The Jewish people
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Topic: The Jewish people
Posted By: Halevi
Subject: The Jewish people
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 07:29
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Hi all, As a non-zionist, agnositc-atheist freethinking ethnic jew (enough loaded terms for you?) , i'd love to hear people's opinions on jews and judaism in general (or in specific!) Please feel free to be open and honest. =) |
Replies:
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 08:08
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On Jews or on Israel? I have nothing against Jews, the same I have nothing against, let's say Yakutians or Bakongo... but Israel gets to my nerves. It's the last colony and is only creating trouble and solving nothing. couldn't you make a unified state with Palestinians, something like Lebanon. That could be a great influence in the Near East. Overall, I tend to see Judaism as the precursor of Islam, Moses as the precursor of Mohammed. This is not because I am Muslim (I am not) but because I see the same nature for both religions: a sickness of the desert it must be. What worries me actually is Christianity. It's a foreign (Hebrew) religion that has nothing to give us Europeans. We need to get rid of that: it just confuse our identity. ------------- 
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Theophos
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:21
 I guess you have a confused identity then.------------- "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." --John 14:6 |
Posted By: Theophos
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:34
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As for jews, I think they're ok as anyone else. I'm not prone to generalize people and I try not to. Of course, there are those popular stereotypical jewish traits such as the jew is scrooge, the jew is not truthsworthy, the jew lends money, etc
 , but any honest person knows that they're just that, stereotyping. I'm really sorry for the anti-semitism that for centuries was more or less spread out throughout Europe, with an passive/active contribution of the Church on that. Fortunately, things have changed in that level, but there are still some reminiscenses in some right wing fascist movements in modern Europe.As for Israel, I think it was big historical error and it has caused more damage to the world and the region than good.  A unified state with palestinians seems to me to be the more logical and sane solution to the ongoing crisis and war, like Maju pointed out.------------- "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." --John 14:6 |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:49
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Jews collectivly, no opinion, i've met to many for that one to work.
Judism, a little wacky, but no more so than your average religion.
-------------  Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:27
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For me, if I'm perfectly honest, the feelings are
mixed.
When it comes to Zionists, right-wing Israeli political parties, terrorist groups like Kach... I'm irritated with them more than I should be for two main reasons: 1. Most of western world doesn't even know that they exist(ed) and certainly not what they've done. 2. As a Muslim, I consider them specifically against me. I see the settlers on the news screaming at Israeli police in their Arab costumes and I just feel sick to my stomach. I whisper things in my mind I'd never repeat in public, anti-Semitic things. It's just something that really, really gets to me. When it comes to everyday Jews, I'm more than fine with it. I tend to find myself drawn to Jews, even. I just find that we're speaking from the same place, if that makes sense? I almost never have to explain things when I chat with a Jew... I really can't explain it. It's kind of like Slav Macedonians. There is just this instant...thing. And I'm not the only one who experiences it, I'm certain. I've never met a Bosniak nor a Slav Macedonian who didn't kind of remark a similar thing about the other. (I wish Dejan was here, then I wouldn't sound as crazy...LOL). Overall, and speaking from a generalized sense, my impression of Jews and Judaism is probably better than it should be. La Benevolencija will always be the face of Judaism in my eyes and I'll never forget the things they, and Israel itself, did for Bosniaks during the war - and La Benevolencija continues to do. I just feel such a tug in my heart. They've really earned my respect. The little corner of the cemetery where the Jews who were killed 1992-1995 in Sarajevo has a white stone with one word engraved in it, "Again". I think it's the best memorial in the city and I kind of sniffle every time I think about it. So yeah...that's it. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:59
second I do have a question for Halevi though: both other Abrahamic religions (Christianity and Islam) seem to have an urge to spread their religion and to convert people, and have become very large because of that. Judaism however doesn't seem to have an urge to convert people at all. Why is that? ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:01
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Mixcoatl, Mixcoatl...look around at who they have to
choose from. ------------- |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:16
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Just a little anomaly in your self description. Jew is not an ethnicity, it's a religion. In fact it's a multi-ethnic faith, black and Chinese Jews included. So if you are an athiest, as you descrbe yourself, you are definately not a Jew. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:20
In Dutch there is a difference between Jood (Jew) and jood (jew), the first one meaning somebody with a Jewish ethnicity, the second one meaning somebody who believes in the jewish religion (In Dutch ethnicities are capitalized and religions are not, so Halevi is a Jew but not a jew). Perhaps it's a good idea to use the Jew/jew difference here as well, to avoid confusion. ------------- |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:20
| It is interesting that Jews have kept their identity outside their homeland for such a long time, especially when they were one of the (or the) most hated religious group in Europe. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:27
That's really interesting! Here they're called Spanish (Sefards) or German (Ashkenazi) racially, and Jewish religiously. ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:47
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Yeah, people often kept their Jewish culture even if they didn't have
the full English Breakfast when it came to the faith aspect, that alone
covers the ethnicity bit, the not being fully accepted bit just sealed
the deal as they remained distinct communities. I'd say that as well as a religion, Jews are a meta-ethnicity, with the two overlapping to varying degrees. Though present English language discourse prefers to keep things simple, so we either pretend Jews are a race when they are not, or act smug in pointing out that Jews can't be ethnicity because they are in fact several ethnicities with a common thread. Meta-ethnicity solves this problem, maybe one day i'll be famous for inventing this phrase. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Kalevipoeg
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 14:55
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I see Jews as some pretty close people to Estonians, not ethnically, or
that Israelis are my second bretherin to the Finns. 200 Jews fought for
a democratic Estonia in 1919. so i have no hard feelings towards them,
quite the opposite. And during 1918-1939. the jews were a great part of our society, many owning a higher education and having alot to do with advancing our culture. But Israel today is another topic: forcing a country into existance in this way really isn't my cup of coffee. And yeah, form a united "Israelania" or something of the sort, would really show that deeply religious people can be something else then blood thirsty ultra-nationalists. ------------- There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge... |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 15:10
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From a historical point of view, the Jewish people, regardless if they defined by ethnicity or religion, are surely one of the most fascinating groups in European and World history.
