.
That's not an accurate representation..tho understandable. I'm not labeling anything that is not in common parlance withing the academic community or the blog one. What I am doing, is pointing out that, and again using the language of the community, I was trained in...that supposition and speculations without evidences to support a hypothesis are then not a hypotheses. But merely speculation and supposition and will never received credible recognition or acceptance....they will merely receive rejection.
This is first year university history stuff DQ. And we are or should be way beyond that point.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
Sure you are not required to answer my question, no matter what the possible reasons for a refusal to do so are. You are not required to label my position either, no matter what the reasons for me having such are.
Sorry if I butted in, I thought your post was about the whole post Nick wrote, which included the stealing of the body of Jesus, not only about the brother; and since I introduced this part /the stealing/ I felt partially responsible for his response that brought yours; so I responded.
OK, let me see you do it, applying the method. So far you are only avoiding to give me an answer, weaving out sophisticated accusation/labels instead.
I didn't promote anything, I'm not proving the Swoon hypothesis, I'm testing to see how viable it is. This got me to the question about Jesus's body - since I don't believe in resurrection, this body had to went somewhere. Since you labeling my position, I asked a question, which doesn't require me to prove anything. The question was - what happened to Jesus's body? Now, you could answer my question, which you didn't do, instead of this you continue to label my position. If you want to go this way, be my guest; I don't care what you are going to call me.
I don't exactly understand what are you calling fantasy - that Jesus may have not died, that his body may have been stolen, or what? Because both those statements are commonsensical sound - what is not commonsensical sound is the idea that Jesus was resurrected, hence he got his body with himself - that's why faith is required to accept something that goes against all reality, because otherwise it cannot be supported. So, if something is fantasy in my world is not that Jesus's body was stolen /what I deem most probable/, or that he may have survived /which I think very improbable, but maybe not impossible/, but that he took his body with him, in his resurrection, because it's not possible.
I am not required too for:
A. It's not my hypothesis and as noted; I don't even give it that benefit be identified as one.
and
B. I'm not required to defend it with the presence of evidence or demonstrate how to prove it methodologically, for it's originator when he/she fails to do so; especially when you carry back to A and remember the evidentiary requirements and use of the method-responsibilities lay with the originator.
The only thing I might do is using the method disprove the fantasy.
Which I'm neither interested in doing because in actuality it's glaring deficiencies need no further elucidation to those who understand the method and ascribe to it rather then revisionist reinterpretation without proofs disregarding the method. And who recognize the prima evidences, which granted, might be reinterpreted; still requires proofs. Not solely speculation. And certainly they require it if one is attempting to garner acceptence of the re-interpretation.
Or.... because my larger point was about the failure of the use of the method which I have done.
And finally your mixing your apples with your pears as this latest comment was based on Nick's latest reference to Jesus's brothers assuming his identity etc...and not necessarily your subsequent posts in reaction.
But it was a nice attempt.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
OK, let me see you do it, applying the method. So far you are only avoiding to give me an answer, weaving out sophisticated accusation/labels instead.
I didn't promote anything, I'm not proving the Swoon hypothesis, I'm testing to see how viable it is. This got me to the question about Jesus's body - since I don't believe in resurrection, this body had to went somewhere. Since you labeling my position, I asked a question, which doesn't require me to prove anything. The question was - what happened to Jesus's body? Now, you could answer my question, which you didn't do, instead of this you continue to label my position. If you want to go this way, be my guest; I don't care what you are going to call me.
I don't exactly understand what are you calling fantasy - that Jesus may have not died, that his body may have been stolen, or what? Because both those statements are common-sensically sound - what is not common-sensically sound is the idea that Jesus was resurrected, hence he got his body with himself - that's why faith is required to accept something that goes against all reality, because otherwise it cannot be supported. So, if something is fantasy in my world is not that Jesus's body was stolen /what I deem most probable/, or that he may have survived /which I think very improbable, but maybe not impossible/, but that he took his body with him, in his resurrection, because it's not possible.
Well, some things are obvious and as such don't require evidence. What is the evidence that water is wet? So, if there was a death, there would be a corpse, where did the corps go? Resurrection is impossible, therefore is not an explanation, plus where is the evidence for it? Someone saw a angel and some other saw the resurrected one - no court would except such evidence if a trial about this was held now.
So, the question of the corpse still stands - this is not alternative history, nor a fantasy, this is a question about the corpse of a dead person. Now, if one is to place here the hypothesis of the resurrection - then this really have to go in the fantasy sub, because people don't come back from the dead, as is well attested by people dying every day by hundreds.
Your lead in betrays you unwillingness to ascribe to the method but adhere to the idea of speculative conjecture as a reasonable or sole substitute.
Both the methods require in the promulgation of a hypothesis, working or final, a means where by it can be tested and repeated in a controlled environment and or based on primary and secondary evidences established, recognized and practiced and verified as the norm through accepted procedural methods.
This is not being done. Consequently the best it can be claimed is.... it is as an alternate revisionist attempt to recreate-reinterpret evidence or prompt creation of evidence to support a favorable reaction by and for the originator and that individual's own agenda. Who, coincidentally, will not provide the evidence on his or her own ..... but requires that burden to be provided for him/her by others. This is not a hypothesis at that point in any measurable definition as associated with the accepted methodologies....it then only can be described as fantasy at best....lazy methodological practice at worst.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
Well, some things are obvious and as such don't require evidence. What is the evidence that water is wet? So, if there was a death, there would be a corpse, where did the corps go? Resurrection is impossible, therefore is not an explanation, plus where is the evidence for it? Someone saw a angel and some other saw the resurrected one - no court would except such evidence if a trial about this was held now.
So, the question of the corpse still stands - this is not alternartive history, nor a fantasy, this is a question about the corpse of a dead person. Now, if one is to place here the hypothesis of the resurrection - then this really have to go in the fantasy sub, because people don't come back from the dead, as is well attested by people dying every day by hundreds.
Credibile evidence forthcoming I presume.... or is this another exercise in which I have already addressed a response again worth repeating:
''is no substantive or credibility evidence to support it.....there is only revisionism of the evidence available. And it's being rendered, most likely in a secular effort, led by socialist and liberal atheists to discredit christianity as they attempt to discredit every form of religion. Other then the political-ideological-scientific ones they create to replace the traditional.
Got to come with something better...or I recommend this go into the alternate history sub which is to say the fantasy sub.
This is alternate revisionist history nothing more.''
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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