December 26th: End of the Soviet Union

Actaly during 50s, 60s,70s,80s in almost all estern block coutries it was very peacful(very little crime).The live was quiet.Tou have where to live, not to worry that you will be levt on the street jobless, you have enogh money to bye everything you need but nothing fancy.

The graphs show that there were no significant death events in the USSR outside the Civil War (caused by the anti-Communists, i.e. 'kill all reds!' people) and 1924-1953 (rule of Stalin). The rest of the time, USSR was quite peaceful and, of course, advanced.

They were also successful at modernising their economy and society. This is why almost all third world independence movements adopted some sort of Socialist program, while the West tried to keep them down.

Originally posted by Maju I'm pretty sure that not all the victims can be blamed on the bolshes - "whites" were no saints at all.

Exactly.

The Whites also executed non-combatants during the civil war.

1 m poeple were civil war combat causalties and between one hundred thousand and  three hundred thousand non-combatant people were executed by the whites and reds during the civil war...The Civil War was more devastating for russia than the war with germany.

Originally posted by Mosquito Mosquito: I couldn't but notice that Poland lost about 20% of its population in WWII. Obviously most of them were killed by the Nazis, am I wrong? Yes, Poland lost about 6 millions citisens. I would say 4,5 millions were murdered by Nazists and about 1,5 millions by Soviets. Some statistics say that about 2 millions were killed by Soviets but i guess that not all were killed because we still got about 200.000 Poles in Kazakhstan. The worst thing was that they were imprisoning, torturing and killing those who for 5 years were fighting against Germans and helping soviets by blowing up the trains with German supplies which were going to eastern front and those who were attacking Germans from behind when Red Army was coming.

I can't but agree that killing your own allies is a very nasty practice.

The soviets only from 30 to 55.And the whites are invluded in civil war in russia.The further we go back in time the sourses became less so the situation is very foggy about tzars regime but the many peasent revolts from XVIIc. to 1918 surely are for some reason and eventualy the rebels became victums of the whites, but no exact numbers survive.And until late XIXc. when the srefdom was abolished much os the russian populatioan were serfs.Who knows how much died because of the "kind" lords who owned them

Maju, you're just prooving that Bolsheviks are in the same category as Nazis and Nationalists & Communists in China. as in the case of China, i can see both sides in the mass-murder catgeroy, but in the case of Russia i can't see the "whites" doign anything wrong...

Sorry, the topic is so "hot" and so quickly gaining new posts, that I can't reply to all individually.

Literacy:

Age 15 and over can read and write:

• total population: 98%
  • male: 100%
  • female: 97% (1989 est.)

Source: Wikipedia - Education in Russia

Overall death toll in wars and persecutions in the 20th century:


(Source)

The highest death toll was obviously around WWII and the highest density of murders (non-war killed per year) was obviously at the hands of Nazi Germany. In the same period it is followed by the USSR, Nationalist China and Japan. In the 1945-55 period, the USSR has the highest  toll, followed by Red China. But it's also obvious that Nazi Germany would have broken all records if it continued to exist. It's also obvious that USSR and China have much larger populations than Germany.


This is a rlative scale of barbarism: percentage of population killed in specific epysodes (independent of their duration). (Source)

Mosquito: I couldn't but notice that Poland lost about 20% of its population in WWII. Obviously most of them were killed by the Nazis, am I wrong?

Here you can check (worldwide for the 20th century):

• Agricultural workforce (a negative index of indutralization/urbanization)
• Infant mortality
• Life expectancy
• Literacy
• Telephones (animation)

You will see that the USSR evolved pretty well, specially between 1930-60, but became stuck in most indicators after the 60s, coincident with what I mentioned above of the transition to Toyotism, which the USSR was unable to face.

Originally posted by Maju It was no utopia but it was a clearly industrialized country with most of its population living in cities and working in the industrial and services sectors (more in the industrial sector though). Check the facts before you talk.