Fascinating not only for their contributions, either independently or via their influence on Christianity to European culture, but also for their extraordinary survival as a community against all odds in a totally hostile environment. In many ways, the Jewish minority has been the yard-stick on which the capabilities of a society to tolerance and enlightenment ( in want of a better word) can be measured. Judaism, as Christianity and Islam, has been a important and necessary step in the development of human belief systems and thought, and is therefore neither good nor evil. As for the State of Israel, as many problems as I have with its opressive policies, I detect here more potential in wanting and being able to achieve a peaceful solution for Palestine than amongst its many enemies, above all the fascistoid Iranian regime. In fear of what might come in its stead were it destroyed, it's existence must be guaranteed and be politically defended. ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 16:16
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persecuted, survivors plotters, energetic, industrious, very intelligent, antagonists, can not discuss history without mentioning jews, diverse people, secretive, rich. They have the collective knowledge and accumulated wisdom, unparralled by any other people. As old as moses I didnt read any other posts and jotted down whatever came to my head, so it is pretty honest list. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ When i was young I went to watch cricket at Lord cricket ground and was for some stupid reason baffled as to y a jewish guy was watching cricket.(ie, what did cricket have to do with him, it semed something very remote). Somethings that amaze me about jewish practices is the covering of hair by a woman using a wig. Another one is usury which i think is forbidden. I am deeply interested in the Donmeh and their life in Turkey. Also the jewish claims of lost jews in Afghanistan.
------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 17:36
Sadly, its contagious, even the Dutch have taken it up. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 18:50
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I don't look at ethnic Jews differently than
any other group. Doesn't bother me when one believes in Judaism,
either. I don't like the institutionalized system of belief, but if
someone believes in it I'm fine with it as long as theyre not trying to
convert me or openly judging me based on their values. This applies to
people of all religions, not just Jews. To be honest, though, even though I don't like or dislike Jews more than another group, I have to say I use the term "Jew" around friends. When someone is being cheap, sneaky, etc. But I even do this with Armenians...when I hear of people busted for any type of fraud I'll say something like "What an Armenian move". So its not exclusive to Jews or anything, I like ethnic jokes as a way of laughing about our differences (however exaggerated they might be) instead of fighting about them. I think Jewish history and Armenian history have many similarities. Mainly the non-stop persecutions (Jews had it worse in my opinion-but not in the present day), and also the large diaspora and being able to keep their cultures alive even though they were far from their homeland. I don't have a problem with the existence of Israel, I just don't agree with their state policies and as a result Israel (as an institution) tends to irritate me.
By agnostic-atheist, I assume you mean that you switch between the two on occasion. I'm agnostic, myself (with slight instances where I had accepted atheism). ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 23:56
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But both 'jood' and 'Jood' are not an ethnicities. One is a faith and the other a myth sprung from a faith. The ethnic term in this sense is a religious one too. So called 'Jood' are as ethnically diverse as the people of Europe and the Middle East. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 01:08
No. I have not: Christianity is an Oriental religion. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 01:13
That's not that way: Jew (Hebrew) is an ethnicity. Judaism is a religion. You can be a convert to Judaism from another background. You can be Jew and not religious or belonging to another religion (Marx, Allen, Einstein). The problem with Jews is that we don't know what was first the chicken (ethnicity) or the egg (religion). But I can tell you that Hitler didn't go over there asking Jews for their religion before determining their fate. That was in Spain 400 years before. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 01:16
Necessary? You are wrong in that. There was no need for any of the Abrahmanic religions and only adherents to them can say that. Chinese or Indians had never any need of such belief systems. Actually we Europeans didn't have that need either. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 01:41
This has occurred to me as well. I was in Armenia about a year and a half ago, and i couldn't help but notice a slew of similarities. It's more than just the genocide thing, too. The whole ancient displaced community, bonded by language and religion thing, is quite familiar to me. By the way, even though i got ridiculously sick off some khorovats in Yerevan, i gotta say i have mad respect for your cuisine. ; )
I feel you there, too. I gotta say, while i was once an ardent zionist, i eventually realized that the premise of zionism logically requires racist policies if its to be implemented in eretz israel. While i don't think the jews have any more or less of a right to a country than anyone else, the fact that Israel requires outwardly or implicitly racist policy to perpetuate its existence has made me lose my taste for the whole experiment. I'm not convinced that jews are any more or less racist than any other national group, however. Its the logic of european-born nationalism, implanted in the heart of the muslim middle east, which forces Israel to actually *act* on the racism everyone else has the luxury of ignoring.