I have first hand accounts. I know a guy who was electrician in a mining station in Kyrgystan. he said he was basically unemployed because all he had to do was sittign in his office and waiting for somebody to call in case a bulb was damaged. not to mention he was only one of several such electricians.

On the other hand, Imperial Russia hardly had some industries at all in some cities like St. Petersburg. It was mostly an agrarian country and I can hardly think how would have it evolved would it not be because of the revolution: most lands were in the hands of landlords and the situation was truly bad (actually that's why revolutions happen: because the situation is bad, very bad). I suspect that a white Russia would have evolved at the pace of Mexico or Brazil... or other semicolonial states as Turkey, Iran or China.

that's no point at all. the Czars only ruled up until 1917, at a point when there were only like 7 countries in the world who had major industries at all, and Imperial Russia was one of those, even though it was the last in line, it HAD industry unlike the other countries you mentioned. Russia developed along western lines since Peter the great and you cannot claim Russia would not have industrialized along western lines without giving reason. the peasant unrests of the early 20s century would have hit any governemt, including the Boslhewiks, you cannot say Russia would have been a fully industrialized nation by that tie just because it was ruled by Bolshewiks, they would have been hampered by the same problems that ruined the Czarist government. in fact Russia only became Bolshewik because the german government sent Lenin in a train to St. Petersburg to start a revolution, to say the Bolshewik revolution as the will of the people is a smack in the face of all those people that had to suffer from the results of Bolshewik takeover. the Kronstadt sailors eventually turned against teh Bolshewiks afetr they initially supproted them ebcause they got news from their families that they were supressed by them, and Sverdlov, one of the major figures of the early communists deid from the wounds suffered from an attack by angry workers in a strike in Orel/Oryol. the "internationalist" movement of Communist as you call them, did deport, persecute and kill many minorites of the Russian emprie, such as Cossacks, Germans, Tatars, Poles and others, it was them having to work in Gulags in Siberia and Kazakhstan who "developed" those "remote regions"....

excerpts from memoirs of polish woman Janina Sulkowska-Gladun who was lucky and survived:

After two days and nights of brutal treatment I was dragged to my "permanent" cell in the women's block of Dubno Prison. Though utterly exhausted, I was proud of defying my tormentors and not betraying our cause. Titov had grown hoarse in shouting and I had even outlasted Vinokur! At last I would be allowed to sleep and return to my senses as the NKVD realized that another 24-hours of interrogation could undo my sanity. I would now be allowed to recuperate--but only enough to undergo further questioning. The method of my captors was such that every night's sleep would be interrupted; prisoners were kept in a state verging on mental and physical collapse. A bright light constantly shone in my cell and any attempt to cover or turn my face from the door resulted in guards beating their keys on the door or the water pipes producing a cacophony. Constant harassment and humiliation were two tools of the NKVD interrogators--starvation, disease and torture were other ones I'd experience.

I spent many nights on a stool beneath a glaring light, at the mercy of an assortment of vicious NKVD interrogators. They were mostly uneducated thugs, impatient, violent, and particularly ignorant about Poland. I heard a story typical of this type of cham [boor], who, when questioned by a victim about the Soviet Constitution, grabbed a bar and beat him about the head screaming, "Here's your constitution!" But their brutality and ignorance was matched by their loyalty, and under Vinokur's short leash, they proved invaluable. Vinokur's secretary and second-in-command was Bronstein while the administrative head was Rachil Geifler, both of them Soviet Jewesses. With Vinokur they would lead the mass panic-murder of prisoners in 1941.

In April a second wave of deportations swept up members of families of people previously arrested or who'd escaped, and tradesmen and farmers. The majority of the estimated 320,000 victims were women and children many of whom would die in transport.