Not exactly. I'm about 90-99% certain that there is no God, but i also doubt my own faculties of reasoning and intuition. So i throw the term 'agnostic' in there just to show that i have a bit of humility. I could well be wrong about everything. Thanks for your comments, ArmenianSurvival. |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 02:18
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In Italy we have the oldest western jewish diaspora. They were here before the first christians too |
Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 02:18
Maju please speak in your name. ------------- "I want to know God's thoughts... ...the rest are details." Albert Einstein |
Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 02:38
This gets to the crux of what it means to be 'jewish' and also helps explain the ongoing debate on this thread over whether 'jewish' is an ethnic, or religious, marker. Judaism is a tribal religion, not a proselytizing one. In other words, it was developed to help make sense of a *group's* existence/suffering in a meaningless world, rather than try to explain how all of humanity can be saved. It was born out of a very tribal environment. In other words, Judaism is only concerned with the destiny of a specific family, rather than that of humanity. Think of it this way: Jewish identity is like a private golf club. The club was founded by only a few families, all of whom were related. The membership consists only of the founding families and their offspring. Anyone whose mom is a member is automatically granted membership. It's really hard to get in, otherwise. The rules of the club are the religion. You can be a member of the club by birth, however, and not follow the rules. That just makes you a bad member. Only if you join another golf club is your membership suspended =) Since the club has been around for so long, and it's members have spread to so many countries, and have had children with so many non-members (mostly illigitimately, since, according to the rules, members are only supposed to marry other members), the gene pool has become increasingly diverse. There is, nonetheless, still quite a bit of shared matrilineal ancestry amongst all the members. Recently, however, the rules have been relaxed a little so that non-members can apply for membership, usually because they want to marry a member. This has resulted in even more genetic mixing, including whole families who went to extreme pains to join this ancient, elite golf club. So, to recap, Jewish identity is technically inherited through your mother (although many kids who have a Jewish father, and a non-Jewish mother also consider themselves Jewish)... You can not practice the jewish religion at all, but still be jewish by birth. Jews tend to share many of their genes with each other, but over the course of history (especially recently, as the rules for club entry have laxed a little) there has also been quite a bit of mixing. Essentially, Jewishness is an ethnicity, although because of geographic dispersal, and subsequent genetic mixing with local populations, the Jewish 'gene pool' has expanded significantly over time. Judaism is the system of religious rules that applies only to members of the ethnicity. The rules have nothing to do with non-members. To complicate things a little, Jews who abide by all the rules tend to view non-rule-abiding Jews as a little less 'Jewish' (but still redeemable). And, moreover, recently the rules have been softened a little to allow non-members to become members, in order to facilitate marriages, etc. Its important to imagine this all occuring over a pretty vast timespan, and being influenced by pretty vast geographical dispersals, hence the creation of many separate 'pockets' of Jews around the globe. They all recongize each other, however, by their rule book and they language that its written in. ; ) The idea of Israel (and im not saying its a good one) is to bring all these different pockets back to the one place their ancestors 'came from' and craft them into the mould of a 'proper' European-style nation-state. The problem, of course, is that the neighbourhood we choose to do this in was already populated. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 02:38
Hebrew's a language not an ethnicity, a Semitic langauge along with Arabic. Speakers of Hebrew come from Scotland to Persia. As for what the Nazi's thought or did not think was a race can in no way be taken seriously. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 02:57
Correct. In fact, as a student of both Hebrew and Arabic, i can
confidently say there's a remarkable similarity between the two
languages. Most of the roots, in fact, are identical (semitic langauges
are based on a three letter root system). The question is, how come someone from Scotland and someone from
Persia were both taught to read and write this language by their
parents? What's the connection? The answer is that both people can trace some of their ancestry
(usually maternal) back to a group of people that once spoke the
language amongst themselves. We know that group originated in the
Middle East precisely because Hebrew is so simliar to other Semitic
Middle Eastern languages. So, Hebrew is a language, and most of its speakers/readers also have a vague ethnic relationship to each other. Non-religious jews sometimes adopt 'hebrew' as their ethnic/cultural
marker, in an attempt to avoid being classified as religiously jewish.
Hahahaha. Well, the Israeli government does. It figues that if you could be killed for your ethnic identity, you should be granted 'protection' for it on the same basis. Its one of histories weirdest ironies, on more than one level. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 04:57
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But this is exacty my point about the concept of an ethnic Jew comes from the Jewish religion. The notion of Jewish ethnicity bases itself on the writings of the old testament are somewhat true. Jewish history as written of in the bible is archaeologicaly unprovable. Personally I think jews across the world have no 'family' relationship. Jews living in Britain are genetically British, in Russia genetically Russian, and have no genetic relationship to each other any more than naturally occurs between non-Jewish people across the world.
------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: arsenka
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 06:34
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I always thought that Jew is ethnic term and Judaism is religion, Hebrew: Idish and Ivrit are languages. May be I was wrong - I don't know. Anyhow, I agree completely with Komnenos's point of view on the matter. "There was no need for any of the Abrahmanic religions and only adherents to them can say that. Chinese or Indians had never any need of such belief systems. Actually we Europeans didn't have that need either." How would you explain adoption of Christianity in Europe then? Accident? Stupidity? You know, the more I learn about history the more I understand the number of casualities is very little there (I mean things that happen by chance) and almost every event has its logical background. That's most obvious when we are speaking about macrohistory and macroprocesses. I'll dare to cyte myself here: every event happens in its own time and place; every book is written in its own time and place; every person is son/daughter of its own time and place etc. That's highly incorrect to generalize as you do. You can't estimate medieval or ancient event/person according to modern criterions or according to your personal experience. Thus you can speak only wheather you personally or your surrounding need it now. but that's different matter. If you suppose it to be useless now it doesn't mean it was useless at the time it was adopted. If your opinion is based on historical knowledge and wisdom, please, back it with facts, logically relevant reasons. Although such kind of reasoning (statements like "We didn't need Roman Empire because...") always makes me smile: we even can't be sure we know all reasons and sequences of the events that had really taken place. Then, how can one forsee all circumstances that would arise in the case any event hadn't happened or had happened in some different form. Reasoning of that kind operates with "if"s. And as you know history doesn't know word "if"(except "History amusement" topics). That's the first point. Now the second one. Religion as many other things tends to to transform according to circumstances, time and place. Christianity confessed in Europe in Middle Ages and further up to nowadays wasn't that Oriental Christianity you are speaking about. Christianity we have now is our creation, planted and fed up on our cultural soil. So, that's it. PS: Apologies if I've been too harsh in my statements. ------------- arsenka |
And I disagree with Maju on several points.Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 07:12
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Since we are now touching on a really important topic, there have been many Jewish cricketers. Bombay has a Jewish cricket club, and there is an Israeli cricket association. (Google on Jewish cricket) In fact Jews, Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, Christians of all denominations, Zoroastrians, Buddhists and non-believers have all played top-level cricket. Even the Bahai Information Centre in London advertises that there are two cricket pitches nearby, though I'm unaware of any Bahai cricketers. And of course the very word 'wicket' is connected with 'Wicca' In short there is no reason why believers in any religion should be barred from reaching the full understanding and insight achievable through cricket.
------------- |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 07:29
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They really know how to use money ------------- |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 07:48
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IS it correct to call Khazars "jews" because of their religion? I got confused here, is "Jew" a ethnic term or religious? ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Theophos
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 08:47
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Not anymore. It's a world religion now, strongly hellenized and deep rooted in european culture and thought. It was oriental in nature, though. ------------- "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." --John 14:6 |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 09:50
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In which other game do u get to throw a ball at somebodys head at 100mph and then shake hands at the end. ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 09:52
Baseball.
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Posted By: sedamoun
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 10:48
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Spoken like a true YODA... On a more serious note, my opinions are a little bit the same as Maju's. I am always careful not to generalize: Israel/Sionist and Jews. I really, really can't care less about another person's religion, that is NOT what defines us humans, so Jews are equal to all other humans, no less, no more. The Israeli GVT on the other hand is an oppresive colonial State. I am not saying all israelis have the same views as the GVT... but it's the poeple that chose (by voting) their GVT so that has to reflect a majority's choice. What is certain is that they are not going anywere, so let's just try to get along (wishful thinking). As a community, I find Jews (less for the younger generations) very close minded: for jews it seems to be "you are either with us or you're out". The jewish community is always financially strong but at the same time limited (they don't mix very much with other minorities). Cheers. ------------- 
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 11:27
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The spread of Christianity is a result of Roman/European Imperialism, Islam for Arabs, Zaroastrianism for pre Islamic Iranians. The Jews have never been an imperial people, that is why their religion did not spread. Today Zaroastrians apparently don't accept converts (conservative ones at least), they sure as hell did 1700 years AGO!! ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 11:45
ALl of them? I thought it was just the Parsee who were like that (though many of the London crowd do, but then there aren't that many of them, so i guess the more the merrier). ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 11:51
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It is a new thing and trendy among ex-patriots. ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 11:55
Expatriates surely  But London has had a Parsee community for like two centuries, the first Asian member of parliament was a Parsee from Bombay back in the 1890s, and because of the no-convert rule, they were effectivly shrinking as many married non-parsee folks, hence the tendancy for many in recent times to accept converts into their families, even if the rules technicly say otherwise. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 12:01
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I wish people could differentiate between Paul, do you hate Jewish people? |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 12:22
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Maju, I am curious, what would you propose instead of
Christianity for |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 12:36
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I was talking with my Grandmother about this thread
and she said something I think it really interesting! She said Jews weren't really Bosnian and I protested, talking about everything they did to help us during the war. She said that's why they're not Bosnian, because they helped those in need on all sides, regardless of their ethnic identity. I said that's a good thing, and she said she wasn't implying it wasn't. But helping all sides, in the Balkans, is as dangerous as harming all sides because whether you're seen in a good or negative way, you'll be seen as different. She said its good they participate in society and do good things but they should never forget their place so they're not caught off guard. She said you can say Yugoslav, Bosnian, and whatever else for as long as you want, but eventually it will come down to Croat, Serb, Bosniak, or Jew. She said during WWII there were people who didn't know they were Jewish until they stepped off the train at Auschwitz and that's a crime society did to them the same as it did to many "Muslims" at the beginning of the genocide here. So I said that's all fine and wonderful, but most people wouldn't view separation in society as a good thing and many would even attempt to use it for evil ends. She said there's not a Jew or a Bosniak alive today who can't spot a fascist from the next valley over, who doens't see instantly through people, politicial policies, choices of words, etc...no matter how nice they might seem on the surface... that are actually targetted against them. She said if we had that in 1941, or in 1991, "no one would've been shot in the back". ------------- |
Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 06:15
More interestingly, Paul, are you really from Thailand, and is your opinion of Jews/Israelis based mostly on the behaviour of the throngs of post-Army 20-smthg Israeli tourists that frequent your country? I think there's a distinct possibility that's the case, and i'd like to know if im on the right track, there ... |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 06:41
Of course we Basques had a whole belief system that was slowly destroyed by Christianity... but there were others. In any case, I don't see why do we have to be absorbed by a foreign ideology from Asian Patriarchalists. I prefer Zeus... or whatever. (Actually I prefer Dyonisos out of the Greek bunch, but no need to restrict to a single pantheon or belief system).
But Christianity came to bury our inteligence back under superstition. 
Venus? ... Sounds cool.  What I propose is no oficial religion or just some empty ritual as Romans had. We don't need to be ruled like cattle and be told what to believe and how to behave. What's so good about Christianity? Armaggedon? The hate preachings of Paul? Or the caste system of Augustin? What's so good about Christianity? The persecution of the Pagans? The abolition of inteligence? The promotion of feudalism? What's so good about Christianity? Hypocrisy? Inquisition? Witch and heretics' burnings? The pact with the stabilished power? The genocide of the native peoples? Mysogynia? We were fine before they came. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 07:09
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It's called the Church of England ------------- |
Posted By: Theophos
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 07:11
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Yes, that's exactly what christianity is all about - hate, caste system, persecution, abolition of intelligence
, feudalism, hypocrisy, genocide, mysogynia! I'm sure you can find some more... ------------- "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." --John 14:6 |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 09:36
The concept of sin... specially the original sin. But what I hate more of Christianism is intolerance, pernicious brainwashing of kids and the custom of burning people alive... -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Theophos
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 12:20
You seem quite full of hate, Maju. Cool down. ------------- "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." --John 14:6 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 14:24
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Very interesting so far.Sorry I arrived a bit late. I admire the Jews.Simply for the fact that they have survived so far.Judaism is first among the three living Semitic/Middle Eastern religions.Christianity and Islam have a lot in common with Judaism. What I find frustrating is the secrecy and defensive attitude of Jews about their faith.My part of the world has no Jews and I have never met a Jew {I once saw a Motorcyclist in my town with an Israeli flag....cried out Shalom and he replied shalom....thats as close as I have come to meeting a Jew}.I wrote to a Rabbi once in India and once in S Korea.In India got no reply,in S Korea the guy suggested which books I should read in order to learn about the Jews {only YHWH knows if his refusal was due to the fact that his Synagouge is inside a US army camp},maybe the Indian Rabbi refused because I wrote to him after 9/11. What I really want to know is 'Do the Jews really run the world Economy'.Is this conspiracy theory true? Most of the Indian Jews have emigrated to Israel.