Finally on Sunday night the train set off for a destination that filled every Pole with dread: Siberia. As it steamed out, it was to the sound of hundreds of voices singing Polish hymns and patriotic songs. The train would pick up more prisoners along the way and would be over a hundred wagons long when it left Polish territory. The trip took two weeks under such brutal conditions that the seasoned train commandant (who expressed sadness over the fate of Polish children) committed suicide under a locomotive when the transport finally arrived. Bodies, mostly of babies or the elderly, were discarded through holes. At the end my mother and siblings were thrown off in a field on the steppes and told: "Work--or die!"

Following my family's arrest, my interrogations became more vicious--the anger in Titov and Vinokur now flowed to the surface. They screamed in my face and promised me a death sentence. They paraded tortured friends in front of me whom they would later murder. They kept my in solitary confinement and in a frozen cell. And they tortured me.

One particular session is burned into my memory. It seemed like another dreary night. I was dismissing Titov's predictable questions with my usual shrugs and denials--it was a routine that we both played well. Then Vinokur emerged from the background, twisting my chair close to his face.

"So you don't think I could just kill you like a dog!" he growled.

I sensed this was something more than the usual threats. He narrowed his eyes and a muscle twitched in his cheek. He undid his holster and took out a black revolver. Suddenly I realized he was brushing my cheek, and then my temple with the barrel. I could distinctly feel the click of the trigger and rolling of tumblers. "My God!"--he was playing Russian Roulette against my head.

"Believe, Believe, you Polish bastard!" Vinokur screamed and pulled the trigger. The sound of the hammer exploded in my head--but no bullet came forth. And then he pulled it a second, and then a third time. I shuddered each time. Titov's eyebrows wriggled with excitement as I struggled in my chair and came close to fainting, Then the gun was put away.

Later in my cell, I decided that it was just a game they were playing, and that there were no bullets--but I still would feel sick every time I thought of it.   

A week later I was to experience an unusual and "shocking" method of torture which had been concocted by my tormentors. I became a guinea pig in their advancement of the art of arriving at the "truth." This was their "electric chair." I was taken at night for a regular session. Titov and Vinokur were unusually attentive and asked questions slowly. I returned vague answers. They slowly asked me one more time, and I muttered back. They then looked at each other--and suddenly I was thrown out of the chair by some great force. I found my self on the floor with my right leg twitching and in pain. What had happened? They picked me up and put me back in the seat. I was asked the same question again, which I didn't know how to answer--and once more I was hurled into the air. I shook like a rag doll. The shock was repeated a third time and I started to choke...but the disembodied voice of Vinokur announced that he was satisfied. I was dragged back to me cell. My body felt peculiar but not in particular pain; it took my mind somewhat longer to recover. I was never again subjected to this--but I always looked at my seat for signs of tampering. I could only shake my head at the thought of Titov and Vinokur rigging up the chair with wires and experimenting on me to determine the proper voltage and power to torture--but hopefully not to kill me.

It was also a chair, that in a slower and less dramatic way, inflicted even more excruciating pain. Barely 5 foot 2 inches, my legs dangled like a child's when seated in the interrogation chair. The sessions always lasted through the night during which I was not allowed to eat or go to the washroom. The torture lay in the cumulative effect of having my limbs in suspension with lack of muscular activity and circulation, and the effect was very painful. After several months of repeated sessions my legs and feet were swollen and in pain. And it was most excruciating when I would first stand up from the chair. I never imagined that such pain could result from merely having your limbs dangle.

However I realized that my interrogations at the hands of the NKVD were relatively mild compared to what many were subjected to. Leon Kowal was repeatedly beaten as was Pius Zaleski. Others had needles jammed under their fingernails, hands crushed, testicles burned. Women were routinely raped or kept in cells of freezing water. Women with babies were not given proper food and had difficulty feeding infants, who then would be taken from them. Executions were common.

Anyway, USSR was a murderous totalitarian state and Soviets killed millions of people. You guys are for me revisionists and no different than neonazists. Altough you Subotai are somthing even worse because you have insulted the memory of all the victims of communism.