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 16:12
Yes, they do. Get a list of senators. ------------- |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 19:25
Oh Get A Grip !! ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 22:02
That's a disqualification. If you want to discuss my emotions, which you can hardly get a grasp of via the net, btw, you should discuss why you have that impression. Instead you're using that to avoid discussion. You asked why I dislike Christianism. I gave you a good bunch of good reasons. Instead of discussing them you attempt to attack me personally? Why? Because Christians like you can't carry on an inteligent discussion. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 22:21
Hi DemiSoda,
No, we don't 'run it'. However, there are a disproportionately large number of Jews in positions of financial power. There are also a disproportionately large number of Jewish Nobel Prize winners, classical musicians, and intellectuals/academics in general. The reason this is the case is debatable, and is an interesting study in Jewish and European history, religion, anthropology and, epecially, what i'd call 'minority theory'.
Hahah. Unlikely. I've been an (ethnic) Jew all my life (no choice, right Paul?) and it's never rung true for me. What i have noticed is that we Jews generally tend to help each other out first, before helping out non-Jews. I think this is a classic example of ethno-centrism (you dont really have to be related to someone to believe that they're part of your 'group')... a phenomenon to which all humanity is inescapably vulnerable. Opinions? |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 00:27
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That is how things work, beliefs are replaced by newer beliefs. The Druids and other weird 'gods' in Europe were replaced by Christianity and to be honest it is a good thing. Most European wars were for political reasons than religious ones. Can you imaging France with a Celtic religion and Germany with their own religion? Such a disunity would only inevitably lead to the worst wars. In fact, the Thirty Years War and the Crusades teach us that those religious wars are long and costly (Germany lost allot of people in the Thirty Years War). As Christians, we are united by a common faith. Of course this isnt to say crusades, even in Europe, did not take place. But being under 1 faith is much preferable. Also, how did Christianity destroy belief systems? Many people, believe it or not, actually embraced Christianity. I read on the eve of Constantines rise to power 25% of the Empire was Christian. Why do you think he used Christianity as the base of his power? Christianity actually had a good start Maju.
Christianity is Monotheistic, something I am proud of. And tell Aristotle that Greek religion allowed for free thoughtsomething tells me an Atheist like you would be swallowing that poison.
Oh really? And no other religion was supposititious? The Greeks and Romans both believed that Blacksmith gods were responsible for volcanoes...Christianity isnt the only religion with this past. IN fact, Islam led the way in the sciences in the dark/middle ages and Christianity led the way in art and culture.
I am not one for ritual. I am content with a relationship with God and not forcing my self on others. IN fact, Maju, I am not a religious person. I just have a huge reverence for God. And notice, in America there is no official religion, in Europe, there are official religions.
Armageddon, what is it? I invite you to find out. It isnt the total destruction of everything. It is the destruction of the governments and a return to a Theocracy under God. Hate preaching of Paul? Are you referring to his initial hate for Christians? I never heard of this caste system... it isnt Christian in any event. The Abrahamic faiths do not have a caste system such as Hinduism.
Many religions persecute the others around them, and you know it. Whether it is official or unofficial, local or wide spread. And it isnt uncommon with ignorant and superstitious people. Feudalism was a natural reaction to the collapse of the Roman Empire. News flash, Christianity existed (in its established power) in the Roman Empire for its last 200-300 years before the Feudal system.
Genocide of native people? What do you mean? religions often establish pacts with the governments. I dont support that my self. Just because a religion did this doesnt mean i am a member of that religion, but merely the same faith. And "we" were fine i guess. But we were pegans....I'd take the "sickness of the desert" over that crap any day. I dont want to dance around a fire with a Shaman who is doped up on monkey sh*t as a form of worship. Nor do I want to go before some statue of some Greek god and pray to it. The whole idea is revlting to me.
Let me tell you this, if it wasnt christianity, it would have been some other religion to do X Y and Z. Though christianity didnt do those bad things, people professing to be chrsitians did them. |
Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 02:19
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Maju, throw some christians to lions.
------------- "I want to know God's thoughts... ...the rest are details." Albert Einstein |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 03:22
What those wars show is that monotheistic people is extremely fanatic. There were no wars of religion in Antiquity. It's an Abrahmanic invention.
It's estimated that only 10% of Romans were Christian at the ascension of Constantine. But anyhow, it's simply elucubration. It is also very curious how a minority of that ridiculous size was able to take over and destroy the most powerful Empire west of China.
Monotheism is stupid: not because of the idea of a single "architect" but because of the idea of definining that "architect" with a single dogma: with a unique and exclusivist theory of the Divine.
Islam is an offspring of monophysitic Christianity and other forms of Judaist proselitism. Neither Islam nor Christianity led anything on science or culture. Humans managed to carry them ahead despite the obscurantism that both totalitarian doctrines had inmersed humankind in. This process eventually flourished in the European revolutions and the restoration of a-religiousness. A nice state that we can usually enjoy nowadays.
You're right. And that's a shame. Yet Europeans are nowadays much less religious than Nordamericans.
Great - you have now persuaded me that the destruction of everything is much better. Do you want that for your children? Do you want them to be hung till they die just because they smoked a joint or kissed someone?
News flash: the instaurator of Christianity in Rome was the same one that promoted the inheritance of professions and other feudalist measures. News flash: Rome was feudal/feudalizing long before it fell to the Germans. The peoples of the West had even stabilished a state of semi-permanent rebellion against that Imperial Feudalism called the Bagauda.
Look in America. Where are the natives?
Not actually: we were illustrated philosophers. Zeus was definitively more tolerant.
You don't have to do anything if you dont want to. Unlike Christianism our stuff is just for the willing - but we want to be able to dance around the fire high on that sh*t if we wish to.
Unlike Christians and Muslims, Greeks did never kneel before their gods. They revered them but they treated with them as near-equals. They were not the slaves of the gods: they were free people.
I don't see why we need ONE religion. We can have a hundred of them and let people chose their best way to approach the Divinity. That's the good thing about polytheism: that there was wide choice and it was open and integrative. But Christians (neo-Judaists) had to come with their idea of a single exclussivist idea of God. How wrong they were. Luckily we have been able to break the chains. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 04:31
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i dont have anything against Jews who dont support israel, i dont have problems dealing with them. on the other hand i dont like Israel and people who think that they are the chosen people and they have the right to come from europe and get the citizenship of Israel and act like they were living here for a 1000s of years. its like its and nomans land and the people who are there does not exist ! also i think jews are people who have judaisim as their religion, and if you go by ethnic thing then they are Hebrews sons of prophet Jakub. and many of the Hebrews converted to Christianity and Islam and they still Hebrew ( its a blood thing) but not Jews. a turk converting to Judaisim and calls himself a jew is not a hebrew and the irony many of these converted jews claim palistine as their land.
israel has nothing to do with our (ancestor's land speach) its simply " God gave the jews this land and its ours" either you are Hebrew Jew or a converted Jew. as long as you are Jew then its your land and you have the right to claim it. thats what i understood from some jews i talked to about "who is a Jew".
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Posted By: Koda ku Rot
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 05:21
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What i have noticed is that we Jews generally tend to help each other out first, before helping out non-Jews. I agree Halevi as I suffer from this phenomenon too and in India this can be a bit complex and confusing becoz an Individual has many identities at the same time. Honestly I want to know the truth about 'Jews running the World economy thing'.I have been a student of commerce and from a deeply spiritual part of India {river Ganga originates in my province}. How is it possible for such a miniscule population to control the largest economy and through it the world economy,no matter the level of their collective intellect,specially when not all citizens of that country view them favourably? I have read both Malizai's n your opinion.I'm a bit lazy so won't search for a list of senators n then try to find how many of them are Jews.If brother Malizai has time n energy he may present a list/link.I'll go through it.Sorry.......for being lazy ------------- What is this?Khandu Machu Lon March Pees |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 05:22
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European Jews have nowadays and had in the previous decades no right to move to Palestine and displace the local population based on an primitive piece of mystical fiction they once lived there before. However the ones who came over decades ago have had children and grandchildren, born in Israel. They are not Europeans, they by location of birth are Palestinians too with as much right to the live there as anyone else. I'm not sure what proportion the current population of Israel are native and what migrant, but a huge number are native. I think this is something the Palestinians have to accept, the only right the Palestinians themselves have to the land is they were born there and now a percentage of Israelis have that right too. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Koda ku Rot
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 05:26
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Please don't throw them to Indian Lions.We don't want our Lions to become man-eaters.My province has plenty many man-eating leopards. http://www.greyfilms.com/wildlife-environment.html - http://www.greyfilms.com/wildlife-environment.html ------------- What is this?Khandu Machu Lon March Pees |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 07:23
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I don't see anything worse in Greek religion than in Christian one. At least among Greeks you could chose wether you prefered Apollo or Dyonisos, Hermes or Athena, Zeus or Artemis, Prometeus or Gaia... you had a wide choice and no need to be subject to any dogma. Also, that religion was receding pushed by analytical thought, philosophy, science... and that was good. Become a Hindu Maju.You'll have 330 million choices and no need to be subject to any dogma. ------------- |
Posted By: Theophos
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 09:38
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Well, I have that impression because you've been bashing on Christianity for some time now in a rather unusual angry way. That's why I said you were full of hate towards it. You seem hurt with Christianity.
I didn't attack you Maju, don't victimize yourself. I didn't discuss your 'good bunch of good reasons' simply because they are complete nonsense, and you know it. You can't hold christian doctrine responsible for the accusations you posted. Instead, you can accuse some christian countries or a misled medieval Church, but not Christianity as a religion for witchhunting or native enslavements.
I'm sorry you think that way. I would have a discussion with you, if you steped down that hate pedestal that is blurring your judgements. ------------- "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." --John 14:6 |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 11:08
Sure: I've suffered more than a decade of Christian school and I was born under a Christian fundamentalist regime. You bet I'm hurt with Christianity. (1) The Jentilak (Gentiles, mythological giants) saw a bright light in the sky and, worried, asked their elder. The elder said: it's the arrival of Kixmi (Christ): it's the end of the Basque nation. And therefore they went to a cave or dolmen (depending on the version) and hid there. (2) Why did the Lamiak (nymphs) and Iratxoak (imps) dissapear? Because of the construtcion of chapels and hermitages. (3) Diego Lpez de Haro, first historical Lord of Biscay, was married to Mari (the Godess) and they had a pact that he would keep his Christian religion outside of home. But one day he realized that his divine wife had the foot of a goat and he instinctively made the sign of the cross. Inmediately after that, Mari grabbed her daughters and jumped out of the window flying to Anboto. (4) A peasant fell in love with a lamia (nymph) but when he realize her nature he abandoned her, dying of a broken heart soon after. The lamia went to his funeral but she did not enter the church. I don't enter in churches either. Not in marriages nor in funerals.
I didn't attack you Maju, don't victimize yourself. I didn't discuss your 'good bunch of good reasons' simply because they are complete nonsense [/quote] Again you attack me saying that what I ay is acomplete nonsense. You are discounting me continuously - not sure if you realize that your attitude is insulting (luckily I couldn't care less).
That will depend of the point of view. If you mean to defend Christianity you would say that if you don't mean that you probably say otherwise. Specially considering that we are noty talking of isolated cases but a general tendency, since the 4th century to the 20th. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 11:28
They have castes. Also you can't convert to Hinduism. You must be born in it. But I do venerate Shakti and Shiva... in my own way. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Theophos
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 16:11
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Christian fundamentalist regime?? I thought you were basque. I never heard of any christian fundamentalist regimes in the Basque Country or in Spain. Strange stuff. I'm sorry that you're hurt though.
It's in your right to do so.
I'm sorry if you are insulted but I only stated my judgement. And my judgement is that your questions are completely biased and nonsense in this matter. But since you care less about that, it is strange that you feel insulted.
I'm trying to have a rational approach to Chritianity, unlike you. ------------- "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." --John 14:6 |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 16:35
May be u need to get a grip. Work out the money, power, influence triangle. Jews as halevi said have disproportionate(to use the term lightly) amount of clout. And good luck to them for they have earned it.
Just do a count-- http://www.newamericancentury.org/aboutpnac.htm - http://www.newamericancentury.org/aboutpnac.htm ------------- |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 19:34
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So, its a well organised PAC. I fail to see a connection with a "global jewish conspiracy." It amazes me that thinking as simplistic,[not to mention paranoid] as that still exists. But, since the fall of the soviet union I guess some folks need someone to weave conspiracy theories with. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 19:41
Please, lets not go off topic, there has been no suggestion of conspiracies. However did u do the count? Who r u quoting -->" "global jewish conspiracy." " ------------- |
Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 20:12
Well, said. =) I find it amusing how people often make the leap (not only re: jews) from statistics and other facts to 'conspiracy' ... i think maybe theyre imaginations need a more creative outlet ; )
Just so there's no confusion, many of those on the list are *not* jewish. Jeb Bush? Francis Fukuyama? Zalmay Khalilzad? Dan Quayle? Etc. There *are*, it seems, a disproportinately large number of Jews involved in the finance industry, as well as in American politics, North American media outlets and academia. But that doesn't mean all their agendas match up. According to the USAs current doctrine (until recently?) re: energy security, Israel is a key strategic ally (ie battering ram/fall guy for Mid East policy). If/when that changes, i imagine there will be somewhat of a shift in the number of Likudniks in the administrative ranks. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 20:17
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Francis Fukuyama isn't Jewish? OMG!!!
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 20:25
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Exactly, for some people, any group of three or more people trying to get something done is a conspiracy. ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 20:30
Yeah, no kidding eh? Then again, Sammy Davis Jr. 'converted' ; ) Interestingly, these guys are also Jewish: Noam Chomsky Norman Finkelstein Uri Avnery, etc. ... there are plenty of Jews in the political spotlight ... many, if not most, don't agree with each other We have a saying: two jews, three opinions Alternatively, there's that story about the two Jewish businessmen, Mordechai Zimmerman and Avi Haim, who were stranded on a desert island in the South Pacific in the 1964, after their plane crashed.. ..when a US Merchant Marine ship arrived to rescue them 2 years later, they found not one, but three synagogues (jewish houses of worship), ..One for Zimmerman, one for Haim, and one that neither 'would set foot in' ; ) |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 20:52
Actually the previous posts, yours and several others were off topic, I was simply responding. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 20:59
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Getting back on topic- The jews, are a remarkably resilient people whom I personally admire a great deal. When I was a child we lived for a few years in one of the last of the old "hebrew neighborhoods." I learned to appreciate their humor and there humanity, as well as the suffering they, as a people have endured. It no doubt helped shape my own attitudes and philosophy. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 21:33
Ah yes, the self-hating jew. ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 22:59
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Thats so lame.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 23:01
well there are many people who had childern and grand childern in other countries and they dont have Citizen's rights there. israel gives citizen ship to anyone who proves he/she is a jew within few months if not weeks. i personally think that palistaine is a one nation for all people living in it, dividing the land obviously isnt working well. both sides are struggling. Israel has a state with the full support of the US and many EU countries, while palistinians on the other hand dont have a state and their land ( the one the UN approved ) is under Israel's direct and indirect control. and as i said before israel was formed for the Jews ( all jews hebrew and converted jews), having minorities who are not jews werent as per their major plan.
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Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 23:28
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what major plan?
------------- "I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon" 
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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 23:30
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to have a land for the jewish people aka promised land.
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 00:11
Halevi, I am not oblivious to the non jewish persons named above. It wasnt my suggestion that all the above were Jews. Read the post more carefully. It says: "just do a count", to allow the reader to draw for himself, what i had claimed.--> "Jews as halevi said, have disproportionate(to use the term lightly) amount of clout". If we start discussing agendas and so forth than we r likely to go off topic. However, if someone thinks there is a need for discussion than i am willing to open a seperate topic. ------------- |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 05:54
Two or more. and if they do it in secret it is a conspiracy, legally, in the UK anyway, irrespective of what they are trying to get done.
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Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 17:34
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lol actually i was a barbarian pagan before the enlightenment came. So it is their monotheism
A generalization.
You say %10 I say %25 in either event there was a significant amount of people who were Christian and who did not practice it openly. At one time Christianity was actually a kind faith, and especially for women believe it or not because it was very liberal toward women at first. And my own conclusion is %25, not %10 of the Empire was in fat Christian and that is how it gained its power. And how did it destroy Rome? The western empire was destroyed by Barbarians, not religion. In fact the last Emperor abdicated.
We see it differently. I think polytheism is dumb because it takes a team of homosexual god to get anything done. Zeus? Poseidon? god of the water?! what the hell is that? I laugh at that crap.
I personally wouldnt mind seeing all people as Christians but i would never force them, their religion is not my concern.
PROVE IT. Unbelievable. I cant believe your own ignorance. You are obviously somebody who was hurt by Christians bad not you are atheistic. Read about Islam and science if you dont believe me. I dont feel like looking for anything because you already have your own opinion on things and dont care what the truth is. The fact is, Islam did contribute to science and Christianity did contribute to art. And even under Christianity, the west RULED THE WORLD. And led all advances in technology for the past 300 years.
Theocracy merely means rule by God. Iran is not ruled by God. And I believe God can rule us better than we can. I think history has shown we cant rule our selves.
Yes and because some guy proposed something it must be real Christian doctrine.
Yes it was feudalizing because the Germans were running France and Spain and finally Italy. But I dont see how it applies to Christianity. I thought Christianity started its power grab after the Empire fell.
The natives died form disease, something that would have happened anyway because they didnt have immunity to western illnesses. And our taking of their land was imperialism and colonialism,, not religion. Hell, if they were Catholics we still would have taken their land.
No it is not fine, but yes it is pagan but i never support forced conversion.
Zeus, and your pagan gods do not exist.
Of course you do, and i have the right to point and laugh. Are you a witch?
Actually, we dont kneel before God. We pray to God. The Catholics are into idols but the Muslims arent (though they worship the Kaba). Real Christians do not need a gold cross. In fact I would burn a gold cross down because i know it is a mere idol.
The world isnt your liberal paradise where 100000000000 religions and people can live side by side in peace. Humans by their nature are intolerant. Sure today you can have any religion, though a limit to what you can do (child sacrifice). And polytheism is a fantasy. It is about believing what you want to believe and not believing in the what is.
How right they were and how wrong polytheism is... Maju, just remember, your personal experience with Christians means all Christians are like that. |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 21:29
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey 
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Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 21:37
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yes i know
but maju is a little pointed against God so I thought i'd return the favor. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 23:57
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I'm not gaianst God, I am against Yaveh - it's the diference between being against automoviles and being against SUVs or the Opel Astra. Yaveh is like Zeus: just one god of one tribe. The diference is that "he" pretends to be theonly one... what is obviously futile. The "only one" dos not have an exclussivist doctrine: it is the God of all: it is All. That's why I am pantehist and not a sectarian. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 03:37
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I am sorry to say this, but I do not understand pantheism. To believe in a monothestic gods would ultimately countradict that god when you believe in a polythestic god or any other god for that matter.
So, Maju, you then bellieve that Yahway or Jehovah does exist?
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 12:25
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Yaveh is a godform: it exist as much as people believs in it. It has a psychical or virtual existence and lots of power derived from the many people that believe in it. Power that is there to be manipulated by the "wizards" that cast the correct Yavistic spells... by the priests, rabbis, imams, ministers and ayatollahs... Hope you get the point. Of course Yaveh is not the absolute God - but it is not alien to it, as everything is part of the true Divinity, even mere ideas. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 15:18
I agree. I think anyone who professes any sort of 'belief' in anything (even us atheists) would do well to think on this sentence for at least a day. |
Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 15:23
Using that definition, there are, of course *millions* of conspiracies going around that probably involve Jews (as well as many many other ethnic groups)... What i think is very unlikely is that there is any sort of upper-level global conspiracy amongst any significant number of Jews. We simply argue too much and have excessively big mouths. If you see some sort of Jewish method to the madness, however, it likely has more to do with ethnocentrism, as well as Israel's strategic importance to the USA's post-1972 energy security doctrine. |
Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 07:54
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Why did this thread die? C'mon people, dont hold back. ------------- "Your country ain't your blood. Remember that." -Santino Corelone |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 08:09
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I think you should define 'jews', when most people think of jews they think of religious people, and that's often not the true, most jews worldwide are not religious people. So when you say 'jews' who you refer to?
I live in israel, i guess by many i'll be called 'jew' though i am a very unreligious person(like most of the country), so what make me a "jew"? When i think of my self, i'd rather be called israeli than 'jew'. It's very funny
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Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 08:19
Agreed. Most people have issues thinking of 'Jewish' as an ethnicity... ironically, this also sometimes applies to ethnically jewish Israelis! Golani... i'm not an israeli citizen, but im also not religious. Many of my famliy members are israeli. I look pretty stereotypically 'jewish' (dark ashkenazi)... Since im not an israeli citizen, i cant call myself 'Israeli', nor use that term to define my ethnicty. However, i'm not merely 'Canadian', nor do i look or feel Polish/German/Ukranian/Romanian, which is where my gradnparents were born, respectively. We're an odd case in this world dominated by the ethno-national construct, arent we? (ani esmakh letargem et kol ma she amarti kan, bishvilkha, im tirtze) ; ) ------------- "Your country ain't your blood. Remember that." -Santino Corelone |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 08:41
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Hey. No need to letargem
ME EFO ATA YODEA EVRIT?
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Posted By: Halevi
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 08:50
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Mi haaretz. Lamadti sham shnatayim. Shana echat be Tel Aviv, ve od
shana echat be veersheva. Khazarti po le Canada lifnei shana. Eize
muzar ledaber ivrit kan, ba atar ha ze! Ad akhshav, haiiti ha
yehudi ha yakhid po... rov a kotvim she meunyanium be mizrakh haTikhon
muslimim mi turkia o iran o dubai ... barukh habaa
------------- "Your country ain't your blood. Remember that." -Santino Corelone |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 11:18
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It's supposed that the main forums must be in English. You can exchange in Hebrew in the http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=20 -
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Svyturys
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 12:55
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I have something against them, because they want that every Europe would sorry them... They want that everyone would say sorry, they called our nation something "who shooting jews"... not directly, but they said that we must feel sorry.. And why we all.. only about 0.6% of lithuanians made bad things to them. Jews don't say that many lithuanians saved them! Yes, many lithuanians let them to have a secret place in them house! And how they say thanks? They was in good places in soviet government, sent many lithuanians to Siberia! Will they say sorry? So i hate holocoust industry! But it don't means that i can't speak with jew. I contacted with very fine girl of Israel on ICQ (Atheist also ------------- Every moment, like last, neither earth, nor sky don't calculate time. Left only one heart in scorched bosom. Throbing only drums again, calling us into battle. |
Posted By: dirtnap
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 00:44
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I don't know any Jews and I have never met an Eskimo either but I know fairness and thats all anyone should need when dealing with those of different faiths and cultures.
Is that not so? |
Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 03:31
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[QUOTE=Halevi] Hi all, As a non-zionist, agnositc-atheist freethinking ethnic jew (enough loaded terms for you?) , i'd love to hear people's opinions on jews and judaism in general (or in specific!) Please feel free to be open and honest. =) Rich and close fisted people. ------------- Anfører |